New Generation Rollingstock

[verbatim9]

I don't have a problem with Downer doing the manufacturing. They seem perfectly competent at their job, and I have confidence they'll be able to deliver a modern spec. I'm happy to keep the jobs local and I'm fairly sure that's a general consensus among most of the populus too

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^^Timh there has been no surveys done to support consensus of local train manufacturing and the associated costs of doing so.

I think Timh was pointing out his own personal point of view, not the community point of view.

Why did he.mention general consensus then? Surely he could.of stated in "my own opinion" I am sure if you put it to the public of the associate costs of manufacturing.trains and the subsidies it would require. The outcome would be to the contrary of a few members view points on in this thread

[STB]

Frankly overall, local manufacturing, while it may be more expensive, there's more to it when you are looking at value for money, given that it's a boost for the local economy which then helps on a more state and national level too with taxes coming in, you're less likely to have issues pop up given the local knowledge, and people in the past have not really approved of offshoring which simply takes jobs away impacting the economy which is then a negative for all.

Personally, I think it's money well spent if it's done locally, at least you know that it's keeping people in work, and in Maryborough, that's essentially the lifeblood for the town, and that it can be delivered more efficiently without having to ship it in from overseas.  If there are issues, then unless the overseas manufacturer has located sources nearby, then you know in your mind that it can be fixed pretty quickly given that locals built it.  Melbourne has done it for yonks with their tram network.

I think Downer certainly can compete in a global world and deliver decent trains, just as any other local manufacturer.

[STB]

I don't have a problem with Downer doing the manufacturing. They seem perfectly competent at their job, and I have confidence they'll be able to deliver a modern spec. I'm happy to keep the jobs local and I'm fairly sure that's a general consensus among most of the populus too

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

^^Timh there has been no surveys done to support consensus of local train manufacturing and the associated costs of doing so.

I think Timh was pointing out his own personal point of view, not the community point of view.

Why did he.mention general consensus then? Surely he could.of stated in "my own opinion" I am sure if you put it to the public of the associate costs of manufacturing.trains and the subsidies it would require. The outcome would be to the contrary of a few members view points on in this thread

He was using the term 'I' a lot, meaning he was pointing out his own personal view and what he thinks the community thinks.

[verbatim9]

At the end of the day this thread should be how to provide cheap affordable Public transport network wide. Not about creating jobs for the overall community even though Public transport does help maintain and create jobs as a side kick. It shouldn't matter where trains, trams and buses are bought from as long as it's not a burden on the budget and doesn't hinder expansion of Public transport services.

[STB]

At the end of the day this thread should be how to provide cheap affordable Public transport network wide. Not about creating jobs for the overall community even though Public transport does help maintain and create jobs as a side kick. It shouldn't matter where trains, trams and buses are bought from as long as it's not a burden on the budget and doesn't hinder expansion of Public transport services.

There's way more to it that can provide cheap public transport, geography, population density etc.  Not sure how it's related directly to train manufacturing.

[James]

As much as everyone wants to have and believe that train manufacturing is viable.in Australia. It won't happen until an International company pumps millions into a semi or fully autonomous facility to bypass most of the labour costs involved The facility would also need to make trains for other jurisdictions in the world for export to remain viable. Same goes with other manufacturing in Australia.

A good model is the Bne Metro project where metro vehicles are made predominately overseas with an internal fitout to suit done here locally. That's economically responsible.

It's also been well publicised that they way forward for Australia's manufacturing sector is to provide small components for larger autonomous manufacturing overseas. This will  provide sustained growth in the manufacturing sector. Large scale affordable autonomous manufacturing may come to Australia in the future, but I can't see it happening right now.

It's great that some people around Maryborough have had the opportunity to learn new skills with the temporary jobs of fitting out the trains. These jobs are likely to be temporary but it does give the opportunity for the these people to broaden their horizons to look elsewhere for work and advance their careers when the time comes.

Maryborough may well become a fitout facility for trains that are manufactured overseas but there are no guarantees.

I think you are overexaggerating the costs of manufacturing in Australia. Yes you can pay the workers peanuts, but because the workers are often less skilled, they take longer to do the same job, meaning the savings are not as much as expected in many cases.

