New Generation Rollingstock

[O_128]

A must is definitely scratch resistant windows the cost premium outweighs having to replace windows all the time

[Golliwog]

That is true. Does QR prosecute those who scratch the windows though? They should be able to, they have cameras on all the trains and stations.

[ozbob]

Reminds me of the day I was on SMU278, brand new first day of service for the new unit.  I was chatting to the folks on board and I remarked " Do you like the new train?"  They said. "Is it new?"  "Yes .." I said, "Can't you tell, there are no scratched windows ..."   "Oh ..." was the exclaim ...

[#Metro]

b) I cannot see how putting a drink vending machine on a train could be justified. I see putting a vending machine on train platforms as a better option as the space there is not such a rare commodity.

c) I don't see why you can't put bike racks in the trains in the same location as they have toilets on the IMUs. Not major racks or anything, that way if theres no bikes on your service, passengers can still stand in that space.

d) I think TVs would be an interesting idea, but would be a bit hesitant in putting them in trains. I can only see them being targetted by vandals and being broken in some way.

e) QR has already said that they were going to trial introducing wifi onto the rail network. Haven't heard anything since the initial announcement though. I don't see this as a neccessity, but would definatly be of use.

f) I don't see the need for reversible seating, as has been pointed out here, it's just another thing to get broken.

With regards to vending machines etc they can be big, but perhaps there are slimmer machines that would fit in a train where the toilet would be? This would require some relaxation of the "you can't eat on PT" rules, but I think that eating and drinking on the train is OK in Melbourne...

"Decreases passenger capacity" may be a disadvantage, but then again, how much space does this take up? Possibly the space of 2 people? And it could come at no or low cost as the company selling it could deal with/maintain it. Maybe you could get coffee on the morning commute? I wouldn't mind if it didn't get up- i don't see it as important as bikes on trains. Its all about service- the ferry shows that it can be done. Maybe a trial on selected routes?

Bike racks or hooks would be good. Many light rail and train services over the world have these. QR can plan ahead or hope that a ban keeps the bikes away- but more bikes are coming regardless...

TV- not priority at the moment, but why not screen the morning and evening news at main stations like Central, Toowong and Ipswich on plasma widescreen TVs while passengers wait?

Wifi not so important as strong signal in tunnels etc I think. Most people have smartphones etc and all they need is good signal strength.

Reversible seating- not important to me at all.

[ozbob]

One of the suggestions put forward at the Focus Group on rolling stock design was a clear demarcation in rolling stock for long haul and short haul.  Peak mass transit on the majority of the network, high capacity, minimal seating, 3 doors (metro like if you like).  The longer inter urban, designs with comfort features.  Water, toilets, comfortable seating and other refinements.  VLine do this well.

At the moment it seems at times IMUs and SMUs (or equivalent) are just used as they roll out of the sidings ..

[somebody]

Actually, the can't eat/drink on trains is pretty annoying, and it makes the option of buying something on the platform less attractive.  If they just changed that it would be a pretty good start.  I don't really think we need vending machines on trains though.

[Jon Bryant]

One of the suggestions put forward at the Focus Group on rolling stock design was a clear demarcation in rolling stock for long haul and short haul.  Peak mass transit on the majority of the network, high capacity, minimal seating, 3 doors (metro like if you like).  The longer inter urban, designs with comfort features.  Water, toilets, comfortable seating and other refinements.  VLine do this well.

At the moment it seems at times IMUs and SMUs (or equivalent) are just used as they roll out of the sidings ..

Well put Bob. 

[stephenk]

So where were we. 3 doors per carriage?
4 doors is too many, I don't know how this will work without turning the entire side of the train into doors and having no seats.

Tramtrain, a few weeks ago you were telling us the virtues of metros, and now it has been suggested that we have "metro like" trains running you now saying that there are too many doors.

Maybe you should write to Japan Rail and tell them that there commuter trains with 4 doors/car side (6 on the Yamanote Line) is too many (note they have shorter cars than Brisbane)? Or maybe write a similar letter to Hong Kong MTR who have 5 doors/car side on East and West Rail commuter services?

If we are to increase train capacity and frequency, we need higher internal capacity (more standing), and shorter dwell times. 4 doors/car side will help achieve that. Longer distance trains may still be able to have 2 doors/car side for more seating.

If both 2 and 3/4 door trains are to match up with platform edge doors, then trains with 3 doors/car side will have sub-optimal door spacing. This may be why 4 doors/car side was suggested in the ICRCS-Pre Feasibility Report. Whether Queensland Transport actually take any notice of this suggestion in the ICRCS is another matter.

