New Generation Rollingstock

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

2nd March 2017

Deputy Premier calls a halt to Newman Govt's $4.4b NGR trains until faults addressed

Greetings,

RAIL Back on Track calls for the Queensland Auditor General and potentially a Commission of Inquiry to investigate the New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) train contracts.

The community is absolutely fed up with the wanton mismanagement of the transport portfolio and the mediocre service delivery. Absolutely fed up we are.

We are being asked to accept a 2-year cut train timetable on top of a train service that was already very infrequent to begin with.

We have a bus network that is not working effectively and was supposed to be fixed four years ago.

We are being asked to accept more delays to Cross River Rail while major political parties play games.

Millions of dollars are being wasted on reviews, investigations and alterations because the job was not done properly in the first place.

$4.4 billion is not exactly ' loose change ' is it?

Is there a reason why Queensland has such a long track record in wrecking large and expensive projects?

The Queensland Auditor General must be called in. A key part of any investigation will be getting a copy of the train design files. This will tell us whether the design was non-compliant to begin with or the design was not adhered to at the factory end.

All public transport related projects, infrastructure management and planning must be removed from the Department of Transport and Main Roads at the earliest opportunity and transferred to a new Public Transport Authority of Queensland (PTQ) - Heavy Rail division.

The Western Australian model works very well. They carry more passengers on the Transperth trains on a smaller network and have more frequent train services than we do here in SEQ.

SEQ is facing transport failure now.

When you think it couldn't get any worse it does! Rail fail on steroids!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Reference: Queensland Audit Office - Audit program --> https://www.qao.qld.gov.au/audits/program

" We welcome suggestions from members of the public about our proposed or any new potential performance audit topics, as well as contributions to performance audits that are currently in progress. When suggesting new topics, or contributing to an open audit, the submissions need to relate to public sector entities or money being spent on public services. Any contribution can be made confidentially and your personal information is protected by the Information Privacy Act 2009. "

[ Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg188711#msg188711 ]

[ozbob]

Media: Qld Audit Office must investigate NGR train fiascohttps://t.co/SooG3nsq5E#qldpol#railfail on steroids@jackietrad @AndrewPowellMP pic.twitter.com/3cvBXrWFwR

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) March 1, 2017

[ozbob]

This train ain't bound for glory, this train. (although at least it wasn't late) #qldrail #brisbane #qldpol pic.twitter.com/Q5MfM3Gcn6

— Andrew Bartlett (@AndrewBartlett) March 1, 2017

[ozbob]

ABC News --> Queensland Rail fiasco: Blame game begins over problems in new trains

Queensland Rail's new trains have started to arrive in Brisbane from their Indian manufacturer, but testing has revealed a plethora of design faults.

Thirteen of the 75 ordered have been delivered over the past year, but the Government has stopped any more coming until the issues are rectified.

On-track testing in Queensland has uncovered problems with braking, air-conditioning, ventilation, sightlines for train drivers, and disability access.

The total cost of the project is $4.4 billion.

Who is to blame for the problems? That depends who you ask.

Newman government ministers

The Newman government ordered the trains from the Bombardier-led consortium called Qtectic in January 2014, saying at the time they were coming in at half the price the previous government paid for rollingstock.

Current Deputy Premier and Transport Minister Jackie Trad said the problems were in the designs that were originally submitted by Bombardier.

"They provided the detailed design [and] based on the tender they won — that work was approved by the Newman government" Ms Trad said.

"Those detailed designs were approved by the Newman government and they signed the contract."

A spokesperson for Newman government ministers Scott Emerson and Tim Nicholls accepted they were ultimately responsible for the project at the time, but said the project changed under Labor.

Labor's transport ministers

Opposition transport spokesman Andrew Powell said the Palaszczuk Government's former and current transport ministers Stirling Hinchliffe and Ms Trad are at fault because modifications were made to the design the LNP had approved.

"They've put guard cubbyhouses back in at the insistence of the union, and that is one of the reasons we're having significant delays," Mr Powell said.

"They've altered those specifications and they've not been open and transparent on whether those changes are what's causing the delay."

The bureaucrats

Opposition Leader Tim Nicholls has also pointed the finger at two bureaucrats who headed up Projects Queensland and the Transport Department at the time the deal was signed.

"We took advice from people like Dave Stewart and Neil Scales, Queensland Rail, the Department of Transport, and made sure we were delivering value for money for Queenslanders," he said.

Mr Stewart is now the director-general of the Department of Premier and Cabinet.

Ms Scales has been the director-general of Transport and is currently the acting chief executive of Queensland Rail.

Ms Trad expressed her confidence in Mr Scales.