The reason the Metro vehicles are being procured overseas is because the only manufacturers of bi/tri-articulated electric vehicles are overseas. Local manufacturers are only beginning to experiment with electric vehicles. This is not relevant in Queensland as Downer has (is?) continuing to manufacture trains very similar to the ones QR is operating.

Finally, and most critically, in the current environment, political realities increasingly govern political decisions. I am of the view that many of the issues with the trains were probably caused by poor design (most notably, both the non-DDA compliant toilet and guards at the rear) rather than construction, as if it was during construction Bombardier would be paying for the repairs, but there are benefits to the Queensland economy by having construction of trains occur in local communities.

Whether this is worth the premium the government will pay for manufacturing in Queensland vs. India, it is up to the government of the day. I think simply saying "ooh goodie we saved $2.2bn" has been short-sighted given the corners cut with the NGRs, but time will tell. On the flip side, I don't think it is appropriate to simply assume that because something is built in India it is going to be unfit for purpose.

[verbatim9]

At the end of the day this thread should be how to provide cheap affordable Public transport network wide. Not about creating jobs for the overall community even though Public transport does help maintain and create jobs as a side kick. It shouldn't matter where trains, trams and buses are bought from as long as it's not a burden on the budget and doesn't hinder expansion of Public transport services.

There's way more to it that can provide cheap public transport, geography, population density etc.  Not sure how it's related directly to train manufacturing.

Not when millions extra need to be spent on train manufacturing unnecessarily. Where those millions could be spent on new buses throughout the State and provide services where there are currently none.

[STB]

At the end of the day this thread should be how to provide cheap affordable Public transport network wide. Not about creating jobs for the overall community even though Public transport does help maintain and create jobs as a side kick. It shouldn't matter where trains, trams and buses are bought from as long as it's not a burden on the budget and doesn't hinder expansion of Public transport services.

There's way more to it that can provide cheap public transport, geography, population density etc.  Not sure how it's related directly to train manufacturing.

Not when millions extra need to be spent on train manufacturing unnecessarily. Where those millions could be spent on new buses throughout the State and provide services where there is currently none.

Planners generally look at things like population density, existing traffic patterns, existing patronage on nearby routes etc to work out how much of they budget they will ask for from Treasury.  It's not really a case of throwing buses willy nilly all over the place and ordering Planners to schedule them in.

[STB]

I say again, saving money doesn't necessarily mean value for money, sure you might be able to save a few mil by tendering it overseas, but on a local level, that can hurt, there's positives and negatives for overseas vs local.

[verbatim9]

At the end of the day this thread should be how to provide cheap affordable Public transport network wide. Not about creating jobs for the overall community even though Public transport does help maintain and create jobs as a side kick. It shouldn't matter where trains, trams and buses are bought from as long as it's not a burden on the budget and doesn't hinder expansion of Public transport services.

There's way more to it that can provide cheap public transport, geography, population density etc.  Not sure how it's related directly to train manufacturing.

Not when millions extra need to be spent on train manufacturing unnecessarily. Where those millions could be spent on new buses throughout the State and provide services where there is currently none.

Planners generally look at things like population density, existing traffic patterns, existing patronage on nearby routes etc to work out how much of they budget they will ask for from Treasury.  It's not really a case of throwing buses willy nilly all over the place and ordering Planners to schedule them in.

I know that but where they want to provide services they can't. I received an email back regarding extending services to Cairns Airport. They replied due to budget constraints they are unable to do it at this stage.

I have provided alot of points and evidence to support the points and benefits  of competitive tendering and international manufacturing.  Without the need to delve in planning issues.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Remember Walkers originally pulled out of the NGR contract because of the rollingstock time line, the limitations imposed by local council, the limitations of their facility/output/current/stowing areas and access to the QR network. At the time they also got Aurizon's contracts for the QR fleet refurbishment, QR fleet repairs and Perth's rollingstock manufacture so they are good for a very long time. They even at first refused the contract to modify the NGRs until the State Government gave them some extra money on top of the contract to upgrade their facilities.

Also remember to shunt out of the main facility you need to shunt west along Kent street. Shunt back east along Kent street. Shunt west again along kent street before proceeding along past the wharf and back into the Maryborough yards. And the shunt roads aren't that long.

