New Generation Rollingstock

ozbob · March 20, 2018, 13:21:50 PM

The AHRC final view determination cannot be too far away now ..

Should be published here possibly by the end of this week.

burgo · March 21, 2018, 12:05:50 PM

Are these https://imgur.com/a/OubYP signals related to NGR? I asked a station worker but they explained them poorly. How are hyperlinks created when poating?

bretto82 · March 21, 2018, 12:12:47 PM

Quote from: burgo on March 21, 2018, 12:05:50 PM
Are these https://imgur.com/a/OubYP signals related to NGR? I asked a station worker but they explained them poorly. How are hyperlinks created when poating?

No mate they are for all trains as a indicator for guards what the next signal is displaying some have been moved for ngr though

ozbob · March 21, 2018, 12:34:24 PM

Quote from: burgo on March 21, 2018, 12:05:50 PM
Are these https://imgur.com/a/OubYP signals related to NGR? I asked a station worker but they explained them poorly. How are hyperlinks created when poating?

See > https://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/Alphabetical_list_of_all_bulletin_board_codes

ozbob · March 21, 2018, 16:38:50 PM

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/976347138211762177

burgo · March 22, 2018, 10:50:17 AM

NGR 709 spotted at Boondal station at 10:47. Had no desto, assuming a test. Haven't seen one so close to Sandgate before.

MichaelJ · March 23, 2018, 18:50:08 PM

Well, the first Waratah 2 has arrived from China and is ready to commence testing for Sydney Trains. Question is ... who will have 24 units/sets in revenue service and fully compliant first?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesmp/27091618168

ozbob · March 24, 2018, 06:35:19 AM

Quote from: ozbob on March 20, 2018, 13:21:50 PM
The AHRC final view determination cannot be too far away now ..

Should be published here possibly by the end of this week.

Maybe next week.

ozbob · March 24, 2018, 06:36:08 AM

Quote from: MichaelJ on March 23, 2018, 18:50:08 PM
Well, the first Waratah 2 has arrived from China and is ready to commence testing for Sydney Trains. Question is ... who will have 24 units/sets in revenue service and fully compliant first?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jamesmp/27091618168

Nice photograph MJ, thanks. I think somehow Sydney trains will win that race ...

ozbob · March 25, 2018, 02:54:04 AM

Understand a couple more NGRs at the Port. Importing of non-compliant NGRs continues.

There is a chance more might be sent to Redbank for agistment too.

The State of Queensland obviously doesn't care too much re the non-compliance. I doubt very much if they have yet determined a proper rectification plan, costed detailed and contractually secure. We are the ' State of Queensland ' despite being grossly incompetent they will rely on brute political force ( ie. no financial limitations using our money ) to attempt to steamroll the AHRC and others.

All submissions re the preliminary view will be made public I guess as for the initial submissions. True colours will then be on show for all.

achiruel · March 26, 2018, 06:50:32 AM

Quote from: ozbob on March 25, 2018, 02:54:04 AM
Understand a couple more NGRs at the Port. Importing of non-compliant NGRs continues.

There is a chance more might be sent to Redbank for agistment too.

The State of Queensland obviously doesn't care too much re the non-compliance. I doubt very much if they have yet determined a proper rectification plan, costed detailed and contractually secure. We are the ' State of Queensland ' despite being grossly incompetent they will rely on brute political force ( ie. no financial limitations using our money ) to attempt to steamroll the AHRC and others.

All submissions re the preliminary view will be made public I guess as for the initial submissions. True colours will then be on show for all.

Are you suggesting importation ought to be suspended? AIUI, this would likely inflict more financial damage due to breach of contract. If the trains are being delivered as per design, the State of Queensland really has no reason to suspend importation. Now, if the renegotiated the contract to have the problems fixed during manufacture, that is a different story, but I've certainly seen nothing to suggest this has been done.