"I have confidence [he] is working around the clock to ensure these trains are safe to operate," Ms Trad said.

A spokesperson for the Opposition said the LNP questioned the advice it was given on the design in a number of detailed meetings.

"We wanted to be sure the design recommended by Projects Queensland, DTMR [Department of Transport and Main Roads] and Queensland Rail was the best deal for commuters and taxpayers."

[ozbob]

ABC News --> Will problems with new trains make matters worse for Queensland commuters?

The Queensland Government ordered 75 new trains from a manufacturer in India for a total cost of $4.4 billion, but that order is on hold until a list of problems can be addressed.

They are known as New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) and so far 13 have been delivered, with two more on the way.

But as the NGRs underwent testing in recent months, problems emerged.

This morning, Transport Minister Jackie Trad said even more design problems had been found, meaning the State Government would not accept any more until the problems were fixed.

What's wrong with them?

The design issues include problems with braking systems, air-conditioning, ventilation, and sightlines for train drivers, the Minister said.

While people in wheelchairs can get into the trains, the doors between carriages are not wide enough, which is a problem if someone in a wheelchair wants to use one of the on-board toilets.

How will all of this be fixed?

The State Government said the sightline issue (limiting the driver's view of where to stop at a station) would be fixed by painting new lines of paint on platforms and installing new signs.

The other problems are harder to fix.

Essentially the Government is negotiating with the manufacturers about which of the design issues can be fixed and how much more it will cost.

But Ms Trad indicated it might not be possible to make the doors between carriages wider to fix the disability access issue.

She said people in wheelchairs might need to signal to QR staff if they needed to move between carriages to go to the toilet.

Will it affect your train commute?

Driver shortages mean the network is already running with reduced services.

QR can continue to run services across south-east Queensland with the trains already on the tracks.

But public transport advocate Robert Dow from Rail Back on Track is concerned a delay in getting new trains could eventually make matters worse, especially by the time the Commonwealth Games start next year.

"There won't be enough trains to run and if they start pulling them off all lines to service the Gold Coast line for the Commonwealth Games, what's left?" Mr Dow said.

A Queensland Rail spokesperson said "there is no anticipated impact to training schedules or the timetable at this stage".

Who's to blame?

Labor blames the former Newman government.

Ms Trad said the detailed design of the trains was signed off by the LNP.

"In 2014, Tim Nicholls and Scott Emerson were crowing about the fact they were getting these trains for half price, manufactured in India," she said.

"Everyone knows you get what you pay for."

But Opposition Leader Tim Nicholls pointed the finger at two bureaucrats who now head up the departments of Premier and Cabinet and Transport.

"We took advice from people like Dave Stewart and Neil Scales, Queensland Rail, the Department of Transport, and made sure we were delivering value for money for Queenslanders."

Mr Dow said the Newman government kicked QR out of the design process.

"It's the former Newman government and their agencies, Translink, and Transport and Main Roads, that have botched this project," he said.

So when will these new trains be fixed?

The Transport Department wanted the new trains to be rolling on the network from mid 2017, with the whole fleet running from late 2018.

Ms Trad said there was no deadline on fixing the trains, but she wanted it done as soon as possible without any compromise to safety.

[red dragin]

Regarding wheelchair access between carriages, is it possible to fit down the aisle with 2-2 seating on narrow guage?

That is, inter carriage doorway excluded, could you even get from the front of car 1 to car3/4 through the seats?

Not likely, which is why the carriage with the toilet is all sideways seating (apart from the small section between the doors and the end of the car at the opposite end from the toilet).

Which means it's only one doorway that is any issue. At least the position of the toilet will be predictable.

[SurfRail]

Even on the 160s the toilet car doesn't have an accessible pathway, so I'm not entirely sure that this is really an issue.  The trains simply aren't wide enough to allow that kind of free circulation.

A much more serious issue would be if the toilet module itself isn't properly DDA compliant.

[petey3801]

Exactly, which, to my knowledge, the toilet is DDA compliant. Only so much room available on a narrow gauge train!
As for Wulkuraka, considering it isn't meant to be used as a stabling yard, I wouldn't be surprised if 15 is getting to the max workable capacity.

[Gazza]

I think the issue is that at PWD toilet must be a certain width, so that makes the corridor next to it narrow.
In previous sets there was no need to go past the module because it was always at the end of the set.

I think the corridor would be able to fit a wheelchair through, its just not the ideal width.

[tazzer9]

The the model at the wulkuraka open day is the same dimensions, then getting a wheelchair past the bathroom might be a tight squeeze.  It would be narrow enough that you likely couldn't wheel yourself through.

[HappyTrainGuy]

And, as usual, made out to be much worse by politics and the media than what it really is. Not much room left out at Wulkuraka until the first few units enter service anyway!

