New Generation Rollingstock

[#Metro]

The idea behind building things in Australia is that because the money is kept "inside Queensland" for Queensland jobs, this provides a boost to the local economy. The workers employed on the project pay income tax in Australia, pay GST on items they purchase using the income they earn in Australia, produce jobs from purchasing materials inside Australia and that money, in turn, cycles through the economy.

Autarky (self-containment of production) is a key component of the closed economy.

It just increases the cost unnecessarily. Increased costs are a cost, not a benefit.

North Korea is the closest country to having this approach to the fullest extent. It is not a jobs an economic paradise by any measure.

But in a train order you can get away with it here and there, especially if there are votes in it.

I think in time, the decision to build the NGRs in India (a country which is not known for its efficiency or engineering prowess) will be seen as 'penny wise, pound foolish'.

Planes, cars, iPads, iPhones, bus chassis, etc are routinely made overseas. It is the train design file that the Queensland Government signed off on I suspect - which was designed in Milton, Brisbane. Might just be the "Queensland Government Effect". Everything it graces turns to ashes. 

Perhaps if the Victorians drew it up - it would not have such problems??

[verbatim9]

Example, Boeing planes are made in USA but the parts come from  all over the world even from Australia. Even if trains were made here most parts would come from overseas. The beauty of free trade for a competitive price for the product.

[Arnz]

Example, Boeing planes are made in USA but the parts come from  all over the world even from Australia. Even if trains were made here most parts would come from overseas. The beauty of free trade for a competitive price for the product.

Airbus may be based in Europe but they also have an American factory to assemble their planes as well.  Theres one other example.

[trail]

In terms of getting these things out on the rails, what timeframe do people envisage it will take to get sufficient drivers trained up once the trains have completed testing?

[dancingmongoose]

This showed up at Central last night

[mufreight]

Transperth was offered rolling-stock built overseas for their latest order and knocked them back in favour units built in this country, in this latest order the shells are being built at Marybrough and they are being fitted out and completed in Sydney but at this stage Marybrough still has the capability to build complete trains.  An ability that needs to be maintained within the country.
The slightly higher price tag is a penalty that we need to live with to retain the skill sets for this age.

[Cazza]

In terms of getting these things out on the rails, what timeframe do people envisage it will take to get sufficient drivers trained up once the trains have completed testing?

https://backontrack.org/docs/qr/rr/ftr8mar17.pdf Pages 8 and 11 have some information

[tazzer9]

Example, Boeing planes are made in USA but the parts come from  all over the world even from Australia. Even if trains were made here most parts would come from overseas. The beauty of free trade for a competitive price for the product.

Boeing and Airbus in the USA is a great example of why you shouldn't force production to a certain nation.   Everyone knows that GE engines are inferior to the rolls royce counterpart but they have certain legal requirements that some of the plane is american made.

[SteelPan]

The "testing" continues.........
..........and continues....................
....................and continues...........................

COMING SOO....ONE DAY [maybe] to QR....The Worlds Most Tested Trains.....EVER!

It began, as a legend, in the late.....1800's [some say earlier] as a dream....to build a test train.....the likes of which no-one, had ever tested before!

and from a humble mere test train......it became a love story.......the love of testing......and testing some more!

"he looked at her new networked driver control panel.......it was simply the most beautiful thing he'd ever seen....the way the controls curved.....the glow of her switchboard lights......he had to steady himself.....what if others saw, or even just sensed his now passionate desire......she would be his......somehow....together, they would test 'til the end of time......"

If you see only one Test Train this Year.....See "QR the NextGen Test Train".......the light shines in the tunnel!

Rated: Really wondering where my scheduled train service is!

[ezekial]

The "testing" continues.........
..........and continues....................
....................and continues...........................

COMING SOO....ONE DAY [maybe] to QR....The Worlds Most Tested Trains.....EVER!

It began, as a legend, in the late.....1800's [some say earlier] as a dream....to build a test train.....the likes of which no-one, had ever tested before!

and from a humble mere test train......it became a love story.......the love of testing......and testing some more!

"he looked at her new networked driver control panel.......it was simply the most beautiful thing he'd ever seen....the way the controls curved.....the glow of her switchboard lights......he had to steady himself.....what if others saw, or even just sensed his now passionate desire......she would be his......somehow....together, they would test 'til the end of time......"

If you see only one Test Train this Year.....See "QR the NextGen Test Train".......the light shines in the tunnel!

Rated: Really wondering where my scheduled train service is!

[#Metro]

Really interesting stuff from WA.

https://www.markmcgowan.com.au/localjobslocalcontent

Manufacturing of Rail Carriages with WA Content

Develop a passenger rail rolling stock manufacturing strategy with guaranteed levels of local content

Work with TAFE to develop courses for apprentices and trainees in the rail rolling stock industry

Imagine if TransPerth implemented this WA autarky policy and that resulted in them cancelling their Queensland train orders purely on the grounds that the trains were manufactured in Queensland.