#Metro · March 26, 2018, 07:03:22 AM

Quote
Are you suggesting importation ought to be suspended? AIUI, this would likely inflict more financial damage due to breach of contract.

The current administration wants the trains "fixed in Queensland". Whether this is cheaper or faster I do not know - but logic would suggest fixing them at the factory in India, where costs are in Indian currency, would be cheaper and faster.

But who knows? The current lot can't seem to tell the difference between their front end and their rear end.

ozbob · March 26, 2018, 07:22:11 AM

Quote from: achiruel on March 26, 2018, 06:50:32 AM
Quote from: ozbob on March 25, 2018, 02:54:04 AM
Understand a couple more NGRs at the Port. Importing of non-compliant NGRs continues.

There is a chance more might be sent to Redbank for agistment too.

The State of Queensland obviously doesn't care too much re the non-compliance. I doubt very much if they have yet determined a proper rectification plan, costed detailed and contractually secure. We are the ' State of Queensland ' despite being grossly incompetent they will rely on brute political force ( ie. no financial limitations using our money ) to attempt to steamroll the AHRC and others.

All submissions re the preliminary view will be made public I guess as for the initial submissions. True colours will then be on show for all.

Are you suggesting importation ought to be suspended? AIUI, this would likely inflict more financial damage due to breach of contract. If the trains are being delivered as per design, the State of Queensland really has no reason to suspend importation. Now, if the renegotiated the contract to have the problems fixed during manufacture, that is a different story, but I've certainly seen nothing to suggest this has been done.

No I am not suggesting importation be suspended. It is far to too late to alter the design and in fact would possibly cost more. However it must be noted that rectification of the non compliant trains (75 sets) is going to cost a lot more than the presently touted $150Million in my opinion. Just highlighting the number of trains that will require work. There is some thinking that the newer imports are fixed. No, they are all same.

achiruel · March 26, 2018, 08:46:39 AM

Quote from: #Metro on March 26, 2018, 07:03:22 AM
Quote
Are you suggesting importation ought to be suspended? AIUI, this would likely inflict more financial damage due to breach of contract.

The current administration wants the trains "fixed in Queensland". Whether this is cheaper or faster I do not know - but logic would suggest fixing them at the factory in India, where costs are in Indian currency, would be cheaper and faster.

But who knows? The current lot can't seem to tell the difference between their front end and their rear end.

Considering I don't believe DTMR even have a proper rectification plan yet, I'm not sure how they can have it rectified by the manufacturer without suspending imports for probably months and therefore incurring contractual penalties.

ozbob · March 26, 2018, 10:02:47 AM

I too doubt that the ' State of Queensland ' has in place a proper detailed, costed and contractually secure rectification plan.

We might find out later this week for sure if the AHRC publishes their final view on the Application for a Temporary Exemption for the non-compliant NGRs. I hope they have, but their previous form is largely incompetence. So they will probably go for the ' biff '.

ozbob · March 27, 2018, 12:59:36 PM

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/978466395192156160

ozbob · March 27, 2018, 14:31:44 PM

Understand NGR 716 is now in revenue service. Anyone spotted it yet?

Couple more NGRs being moved from the Port to Wulkuraka in the next day or so.

ozbob · March 28, 2018, 02:23:25 AM

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/978668273293127680

corners · March 28, 2018, 09:32:45 AM

Quote from: ozbob on March 27, 2018, 14:31:44 PM
Understand NGR 716 is now in revenue service. Anyone spotted it yet?

Couple more NGRs being moved from the Port to Wulkuraka in the next day or so.

Its been parked at Mayne last two mornings.

ozbob · March 28, 2018, 10:26:44 AM

^ thanks. Might be a reserve unit.

BrizCommuter · March 28, 2018, 10:28:11 AM

713 is in serious need of a wash, so much that people have written "clean me" in the dirt!

