New Generation Rollingstock

[achiruel]

Regardless of whether members of the LNP were actually involved in the design of the trains, we have a system of responsible Government in Queensland, which means the buck stops with the Minister at the time, in this case Scott Emerson. Considering the political interference in the design (removing guards "cubbies" as an example), I don't see how you could realistically blame the design failure on anyone else.

[ozbob]

Addressing not_available query. There is no list that l am aware of.

However major failures of recent times:

RPL

NGR

Cattle wagons

DDA

Major successes

GCLR

There is no doubt the botched design for NGR was signed off under the Newman Govt, however bureaucrats should have advised against signing off on a non compliant design.
Nothing short of a proper inquiry will get all the facts out.

[#Metro]

How involved was TMR in the GC LRT? I thought the private company handled most things there.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

5th March 2018

Time to get cracking with a proper NGR rectification plan ' State of Queensland '

Good Morning,

The AHRC was scathing of the State of Queensland's planned rectification for the non-compliant NGR trains: " The Commission notes that rectification works are only at the concept design stage, and a detailed timeframe for each step of the rectification process is still to be developed. On the evidence available, significant uncertainty remains regarding the proposed rectification process."

This has been further highlighted in the Couriermail today:

Couriermail --> $100m Queensland train fix is still just an election promise four months later

The crux of the issue is that the State of Queensland has not really provided a detailed, costed rectification plan with definite timelines, to overcome the non-compliance. Should the State come up with a better rectification plan in the next two weeks, it is possible that the Commission could change their view. Based on the previous documentation by the State they will need to make marked improvements in their manner, candour and rigor to get the Commission to change their preliminary decision. Signed contracts would be necessary in our view.

The basic plan currently to rectify is split the 75 trains into two sub groups.  First group 35 trains with two toilet modules.  Seat orientation will be changed in the carriages with toilets to longitudinal.  This will overcome the problem of a too narrow path between the two toilet carriages as there will not be a requirement to move between the carriages.  The toilet modules will be lengthened slightly to make them fully compliant.  This will then provide an acceptable outcome for PWD. The second group will be 40 trains with no toilets.  We assume both cars 3 and 4 will have provision for PWD, with changes to seat layout to better allow movement of wheelchairs and other mobility devices as required.

The ' State of Queensland '  has to extract all digits over the next two weeks and have a very serious attempt at getting the NGR project over the exemption line.  Be a disaster if it proceeds to an injunction and they are then forced to stop operating the NGRs. If they don't get the exemption, an injunction application in the Federal Court will probably be upheld in our view.

This is on a knife edge.  Are they up to it?  Based on recent performances it is difficult to be confident to be frank ...

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg205418#msg205418 ]

[ozbob]

How involved was TMR in the GC LRT? I thought the private company handled most things there.

True, but technically it's a DTMR project. They DTMR do claim it as a success.

[SurfRail]

It wasn't DTMR when most of the fundamentals were worked out for Stage 1 (pre-merger between QT and DMR in 2009), and the operator took the lead role for Stage 2 - plus GCCC has been heavily involved.  I'm of the view that it probably wouldn't have been implemented as well if there were a few more years' worth of delays in starting it, assuming the LNP would even have signed the contracts.

The problem is DTMR does not actually be trying to grow patronage anymore, if ever, so they plan for fleet replacement and not adequately for expansion.  They don't have an operating model for CRR worked out beyond concept, and don't seem to have an off-peak operating model in place.  All they are interested in is how many trains they can cram in for the 2 hour AM peak and bugger anything else.

[tazzer9]

Apart from a few extra $$$.  What is stopping them putting 2 toilets into all the NGR's? Considering the whole cost adding 2 toilets them them all doesn't seem like a massive cost either.   
Is it because 2 toilets will take up too much space for passengers on peak hour suburban services, is it because there aren't enough decanting facilities and it would be too annoying to decant the whole fleet that often.  Our suburban routes routes are long enough to warrant toilets on all trains.

[tazzer9]

By not having them all toilet equipped defeats alot if the purpose of buying the fleet as one reason was to virtually eliminate clever train rostering.  No more train allocation priority as such

[SurfRail]

The MA and MB carriages would need to be made identical and the existing toilet module design fixed too, but other than that...

[ozbob]

A couple more NGRs into Wulkuraka ex Port today.

[jesse]

A couple more NGRs into Wulkuraka ex Port today.

Are these new ones with or without loo's? 🤔

[ozbob]

A couple more NGRs into Wulkuraka ex Port today.

Are these new ones with or without loo's? 🤔

All 75 NGRs are being built and imported to the original design I understand.  Any modifications to be done locally.