[ozbob]

Paris Metro 3 door

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoQks4aKSkk&feature=related


Platform edge doors Paris Metro




Shanghai Subway departing People's Square  5 Door

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBu8UiF_AAQ&feature=related


Yokohama municipal subway Blue Line. 3 door

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6gNUVW0_pI&feature=related

[tronixstuff]

Assuming that once the current order of trains is up and the next order of trains are of a new design what are people hoping to see.

1. 3 doors per carriage
2. reversible seating
3. Better PIDs ( showing next few stations etc)

1. 3 doors - yes. Could even retrofit this into older sets - shouldn't be too hard.
2. Fixed is fine. The less moving parts, the longer something lasts.
3. Absolutely. As long as they can display real-time service interruptions. My partner is deaf, and it is difficult for her to ask other passengers what is being announced.
4. No more 'plug doors'... take too long to open
5. Modify one carriage of IMUs  to 2+1 seats, put in a cold drink machine, make sure the toilet works, wireless internet, no standees, lock it off to the rest of the train. Have the ability to book seats via the net (extra seating fee out of gocard account), or if free seats available you touch your gocard on a reader above the seat. I'm sure QR could book this out every weekday on the GC line for regular commuters. Works with JR-East. Or lease out the carriage to a private operator and let them take the risk.
6. A bicycle hook trial, see how that works out.

I will reply to myself instead of various posts. Before doing so, perhaps an explanation of how I see things.

When something with regards to public transport needs improving, I don't use the "this is what we have done, it's working for us, but we need more capacity etc, so we'll do more of the same" theory. I feel the rapid expansion of busways around Brisbane is an example of this. "Buses move people, we have more people, let's get more buses, build special roads for them, get more buses, more buses, remove bus lanes, get more buses etc..." Fair enough, buses have their uses, but not on corridor work (e.g. route 111, 199/CityGlider). My opinion and methodology is to look forward, learn from winners so to speak. For example, transport planners in Brisbane should be thinking "hmmm our population is increasing quickly, more people want to use PT, what are cities in our population demographic and landscape doing in this situation?" "How are they increasing revenue and attractiveness of PT without affecting service standards, or disadvantaging people?"

All very good questions. Now to dissect my last post...
Drink machines - it would take one phone call and a couple of hours in a meeting with Coca-Cola Amatil to make that happen. CCA could pay QR a fixed or revenue-sharing agreement to locate the machines in IMU sets. You can get five-product machines that are around 70 cm wide and less than that deep that can work on narrow-gauge trains; I've used scores of them in Japan.

Wireless internet - the QR proposal was to jury-rig up a few Telstra NextG modems and wifi routers, and share the bandwidth with the real-time camera surveillance. That's a bit flaky. Install "leaky wire" technology (routers on train tx/rx signal with a long wire along the railway line which is one really long aerial). Bandwidth in Japan at ~300km/h is 2MBps, and faster at a slower train speed. Ditto Deutsche-Bahn ICE trains. Run the first line from Varsity Lakes to airport. Charge $5 an hour or $30/month. Watching all those people suffer with their USB broadband dongles in peak is hilarious, I'd bet they'd love a nice solid connection all the way home, and would pay for it. Again, let private enterprise do it.

"premium IMU carriage" - the market is there. Take a poll of peak commuters on the Gold Coast line. Look at all those people tapping away on their computers, trying to get some work done. Professional people would pay a 150~200% to book their own seat, which allows them to relax, concentrate and be productive in the morning or snooze and relax, or take a leak in comfort. You can get a lot of work done in an hour or so. It would also make a great product for inbound airtrain customers. Ditto this for GN/Nambour line.  Again, if QR don't want to take the risk, lease out one carriage to private enterprise, let them take the risk. There is a probability Cityrail in NSW will be doing this with a V-set to see what happens. Crikey, I'd pay the extra everytime just to get some peace and quiet.

All these and many other ideas are not railfan fantasy ideas - they are real, available and being implemented in other, dare I say, more progressive parts of the world.
There are so many things that could be done, frankly we need to look outside of the box that SEQ is in and see what other areas are up to, learn from their mistakes and use their successes. Queensland needs to move out of the 20th century, borrow some money, get some more revenue out of the coal we're selling to China and buying back as things, and get things done. At this point I'll stop as it would involve politics, and perhaps this isn't the forum for that.

