New Generation Rollingstock

[tazzer9]

I personally would rather see guards retained, but getting rid of station staff at all non-city and non-major stations. (keep staff at places like toowong, ipswich, caboolture etc).  Would also like to see guards used more efficiently, such as not travelling with a non-revenue train for 1 hour.   Allow them to be in more of a customer service role, rather than safeworking role.  Also allow them to operate revenue protection roles with SNO's and police on express services.

Would rather have the driver focus on driving, rather than operate a ramp for wheelchairs.

[ozbob]

On Saturday 17th September 2016, NGR 701 had its first weekend testing and it was seen testing between Ipswich and Rosewood. The NGRs are the newest electric train to Queensland Rail's City Train fleet.

[ozbob]

^ nice vid this.  High speed running as well.  We are on the way ...

[petey3801]

Testing is going quite well by what I have been told, which is a very good sign!

[ozbob]

Testing is going quite well by what I have been told, which is a very good sign!

Thanks for that!   

[ozbob]

Understand NGR 701 will be heading up North (Maryborough) for further signalling tests and high speed running testing in the near future.

Will be towed north until tests completed and unit certified.

[Nawfy]

Hi bob, do you know roughly when it will be travelling the sunny coast line? Would be great to go check it out!

[ozbob]

Hi bob, do you know roughly when it will be travelling the sunny coast line? Would be great to go check it out!

Not sure at this stage.  Hopefully someone will give us the nod when it actually occurs.

Welcome to RBoT too!   

[ozbob]

^ sadly we missed it.  The NGR was moved up north a couple of days ago.

  >> https://www.flickr.com/photos/35548263@N03/29940302162/

[BrizCommuter]

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/10/qr-emu-train-caught-perving-on-ngr-train.html
A bit of satire for you all.

[ozbob]

 

BrizCommuter: ' QR EMU Train Caught Perving on NGR Train '
> https://t.co/whyHXrgydc#qldpol
' Naughty elderly EMU train ' O_o pic.twitter.com/19aunO0EPz

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) October 11, 2016

[darthcaligula666]

701 has just arrived back at wulkuraka after testing up north.

[BrizCommuter]

It has taken some time, but BrizCommuter has finally got around to trying to estimate the number of extra NGR trains that need to be ordered now.

http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2016/10/how-many-more-ngr-trains-does-qr-need.html

For continuity in this discussion, the blog post has been copied and pasted below (with a bit less formatting).

Queensland Rail's (QR) New/Next Generation Rollingstock (NGR) will, when taking into account replacing the ageing EMU and ICE trains, result in 27.5 more 6-car units compared to the existing train fleet. BrizCommuter looks at how many more NGR trains may be required on top of the current 75 train order. These includes what is required now to resolve overcrowding, and what will be required by the end of current NGR deliveries in 2018. Patronage growth as a result of the fare review, and newly opened Redcliffe Peninsula Line has been factored in.  Due to the non-public availability of passenger load information and working timetables (which show empty out of service trains), considerable guess work has been required which may decrease accuracy (in either direction).

The only extra infrastructure taken into account is the Coomera to Helensvale duplication. It is claimed in project literature that the Gold Coast peak and counter-peak service will increase by 2 trains per hour (tph), though BrizCommuter debates how this is actually possible given the limited tracks along the Beenleigh Line corridor. A request to the Coomera to Helensvale duplication project team has never been answered. It has been assumed that the extra Gold Coast Line services will prevent any increase in peak frequency to the Beenleigh Line.

It has also been assumed that maximum capacity of the mains tracks (Ipswich, Springfield, Caboolture, Sunshine Coast, and Redcliffe Peninsular Lines) is 20tph (train every 3 minutes), and the maximum capacity of the suburbans tracks (Ferny Grove, Shorncliffe, Airport, Doomben, Cleveland, Gold Coast, and Beenleigh Lines) is 22tph (train every 2.5 minutes, with one 5 minute gap every 30 minutes). Improved counter-peak direction service frequency (e.g. out of the City in the am peak, into the City in the pm peak) has also been evaluated, and as these services run slower than empty trains, the resulting requirement estimate for additional trains has also been factored in.

Additional off-peak services are not relevant to this article, as there are already sufficient trains for considerably enhanced off-peak services. Funding and sufficient train crew are the current restrictions for enhancing off-peak services.