This is the great paradox of Do-It-Yourself. Works well when one person is doing it, but if everyone does it, everyone loses.

WA is also massively in debt. It will be very interesting to see if this results in a general public servant redundancy program that will also apply to TransPerth trains.



Explainer

WA debt explained: How bad is it and what are the major parties promising to do about it?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-02-09/wa-state-debt-and-plans-to-address-it-explained/8252358

By June 30, WA's NFPS debt is expected to be the equivalent of 82.3 per cent of its revenue for the 2016-17 financial year.

[ozbob]

An interesting look back ... April 2015

Brisbanetimes --> Local employment issues questioned at Qld's massive rail building project

Queensland's largest train building project – the $4.4 billion New Generation Rolling Stock Project - has been accused of favouring imported Indian workers over skilled Australian workers.

A Queensland rail draftsmen with 20 years' experience claim they are being rejected, alleging employees from India are being employed for 12 months after coming to Australia for three weeks training.

The tender for the complex project – to design 75 six-car electric trains, to build the new trains, then build a new maintenance plant at Wulkuraka, and finally maintain the new trains for 30 years – was won by the Bombardier Consortium in January 2014.

Bombardier denies the allegations and says staff from India are coming as observers only and not staying.

Bombardier has bought a new rail construction plant in India, at Savli - where the new trains will be built during 2015-2018 - then shipped back to Queensland and steadily introduced to the Queensland rail network.

Bombardier has two workforces; the first of around 200 at Wulkuraka near Ipswich where the maintenance centre is being built, and then Bombardier's headquarters at Milton where new trains are being designed.

At Wulkuraka about 87 per cent are local employees, Bombardier said on Wednesday.

At Milton the project's mechanical designers and engineer numbers have grown from 64 to "over 200".

However Bombardier could not say how many staff at their Milton office were locals.

Two experienced mechanical design experts question how many of these new design and engineering jobs are being filled by Australians.

They say the proportion of Indian draftsmen have increased to 75 per cent of the design team at Milton.

Brisbane's Luis Ordonez and a second mechanical design expert who asked to stay anonymous say Bombardier brought in Indian draftsmen for three weeks for electronic drafting training, and then appointed them to the design team.

The design specialist – who worked at Bombardier's Milton office for 12 months – said in his time 75 per cent of the people hired were from India and 25 per cent from elsewhere.

"They came from India and were basically being trained on the program that Bombardier use, which is CATIA," the man said.

"They are actually draftsman, but they weren't actually trained on the program. They wanted to teach them the program and then go back to India.

"But they are not only training them, but they are doing the skill work on the train development itself.

"There were quite a few of them; there were at least 75 per cent of them were Indian workers, compared to Australian workers.

"It is not only draftsmen, it is across the board. It's engineers as well.

"The ones that I was working with have been here for at least 12 months."

The man said the people did not go home after finishing their training.

The man said he was astonished that experienced rail design people he knew were not getting interviews.

"I don't know the political side of it, but it was pretty amazing to me that they wouldn't employ these people that had this previous experience."

Luis Ordonez's home office includes certificates of excellence for bus design from Brisbane's Lord Mayor Graham Quirk and from the Institute of Engineers for the Great Southern Express train's design team.

Mr Ordonez said he had designed "the exact same train model" for EDI Rail in Maryborough, producing a three-dimensional model of that new train, "that consisted of 300,000 parts".

"I could have been planted in and modelled my portion of the train, with maybe a refresher course in the software," he said.

"But that would have just been a two-to-three week refresher. I could have just hit the ground running," he said.

He said he became bewildered when he could not get an interview after being asked five separate times by a recruitment firm to apply for a designer's job at the project.

He said at that stage the recruitment firm apologised and said they "had no idea what was going on".

"He said we've been putting forward people with a lot more experience than you and they have been knocked back as well," Mr Ordonez said.

Mr Ordonez said he was told by the recruitment agency they were putting forward "three or four resumes at a time."

"And all of us were getting knocked back," he said.

Mr Ordonez said when people with extensive experience in rail design at the nationwide rail engineering firm United Goninan Limited were rejected, he began complaining to local politicians.

Bombardier's communications director Michael Clark could not on Wednesday afternoon say how many new designers and engineers were Queenslanders, but denied the Indian trainees were staying.

"We deny that, that is certainly not the case," Mr Clark.

Mr Clark said employees were bought over from their Indian plant as "observers".

"There are people coming from India to observe and understand how and what we are designing to build," he said.

"The people that are coming, they are coming to observe what we are doing."

He said production teams from Savli in India had been visiting the Milton office to understand the quality level, the finishings and specifications of the project.

"That is all they are doing," he said.