Every month after reading International Railway Journal, or returning home from elsewhere, I ponder what could be really done...

[ozbob]

Welcome tronixstuff.  Thanks for your comments, yes it is time to start thinking new.  Even if we are struggling to get something such as a reasonable train frequency, in time it will come.  

[ozbob]

Delhi, old article but interesting reading click --> here!

[#Metro]

Tramtrain, a few weeks ago you were telling us the virtues of metros, and now it has been suggested that we have "metro like" trains running you now saying that there are too many doors.

Maybe you should write to Japan Rail and tell them that there commuter trains with 4 doors/car side (6 on the Yamanote Line) is too many (note they have shorter cars than Brisbane)? Or maybe write a similar letter to Hong Kong MTR who have 5 doors/car side on East and West Rail commuter services?

But there are hardly any seats! This was my issue! Have a look at this (Yamanote Line):




Put this on the Gold Coast Line, Caboolture, Ipswich Line etc = lose election + flood of complaints + commuter uproar.


Rollingstock like this might only be appropriate for a true metro. One that does not go far places and where trips are short.
Maybe in Japan, but not for QR Heavy Rail in Brisbane IMHO.


Just get the genuine, real thing!

[Golliwog]

I agree, you can't try and put a train out for the longer lines that doesnt provide seating. But in saying that, lines like the Ferny Grove line would be ok for it, I think. Although you then have problems with where can the train go after Roma St?

[#Metro]

PS: If you look up above the door, there are two TV screens.

[Emmie]

WHY is having a television seen as a good idea?  They have them on the ferries, and as far as I can tell, nobody watches anything.  It seems like an expensive and unnecessary extra to me - unless they are only used for advertising and announcements, in which case there might be a little money to be made from selling ads.  In any case, I don't want to be dragged out of my little commuter-cocoon by the sound of a TV.

[dwb]

Delhi, old article but interesting reading click --> here!

In the article it says "The system turned an operational profit from the first day. What's more, the Delhi Metro's exceptional green credentials were underscored in January when it became the world's first rail project to be registered by the United Nations under the Clean Development Mechanism.

I think this is the way we need to think about PT here.... operational costs vs fare & other revenue. Not full construction cost + operational cost vs revenue.

Although if anyone knows if TL uses amortisation cost + operational cost vs revenue I'd be glad to know it.

[somebody]

Welcome tronixstuff.  Thanks for your comments, yes it is time to start thinking new.  Even if we are struggling to get something such as a reasonable train frequency, in time it will come.  

Exactly.  We need to get the basics right.

[#Metro]

I think this is the way we need to think about PT here.... operational costs vs fare & other revenue. Not full construction cost + operational cost vs revenue.

I agree. Once the railway or PT infrastructure is built, the costs are pretty much irrecoverable.
See: http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2009/05/ignore-sunk-costs.html

Operations are the ongoing cost, and can be altered, seems more appropriate...

[dwb]

Exactly.  We need to get the basics right.

I would argue information IS a basic. TV screens can help provide information.
Seating and door arrangement are also basics.

But let's think about this from a values-based perspective.

Comfort for one passenger, say a long distance passenger who commutes over an hour (or more) each day, may mean having a chair. For another, say travelling a shorter distance it might mean not watching two trains pass by full. So for one passenger "comfort" means more seats and for another it could just as easily mean less.

Comfort could also include elements of "convenience" and a better understanding of what is going on around them, hence "information.  So for a regular commuter who knows their route and stations and common detours, then information on the fly might not be so important. But for a tourist, a vision/hearing impaired person, someone new to the route or a child, easily understood and relevant information (or the lack of it) may prove a barrier so significant they don't use the service. Therefore LCD equivalent screens may actually prove a basic.

Convenience may mean to one person able to speak to a staff member at a station, for another it might be being able to listen to their music or view timetable information via their iPhone. Therefore, access to wifi or strong 3G signal may be just as important to one customer as a staffed station. Yet my view of the posts on this forum seem to indicate people think the staff member is more important and I don't necessarily agree with that.

[somebody]

Convenience may mean to one person able to speak to a staff member at a station, for another it might be being able to listen to their music or view timetable information via their iPhone. Therefore, access to wifi or strong 3G signal may be just as important to one customer as a staffed station. Yet my view of the posts on this forum seem to indicate people think the staff member is more important and I don't necessarily agree with that.