SurfRail · March 28, 2018, 11:05:24 AM

It's going to be an ongoing issue, no stainless steel fluting to hide that stuff anymore. Sydney and Melbourne already show how not to do it (although Melbourne seems to have made a lot of progress on keeping things in good nick in recent years).

ozbob · March 28, 2018, 14:20:01 PM

ozbob · March 28, 2018, 14:56:57 PM

I had a quick read of the Applications response (State of Queensland) to the Preliminary View. It is basically a legal challenge to the AHRC Preliminary View. No real advancement of a rectification plan other than ' trust us ' essentially. As it is legal challenge it might be a while yet before the AHRC publishes their final view.

What I expected. They will go the legal ' biff ', they have buckets of our money.

Executive Summary of the 'State of Queensland' response to preliminary view:

QuoteEXECUTIVE SUMMARY

(a) The State of Queensland (acting through the Department of
Transport and Main Roads) (TMR) and Queensland Rail (together
the Applicants) make this submission in response to the Australian
Human Rights Commission's preliminary view, dated 2 March 2018.

(b) The Applicants acknowledge the Commission's assistance in
considering their applications for temporary exemptions in an
expeditious manner. However, the Applicants express their concern
that the Commission's approach to considering the applications, as
recorded in its preliminary view, reveals that the Commission has
fallen into error in several respects. These errors include:

(i) adopting an incorrect approach to the exercise of its discretion
in s 55 of the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (Cth) (DDA)
and s 33A.1 of the Disability Standards for Accessible Public
Transport 2002 (Cth) (the Standards);

(ii) having regard to irrelevant considerations;

(iii) failing to consider relevant considerations, including the
significant countervailing public interests and whether a grant
of an exemption with conditions will serve the objects of the
DDA;

(iv) applying an incorrect evidentiary onus; and

(v) relying on information that has no factual basis.

(c) The Applicants respectfully request that the Commission re-consider
their applications for temporary exemptions in light of these
substantive and procedural considerations

ozbob · March 28, 2018, 15:23:39 PM

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/978855448089591809

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/978864916374392832

Stillwater · March 28, 2018, 15:46:57 PM

What a mean-spirited pack of bastards! Cop a load of this in the State of Queensland response:

"In adopting an approach that appears to focus on reprimanding the Applicants for the past processes, the Commission has taken the wrong approach."

One wonders how much the State of Queensland paid for the legal opinion they have landed the AHRC with. Let's hope the Commission is not intimidated.

However, we should not expect a quick response from the Commission as it will probably have to consult a bank of lawyers before bringing down its final determination.

Even then, it would appear the State of Queensland, in its current state of mind, will want to 'go the biff' in the courts.

I am but one person, but I will put up with a crappy, unreliable train service until the NGR mess is rectified.

I reject this statement by the State of Queensland:

"The Applicants are also concerned that the Commission has failed to adequately consider the substantial public interest factors weighing in favour of granting the exemptions. These factors were set out in the Applicants' response to the public submissions and include:

(i) The significant public interest in maintaining and improving the capacity of South East Queensland's passenger rail network for all customers, including those with disabilities;
(ii) Withholding the NGR trains from service is likely to incur costs for the State of Queensland under the Public Private Partnership contract."

Yep, my tax dollars are being wasted by the State of Queensland in the way they have managed this project, but I'll be damned that they be excused from breaking the law rather than be exposed to the full extent of the law ... because that is the only way the State of Queensland will learn the lesson.

Yes, dollars wasted now to save dollars in the future. This can never be allowed to happen again. Rolling exemptions are not on. A line must be drawn in the sand. And today is the day when that happens as far as I am concerned.

The State of Queensland spits in the eye of every Queenslander, not just those with a disability, when it lectures the AHRC by saying there is no analysis or reasoning to support the AHRC finding that: '(the Commission) is not persuaded that the reasons advanced in favour of the exemptions outweigh the impact on people with disability who are likely to experience discrimination in the meantime".