[#Metro]

Finally, and most critically, in the current environment, political realities increasingly govern political decisions. I am of the view that many of the issues with the trains were probably caused by poor design (most notably, both the non-DDA compliant toilet and guards at the rear) rather than construction, as if it was during construction Bombardier would be paying for the repairs, but there are benefits to the Queensland economy by having construction of trains occur in local communities.

Jobs created this way generally are an economic cost not a benefit. E.g. If twice as much time, money, or resources are used to create the same product than otherwise, that is a cost not a benefit.

Example. If a train cost $10 million to get, but now we pay $20 million for the same train (but made in QLD) that is a cost of +10 million.

That's +10 million taken from elsewhere in the economy/budget not available for the QLD Gov't to spend.

So it is a redistribution of funds in the economy/government balance sheet not some boost to the QLD economy.

The areas were these manufacturing facilities are generally in higher unemployment areas. It is a political and social, not an economic motivation to have schemes like this.

But "buying local" conflicts with basic economic principles. Two hundred years ago David Ricardo presented the theory of comparative advantage. He demonstrated that relative costs, not absolute costs, determine the efficient allocation of resources.

While "buy local" may raise the profits of local producers however, it decreases welfare of other regions. Similarly, if all regions "buy local," then all regions are hurt because of the absence of trade. The benefits of specialization disappear. In other words, a region should produce what it is relatively good at producing and then trade with others.

Does "buying local" help communities or conflict with basic economics?
https://blog.oup.com/2017/07/buying-local-communities-economics/

[techblitz]

https://thenewdaily.com.au/finance/finance-news/2020/01/06/manufacturing-jobs-australia/

Australia has possibly lost the race already, we had no strategic plan for industries technical migration when government killed the car industry. When you loose the knowledge and experience of the technicians who build and operate complex machining centres and destroy TAFE centres you murder manufacturing capability. Capability is basic knowledge, much of which is passed directly between people, with experience in its application. RIP Manufacturing.

What's new, the LNP have never backed Manufacturing in Australia, they dont want a "Clever Country" they want a "Quiet" one. The LNP have always been a party of we'll get by with agriculture and mining, it doesn't matter if it destroys our natural environment. Australia have had many chances to become an advanced manufacturing nation from discoveries by CSIRO and University research. It is never funded here, the patents just sold overseas for us to buy back the product at inflated prices.

This was sad to read. We are so full of ourselves that our country is so great, but Govt policies are shooting ourselves in the foot and it's our kids that will suffer...it ain't going to be great for long at this rate

[Gazza]

At the end of the day this thread should be how to provide cheap affordable Public transport network wide. Not about creating jobs for the overall community even though Public transport does help maintain and create jobs as a side kick. It shouldn't matter where trains, trams and buses are bought from as long as it's not a burden on the budget and doesn't hinder expansion of Public transport services.

There's way more to it that can provide cheap public transport, geography, population density etc.  Not sure how it's related directly to train manufacturing.

Not when millions extra need to be spent on train manufacturing unnecessarily. Where those millions could be spent on new buses throughout the State and provide services where there is currently none.

Planners generally look at things like population density, existing traffic patterns, existing patronage on nearby routes etc to work out how much of they budget they will ask for from Treasury.  It's not really a case of throwing buses willy nilly all over the place and ordering Planners to schedule them in.

I know that but where they want to provide services they can't. I received an email back regarding extending services to Cairns Airport. They replied due to budget constraints they are unable to do it at this stage.

I have provided alot of points and evidence to support the points and benefits  of competitive tendering and international manufacturing.  Without the need to delve in planning issues.

Recurrent expenditure is a different pot of money to capital expenditure.

Verbatim9, why is the federal coalition building submarines in Adelaide when it was cheaper to import from France?

[verbatim9]

At the end of the day this thread should be how to provide cheap affordable Public transport network wide. Not about creating jobs for the overall community even though Public transport does help maintain and create jobs as a side kick. It shouldn't matter where trains, trams and buses are bought from as long as it's not a burden on the budget and doesn't hinder expansion of Public transport services.

There's way more to it that can provide cheap public transport, geography, population density etc.  Not sure how it's related directly to train manufacturing.

Not when millions extra need to be spent on train manufacturing unnecessarily. Where those millions could be spent on new buses throughout the State and provide services where there is currently none.