[BrizCommuter]

Apart from a few extra $$$.  What is stopping them putting 2 toilets into all the NGR's? Considering the whole cost adding 2 toilets them them all doesn't seem like a massive cost either.   
Is it because 2 toilets will take up too much space for passengers on peak hour suburban services, is it because there aren't enough decanting facilities and it would be too annoying to decant the whole fleet that often.  Our suburban routes routes are long enough to warrant toilets on all trains.

I would disagree in that last comment. Many suburban lines are approx. 1 hour from CBD to terminus - a toilet on-board would be useful, especially off-peak when station toilets are closed.

[ozbob]

Yo.  I reckon the best outcome would be all the NGRs have two toilets with both MA MB cars properly set up with longitudinal seating and PWD spaces.  They would in fact be identical as SurfRail suggests.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/970694569602854914

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/970697404474249216

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/970749517749370881

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

6th March 2018

Risk of injunctions as a result of NGR botch

Good Morning,

The ' State of Queensland ' is at a grave legal risk over the NGR botch.  It is essential that the all effort is made to obtain a temporary exemption for the NGRs.  We believe that will be largely dependent on coming up with a detailed, costed rectification plan for compliance that includes time lines and contractual details.  A failure to achieve an exemption will result in injunction actions, and expose the citizens of Queensland to even more wasted expenditure of our money.

There is no doubt about that.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg205453#msg205453 ]

[#Metro]

Queensland Government should deposit the rectification funds in a trust account with the AHRC.

A "plan" is not good enough - Queensland Government history is littered with plans. I think there was a thread on this forum and the running total was around 20 different plans for various transport schemes.

If I was AHRC, not only would I be asking for money in a trust account, but proof of signed contracts and final design of the fix.
It's not enough to be at the "concept", "consulting" or "design" phase.

[techblitz]

just jumped off 14 and noticed they have the internal 'quiet carriage' stickers in a pretty obscured position....don't even know why they bothered....

[ozbob]

Question Time: Queensland Parliament resumes

... The trouble prone New Generation Rollingstock trains will run exclusively on the Gold Coast line during the Commonwealth Games, Transport Minister Mark Bailey has revealed.

Speaking in Parliament this morning, Mr Bailey said nine trains will service the line for the 24-hour schedule, despite the Human Rights Commission last week ruling the trains did not have acceptable facilities for people in wheelchairs.

Mr Bailey also said all of the refit work would be carried out in Queensland for the trains.

"These trains will run for the Commonwealth Games," he said. ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/AfdoOffice/status/970858231219159041

========================

http://www.afdo.org.au/5819.aspx
Australian Federation of Disability Organisations (AFDO)

Queensland Rail & Transport disregards human rights!

AFDO welcomes the Australian Human Rights Commission preliminary decision not to grant an exemption under the Federal Disability Discrimination Act to Queensland Rail.  The joint application was lodged by Queensland Rail and Queensland Transport and Main Roads (TMR) for an exemption in relation to the purchase of up to 75 new six-car passenger trains which are not accessible.

CEO of AFDO, Ross Joyce outlined, "This situation has been allowed to occur because the Federal Transport Standards lack any capacity to force compliance or influence change. The Disability Discrimination Act has prohibited discrimination in public transport since 1993, and Transport Standards have required new trains to be compliant since 2002".

It's outrageous how Queensland Rail thought that it could buy non-compliant trains and just get an exemption! With the Commonwealth Games on in Queensland next week, the rail authorities still think they are justified and have announced they will be using these inaccessible, non-compliant trains and will flout a preliminary ruling from the Australian Human Rights Commission, the highest independent rights body in Australia! This is just discrimination at its ugliest, and I expect that people with disability and their families will justifiably protest this affront," said Mr Joyce. 

"Queensland Rail seems to believe that people with disability don't count and have no need to access public transport or have accessible toilets provided, it's shameful. This undermines Australia's commitment to human rights, and I would urge the Queensland Premier and Transport Minister to intervene, uphold the Commissions ruling and show that discrimination will not be condoned," demanded Mr Joyce.

[ozbob]

Newcastle Herald -->  Flawed trains to be used for Comm Games

Flawed new Queensland Rail trains will be used during the upcoming Gold Coast Commonwealth Games, despite an Australian Human Rights Commission ruling.

The Commission has refused to grant an exemption for the nine new trains, which have a number of design flaws, including no disabled toilets.

However, Transport Minister Mark Bailey told state parliament on Tuesday the trains will be used despite the commission's objections.

"These trains will run for the Commonwealth Games," Mr Bailey told parliament on Tuesday.

Mr Bailey again blamed the LNP opposition for the situation, because the trains were originally ordered under the previous Newman government.

The government and QR went to the commission last year, seeking an urgent three-year exemption from disability access laws that are meant to ensure all commuters have the same access to public transport.

But the commission was not persuaded that the government's reasons outweighed the effect of the non-compliant trains on people with a disability.

Mr Bailey also told parliament work to fix the problems with the new trains would be carried out in Maryborough, after concerns were raised that the train's manufacturer Bombardier was yet to sign off on the arrangement.