Yep, according to one report 15 trains has maxed out the storage at Wulkuraka 

Wulkuraka is a mtce facility only. All trains that will be there are for mtce purposes only. Not a place for stabling trains during peak or over night. Mayne is both a mtce facility and a stabling yard. If you look hard enough sometimes you'll see the red flags we've put on them to not be moved. Once they are accepted they will be stabled anywhere across the QR network. It was mentioned that a stabling yard was considered nearby but that didn't pan out. With the NGR the first half of the order is to boost the rollingstock total before the next half will be the EMU phase out.

[Stillwater]

It would appear that the NGR trains only have a TransLink logo on the front, not a QR logo.  Should anything be read into that?

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=NGR+trains+%2B+images&biw=1486&bih=782&tbm=isch&imgil=BFuxJa7moyi5sM%253A%253BarGO4fQPfJltxM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252Fwiki%25252FNew_Generation_Rollingstock&source=iu&pf=m&fir=BFuxJa7moyi5sM%253A%252CarGO4fQPfJltxM%252C_&usg=__ky9mzbDK1_ThZ7iACYGCLniB6rQ%3D&ved=0ahUKEwjYg_PKlLjSAhXEE5QKHcX5BqIQyjcIMg&ei=jz24WJiANsSn0ATF85uQCg#imgdii=PzZhB6e77vsWcM:&imgrc=BFuxJa7moyi5sM:


We can attribute the following to Donald Rumsfeldt, a former U.S. Secretary of Defence:

"There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that's basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.

"It sounds like a riddle. It isn't a riddle. It is a very serious, important matter. There's another way to phrase that and that is that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something exists does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist. And yet almost always, when we make our threat assessments, when we look at the world, we end up basing it on the first two pieces of that puzzle, rather than all three."

Where is the next disaster within QR, TransLink and TMR?

What do they don't know that they don't know that is going to blow up in their faces?

[ozbob]

^ will just leave this here ...

^ yep, perhaps why it is a bit of a clusterfuk hey?

I asked Queensland Rail a few months ago now whether or not the NGR will have WIFI. 

I was directed rather pointedly to TransLink/TMR with the comment ' they are running this project, any inquiries to them ' or words to that effect.

I got the same response a while back when I asked a question about NGR start of revenue service date. QR want to have nothing to do with it, and I can't blame them-they have had zero ownership of the project.

The basic situation  with the NGR project is that it is a product of TransLink/TMR failure, set up by the Newman Government.

Politics corrupting policy - which is the common denominator for many things in Queensland.

[Stillwater]

A simple and accurate statement, Ozbob: "Politics corrupting policy in Queensland."

If Translink/TMR has been behind the Clusterfuks, overseen by Neil Scales, why is he Jackie Trad's white-haired boy?

[mufreight]

What is needed now is a quick fix for the failings of the NGR trains.
These problems could be rectified at Maryborough far quicker than shipping the trains back to India.
The sighting problems from the drivers cabs, these could be quickly solved by removing the present nose and cab and replacing them with cabs designed for the 160/260 and Transperth B series trains, these cabs are proven and are currently being manufactured for the Transperth B series trains currently being built at Maryborough so there should be no problems in obtaining the nose/cab shells.
The problems with the positioning of the controls could be easily resolved when replacing the nose/cab by going to the control layout of the 160/260 series trains.
The problems with the graduation of the braking is also relatively simple to resolve by replacing the brake controller with the same equipment as is used in the 160/260 series units, this could be done with the replacement of the cabs.
The problems with the disability access in to the toilets again could be resolved by replacing the toilet module with a toilet module the same as that fitted to the 160 series IMU's the problems with disabled access between the third and fourth carriages would be solved at the same time.
The problems with the guards position in the trailing carriage would also be resolved by the replacement of the drivers cab with cabs configured and equipped the same as those on the 160/260 series trains.
These modifications could be applied to those train sets still under construction in India and those sets already landed here could be modified at Maryborough.
The entire process should be taken out of the hands of TMR and placed under the control of Queensland Rail and a Commissioner for Railways.   

[petey3801]

Most of what you have said is just pure BS mufreight.