I would wonder how important staffed stations are with AVVMs now capable of selling tickets with notes and credit cards and Go cards being the norm.  I'd think that even a station such as Milton could possibly become unmanned.  Certainly stations like Auchenflower, Taringa and Chelmer-Sherwood.

[Barbar]

Quote from tronixstuff   "premium IMU carriage" - the market is there.

and

Wireless internet......

I absolutely agree with these wonderful ideas....

I'm sure regular Sunshine Coast commuters would definitely subscribe to a "premium" booked seat service if one was offered on the next gen ICE train......and oh boy do they need replacing....    


 

[ozbob]

Concerning onboard wireless internet ....

From the archives ...

===========================

Minister for Transport
The Honourable Rachel Nolan
12/04/2009

QUEENSLANDERS TO SURF ON THE TRAINS

New wireless technology designed to make Queensland trains safer will enable commuters to surf the web while on the train says Transport Minister Rachel Nolan.

Minister Nolan said new wireless equipment to allow security footage to be streamed in real time to a central point would also create wireless hotspots at stations and on trains.

"This means that commuters will be able to log on to the internet and catch up on emails on their train ride to work or while waiting at a station," she said.

"Access to wireless internet is becoming more and more important in people's professional and social lives and this technology means a journey on the train can become even more attractive to commuters.

"People travelling to work with their laptops will be able to rely on a strong signal which means they can read the paper online, receive and send emails or simply surf their favourite sites.

"We envisage that the technology will be available on every train and every train station in the Citytrain network."

The Transport Minister said the new technology would make Queensland the only state in Australia where commuters could rely on constant wireless access.

"This initiative will put us ahead of the track and provide just one more incentive for people to leave their cars at home, get on the train and get online."

The wireless news follows the announcement yesterday of a plan to crackdown on troublemakers on trains by introducing real-time monitoring of train carriages via security cameras.

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan said the move follows a successful trial of the concept on the Gold Coast line network and the Government intends to go to tender for the new system in July.

"Under this initiative the Government will provide live links from all security cameras on trains to a central control room, allowing police and security personnel to respond rapidly to incidents.

"Staff in the control room will also be able to keep an eye on known trouble spots and crackdown on antisocial behaviour."

The Minister said the Bligh Government was committed to cracking down on criminal and anti-social behaviour on public transport as part of its strategy to make public transport more accessible.

"Currently, there are more than 6 000 security cameras covering trains, stations and car parks on the Citytrain network," she said.

"The cameras on trains are capable of recording illegal activities, giving police the evidence they need to catch and prosecute offenders, but they are not able to be monitored live.

"Now police and security guards will be able to monitor travellers on trains, and any incidents, in real time over a wireless network.

"This will give the control room the capacity to track offenders on trains and at stations, and also to co-ordinate a rapid response by police and transit officers.

==============================================================

[#Metro]

Didn't this initiative evaporate?

Another phantom service to add to the list. This seems to be a bad habit.
Stoke expectations and then move on to the next news item and then (quietly) dump it.

"We are getting light rail!" - oh, we can't. (This happened three times!)

[longboi]

Exactly.  We need to get the basics right.

I would argue information IS a basic. TV screens can help provide information.
Seating and door arrangement are also basics.

Exactly. Those LCD screens display the stop you're at in English and 日本語 as well as route information which is synchronised with the automated announcements. Very handy if you don't know your way around  

[#Metro]

You know where they have those advertising panels with a big TravelTrain poster or the Network map?
A TV could go there, length-ways.

Now, how to stop vandalism... that is another matter.

You could screen the 5pm news on it... mute of course (use ipod or other device to tune in).
QR should have a chat with channel 7 or channel 9!

[dwb]

I think we could be more creative than the news. I for one want time out, not the news shoved down my throat.

[tronixstuff]

Welcome tronixstuff.  Thanks for your comments, yes it is time to start thinking new.  Even if we are struggling to get something such as a reasonable train frequency, in time it will come.  

Thanks ozbob.
Yeah, frequency. Ugh. I've always wondered why the trains that depart Shorncliffe on the weekend run to South Bank; why the heck can't they head further on south or west instead? There must be 6 trains an hour on the weekend roughly that head from Bowen Hills to South Bank. Starting to feel that the Translink strategy to just "try and keep their heads above water". If Anna and Andrew want to create 100000 jobs, get some more train drivers happening and get those trains out on the weekend, Rosewood peak, etc.

[longboi]

I think we could be more creative than the news. I for one want time out, not the news shoved down my throat.

+1

People who want the news will look for it. Those sorts of displays are annoying.