I pose this to those able-bodied people reading this. You are stroke away, a car accident away, one step away from contracting a debilitating disease, from having some dormant gene spring to life inside your body, falling badly, or any other incident that will inflict a disability. The State of Queensland says there is 'no analysis or reasoning' for putting the discrimination incurred by people with a disability ahead of what the State of Queensland defines as the so-called 'greater good'.

That is the very antithesis of what the AHRC stands for and the charter it is obliged to uphold, under law.

ozbob · March 28, 2018, 15:52:25 PM

Thanks for that eloquent response Mr Stillwater ..

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/978872234080112640

ozbob · March 28, 2018, 16:18:37 PM

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/978878801911468032

achiruel · March 28, 2018, 17:55:24 PM

I just find it flapping unbelievable that it's over TWO YEARS since the first NGR landed in Qld and the State Gov't/DTMR or whoever tf is supposed to be rectifying the problems still doesn't have any idea how they're going to do it. Any private business that pulled crap like this wouldn't have customers any more.

Stillwater · March 28, 2018, 18:07:23 PM

Mr Neil Scales should reflect on the Oath of Commitment he took recently upon becoming an Australian citizen:

From this time forward, [under God,]I pledge my loyalty to Australia and its people, whose democratic beliefs I share, whose rights and liberties I respect, and whose laws I will uphold and obey.

not_available · March 28, 2018, 19:11:15 PM

Quote from: BrizCommuter on March 28, 2018, 10:28:11 AM
713 is in serious need of a wash, so much that people have written "clean me" in the dirt!

~~713 is not the only thing that needs a little clean...~~

Quote from: Stillwater on March 28, 2018, 15:46:57 PM
I pose this to those able-bodied people reading this. You are stroke away, a car accident away, one step away from contracting a debilitating disease, from having some dormant gene spring to life inside your body, falling badly, or any other incident that will inflict a disability.

Has there ever been any instances of someone finding out that a station has low platforms the hard way? A potential double kick-in-the-face unfortunately.

#Metro · March 28, 2018, 21:46:27 PM

Quote9.27 The applicants have submitted that, compared to the existing trains, the NGR trains have new features that increase passenger amenity for everyone, including people with disability. These include Wi-Fi, internal and external 'Passenger Information Displays', extra priority seats and allocated spaces, new braille signage, high-back seats and hearing aid loops. Post-rectification, the new interurban fleet will also have double the number of toilets on board. These are commendable improvements. Nonetheless, the Queensland Government has decided to put trains into passenger service that do not comply with the Transport Standards.

So, you can't use the toilet.... BUT LOOK! WiFi!!

https://www.humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/NGR_PreliminaryView_2March2018_AHRC.pdf

Quote9.46 The applicants have stated in the present application that, even post-rectification, it is 'not possible' for Queensland Rail to provide boarding assistance at each door of an NGR train. This non-compliance with the Transport Standards appears to be set to continue indefinitely.

InclusionMoves · March 28, 2018, 22:23:44 PM

Sorry guys not had time to respond this afternoon but great points made by all of you. I am a little lost for words at this point.

Geoff

ozbob · March 29, 2018, 01:20:37 AM

Couriermail --> Rail fail: State Government argues Human rights of disabled are 'not absolute'

QuoteTHE State Government has argued trains that do not confirm with disability access standards should be allowed in Queensland until 2020 because the human rights of disabled passengers are not absolute.

The government was responding to a scathing Human Right Commission report on March 2 that said it intended to reject an application for an exemption to disability access standards on the heavily delayed $4.4 billion New Generation Rollingstock program.

Design issues include toilets that are too small for people with a disability to use, and the width of aisles blocking wheelchair access to all priority seating.

The Government's official response released yesterday said the commission had made several errors including incorrectly exercising discretion, considering irrelevant material, failing to consider relevant material and relying on information that had no factual basis.