The units are not being shipped back to India. Any rectifications required are being done at Wulkuraka.
The cabs are designed the way they are in order to comply with the new, stricter Australian safety/crash standards that apply to all new design trains. The cabs on the 160/260s do not meet this standard (they were designed before this standard was applied), so cannot be retrofitted on to the NGRs (which would be a long, long way from being a 'simple fix' anyway). The "sighting issues" are not really a major problem anyway IMO, just something that needs to be gotten used to.
Control positioning in the cab requires a couple of very, very minor tweaks.
Braking "issue" would likely be software related. Tweak until it is right, easy.
Disability access is whinging for the sake of whinging at this point. The toilets are DDA compliant. Putting 160/260 toilets in would actually reduce the width of the corridor next to the toilet, making access worse between carriages. As I said above, if worse comes to worse, wheelchairs can just be loaded in to the toilet carriage at all times, no matter what direction of travel. There is only so much room available on a narrow gauge train.
How would replacing the cabs on either end of the train help any guards issues? The 160/260s have cabs in the middle and are designed as such. They are not designed as a 6car walkthrough cab. And anyway, the guard at the back issues have already been sorted, just need to retrofit the fixes on the earlier units.
All problems and their rectifications are already communicated back to India in order for them to be fixed on new build trains, but at high production rates, it is often not able to be worked in to the trains straight away from new, with the first new build after the communications being the first to get it (ie: There could be several already in various stages of being built on the production line, which [depending on the problem] are already too far advanced to fix the problem on the production line and will instead be retrofitted when complete).

Also, sensationalist style BS, as was in the news report above (ie: Not likely to see NGR before Comm Games and calling for new build 160/260s, despite the fact that the NGRs will be well and truely in service before the first new build 160 rolls out of the factory) does absolutely nothing good for the reputation of this group. I know it has most certainly caused most people who do actually know what they're talking about to dismiss this group and their suggestions.

[HappyTrainGuy]

What the heck have I just read?? Haha. As Petey said this has been blown out of portion because its the flavor of the month. And the shock and horror with the brakes. Heaven forbid should people knew about issues with rollingstock that was found during testing on the SMU260/IMU160 units. And I'm not referring to the AC. For example the acceleration issues that were seriously damaging the trains. Also the new front end changes came about after deep analysis of the fatal TT level crossing and the Vline crossing crash.

[ozbob]

Wouldn't it be good if the authorities actually explained what were the actual problems and the fixes.

It is all cryptic. If you guys know what is going on why isn't it properly communicated?

Might help a lot I would suggest.

I don't blame anyone for raising issues, not at all.  They have tried to get answers.

I don't really care if people think I am off track with a suggestion for more 260s for example.  It is a way of highlighting the problems and perhaps getting the authorities to come clean.  I don't really expect it.

Are you certain NGRs will be running before Commonwealth Games.  Government isn't real sure?

Fair question and comment I reckon. 

[mufreight]

Most of what you have said is just pure BS mufreight.

The units are not being shipped back to India. Any rectifications required are being done at Wulkuraka.
The cabs are designed the way they are in order to comply with the new, stricter Australian safety/crash standards that apply to all new design trains. The cabs on the 160/260s do not meet this standard (they were designed before this standard was applied), so cannot be retrofitted on to the NGRs (which would be a long, long way from being a 'simple fix' anyway). The "sighting issues" are not really a major problem anyway IMO, just something that needs to be gotten used to.
Control positioning in the cab requires a couple of very, very minor tweaks.
Braking "issue" would likely be software related. Tweak until it is right, easy.
Disability access is whinging for the sake of whinging at this point. The toilets are DDA compliant. Putting 160/260 toilets in would actually reduce the width of the corridor next to the toilet, making access worse between carriages. As I said above, if worse comes to worse, wheelchairs can just be loaded in to the toilet carriage at all times, no matter what direction of travel. There is only so much room available on a narrow gauge train.
How would replacing the cabs on either end of the train help any guards issues? The 160/260s have cabs in the middle and are designed as such. They are not designed as a 6car walkthrough cab. And anyway, the guard at the back issues have already been sorted, just need to retrofit the fixes on the earlier units.
All problems and their rectifications are already communicated back to India in order for them to be fixed on new build trains, but at high production rates, it is often not able to be worked in to the trains straight away from new, with the first new build after the communications being the first to get it (ie: There could be several already in various stages of being built on the production line, which [depending on the problem] are already too far advanced to fix the problem on the production line and will instead be retrofitted when complete).

Also, sensationalist style BS, as was in the news report above (ie: Not likely to see NGR before Comm Games and calling for new build 160/260s, despite the fact that the NGRs will be well and truely in service before the first new build 160 rolls out of the factory) does absolutely nothing good for the reputation of this group. I know it has most certainly caused most people who do actually know what they're talking about to dismiss this group and their suggestions.