[tazzer9]

Its nice to know the governor of Queensland refuses to sack the relevant ministers involved in this debacle.  And the refusal and deflection to avoid an audit into the project screams that alot of people will get into serious $h!t if it does happen.

[ozbob]

Queensland Parliament Hansard
https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/hansard/2018/2018_03_06_DAILY.pdf

Ministerial Statements

6th March 2018

New Generation Rolling Stock

Hon. MC BAILEY (Miller—ALP) (Minister for Transport and Main Roads) (10.28 am): The
Palaszczuk government is committed to ensuring all Queenslanders have the modern, accessible train
fleet that they deserve with the rollout of the new generation rolling stock trains. In order to support the
tripling in train services for the Gold Coast Commonwealth Games, with 24-hour heavy rail to and from
the Gold Coast, NGR trains will operate exclusively on the Gold Coast and airport lines before and
during the games.
Make no mistake: the trains will run for the games. I am confident we will deliver our
Commonwealth Games timetable. Nine of these new trains have been deployed on the Gold Coast
airport line since December last year, exceeding our requirement of eight NGR trains for the
Commonwealth Games. This is accompanied by a boarding model to ensure that any passengers who
need assistance are able to access it on the platform.
Unlike the former LNP government, the Palaszczuk government will ensure that all new rail
manufacturing and retro fit contracts are carried out by Queensland workers after the LNP debacle of
outsourcing manufacturing to overseas. We make no apologies for bringing this work back to
Queensland workers in Maryborough, a city with a proud rail history.

Mr Saunders interjected.

Mr BAILEY: I take the interjection from the member for Maryborough. In relation to the Human
Rights Commission preliminary view handed down last week, we will review the details and make a
submission accordingly.

Honourable members interjected.

Mr SPEAKER: Members, I am having difficulty hearing the minister which means you are too
loud.

Mr BAILEY: The House should be reminded that we are dealing with the anti-Commonwealth
Games legacy of the LNP Newman government. Just like the LNP's do-nothing approach to preparing
for the Games—whether it was ignoring the M1, not building light rail stage 2 or not duplicating the
heavy rail from Helensvale to Coomera, as we have since—the LNP's mismanagement of the
$4.4 billion NGR contract has come back to bite them.

Opposition members interjected.

Mr SPEAKER: Minister, please resume your seat. I cannot provide any form of protection if you
provoke the opposition. However, I will caution those to my left. I can hear some of you over and above
your colleagues and I will start naming.

Mr BAILEY: The impact of the final decision from the commission will be related to whether or
not people are able to make complaints through the usual discrimination complaints process. The
commission is not called upon to decide whether or not the trains can run. Let us be clear: the LNP
signed the contract for half-priced overseas trains and approved the design. We inherited this and we
are fixing it.

Mr Nicholls: You changed it!

Mr BAILEY: It is appropriate that I should get an interjection from the member for Clayfield,
because he is the key person who botched that contract and he got a 4.3 per cent swing against him
at the election. I am sure they remembered. We are getting on with the job of rectifying the new
generation rolling stock, working with the disability sector and using Queensland workers—

Mr BLEIJIE: Mr Speaker, I rise to a point of order. There have been rulings by previous Speakers
with respect to ministerial statements advising the Queensland public on ministerial matters, not
engaging in debate or fighting previous governments. The Minister for Transport seems to be the only
minister over there to not understand the history of ministerial statements.

Mr SPEAKER: Thank you, member for Kawana. Minister, I remind you to keep your comments
as noncombative as possible, and I duly note the member's point of order.

Mr BAILEY: Thank you, Mr Speaker. I certainly take your direction. In closing, I want to
emphasise that these trains will run for the Commonwealth Games.

Mr Janetzki interjected.

Mr SPEAKER: Member for Toowoomba South, you are warned under the standing orders.

==========================

Commission of Inquiry is clearly needed to get to the real facts.  Pathetic ....

[ozbob]

^ my interpretation of the Minister's statement above is that the State is just going to do what it wants regardless of any AHRC decision.  They will hope to exhaust individuals seeking DDA DSAPT redress.  Pretty sad attitude in my opinion.  I really hope the AHRC now finalises as per the preliminary view.  Injunction actions now seem inevitable.  The State will expend more of our the good citizens funds fighting every step. 

They really are a disgrace in my view.

[ozbob]

14th November 2017

A bit of a refresher ..

Couriermail --> Queensland Rail trains on track for legal disaster

QUEENSLAND Rail was warned by its lawyers that its troubled $4.4 billion NGR train fleet could expose taxpayers to massive legal claims of discrimination if they were used before serious problems were fixed.

The legal advice, viewed by The Courier-Mail, was issued in September and warned the Palaszczuk Government faced a court challenge that could block the new trains from entering service.