Peak service improvement priorities
Replace 3-car trains with 6-car trains, with priority based on crowding.
Expand pm peak Cleveland Line express pattern services.
Regular (8tph) pm peak frequency on Ferny Grove Line.
Additional peak services based to reduce standees based on crowding (in particular peak of pm peak Ipswich, Springfield, Caboolture, and Redcliffe Peninsula Line services).
Regular (8tph) am and pm peak frequency on Gold Coast Line post-Coomera to Helensvale duplication.
Expand coverage of high-frequency peak services based on crowding.
Expand 15 minute counter-peak service where possible across the network (in particular Ipswich, Springfield, Caboolture, Redcliffe Peninsula Lines).

AM Peak
Estimated that there are 18x3-car trains in service (+/-2) = 8 to 10xNGR trains.
1 extra late am express service on Cleveland Line = 1xNGR trains.
1 extra late am peak service in Ferny Grove Line (filling in 15 minute gap) = 0 to 1xNGR train  (may be formed from existing Bowen Hills terminating service).
1 extra early am peak Northgate to CBD service, improved counter-peak service = 1xNGR train.
No additional am peak Shorncliffe Line services (assumed insufficient track capacity).
3 extra Gold Coast Line am peak services (filling in 15 minute gaps) = 3xNGR trains.
No additional Beenleigh Line services (assumed insufficient track capacity).
No additional Doomben Line services (assumed insufficient track capacity).
2 extra Ipswich Line am peak services (expanding 6 min frequency), 15 min counter-peak = 2xNGR trains.
2 extra Springfield Line am peak services (expanding 6 min frequency), 15 min counter-peak = 3xNGR trains.
1 to 3 extra Caboolture Line am peak services (filling in 12 and 30 minute gaps), 15 min counter-peak = 2 to 4xNGR trains.
No additional Sunshine Coast Line am peak services (assumed insufficient track capacity).
2 extra Redcliffe Peninsula Line am peak services (early expansion of 6 min frequency, later expansion of 12 min frequency), 15 min counter-peak = 3xNGR trains.
2 early am peak Airport Line services (filling in 30 minute gaps) = 2xNGR.
TOTAL = 25 to 30xNGR trains.

PM peak
Estimated that there are 11x3-car trains in service (+/-2) = 5 to 7xNGR trains required.
2 to 4 extra express services on Cleveland Line = 2 to 4xNGR trains required.
3 extra services (filling in 15 minute gaps) on Ferny Grove Line = 3xNGR required.
2 extra CBD to Northgate service (extending combined 7.5 frequency), improved counter peak service = 1xNGR.
No additional Shorncliffe Line services (assumed insufficient track capacity).
3 extra Gold Coast Line pm peak express services (filling in 15 minute gaps), 3 extra Gold Coast Line counter-peak services (filling in 30 minute gaps) = 6xNGR.
No additional Beenleigh Line services (assumed insufficient track capacity).
No additional Doomben Line services (assumed insufficient track capacity).
1 to 3 extra Ipswich Line pm peak services (filling in 12 min gaps), 15 minute counter-peak services (filling in 30 min gaps) = 1 to 3xNGR.
1 to 3 extra Springfield Line pm peak services (filling in 12 min gaps), 15 minute counter-peak = 1 to 3xNGR.
1 to 2 extra Caboolture Line pm peak services (filling in 12 min gaps), 15 minute counter-peak = 2 to 3xNGR.
No additional Sunshine Coast Line am peak services (assumed insufficient track capacity).
1 to 3 extra Redcliffe Peninsula Line pm peak services (filling in 12 min gaps), 15 minute counter-peak = 2 to 4xNGR.
No additional Airport Line services (already every 15 minutes).
TOTAL = 23 to 34xNGR.

Up to 3 more NGR trains may need to be ordered now to manage a more optimal am peak service, and approximately 7 more NGR trains may need to be ordered now to manage a more optimal pm peak service. Given, the recent cancellations due to lack of train crew, it is also critical that sufficient extra train crew are employed and trained to allow the NGR trains to be used to their full potential.

If any more infrastructure projects are planned, or the implementation of ETCS signalling to allow for higher frequencies, then additional NGR trains to the numbers stated will need to be ordered, to allow for implementation into services before the infrastructure opens. The current lack of trains issue that has been ongoing since January 2014, is due to political ineptitude (from both sides of politics) and poor planning, and should never be repeated.