For starters the facility at Wulkaraka is a maintenance facility and not equipped to carry out some of the remedial work that has or is required hence why 701 has been towed to Maryborough a number of times.
Whatever works are required to enable these sets to accepted into service it is obviously going to be quicker to have the works carried out here rather than ship the trains back to India as one source has suggested.
There has been no suggestion that the NGR sets be reconfigured to put the guard in the centre of the train but QR, TMR and Translink to this time will not advise disability groups as to what will be the procedure.
Guards currently travel in the drivers cabs in the middle of the current 2x3 car train sets.
The cabs on the current Transperth build of trains are the same cab as was used on the previous orders of Transperth B sets and the QR 160/260 train sets so they must meet the current Australian Crash/safety standards or are there different standards applying in WA.
As for the braking equipment sources close to the problem tell that it is an equipment problem and yes they can hopefully rectify it with the existing equipment it would be simpler to revert to the equipment currently in use on the 160/260 seried trains.
As for the problems with the disability access to the toilets being able to get from the third to the fourth carriage is no great problem if all disabled persons travel in the carriage with the toilet, having insufficient room inside the toilet to get from a wheelchair onto the toilet and insufficient room to turn a wheelchair so as to be able to exit the toilet does present a major problem to someone with a disability or who is mobility impaired.
As for when these NGR trains will be accepted to enter service there has been a lot of conjecture but nothing concrete and the government has planed on having a number ogf these trains in service before the games.

[BrizCommuter]

Most of what you have said is just pure BS mufreight.

The units are not being shipped back to India. Any rectifications required are being done at Wulkuraka.
The cabs are designed the way they are in order to comply with the new, stricter Australian safety/crash standards that apply to all new design trains. The cabs on the 160/260s do not meet this standard (they were designed before this standard was applied), so cannot be retrofitted on to the NGRs (which would be a long, long way from being a 'simple fix' anyway). The "sighting issues" are not really a major problem anyway IMO, just something that needs to be gotten used to.
Control positioning in the cab requires a couple of very, very minor tweaks.
Braking "issue" would likely be software related. Tweak until it is right, easy.
Disability access is whinging for the sake of whinging at this point. The toilets are DDA compliant. Putting 160/260 toilets in would actually reduce the width of the corridor next to the toilet, making access worse between carriages. As I said above, if worse comes to worse, wheelchairs can just be loaded in to the toilet carriage at all times, no matter what direction of travel. There is only so much room available on a narrow gauge train.
How would replacing the cabs on either end of the train help any guards issues? The 160/260s have cabs in the middle and are designed as such. They are not designed as a 6car walkthrough cab. And anyway, the guard at the back issues have already been sorted, just need to retrofit the fixes on the earlier units.
All problems and their rectifications are already communicated back to India in order for them to be fixed on new build trains, but at high production rates, it is often not able to be worked in to the trains straight away from new, with the first new build after the communications being the first to get it (ie: There could be several already in various stages of being built on the production line, which [depending on the problem] are already too far advanced to fix the problem on the production line and will instead be retrofitted when complete).

Also, sensationalist style BS, as was in the news report above (ie: Not likely to see NGR before Comm Games and calling for new build 160/260s, despite the fact that the NGRs will be well and truely in service before the first new build 160 rolls out of the factory) does absolutely nothing good for the reputation of this group. I know it has most certainly caused most people who do actually know what they're talking about to dismiss this group and their suggestions.

For starters the facility at Wulkaraka is a maintenance facility and not equipped to carry out some of the remedial work that has or is required hence why 701 has been towed to Maryborough a number of times.
Whatever works are required to enable these sets to accepted into service it is obviously going to be quicker to have the works carried out here rather than ship the trains back to India as one source has suggested.
There has been no suggestion that the NGR sets be reconfigured to put the guard in the centre of the train but QR, TMR and Translink to this time will not advise disability groups as to what will be the procedure.
Guards currently travel in the drivers cabs in the middle of the current 2x3 car train sets.
The cabs on the current Transperth build of trains are the same cab as was used on the previous orders of Transperth B sets and the QR 160/260 train sets so they must meet the current Australian Crash/safety standards or are there different standards applying in WA.
As for the braking equipment sources close to the problem tell that it is an equipment problem and yes they can hopefully rectify it with the existing equipment it would be simpler to revert to the equipment currently in use on the 160/260 seried trains.
As for the problems with the disability access to the toilets being able to get from the third to the fourth carriage is no great problem if all disabled persons travel in the carriage with the toilet, having insufficient room inside the toilet to get from a wheelchair onto the toilet and insufficient room to turn a wheelchair so as to be able to exit the toilet does present a major problem to someone with a disability or who is mobility impaired.
As for when these NGR trains will be accepted to enter service there has been a lot of conjecture but nothing concrete and the government has planed on having a number ogf these trains in service before the games.

The body frame and shell are completely different between the NGR and 160/260s. Retrofitting cabs in a non-option.