In arguing that the commission had applied the incorrect test, the government highlighted that legislation only set out that discrimination against disabled people should be eliminated "as far as possible".

"As the interests of people and groups living in society sometimes conflict and must be balanced, human rights are not absolute and may need to be limited," the Government said.

It added that limiting human rights was "reasonable and justified in a free and democratic society if the final outcome was "legitimate and of sufficient importance".

Disability advocate Geoff Trappett said the Government's view on human rights was highly offensive.

"I can't believe that in 2018 my Queensland State Government has been party to a submission that said, 'human rights are not absolute and may need to be limited'," he said.

"That's not something I thought I'd ever see attributed to the Queensland Government."

Mr Trappett said the Government consistently talked up measures it would put in place to help disabled passengers during the Commonwealth Games however had failed to release any long-term rectification plans.

"My question is what happens after that, it doesn't say anything about after the Games and that to me as a disability advocate is a big red flag because we need to look at long term," he said.

The government has applied for an exemption in standards until the trains could be modified arguing they were desperately needed for the Commonwealth Games.

It also argued the units were needed to replace existing trains, which were being pushed beyond their retirement dates, creating potential issues.

Mr Trappett said there was no definite time frame for the commission to deliver a final determination however legal representatives told him a decision was "imminent".

ozbob · March 29, 2018, 01:22:09 AM

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/979015674734428160

ozbob · March 29, 2018, 01:42:55 AM

Sent to all outlets:

29th March 2018

Responses to AHRC Preliminary view published - NGR

Good Morning,

Responses to the AHRC's Preliminary View on the application by the ' State of Queensland ' for a temporary exemption for the non-compliant New Generation Rollingstock trains was made available yesterday. ( See > http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth ).

It is very disappointing and concerning to note the ' State of Queensland' has elected to chastise the AHRC and challenge the Preliminary View on a legal basis rather than concentrating on actually coming up with a proper detailed, costed, and contractually secure rectification plan to ' fix the NGR trains '.

Article Couriermail --> Rail fail: State Government argues Human rights of disabled are 'not absolute'

Mr Geoff Trappett Inclusion Moves is quoted as:

" I can't believe that in 2018 my Queensland State Government has been party to a submission that said, 'human rights are not absolute and may need to be limited'," he said.

"That's not something I thought I'd ever see attributed to the Queensland Government."

We agree with Mr Trappett.

One of our members has posted this comment. This sums up our position well.

https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg206588#msg206588

Quote from: Stillwater on March 28, 2018, 15:46:57 PM
What a mean-spirited pack of bastards! Cop a load of this in the State of Queensland response:

"In adopting an approach that appears to focus on reprimanding the Applicants for the past processes, the Commission has taken the wrong approach."

One wonders how much the State of Queensland paid for the legal opinion they have landed the AHRC with. Let's hope the Commission is not intimidated.

However, we should not expect a quick response from the Commission as it will probably have to consult a bank of lawyers before bringing down its final determination.

Even then, it would appear the State of Queensland, in its current state of mind, will want to 'go the biff' in the courts.

I am but one person, but I will put up with a crappy, unreliable train service until the NGR mess is rectified.

I reject this statement by the State of Queensland:

"The Applicants are also concerned that the Commission has failed to adequately consider the substantial public interest factors weighing in favour of granting the exemptions. These factors were set out in the Applicants' response to the public submissions and include:

(i) The significant public interest in maintaining and improving the capacity of South East Queensland's passenger rail network for all customers, including those with disabilities;
(ii) Withholding the NGR trains from service is likely to incur costs for the State of Queensland under the Public Private Partnership contract."

Yep, my tax dollars are being wasted by the State of Queensland in the way they have managed this project, but I'll be damned that they be excused from breaking the law rather than be exposed to the full extent of the law ... because that is the only way the State of Queensland will learn the lesson.