Planners generally look at things like population density, existing traffic patterns, existing patronage on nearby routes etc to work out how much of they budget they will ask for from Treasury.  It's not really a case of throwing buses willy nilly all over the place and ordering Planners to schedule them in.

I know that but where they want to provide services they can't. I received an email back regarding extending services to Cairns Airport. They replied due to budget constraints they are unable to do it at this stage.

I have provided alot of points and evidence to support the points and benefits  of competitive tendering and international manufacturing.  Without the need to delve in planning issues.

Recurrent expenditure is a different pot of money to capital expenditure.

Verbatim9, why is the federal coalition building submarines in Adelaide when it was cheaper to import from France?

^^Purely political at the time

[Gazza]

Yeah, but it was many orders of magnitude more expensive than building trains here isn't it?

[verbatim9]

Yeah, but it was many orders of magnitude more expensive than building trains here isn't it?

The State Government in SA orders their Trains and Trams from overseas as a result from competitive tendering. The Federal Government submarine tender was also a competitive tender at the time. The Japanese also bidded for the project. It was politically sensitive due to security issues also. Hence the French builder was picked. There were also other issues like pressure from the Labor State Government to help migrate some skilled workers from the GM plant over to submarine building. Plus Defence spending is a whole different kettle of fish compared general civil engineering expenditure.

[Gazza]

The State Government in SA orders their Trains and Trams from overseas as a result from competitive tendering.

The trains were built in Dandenong

[verbatim9]

The State Government in SA orders their Trains and Trams from overseas as a result from competitive tendering.

The trains were built in Dandenong

It's still different it went through a competitive tendering process. Bombardier utilises other facilities around the world to minimise huge manufacturing costs in Australia. A lot of components were imported not manufactured here. The Government here in Qld is giving false promise to award a single contractor a major train manufacturing deal in the future. If you don't believe in international tendering then so be it. But the overall community sentiment is value and quality for tax payer money. Not creating jobs in a marginal electorate or for political gain.

[Gazza]

But the overall community sentiment is value and quality for tax payer money.

But its not that much more to build trains here they are still good value.

[verbatim9]

But the overall community sentiment is value and quality for tax payer money.

But its not that much more to build trains here they are still good value.

Not when it costs millions extra and the State is in debt and there are no ongoing jobs after the delivery of trains. Like I said prior "A facility would need ongoing world wide contracts for new builds and have to become semi or fully automated to become viable. (This is widely known).

[JimmyP]

It's nowhere near as black and white as you're thinking it is. From my sources, by the time the NGRs were shipped across from India, the cost of them vs Aus manufacture (or, in reality, assembly) was much of a much. The main issue is that the Australian plants couldn't get the trains manufactured fast enough for the contract stipulations.

[City Designer]

Taxes dollars have nothing to do with it. It is about the capacity to deliver things using real resources including materials and labour. There is no such thing as a taxpayer dollar. Our unit of account is the Australian Dollar.

[verbatim9]

Taxes dollars have nothing to do with it. It is about the capacity to deliver things using real resources including materials and labour. There is no such thing as a taxpayer dollar. Our unit of account is the Australian Dollar.

Thats a technicality and protecting the status quo. Move on.

[City Designer]

Quite the opposite. Assessing a project based on an understanding of real constraints enables informed decision making. False scarsity is a handbrake on decision making and achieves nothing.

The efficient delivery of infrastructure requires an understanding that real resouces are limited (concrete and bitumen have considerable embodied energy and are non-renewable) and maintenance can become a long term burden as the resources become more scarse over time. Once of the ways available to improve the efficiency of infrastructure is to extend the design life.

For example a concrete footpath might have a design life of 20 years. If the design life is extended to 40 years you get double the benefit over the lifetime of the infrastructure (a factor 2 gain).

We cannot change that infrastructure has considerable embodied energy, but we can extend the life of that infrastructure.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/MarkBaileyMP/status/1191537075285188609

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1217884681229590528

[Gazza]

Move on.

Lol guess your mind is made up then on the issue.

[tazzer9]

On a gold coast bound NGR that had a failure of some kind.  Coasting downhill from just before Bethania to just north of holmview.  Air con and lights cut out for a decent amount of time.  But I noticed that an internal door closed and opened. Just as it all started.The intercarriage doors do work. 