[petey3801]

701 was towed to Maryborough for TESTING. It never once went anywhere near the Downer facility. All modifications are bing done at Wulkuraka. They have plenty of facilities to do the required remedial work and already have done plenty of it.
Perth are building new B sets at the old spec because they are an exisiting design. The NGR is a new design, therefore must comply with the new standards. The toilets are DDA compliant. If that's not good enough, then the laws need to change. It's also likely that the final operating procedures with regards to wheelchairs etc are still being finalised,so nothing to tell until they're done.
If anyone seriously believes that it will be 18+ months before they enter service, there is nothing that I can say that will change your mind. If they weren't out and about testing, then I would agree that they might not be out by then, but considering they are out and running around the network testing almost every day tells me that they will be in service long before the Comm Games.

Edit: Also, unfortunately the general public is not interested in specific remedies etc, so the gov doesn't release the detailed info. As far as the general public care, as long as the problems are being fixed, they don't really care for any more detail. Unfortunate for those of us who would like the details, but that's the general way of it in most industries unfortunately.

[James]

From an engineering perspective, there's no way you're going to be able to retrofit a 160/260 cab to the front of an NGR. It is like putting a Mazda 3 engine into a Commodore. You can do it, if you gut the entire car and start from scratch, in which case it isn't really an NGR any more.

I think the disability issue is being blown out of proportion a bit. In a 6-car set (where wheelchair pax ride in the 4th car), what happens when the toilet is in the 3rd car? By design, they must change cars. Sure, it is a minor stuff-up that because there is through-access, through access should be available to wheelchair pax - but it is not the end of the world. Narrow gauge railway no doubt makes this difficult to design in the first place. How often do wheelchair pax need to use the toilet and board in the improper place to access the toilet? Very uncommon in my experience. At least able bodied pax can get through. One of my friends was caught short by an out-of-order toilet on the front 3 cars on a 6 car IMU... never was anybody so glad for a train to stop at Coopers Plains!

I do agree with Bob though - how much longer are we going to have to wait until the NGRs are finally operational? It has been 12 months and things are covered in veils of secrecy. No estimated finishing time for production, no summary of the issues QR is working through. Incredibly frustrating, particularly for poor pax who are spending their Friday afternoon on 3-car sardine cans thanks to #railfail.

[tazzer9]

While the issues are a general over reaction, they are things that simply never should have happened in the first place.   
Heaven forbid the brakes are currently working too well, much rather have brakes that are too good than have the melbourne issue of brakes not working.

We should also be talking about the new features, like the external cctv cameras.  Can this be remotely viewed from an operations centre like at mayne or a police station?

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> New Generation Rollingstock problems raise question of if they should have been made in Queensland

ARE these trains "the equivalent of a lemon", the Transport Minister was asked this week as Queensland's $4.4 billion order of shiny new trains was put on hold.

"If I ordered a car and it came with all these faults, I'd think it was a lemon," the journalist persisted.

While Jackie Trad rejected this description of the New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) – the largest order of trains in the state's history – many Queenslanders might well wonder what else you'd call 13 trains you can't ride.

Coming on the heels of Queensland Rail's timetable debacle that unearthed a crippling lack of drivers – a situation likely to exist for another two years – taxpayers this week learnt of a second "rail fail" chugging towards them in the form of 75 new trains ordered from India.

But figuring out what exactly has gone wrong and who is to blame is no easy journey.

It was the Newman government that announced the Bombardier-led consortium, Qtectic, had won the tender in November 2013.

Two months later, it was revealed the trains would be built in India.

The move ended the long-held practice of ordering Maryborough-made trains from either Downer EDI or Bombardier and was criticised by the Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union as openly shunning Queensland manufacturing.

But then treasurer Tim Nicholls – now the LNP Opposition Leader – and then transport minister Scott Emerson – now shadow treasurer – crowed that the deal would save taxpayers $11 million per train.

"Under this deal we are delivering 75 six-car trains at almost half the price of what the previous Labor government paid for its rolling stock," Nicholls boasted.

"The contract will deliver the new trains over the next five years and maintenance for a 32-year operational period, at a fixed price, so there are no hidden surprises for taxpayers."

But there's been a few surprises for the teams testing the trains at Ipswich's purpose-built Wulkuraka facility.

TransLink revealed in late October that the trains were braking too hard, that drivers couldn't see properly out of their windscreens to the platform markers in order to safely stop, requiring a redesign of the driver's cab which included a repositioning of controls, and that extra space and CCTV screens were needed for guards.

This week, it was revealed problems were still plaguing the trains a year after the first one was delivered and three months after they were originally meant to be ferrying passengers across the southeast.