Yes, dollars wasted now to save dollars in the future. This can never be allowed to happen again. Rolling exemptions are not on. A line must be drawn in the sand. And today is the day when that happens as far as I am concerned.

The State of Queensland spits in the eye of every Queenslander, not just those with a disability, when it lectures the AHRC by saying there is no analysis or reasoning to support the AHRC finding that: '(the Commission) is not persuaded that the reasons advanced in favour of the exemptions outweigh the impact on people with disability who are likely to experience discrimination in the meantime".

I pose this to those able-bodied people reading this. You are stroke away, a car accident away, one step away from contracting a debilitating disease, from having some dormant gene spring to life inside your body, falling badly, or any other incident that will inflict a disability. The State of Queensland says there is 'no analysis or reasoning' for putting the discrimination incurred by people with a disability ahead of what the State of Queensland defines as the so-called 'greater good'.

That is the very antithesis of what the AHRC stands for and the charter it is obliged to uphold, under law.

Disgusted. The State of Queensland is desperate to cover up years of failure. There must be an inquiry into this diabolical failure. If the State does not have one we certainly will. ( See RBoT New Generation Rollingstock Public Inquiry > https://backontrack.org/ngr/ ).

The measure of failure by the State is profound. If citizens are forced to do the work of a recalcitrant State so be it.
There is a leadership vacuum and moral decay in Government and its transport bureaucracies that is now on display for the world to note.

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

ozbob · March 29, 2018, 01:52:43 AM

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/979023401435066368

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/979025564898963457

Stillwater · March 29, 2018, 02:22:22 AM

Is the 'State of Queensland' living up to the Commonwealth Games ideal, as expressed in the Charter of the Commonwealth Games Federation:

"To be an athlete-centred, sport-focused Commonwealth Sports Movement, with integrity, global impact and embraced by communities..
"We promote fairness, non-discrimination and inclusion in all that we do..
"Through impactful, high-performance sport, we help Commonwealth athletes, citizens and communities realise their aspirations and ambitions."

The words are from the Commonwealth Games Federation website.

In arguing the legal point to stretch the provisions of the DDA and challenge the AHRC preliminary determination, is the State of Queensland acting with integrity and embracing all in the community?

Is it 'promoting fairness, non-discrimination and inclusion in all that it does'?

Is it assisting citizens 'realise their aspirations and ambitions'?

The Federation has produced a Strategic Plan titled 'Transformations 2020'.
It says ....

"Commonwealth athletes are at the heart of everything we do. As they constantly push boundaries and challenge limits to deliver peak performance, it's our ambition to ensure their high performance on the field of play inspires wide and lasting impact in communities and across the nations and territories of the Commonwealth. As a movement and through our inspirational athletes we are uniquely placed to deliver the transformational leap from impactful performance in sport to performance impact in the Commonwealth."

What impact does the State of Queensland want to make?

The Federation reflects on its role this way:

"As a cornerstone of the Commonwealth itself, our dynamic sporting movement – driven by its values of Humanity, Equality and Destiny – has a key role to play in an energised, engaged and active Commonwealth of Nations and Territories."

Where is the humanity and equality in the State of Queensland's position? Does it have a sense of leading our society to a destiny that it espouses in numerous policy and strategy documents of its own, but which are found wanting when it comes to service delivery.

Remember, among the Commonwealth Games Federation values is this objective:

"Respecting equality, we promote fairness, non-discrimination and inclusion in all that we do."

We should ask ourselves whether this is what the State of Queensland is doing by challenging the AHRC in the way that it is currently.

ozbob · March 29, 2018, 07:18:30 AM

Words fail me Mr Stillwater ....

I bet the AHRC Final View will make for some interesting reading ...

#Metro · March 29, 2018, 07:33:02 AM

Need an upper house. Would have been harder to order the trains initially and easier to start an investigation. Repeating "Campbell Newman" isn't helping - he's not even in Parliament anymore.

News:

New Generation Rollingstock

bretto82