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Author Topic: New Generation Rollingstock  (Read 187938 times)

Offline #Metro

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« Reply #80 on: April 19, 2010, 08:14:16 PM »
Quote
Its easier to print a decal for no drinks whatsoever without providing a shopping list of exceptions.
Keep things simple.
Quote
Making money? That's not really what the trains are for, they are for providing people with a way to get home.

What about the passengers? Melbourne allows food and drink, they seem to cope. Their trains were clean.
I've seen a lot worse than food wrappers on a train or bus. Today I saw a person using their laptop on the train. Everyone else was just sitting around staring at everyone else bored.

Its always easy to make lots of rules and ban this and ban that. No thought required. It also convenient as no effort is required on the organization's part. Just pack the customers in, close the door and send them off for the next 30 minutes without food, water, toilet and with nothing to occupy themselves. Fine them if they take their bicycle on the train or have a gocard malfunction or don't have a concession card at the time.

No wonder people would rather drive.
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Offline #Metro

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« Reply #81 on: April 19, 2010, 08:19:38 PM »
Something to think about how many doors for a new train- there will be old trains and new trains.
The location of doors in the new trains will need to take this into account.
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Offline dwb

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« Reply #82 on: April 19, 2010, 08:26:46 PM »
I like the no food rule.
Less smell, less mess... and like you said, yes EASY.

Offline nikko

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« Reply #83 on: April 19, 2010, 08:36:13 PM »
Quote
Its easier to print a decal for no drinks whatsoever without providing a shopping list of exceptions.
Keep things simple.
Quote
Making money? That's not really what the trains are for, they are for providing people with a way to get home.

What about the passengers? Melbourne allows food and drink, they seem to cope. Their trains were clean.
I've seen a lot worse than food wrappers on a train or bus. Today I saw a person using their laptop on the train. Everyone else was just sitting around staring at everyone else bored.

Its always easy to make lots of rules and ban this and ban that. No thought required. It also convenient as no effort is required on the organization's part. Just pack the customers in, close the door and send them off for the next 30 minutes without food, water, toilet and with nothing to occupy themselves. Fine them if they take their bicycle on the train or have a gocard malfunction or don't have a concession card at the time.

No wonder people would rather drive.

Surely people can abstain from stuffing their fat mouths for half an hour. If you need to eat to pass the time, you need to go on a diet.
Food and drink has the potential to be messy, people leave rubbish all over the place (mX is bad enough) and not to mention it can smell unpleasant.

Offline mufreight

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« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2010, 07:54:15 AM »
So you wold suggest that diabetics and those with similar problems should get off the train and then wait for the next one if they need to eat because they have a hypo

Offline dwb

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« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2010, 08:30:54 AM »
Diabetics requires active management. In most cases I don't see why a 20min bus/train ride is not "manageable", however I don't think anyone here is suggesting corporal punishment for having a minor snack, just that we don't think eating should be promoted, encouraged. The general rule always has exceptions.

Offline #Metro

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« Reply #86 on: April 20, 2010, 08:37:37 AM »
I think a survey would be warranted.
Should people be allowed to eat and drink on QR Citytrain services?
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Offline nikko

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« Reply #87 on: April 20, 2010, 09:46:05 AM »
So you wold suggest that diabetics and those with similar problems should get off the train and then wait for the next one if they need to eat because they have a hypo

Is this a serious post?!?!

First of all, as I said earlier I'm sure even a diabetic can survive half an hour without food. Secondly, you don't need to eat a three course meal to counter hypoglycemic shock  ::)

Offline O_128

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« Reply #88 on: April 20, 2010, 10:02:56 AM »
I thought melbourne only allows food and drink on its V line services
"Where else but Queensland?"

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« Reply #89 on: April 20, 2010, 10:31:32 AM »
I thought melbourne only allows food and drink on its V line services
I'm not sure, but I can tell you that CityRail allows it on all services, although consumption of alcohol is unsurprisingly not permitted within station precincts.  It's not widely done, but it is annoying at times when you would like to eat/drink something, or grab something from a station vending machine to be unable to in case your train comes before you finish it is quite annoying.

Offline mufreight

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« Reply #90 on: April 20, 2010, 11:33:55 AM »
Nicko, in answer to you question YES

Offline cartel_brisbane

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« Reply #91 on: April 22, 2010, 10:42:47 AM »
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So you wold suggest that diabetics and those with similar problems should get off the train and then wait for the next one if they need to eat because they have a hypo
I've read and heard a lot of old rubbish talked, but that takes the prize for sure.