[ozbob]

NGR 718 platform clearance testing Sunshine Coast Line

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesmp/49432336131

[verbatim9]

NGR 718 platform clearance testing Sunshine Coast Line

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesmp/49432336131

Good to see.  The proposed launch and new timetable in March is becoming a reality

[ozbob]

Rail Express --> Final train in NGR fleet enters service

The final New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) train has now entered service for the Queensland government.

The 75th train, manufactured by Bombardier, will be used by the Queensland government to provide services to the growing South-East Queensland region. Already, the trains have travelled over eight million in service kilometres, and 15,000 passenger journeys, since December 2017.

"Our highly efficient commuter cars have been performing well, providing passengers in Queensland with a safe and comfortable ride. Bombardier is providing mobility solutions through its NGR and Gold Coast projects, helping the Queensland Government deliver its economic and public transportation development programs," said Wendy McMillan, president, South East Asia and Australia, Bombardier Transportation.

Maintenance of the fleet will be carried out by Bombardier at Wulkuraka, near Ipswich, for 32 years, where testing and commissioning has been occurring.

"This significant milestone of the last NGR train delivery in Queensland was achieved thanks to close collaboration between Queensland's Department of Transport and Main Roads (TMR), Queensland Rail, Bombardier and our partners," said McMillan.

"Bombardier has created more than 2,000 local jobs across the industry and supply chain throughout this project."

The NGR rollingstock had to be modified in 2019 to revised design specifications in order to meet disability specifications. According to a statement from Bombardier, the new trains will be one of the most accessible in Australia.

At the time, Paul Brown, Bombardier Australia's project director for the NGR project, said, "This variation order is an important request from our customer, and we will continue to work closely with them to deliver the NGR project in line with the enhanced specifications set out by the Queensland Government".

Speaking to Rail Express in late 2018, Brown highlighted that the rollingstock were built to specification.

"Bombardier has delivered those trains within accordance with the contract."

[BrizCommuter]

Just saw an NGR on the Ferny Grove Line, presumably a test train due to the timing.

[ozbob]

Just saw an NGR on the Ferny Grove Line, presumably a test train due to the timing.

[verbatim9]

Just saw an NGR on the Ferny Grove Line, presumably a test train due to the timing.

Just saw an NGR on the Ferny Grove Line, presumably a test train due to the timing.

So we might see Ngrs is service after March on both the Sunshine coast and Ferny Grove lines?

[Fares_Fair]

Yes, indeed (for Sunshine Coast).

Edit: Brackets and text added.

[JimmyP]

Just saw an NGR on the Ferny Grove Line, presumably a test train due to the timing.

Heard on the vine that they were Doomben terminating trains that ran empty to and from Mitchelton due to the northern lines closure.

[timh]

Just saw an NGR on the Ferny Grove Line, presumably a test train due to the timing.

Heard on the vine that they were Doomben terminating trains that ran empty to and from Mitchelton due to the northern lines closure.

Someone fill me in if Im lacking understanding here, but why would a Doomben line train terminate at Mitchelton? Wouldn't it have to turn back to get on the ferny Grove line anyway?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[HappyTrainGuy]

Just saw an NGR on the Ferny Grove Line, presumably a test train due to the timing.

Heard on the vine that they were Doomben terminating trains that ran empty to and from Mitchelton due to the northern lines closure.

Someone fill me in if Im lacking understanding here, but why would a Doomben line train terminate at Mitchelton? Wouldn't it have to turn back to get on the ferny Grove line anyway?

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Shorncliffe, airport, doomben, Redcliffe, Nambour and Caboolture trains were terminating at Bowen Hills. Redcliffe, Caboolture and Nambour trains were going into the balloon loop. Doomben, airport and shorncliffe trains had to all turn around all while fitting into gaps that are occupied by Ferny grove trains. Only one train at a time can enter Mayne via the Ferny grove line and 2 can be held on the short loop but this is quite rare due to the speeds the train has to go (4kph). Easier to send a few trains to mitchelton to turn around while the rest enter and leave the Mayne yard.

[ozbob]

^ thanks

[BrizCommuter]

^ So it looks like the FG Line will continue to be a museum for ageing rollingstock then!