[Derwan]

Didn't this initiative evaporate?

According to the answer to a question raised at a recent CRG meeting, the announcement regarding wireless internet should never have been made.  It was something they were investigating the feasability of, and they found that it's not feasable.

I think that's fair enough.  It's something that might've been nice to consider a few years ago - but these days we have 3G wireless internet.  The telcos (particularly Optus) need to get their act together and ensure coverage along every rail line.  It shouldn't be up to QR to provide this service when it is already available.  There are more important things to spend the money on.

[Golliwog]

...but have they found another way to monitor the cameras on trains in real time? I don't think monitoring in real time is 100% neccessary, but having the abiliity to respond to those vandalising trains when it happens would be great. Perhaps we wouldn't need to replace broken seats or scratched windows at all?

[Derwan]

...but have they found another way to monitor the cameras on trains in real time?

I don't know the answer to this.  Perhaps they were referring to providing internet access to passengers only - and the wireless technology would still be used internally for cameras and what-not.

At the most recent CRG, they mentioned that only the latest 26x and 16x series trains had wireless.  They can download the "black box" information as the train arrives at the depot without having to take it into the workshop and "plug it in".  This may have been another factor in the whole internet thing.  It may only be the latest trains that will have back-to-base camera monitoring - at least until older units are retrofitted.  And of course they can't really say they offer wireless internet if it's only available on some trains.

It's a different story when it comes to security.  Saying that trains have the technology for back-to-base camera monitoring doesn't have to mean that EVERY train has it.  (Saying that they have acts as a deterent in itself.)  It's like the current cameras.  As I understand, only SMU's and IMU's have the screens that the guard can monitor.  EMU's don't.  (But all record - with varying length and quality.)

[stephenk]

Tramtrain, a few weeks ago you were telling us the virtues of metros, and now it has been suggested that we have "metro like" trains running you now saying that there are too many doors.

Maybe you should write to Japan Rail and tell them that there commuter trains with 4 doors/car side (6 on the Yamanote Line) is too many (note they have shorter cars than Brisbane)? Or maybe write a similar letter to Hong Kong MTR who have 5 doors/car side on East and West Rail commuter services?

But there are hardly any seats! This was my issue! Have a look at this (Yamanote Line):




Put this on the Gold Coast Line, Caboolture, Ipswich Line etc = lose election + flood of complaints + commuter uproar.


Rollingstock like this might only be appropriate for a true metro. One that does not go far places and where trips are short.
Maybe in Japan, but not for QR Heavy Rail in Brisbane IMHO.

Tramtrain, instead of having a panic and scaremongering with a photo of a 20m car with 6 doors/car side and seats raised, how about posting a photo of 23m cars with 4doors/car side and seats, which is what we are more likely to end up with in Brisbane such as:
http://ufies.org/~aleith/transit/singapore/mrt_nel_71025-2.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:R68_Interior.jpeg

[somebody]

No longitudonal seating.

[#Metro]

I don't like it.

[ButFli]

And the CityCat's most popular, busy day? Sunday afternoons!

Which should tell you that the CityCat is great as a leisure-craft but isn't really a serious form of commuter transport. That's probably why the things you list work well on a CityCat but would not work well on a train.

I find it funny that people are suggesting putting drink machines inside trains. Are these the same people that complain when the seats aren't clean because something has been spilled on them? There is a rule against drinks on trains for a reason.

[Golliwog]

I've always found the no drinks what so ever rule a bit strict. IMO, you really only get problems with drinks you can't keep sealed once open (ie: cans and maccas drinks) where as bottled drinks are fine. Provided of course you keep the lid on when your not drinking it.

[cartel_brisbane]

Its easier to print a decal for no drinks whatsoever without providing a shopping list of exceptions.

Keep things simple.

[Golliwog]

I'm pretty sure one of the PT networks I was on it Europe allowed some drinks. They just had a sign saying "Lidded drinks only" or something simple like that. But the point still remains however, that drink machines have no place on the trains itself. Platforms, go for it, but given how crowded our trains are now I don't see how reducing space for a drinks machine can be justified. Making money? Thats not really what the trains are for, they are for providing people with a way to get home.

[stephenk]

No longitudonal seating.

Apart from maybe around door areas, I think that 2+1 seating and double width gangways would have a higher (realistic) total capacity than 2+2 seating or longitudinal seating on QR's narrowish trains. Obviously, there would have to be sufficient horizontal and vertical rails for standees to hold onto.