Quote
Food and drink has the potential to be messy, people leave rubbish all over the place (mX is bad enough) and not to mention it can smell unpleasant.
+1 all the way.

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and with nothing to occupy themselves
So your saying commuters are totally incapable of thinking to themselves, "hey there old chum, I might take a magazine, Ipod, book or hell even MX if I'm desperate!" No, how could they? I'll blame translink/QR/BCC because their are evil/incompetent/won't provide me with entertainment the stingy bastards.

Quote
Its always easy to make lots of rules and ban this and ban that. No thought required. It also convenient as no effort is required on the organization's part. Just pack the customers in, close the door and send them off for the next 30 minutes without food, water, toilet and with nothing to occupy themselves
Unfortunately every QR service can't be contracted to the Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits, and even then you would still complain about this, that there and the other thing.


Offline #Metro

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« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2010, 12:20:22 PM »
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Unfortunately every QR service can't be contracted to the Compagnie Internationale des Wagons-Lits, and even then you would still complain about this, that there and the other thing.

What does all this mean?  ???

I'm sure customers would really dislike this statement.
Inertia in any organisation stifles growth, change and eventually service.
No wonder we have a 1970s timetable.
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Offline cartel_brisbane

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« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2010, 03:04:11 PM »
The point being that a transit system is just that, for transit. It shouldn't be a luxury travel train. GC and NCL services have toilets. There are water fountains and vending machines at most stations and even shops are the larger ones. No one ever got fined for having a bottle of water with them, in fact QR regularly gives out bottled water on the platform from customer service reps. Maybe if some people took the time to think ahead and how long it might take, then this wouldn't be an issue at all.

No one is talking about inertia, or timetabling of services. If you want all these fancy things on a regular basis, fine, you should pay the full economic rate for them. Everyone else who doesn't need these extravagances on their daily commuter run can pay less. A premier class carriage in 1 three unit set with all your fancy "allowances" and "luxuries" might be an idea, only of course if there were wide spread support amongst commuters are who are willing to pay more for it, as they rightly should.

Offline frereOP

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« Reply #94 on: April 24, 2010, 09:07:36 AM »
3 doors per carriage side means less seating and or dedicated facilities (such as bike racks or luggage space) presumable.

Bring back the SX sets. They had reversible seating.

Most "Metro" systems have parallel seating and multiple (3 or even 4) entry doors per car to speed up the time it takes to load and unload passengers. This can be as little as 8 seconds per stop for the Singapore MRT and London tube.  The current 2 x 1 seating format aand 2-entry doors on QR Citytrains is very inefficient for a rapid mass transit system but fine for intercity services.

Offline frereOP

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« Reply #95 on: April 24, 2010, 09:26:50 AM »
http://resources3.news.com.au/images/2009/09/17/1225775/665183-seats.jpg

A similar scheme should be adopted for short, high speed and frequent commuter trips.

Maximize standing room. All flip-down seats along interior sides only. Lots of hand grab-holds. Get as many people onto trains as possible.



HORRIBLE!  Obviously someone who designed this has never travelled on a subway metro.  Imagine trying to get in and out and the lack of leg room for people facing each other if someone was standing in between.  Imagine this as a tube train?  You gotta be joking!  Give me fixed parallel seating all along the wall and NO middle row any day!

Offline Derwan

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« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2010, 12:01:43 PM »
HORRIBLE! 

Yeah.  What do you hold on to if you're standing?

Obviously not a good design for our suburban network.  (Can't think of any network this would be good for!)

I have to say - after riding the SX carriages on the steam train the other day, their method of reversing was quick and simple.  It would be great to be able to make a "4-seater" for a group of more than 2 - or change to a 2-seater so you're not knee-knocking with some stranger.  In this respect I'd support the concept of reversible seating - but it's something we can live without if it would increase costs (initial or ongoing).
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Online ozbob

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« Reply #97 on: April 24, 2010, 12:20:13 PM »


That was a proposed layout for a budget short duration aircraft layout ...
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Offline Derwan

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« Reply #98 on: April 24, 2010, 12:28:17 PM »
I was gonna say the sides look more like an aeroplane!  :P
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Offline frereOP

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« Reply #99 on: April 24, 2010, 04:15:50 PM »
I was gonna say the sides look more like an aeroplane!  :P

Even then its a pretty poor design.  Space per passenger is more than conventional cattle class seating.  Ryanair had a design for standing passengers facing forward in a conventional seating pattern (3 x 3 in a B737-800) but you rested your backside on a cushioned rail with a cushioned back and headrest.  The passenger was strapped in with a 6-point harness.