Trad has also revealed the carriages didn't meet Australian disability standards because the doorways between cars were too narrow for wheelchairs and there were issues with the airconditioning and ventilation systems.

One fix will be to send out workers to every platform at QR's 143 stations to physically move or paint new stopping signals so drivers know when to stop. But there is "no hard deadline" on when all issues will be fixed and Trad has only been able to promise that the trains, costing $13.7 million each, will be in action "as soon as possible".

Pointing out that the contract was signed by the LNP, who'd made a virtue out of saving money on the project, she declared: "You get what you pay for."

Having become "very concerned" about the NGR contract since assuming responsibility for transport again last month, Trad this week ordered a halt to the delivery of trains until all design and engineering issues have been resolved.

And not a cent would be paid until they had passed testing and were running, she said. But she conceded taxpayers would pay extra to fix the problem-plagued fleet. Exactly how much is still being thrashed out with the consortium and will depend on the extent of work needed.

Meanwhile, Nicholls was at pains to point fingers at the bureaucrats he said were actually in charge of the contract when he was in power.

"There are some minor adjustments that need to be done, as is always the case for new gear, but they are the right product to deliver for Queensland," he said. "This is a Labor own goal trying to cover up for their own failures."

A year ago, Emerson was attacking Labor for trying to take credit for the NGR. "We are the ones who signed the contract for it," he told Parliament in February 2016.

In a flourish of politicking on Wednesday, the Opposition gleefully pointed out the times Labor had stuffed up train orders.

Peter Beattie bought trains that didn't fit through tunnels in 2007 and Anna Bligh ordered luxurious new tilt trains without seats.

Understanding this latest rail fail is not as obvious as too-tall trains or missing seats. Rail advocates and The Courier-Mail have had Right to Information requests regarding the contract and testing repeatedly refused.

But, in the end, no one will be able to hide the absence of the spiffy-looking new trains on the tracks in coming months.

Taxpayers are waiting at the station and they don't want to ride in a lemon.

[ozbob]

This ...

" ... Understanding this latest rail fail is not as obvious as too-tall trains or missing seats. Rail advocates and The Courier-Mail have had Right to Information requests regarding the contract and testing repeatedly refused. ... "

just causes angst and makes people wonder what on earth is going on.  There is no surprise then that there may be misinformed beat ups (which worsens the situation) because of the refractory behaviour of the authorities. They are shooting themselves in the feet and head!

Come clean!

[Stillwater]

Talking of own goals re NGR trains, this from Scott Emerson to the Queensland Parliament:

QUOTE: "A year ago, Emerson was attacking Labor for trying to take credit for the NGR. "We are the ones who signed the contract for it," he told Parliament in February 2016."

If he is now saying something different, he could be had up for misleading the Parliament.

Voters will think more of LNP if it owned up to its mistake and backed a solution.  Playing the blame game has them switching allegiance to One Nation.  (A pox on both your houses.)

[#Metro]

Toss them all out, hopeless twits!

#FleeQLD



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Dumbanddumber.jpg

[SurfRail]

Evidently it is OK for ministers from the Blue Team to wash their hands of a project if the bureaucrats say all is OK, but not the other way around!

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

6th March 2017

New Generation Rollingstock - Update please Deputy Premier Trad

Good Morning,

There is much confusion and misinformation concerning the New Generation Rolling stock trains.

The Couriermail in an article published on 4th March 2017 - 
New Generation Rollingstock problems raise question of if they should have been made in Queensland
http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/new-generation-rollingstock-problems-raise-question-of-if-they-should-have-been-made-in-queensland/news-story/9bdb04c398377c96fbb575ecc52cd91e

Made this point: " ... Understanding this latest rail fail is not as obvious as too-tall trains or missing seats. Rail advocates and The Courier-Mail have had Right to Information requests regarding the contract and testing repeatedly refused. ... "

It does appear there is a reluctance by the authorities to spell out what the problems with the trains actually are and when will these trains be in actual revenue service. Hiding behind commercial in confidence etc. does nothing in the end.  Just causes angst and makes people wonder what on earth is going on.  There is no surprise then that there may be misinformed beat ups (which worsens the situation) because of the refractory behaviour of the authorities - they are shooting themselves in the feet and head!

It is encouraging to see NGR trains being tested on the network but still nothing as to when the problems will be resolved and when the new trains will be in revenue service.

Might be time for a detailed explanation Deputy Premier.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Latest: ' New Generation Rollingstock - Update please @jackietrad '
> https://t.co/zmurmkg1nN#qldpol@TMRQld @TransLinkSEQ @N_Scales_TMR pic.twitter.com/oLvMAyY2aW

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) March 5, 2017

[Stillwater]

The politics becomes so twisted at times that the government of the day choses to withhold information that could disgrace the other side of politics until a more opportune time, such as during an election campaign.  Jackie Trad and Scott Emerson are political animals and both see transport as a political plaything, unfortunately.