Please discuss...

[SurfRail]

Assuming the 200-series sets are also decommissioned (which seems not entirely unlikely - several are apparently booked out of traffic indefinitely) - how many extras would you estimate on top of the current 75?

I'd also be expecting a need for more outer network stabling.  Kippa-Ring has room for another 5 x 6-cars at the far end, and Banyo has plenty of room for lots more stabling than the current modest little yard being built - especially if they can relocate the current activities out of there to somewhere that isn't as strategically useful to the metropolitan network.  A Ripley extension would no doubt come with extra stabling capacity too, and wouldn't require any more inner city capacity (or drastically more trains than the current Springfield service).

[aldonius]

Well, the 200 series is a total of 36 carriages, yes? So another 6 NGRs to replace 1:1.

[ozbob]

BrizCommuter:
How many more NGR trains does QR need?
> https://t.co/6JQUVMWKS1#qldpol pic.twitter.com/BbX6IiihKW

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) October 18, 2016

[BrizCommuter]

Assuming the 200-series sets are also decommissioned (which seems not entirely unlikely - several are apparently booked out of traffic indefinitely) - how many extras would you estimate on top of the current 75?

I'd also be expecting a need for more outer network stabling.  Kippa-Ring has room for another 5 x 6-cars at the far end, and Banyo has plenty of room for lots more stabling than the current modest little yard being built - especially if they can relocate the current activities out of there to somewhere that isn't as strategically useful to the metropolitan network.  A Ripley extension would no doubt come with extra stabling capacity too, and wouldn't require any more inner city capacity (or drastically more trains than the current Springfield service).

I wasn't aware of the 200-series issues. I'll add an addendum to the blog post.

[tazzer9]

You will need some more stabling before more NGR's are ordered.  A decent sized one at hemmant would be good, along with expansion of redbank.  Maybe something small next to rocklea station and maybe use some of the yard area at doomben for something small.

Once more NGR's come in I would like to see expansion of 15 minute off peak and counter peak services, especially on the cleveland and shorncliffe line. (all the way to shorncliffe and manly).   
Also expansion of"peak" frequency services on all lines. The Cleveland expresses is the big one.  Frequencies returning to 30 minutes for trains reaching central after 8:50am is pathetic.

[SurfRail]

Right - assuming I am reading this correctly, are we saying:

75 NGRs on order
27.5 x 6 car trains available for expansion after replacement of 47.5 6 car trains
Up to 30 required for AM peak (shortfall of 3)
Up to 34 required for PM peak (shortfall of 7)

I understand there is an option for 24 new sets (open to correction).  My view is we should order them all, use them to plug the gaps identified above, and replace more of the fleet to keep the age down and improve reliability. 

If the current order is used to replace all EMUs/ICEs/100s/120s/200s, that would be 60.5 6xcar sets leaving a spare 14.5.  Based on the service improvements flagged above, that would leave a shortfall of 15.5 in the AM and 19.5 in the PM.  Ordering the 24 extras would fill that hole with some breathing room.  Then, the next order of trains can be for around 60 or more to replace the 160s/220s/260s (47 6xcar sets) and add future capacity.

[ozbob]

The original plan was for 100 x 6 car sets.  This got reduced under the Newman Government to 75 x 6 car sets.

I think the original plan for 100 was right hey?

Yes, the options for a further 24 x 6 car should be exercised.

[tazzer9]

I wouldn't be counting on the NGR's replacing the 200 series.  Maybe increase the order up to 100 but no more.  Mainly because we have no idea if they are any good.  We don't want a situation like melbourne with their siemens trains. 

I wouldn't be replacing the IMU100 or 120's anytime soon.  They don't have any serious issue that I am aware of and they are the ideal trains to be kept captive for the  Gympie services, similar to how the ICE's are currently used.

We need more stabling and track upgrades before we can start running heaps more services anyway.  We can only look forward to small peak improvements and medium level off peak improvements before CRR and beerburrum to nambour is completed. 