"They are not staying in Australia. The people that are here are either the local team or visitors that are coming from the greater Bombardier business.

"And they are here to learn what we want them to do.

"They are not coming here on 457 visas and we are not paying them Indian rates of pay."

The Queensland Government's Translink referred all questions to the Bombardier consortium.

A spokesman for Assistant Minister for Immigration and Border Protection, Senator Michaelia Cash, said the issue would be investigated.

"The Government has always made it clear that Australians must always have priority in the labour market to ensure skilled foreign workers act as a supplement to and not a substitute for Australian workers."

"There are a number of incentives inherent in the subclass 457 programme for employers to employ Australians over skilled migrants, such as the genuineness test and the comparatively high costs that are associated with accessing the subclass 457 programme."

The spokesman said a new immigration dob-in line could be used anonymously.

Telephone callers can phone 1800 009 623 or via the Immigration Department's website at https://www.immi.gov.au/Help/Pages/immigration-dob-in-service.aspx

In March 2015 the Senate approved an investigation – moved by Labor and backed by the crossbench senators - into potential misuse of overseas-based workers.

The Government did not back the inquiry saying its own investigations found no proof of overseas workers being used instead of Australians.

[ozbob]

[ozbob]

When will the New Generation Rollingstock trains be in service? #askingforafriend #qldpol
> https://t.co/b3tOt0xDDn@LNPQLD @QLDLabor O_O pic.twitter.com/my8ibgF7gG

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) March 18, 2017

[Stillwater]

They probably don't know, Ozbob.  What's more worrying though is that they don't yet have a management strategy, or plan, in place to work their way out of the mess.  It seems that 'let's just get through today' is the mantra at QR.

[ozbob]

^ NGR is a TMR/TransLink mess.  QR are only the operator ...

[#Metro]

^ NGR is a TMR/TransLink mess.  QR are only the operator ...

Clearly, there needs to be a new public meta-regulator (regulator to regulate the regulator who regulates QR, etc).

Shall we call it the TMR/TransLink Response Unit? TTRU?

They could monitor their performance and make reports to track progress against a 10 point plan...



(* Satire Post)

[ozbob]

NGR 702 at Corinda just now pic.twitter.com/KvK3djKcR6

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) March 20, 2017

Note unit was running UP on the DOWN Main ...

[ozbob]

^

Interesting to note that the publicity pictures had Queensland Rail on them but the units being tested at present do not.

Maybe it is a harbinger of things to come ..   

[ozbob]

Kind of interesting that Bombardier is building lots of trams and VLocity trains in Victoria.  No problems.

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2017/04/ngr-rti-access-denied.html
NGR project - no RTI disclosure releases. Something to hide Mr Scales?

[ozbob]

   sent to all outlets ..

BrizCommuter:
NGR project - no RTI disclosure releases. Something to hide Mr Scales?
> https://t.co/pOt3l6DYh4#qldpol @jackietrad pic.twitter.com/VTG8goVUwm

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) April 5, 2017

[Stillwater]

Thank you, BrizCommuter.  This is an important blog post.

[BrizCommuter]

^ above blog post is being read in all the relevant government departments (according to statcounter).

[ozbob]

^ as it should be.  I have also put your blog up on Facebook.



Footnote:  The RTI issue, and secrecy generally with NGR was mentioned in this morning's interview I just completed with Steve Austin ABC Radio Brisbane too!

[#Metro]

Hello forum members... just when you thought that it could not get worse.... it does. Three staff per train under consideration!

Major flaw of new Queensland trains still not fixed

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/major-flaw-of-new-queensland-trains-still-not-fixed/news-story/8f4e30d69f11d138aa10b61d66691338

EXTRA staff would be placed on every train to fix a major design headache plaguing the Palaszczuk Government's troubled $4.4 billion New Generation Rollingstock project.

It involved shifting from the current two staff per train (driver and guard) to three staff (driver, guard and customer service assistant).

The option would blow out the cost of crewing the new trains and eat into project ­savings.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Major flaw of new Queensland trains still not fixed

EXTRA staff would be placed on every train to fix a major design headache plaguing the Palaszczuk Government's troubled $4.4 billion New Generation Rollingstock project.

The Courier-Mail can reveal the Government is still yet to solve disability access problems created after it bowed to union pressure and ordered its new trains be retrofitted with dedicated guard cabins.

Transport Minister Jackie Trad confirmed a "new operating model" was needed for the train-building project, but was yet to decide on the "right model" and a range of options were being looked at.

Disability access had ­already been sighted as a key problem, holding up the trains hitting the tracks.

Emails released to The Courier-Mail under Right to Information reveal the operating model was under discussion last September.

It involved shifting from the current two staff per train (driver and guard) to three staff (driver, guard and customer service assistant).

The option would blow out the cost of crewing the new trains and eat into project ­savings.