The only suitable seating for a rapid mass transport system is single lengthwise seating along each wall with standing between them.  Its suitable for travel up to an hour or so (eg London tube Piccadilly line to Heathrow) or Singapore MRT (Red northern loop line).

Offline stephenk

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« Reply #100 on: April 24, 2010, 04:35:31 PM »


That was a proposed layout for a budget short duration aircraft layout ...
...and thus totally pointless for a train which has to carry more passengers per area, and has multiple stops.

Most "Metro" systems have parallel seating and multiple (3 or even 4) entry doors per car to speed up the time it takes to load and unload passengers. This can be as little as 8 seconds per stop for the Singapore MRT and London tube.  The current 2 x 1 seating format aand 2-entry doors on QR Citytrains is very inefficient for a rapid mass transit system but fine for intercity services.

I have only seen 8 second dwells on London Underground at about 5:30am, with no-one boarding or alighting, and the train running late.

Dwell times are typically between 15 and 45 seconds on London Underground, and I have observed similar dwell times in Singapore.
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Offline mufreight

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« Reply #101 on: July 15, 2012, 04:17:28 PM »
What do members think are prerequisites for the new generation rollingstock.
Mu compatibility with existing units,
Should the new sets be indivisable six car sets and your justification for this.
What configuration should these new sets have
Should they be toilet equiped to operate fringe area services eg Gympie, Nambour and Varset Lakes services.
Should they be designed with a view to DOO

Please be practical with your responses and not just a wish list of foam

Offline Gazza

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« Reply #102 on: July 15, 2012, 04:49:29 PM »
-Mu Capability...
Emergency Towing capacity yes, but no need in day to day operation IMO.

-Indivisiable 6 car sets...
I say 3 cars because there will still be demand for 3 car off peak. Also, the mooted 9 car trains are easier with a 9 car set.

-Configuration...
Depends on the usage.
For urban use the whole section between doors should be sideways. Ends as they are now.
For interurban, configure like the current IMUs

-Toilets....
Yes on the ones designated for interurban use.

-DOO....
YES!!!!!!

Also, I'd like to see the return of overhead luggage racks (The older IMUs have them, but the newer ones dont...why?)

Also, put an desto display by each door on the outside of the train rather than just at the ends:


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« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2012, 05:26:49 PM »
Absolutely they should be suitable for DOO.

Transverse seating.

I don't see the need for mu capability or divisibility to 3 cars unless it can be done for no effective price.

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« Reply #104 on: July 15, 2012, 05:51:43 PM »
3 car sets, as not all runs are suitable for a 6 car set, and being able to run a short set or lock off part of the train is advantageous for late evening runs.

DOO capability - yes. I'd take this a step further, and specify that the sets are equipped with ETCS Level 2 "EuroCab" equipment, ready to run over the ETCS Level 2 signalling system being planned for SEQ. We KNOW ETCS Level 2 is coming, so to buy the new sets without the capability built in would be stupid as it would then require an expensive retrofit.

One final consideration - for suburban (as opposed to interurban sets) - 3 doors per carriage for faster loading/unloading?

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« Reply #105 on: July 15, 2012, 05:52:59 PM »
One final consideration - for suburban (as opposed to interurban sets) - 3 doors per carriage for faster loading/unloading?
Agree with that one.

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« Reply #106 on: July 15, 2012, 05:55:56 PM »
Cross River Rail screens would need to be configured for 3 and 2 door sets.  My understanding is that a decision was made to stick to two doors.  The gains on 3' 6" are marginal for 3 doors compared to broader gauges.  For example crush load Melbourne 1500 pax, Brisbane 1000.
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« Reply #107 on: July 15, 2012, 06:05:23 PM »
I'll be blunt about this. For the QR system I think platform screen doors would be a complete w*nk. Brisbane commuters are used to dealing with unscreened platforms, and its not as if we're going to be getting to European Metro or Japanese levels of crush loading.

IMHO platform screen doors for CRR are completely unnecessary gold plating that will just require expensive but otherwise unnecessary equipment, and will unnecessarily restrict future rollingstock designs.

There, I've said it now! :)

Having said that, if you really need them, my employer will happily sell the necessary equipment at a huge mark up, and pocket $millions doing so. My current project involves dealing with platform screen door controllers, and a royal PITA they are too!

Offline Gazza

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« Reply #108 on: July 15, 2012, 06:10:17 PM »
PSDs can be good for fire/smoke controll too though right? They have them on the Jubilee Line for that reason apparently.

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« Reply #109 on: July 15, 2012, 06:11:53 PM »
PSDs can be good for fire/smoke controll too though right? They have them on the Jubilee Line for that reason apparently.