[petey3801]

By what I have been told, there are options and have been provisions made for 24 more NGRs to be built, just up to the Government to order them! Unsure of the cutoff date for these units, but I would presume it would be late next year (at the very latest) in order to keep the production line going, so we should have enough time to have them settle in to service and see how they go before taking the plunge for another 24. Personally, I don't think they'll have anything more than the regular teething problems, but we shall soon see!

[Arnz]

I wouldn't be expecting the 100/120 IMUs to be replaced anytime soon. 

If anything it'll be likely that the 100/120 IMUs to be kept captive to Brisbane-Gympie North & selected AM Peak & PM Peak Brisbane-Nambour services similar to how the ICEs are used now (although the Roma Street-Nambour & v.v peak period workings would be expected to stop all stations Petrie to Nambour with the higher capacity of the IMUs).

Perhaps some IMU100/120s can be used on Doomben/Cannon Hills/Northgate shortworkings throughout the day before being deployed on the Roma Street-Nambour PM peak runs (as some seem to do now).

Of course the NGR would be working the Nambour to Ipswich & v.v runs throughout the day & weekends as the SMU/IMU hybrids & 6-car IMUs do now.

[ozbob]

I travelled on IMU102 ex Goodna at 10.35am to Ipswich yesterday (was alone too 3 car set only).

[HappyTrainGuy]

I wouldn't be replacing the IMU100 or 120's anytime soon.  They don't have any serious issue that I am aware of and they are the ideal trains to be kept captive for the  Gympie services, similar to how the ICE's are currently used.

2 completely different trains.

[tazzer9]

I wouldn't be replacing the IMU100 or 120's anytime soon.  They don't have any serious issue that I am aware of and they are the ideal trains to be kept captive for the  Gympie services, similar to how the ICE's are currently used.

2 completely different trains.

Are you referring to the the imu's compared to the ICE or between the two class of IMU's (100's vs 120's)?

[HappyTrainGuy]

IMU vs SMU.

[Marshal]

You will need some more stabling before more NGR's are ordered.  A decent sized one at hemmant would be good, along with expansion of redbank.  Maybe something small next to rocklea station and maybe use some of the yard area at doomben for something small.

Once more NGR's come in I would like to see expansion of 15 minute off peak and counter peak services, especially on the cleveland and shorncliffe line. (all the way to shorncliffe and manly).   
Also expansion of"peak" frequency services on all lines. The Cleveland expresses is the big one.  Frequencies returning to 30 minutes for trains reaching central after 8:50am is pathetic.

I don't think there is really functional space for it at Rocklea right now. The yard there is used for stabling a lot of the track maintenance stuff. Its usually filled with tenders of gravel and flat cars full of rails

[tazzer9]

You will need some more stabling before more NGR's are ordered.  A decent sized one at hemmant would be good, along with expansion of redbank.  Maybe something small next to rocklea station and maybe use some of the yard area at doomben for something small.

Once more NGR's come in I would like to see expansion of 15 minute off peak and counter peak services, especially on the cleveland and shorncliffe line. (all the way to shorncliffe and manly).   
Also expansion of"peak" frequency services on all lines. The Cleveland expresses is the big one.  Frequencies returning to 30 minutes for trains reaching central after 8:50am is pathetic.

I don't think there is really functional space for it at Rocklea right now. The yard there is used for stabling a lot of the track maintenance stuff. Its usually filled with tenders of gravel and flat cars full of rails

I was thinking the industrial land to the east of rocklea.   It doesn't look like it sees much use from whoever owns it.   Could fit 3 roads with space for 12 cars each connected at both ends.  Being an Industrial area no one would put up a fight about a few extra horns and some lights that are always one.
Rocklea isn't a bad location because it can easily access the western line via tennyson and the cleveland line. 

[BrizCommuter]

With all of the new NGR sidings and depot, I doubt that stabling is an issue.

[tazzer9]

We have ordered approx 20 trains more than we can currently stable.   The current 4 stabling yard projects just cover the current order but anything more than 75 NGR's won't have a bed to sleep in at night. The stabling is also for being able to run more services, but having a less efficient use of the trains themselves.   Cleveland line will still suffer from a lack of stabling.

[Arnz]

If the NGR order goes beyond 75?