It is understood another ­option would require every railway station to be manned.

The guards problem comes on top of design flaws involving windscreen visibility and braking.

Disability advocate Geoff Trappett will meet Ms Trad next week to discuss the access issue.

He said that Queensland Rail last year proposed hiring up to two customer service agents for each train, however, he has since called for the State Government to reconsider modifying the trains to save money.

The trains were first planned to be driver-operated only, but the Rail Tram & Bus Union successfully lobbied the incoming Palaszczuk Government to secure guard jobs by giving them a dedicated cabin.

It agreed to retrofit the cabins in a move estimated to have cost up to $50,000 a train.

But the configuration of the trains shunted guards to the back, putting them out of reach of disability access points and creating the disability access dilemma.

It is the latest debacle to hit the state's rail network and comes amid criticism of a new Easter timetable, cutting services to every hour in Brisbane and two-hourly for the Sunshine Coast. Passengers who miss bus or rail connecting ­services face even longer commutes as a result.

[ozbob]

I have made a permanent recording of the relevant interviews yesterday with Steve Austin on ABC Radio Brisbane.

First myself on the School holiday/Easter Timetable and NGR, and then Matt Longland DDG-TransLink on the timetable.

7th April 2017

MP3 file 25 MB > http://backontrack.org/docs/media/abcbris7apr17.mp3

For discussion on School holiday/Easter timetable > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=12713.msg190694#msg190694

[SurfRail]

There is absolutely no reason for more than 2 staff.

Having a proper customer service person on board the train would not be unusual, it happens elsewhere.  What normally happens is that person is able to carry out the necessary safeworking from the nearest door.

QR as usual is special and can't find a way to make that work.

[Stillwater]

"The option (three crew) would blow out the cost of crewing the new trains and eat into project ­savings."

Faux cost savings by Newman Government when they ordered the train sets.

Would third crew member be a ticket inspector?  Or maybe a cleaner between station stops?

[red dragin]

Shift guards on every train (not just NGR) to the rear.

Teach the security/ticket enforcement people that roam random trains to do the assisted boarding. Put one on every train.

Reduce fair evasion & vandalism, might go to recovering some of the repair costs for seats, window's etc. Might also encourage a higher usage as less perceived "risk".

We will ultimately end up with on board security anyway, that's the way the world is heading. Let's get in front of the problem before it really occurs, whilst encouraging disability assistance.

[SurfRail]

If we go down that route, we should be getting rid of guards by moving them into driving and CSA positions.

There is no reason for 2 crewpersons, drivers are perfectly capable of carrying out all necessary operations to run the train if there is somebody roaming the train to attend to people in need of assistance.

The RTBU needs to shove it up their backside.

[petey3801]

Highly unlikely to be a longterm thing, just a stopgap until certain retrofits have been complete, particularly on early units.

[tazzer9]

Does the RBTU want to f**** up qld as much as they can. Do they hate qld, but love everywhere else.  Sydney had zero problems with moving to the waratah trains. The guard being at the back shouldn't affect how trains are run at all, at best its just a minor inconvenience.

[wbj]

Perhaps the former Minister responsible for the NGR specification and purchase (Emerson?) can explain how it was all supposed to work.

[wbj]

There is never 1 security person / ticket collector, minimum of 2 and oftern more.  This would be for OH&S reasons.

[petey3801]

Does the RBTU want to f**** up qld as much as they can. Do they hate qld, but love everywhere else.  Sydney had zero problems with moving to the waratah trains. The guard being at the back shouldn't affect how trains are run at all, at best its just a minor inconvenience.

Sydney had a few issues with the Waratah to start with, but the Waratah was designed as a two person crew train, NGR was a DOO design.

[tazzer9]

There is never 1 security person / ticket collector, minimum of 2 and oftern more.  This would be for OH&S reasons.

No way a ticket inspector would roam a train alone.  People who generally get caught without a ticket aren't the most upstanding citizens.

[ozbob]

Did an interview with Nine News at Goodna rail today.  Topics were NGR and Easter timetable.

Should be an item in the news bulletin this evening.  They are interviewing other folk too.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Shift guards on every train (not just NGR) to the rear.

Too many issues with that. Some stations have difficulty with rear boarding and access, many stations have no shelters at the end of the platforms and 3 car trains/rear 3 cars not in use are still operating. Ideally put all NGR on lines with minimal stops ie Gold Coast-Airport and Roma Street-Nambour services. Use additional station staff for stations for example Beenleigh-Varsity Lakes during peak and then rely on an additional 3rd crew member for off peak/stations inbetween where an NGR set happens to be operating which could be provided by a csa. They can signal/communicate to the guard when everything is good to go with any assisted access who would then inturn  inform the driver that the train is in their hands. A similar procedure is already in practice at the innercity stations.