Depends if they are full height or not.  Some European systems (e.g. FGC in Barcelona) don't run the screens all the way to the ceiling.

One real benefit they do give you is suicide prevention.

Offline HappyTrainGuy

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« Reply #110 on: July 15, 2012, 06:44:51 PM »
3 car sets just because of the mtce facilities. If you try to change the bogies on a fixed 6 car set your gonna have a bad time.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 07:01:11 PM by HappyTrainGuy »
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« Reply #111 on: July 15, 2012, 07:00:55 PM »
I'll be blunt about this. For the QR system I think platform screen doors would be a complete w*nk. Brisbane commuters are used to dealing with unscreened platforms, and its not as if we're going to be getting to European Metro or Japanese levels of crush loading.

IMHO platform screen doors for CRR are completely unnecessary gold plating that will just require expensive but otherwise unnecessary equipment, and will unnecessarily restrict future rollingstock designs.

There, I've said it now! :)

Having said that, if you really need them, my employer will happily sell the necessary equipment at a huge mark up, and pocket $millions doing so. My current project involves dealing with platform screen door controllers, and a royal PITA they are too!
Doesn't it pretty much require driverless.

Offline BrizCommuter

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« Reply #112 on: July 15, 2012, 07:12:26 PM »
Cross River Rail screens would need to be configured for 3 and 2 door sets.  My understanding is that a decision was made to stick to two doors.  The gains on 3' 6" are marginal for 3 doors compared to broader gauges.  For example crush load Melbourne 1500 pax, Brisbane 1000.
BrizCommuter would dispute that claim. Many lines in Japan use cape gauge and have 3,4,5,or even up to 6 sets of doors per car side.

Platform edge doors and train door spacing should be designed to allow 2 and 3, or 2 and 4 door per car side. Platform edge doors are also being trialled in Japan that can cope with a variety or door numbers and spacings by using moveable panels.

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« Reply #113 on: July 15, 2012, 07:15:37 PM »
Maybe so Briz but this is Bris .....  don't shoot the messenger ... 
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« Reply #114 on: July 15, 2012, 07:23:49 PM »
I'll be blunt about this. For the QR system I think platform screen doors would be a complete w*nk. Brisbane commuters are used to dealing with unscreened platforms, and its not as if we're going to be getting to European Metro or Japanese levels of crush loading.

IMHO platform screen doors for CRR are completely unnecessary gold plating that will just require expensive but otherwise unnecessary equipment, and will unnecessarily restrict future rollingstock designs.

There, I've said it now! :)

Having said that, if you really need them, my employer will happily sell the necessary equipment at a huge mark up, and pocket $millions doing so. My current project involves dealing with platform screen door controllers, and a royal PITA they are too!
Doesn't it pretty much require driverless.

Can't speak in general, but with the CBTC system I work on it is the ATO that handles the precision stopping required to interface with PSDs.  With auto-drive (either manned ATO or UTO - Unmanned Train Operation), the ATO system deals with stopping in the door zone. For manual operation, the driver has to do a low speed "creep" and then stop when a doors indicator comes up on the DMI, but that is not a preferred mode of operation.

I really think the idea of PSDs on CRR is a bit of a joke.

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« Reply #115 on: July 15, 2012, 07:27:00 PM »
Maybe the PSDs will go as part of ' cost savings ' ... then we can have as many damn doors as possible?   :o

Bring back the Evans Cars ... yeah ...

« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 07:44:10 PM by ozbob »
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« Reply #116 on: July 15, 2012, 07:38:56 PM »
http://www.crossriverrail.qld.gov.au/images/stories/reference_design_overview/parts/Pdf-crr-reference-design-overview-august-2011-stations.pdf

Page 16  Platform screen doors ...
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Offline Gazza

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« Reply #117 on: July 15, 2012, 07:50:43 PM »
3 car sets just because of the mtce facilities. If you try to change the bogies on a fixed 6 car set your gonna have a bad time.
Why cant the passageway between cars 3 & 4 be the point of splitting???

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« Reply #118 on: July 15, 2012, 07:54:27 PM »
3 car sets just because of the mtce facilities. If you try to change the bogies on a fixed 6 car set your gonna have a bad time.
Why cant the passageway between cars 3 & 4 be the point of splitting???
If there is no drivers cab there it is a bit of a problem.

I don't see it as a big deal as there are plenty of divisible sets already in existence.

Offline Gazza

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« Reply #119 on: July 15, 2012, 08:14:10 PM »
Quote
If there is no drivers cab there it is a bit of a problem.
Why? So long as there is a splittable coupler under the gangway it should be right.

How are they splitting ICEs?

 

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