Each must weigh the public interest and see that it overrides the effectiveness of a political smear, no matter how advantageous that might be at the time.

Parties spout on about the need for transparency in government, but are reluctant to display it in such circumstances.  Having said that, this matter is likely to end up in the courts, with litigation between Bombardier and the State of Queensland (irrespective of which party is in power).

Ms Trad's challenge is to honour an obligation to the people without giving away anything that later might be used in court.  If there is a non-disclosure clause in the contract, the existence of that clause should be revealed.

As it is, the Qld RailFail is undermining the government's credibility (to the glee of the LNP which planted the seeds of this latest debacle).  That is the political reality for Ms Trad and she must deal with it in a way that takes the people with her.

[ozbob]

The ' Metro ' + CRR can be a big plus for Ms Trad et al.  Their initial response confirms that.

They need now to bring the public on board with NGR and rail fail timetable fixes.  Let the mess fester on it will be costly, very!

[#Metro]

Deep within Red Team HQ I am sure someone is plotting something to complain / reject the bi-arctic bus concept.

Just like Trad et al came up with flimsy excuses for blocking the Victoria Bridge conversion to a green bridge.

[ozbob]

Deep within Red Team HQ I am sure someone is plotting something to complain / reject the bi-arctic bus concept.

Just like Trad et al came up with flimsy excuses for blocking the Victoria Bridge conversion to a green bridge.

Strongly disagree.  Ms Trad and Cr Cumming have indicated early support for the bi-artic ' metro ' plan. 
This will go from here, the essential thing is get both CRR and ' metro ' underway now.

[tazzer9]

If the NGR's were built here, nothing would be different.   The Indian built the trains very well to their required specifications.   The problem was the specifications were wrong.   
Just remember the last lot of QR trains built here were built out of gauge.

[mufreight]

And the problem was the housing for the air conditioning unit which was built by a subcontractor.  The housing was modified and the first unit was back out to complete its acceptance trials within a fortnight, how long would it have taken to rectify the problem if the unit had been built overseas.

[#Metro]

Don't think it is worth paying 2x if it is not necessary. Don't buy the local economic development argument either - India has a GDP per capita of $5,350 USD vs Australia at $42,450. They really need the funds & economic development more than we do.

However, the Bendigo factory had a competitive bid for the Melbourne trains. If the difference is not much then other factors might come into play.

[tazzer9]

Don't think it is worth paying 2x if it is not necessary. Don't buy the local economic development argument either - India has a GDP per capita of $5,350 USD vs Australia at $42,450. They really need the funds & economic development more than we do.

However, the Bendigo factory had a competitive bid for the Melbourne trains. If the difference is not much then other factors might come into play.

100% agree.   We in live a very interconnected world.   Of course if an australian company/factory had a competitive bid I would prefer australian built.  But I don't understand the logic of having things built here solely for the purpose of them being built here.   

[SurfRail]

Don't think it is worth paying 2x if it is not necessary. Don't buy the local economic development argument either - India has a GDP per capita of $5,350 USD vs Australia at $42,450. They really need the funds & economic development more than we do.

However, the Bendigo factory had a competitive bid for the Melbourne trains. If the difference is not much then other factors might come into play.

"Competitive" in that there was a local content requirement that nobody else could meet.

[James]

Deep within Red Team HQ I am sure someone is plotting something to complain / reject the bi-arctic bus concept.

Just like Trad et al came up with flimsy excuses for blocking the Victoria Bridge conversion to a green bridge.

This is a bit ridiculous. The reason Trad blocked the conversion was due to fears of losing votes in her own seat, blocking conversion now would just make the situation even worse for her. It won't happen. I think the only thing Red Team are thinking right now is they wish that they lost the last election. #railfail, NGR problems would have all gone on under the LNP's watch instead, burning Newman & Emerson's political careers in the process.

100% agree.   We in live a very interconnected world.   Of course if an australian company/factory had a competitive bid I would prefer australian built.  But I don't understand the logic of having things built here solely for the purpose of them being built here.

The idea behind building things in Australia is that because the money is kept "inside Queensland" for Queensland jobs, this provides a boost to the local economy. The workers employed on the project pay income tax in Australia, pay GST on items they purchase using the income they earn in Australia, produce jobs from purchasing materials inside Australia and that money, in turn, cycles through the economy.

I think in time, the decision to build the NGRs in India (a country which is not known for its efficiency or engineering prowess) will be seen as 'penny wise, pound foolish'.