Medium-Term Suggestions:
- What about the area around the old Doboy Station site on the Cleveland Line (Bulimba Creek side nearby the Ingham's factory) for stabling. It would mean constructing an access road to the depot location though.
- As pointed out already, Rocklea on the Beenleigh line
- Expanding Banyo's yard for "Inner-North"
- South of Beerwah (after the overpass) in conjunction with the Beerburrum-Landsborough duplication to extend all weekday off-peak daytime services as half-hourly to Landsborough (hourly to Nambour), with a few Landsborough terminators/starters during peak periods.   The frequency then curtails to hourly to Nambour in the evenings after 6pm and all-day/evening on weekends/public hols. 

[#Metro]

We have ordered approx 20 trains more than we can currently stable.   The current 4 stabling yard projects just cover the current order but anything more than 75 NGR's won't have a bed to sleep in at night. The stabling is also for being able to run more services, but having a less efficient use of the trains themselves.   Cleveland line will still suffer from a lack of stabling.

Surprised to hear this, thought that NGR depot would solve that.

[bretto82]

Wulkuraka is not really for a stable yard only really maintaining the ngr sets they will be stabled there when they start service but only really short term from what I was told from the insider

[SurfRail]

- Room for 5 more at Kippa-Ring (for sector 1)
- Room at Banyo (for sector 2)

Not that hard to fix.

[BrizCommuter]

We have ordered approx 20 trains more than we can currently stable.   The current 4 stabling yard projects just cover the current order but anything more than 75 NGR's won't have a bed to sleep in at night. The stabling is also for being able to run more services, but having a less efficient use of the trains themselves.   Cleveland line will still suffer from a lack of stabling.

Where did you get that figure from?

There has been sufficient stabling for the existing fleet for many years.
There will be 26.5 more NGRs than EMU/ICEs.
QR's stabling upgrade shows:
Banyo   4 x 6-car trains
Elimbah   8 x 6-car trains
Robina   4 x 6-car trains (additional to current capacity)
Woombye   4 x 6-car trains
Kippa-Ring Up to 10 x 6-car trains
That adds up to 30 6-car trains.
Given an overlap of NGR and EMU/ICE units, then it looks like there is sufficient stabling capacity for the current order of NGR. I also haven't even included Wulkuraka in the figures.

[tazzer9]

We have ordered approx 20 trains more than we can currently stable.   The current 4 stabling yard projects just cover the current order but anything more than 75 NGR's won't have a bed to sleep in at night. The stabling is also for being able to run more services, but having a less efficient use of the trains themselves.   Cleveland line will still suffer from a lack of stabling.

Where did you get that figure from?

There has been sufficient stabling for the existing fleet for many years.
There will be 26.5 more NGRs than EMU/ICEs.
QR's stabling upgrade shows:
Banyo   4 x 6-car trains
Elimbah   8 x 6-car trains
Robina   4 x 6-car trains (additional to current capacity)
Woombye   4 x 6-car trains
Kippa-Ring Up to 10 x 6-car trains
That adds up to 30 6-car trains.
Given an overlap of NGR and EMU/ICE units, then it looks like there is sufficient stabling capacity for the current order of NGR. I also haven't even included Wulkuraka in the figures.

Because there are a few documents in which you can go and count the stabling roads and how much they can hold.  This isn't including places like shorncliffe, cleveland, varsity lakes where you can store trains near the station but not in a dedicated yard.

At the moment, we can stable everything we currently have, but we do't have much room to work with.    Hence why redbank yard was built. 
As i said, the 4 stabling yard projects give 20 slots, plus the 10 just opened at kippa ring to make 30. And I don;\'t think we are fully done with the EMU's just yet.  Would like to see the good ones retained and kept either in service or warm storage to so we never have a shortfall again.  Similar to how sydney has kept some s-sets. 

Banyo, elimbah, kippa ring and redbank can all be expanded pretty easily, but it still needs to be done if we order more.   Would prefer they did a decent sized one on the cleveland line and upgraded manly station before expansion of others.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The EMUs are going. And the SMUs are not far behind.

And don't trust the documents available on the web. Most are out of date.

Trains are never stabled at Shorncliffe. Only for peak hour running you might see a crew run it down there. There's no stabling at Cleveland but there is at at Manly.

And also QR already has a list of locations for future stabling yards once the existing yards are fully utilised.

[Gazza]

I never realised SMU 200 unreliability was a thing...How long has this been the case for? They aren't what you'd call very old right?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Depends what part you are looking at. Similar to the emus.