Problems include aisles and on-board toilets that are inaccessible to disabled passengers.

In the letter, QR is advised to seek an urgent exemption from disability access laws to guard against any discrimination action.

It says a decision on whether to grant the New Generation Rollingstock trains provisional acceptance was "critical" as it was from this point that legal action could be taken and would also put its indemnity with the company behind the project at risk under its contract.

"The principal risk of non-compliance for Queensland Rail and the State is the risk of claims, particularly injunctive proceedings, brought by affected individuals or representative interest groups," the letter states.

"This risk will crystallise if non-compliant (trains) are operated in passenger service.

"There is also an earlier risk of injunctive action to the extent a court accepts QR or the State intends to operate non-compliant (trains) in passenger service (ie even if has not already done so)."

The Government in September gave the trains provisional acceptance and applied to the Australian Human Rights Commission for an exemption from the disability access laws.

It argued that the trains could not be ready in time for the 2018 Commonwealth Games without the exemption.

However, it is still awaiting a decision, with members of the disability sector vowing to challenge the exemption request at the Commission.

Disability advocate Geoff Trappett said he first warned Transport Minister Jackie Trad in 2015 that the trains were non-compliant, but the problems were not addressed until late this year.

Ms Trad yesterday responded to questions about the legal advice by pointing blame at the previous LNP administration for ordering trains that did not comply with disability standards.

"This Government has been fixing Tim Nicholls' mess and we will be modifying the NGR trains in Maryborough so that they comply with our disability standards," she said.

[InclusionMoves]

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/970924256627277824

This determination has already kicked off a discussion amongst the disability sector for law reform to give the DDA and the DSAPT real teeth. That is a good thing and I look forward to how it plays out,

Geoff

^ my interpretation of the Minister's statement above is that the State is just going to do what it wants regardless of any AHRC decision.  They will hope to exhaust individuals seeking DDA DSAPT redress.  Pretty sad attitude in my opinion.  I really hope the AHRC now finalises as per the preliminary view.  Injunction actions now seem inevitable.  The State will expend more of our the good citizens funds fighting every step. 

They really are a disgrace in my view.

[ozbob]

True. The  ' State of Queensland ' is demonstrating exactly why DDA and the DSAPT needs real teeth, rather than rely on individuals in the main having to do battle after battle. I have little doubt this is going to come back and bite them big time ...

[red dragin]

Is this the first big test for the legislation, ie Government vs Law?

[ozbob]

Is this the first big test for the legislation, ie Government vs Law?

No as far as I am aware.  Numerous past exemptions etc.  Most jurisdictions have their collective acts together, the ' State of Queensland '  is just a major failure with respect to the management of the NGR non-compliance.  They are basically riding roughshod over the AHRC and the community,  because they can and desperate politics to coverup and patch over their gross failures.  Their true colours are on display for all to note. 

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/971058723106865152

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/971062142467129344

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/971065609944367105

[ozbob]

 

[ozbob]

I am presently considering if we need to comment on the preliminary view of the AHRC.

I will consult with our key contributors to our submission to the AHRC to decide if we need to comment.

http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth

We will be putting in a short response to the AHRC following the release of the preliminary decision.  Submissions are due by 16th March 2018.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

8th March 2018

Commission of Inquiry into the NGR project failure is needed now!

Good Morning,

In the Queensland Parliament on the 6th March 2018 the Hon. M C Bailey Minister for Transport and Main Roads said that " ... the LNP's mismanagement of the $4.4 billion NGR contract has come back to bite them. " [ https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/hansard/2018/2018_03_06_DAILY.pdf ]

Well, why is the Government not pressing on with a Commission of Inquiry into this botched project then?

It is time the truth was told and the policy failures properly identified.  The future of the New Generation Rollingstock trains is still uncertain, despite the present Governments attitude to steamrolling the AHRC and the disabled community.

Any sign of an updated, detailed, properly costed and contractually secure rectification plan for the 75 non-compliant NGR trains yet?

Time is running out ' State of Queensland '.   RAIL Back On Track will be putting in a short response to the AHRC following the release of the preliminary decision.  Submissions are due by 16th March 2018. [ http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth ].

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg205418#msg205418 ]

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/971421781385822208

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/971426490129633280

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/971790609395535872

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/971853267746537472

[ozbob]

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 9th March 2018 page 11

Inquiry needed into NGR failure

[Stillwater]

Tick-tock, tick-tock,
the clusterfuk dogs those at the top,
whose schemes prolong the rot;
protecting those where the buck does stop.

Of passengers they care not a jot
While the wheelies, they do plot
to apply the law that seeks to stop
Injustice and uncaring sop.

The pollies fear an inglorious flop
Come the Games the world will bop.
Tick-tock, tick-tock.

[ozbob]

Response to AHRC re Preliminary view decision:

11th March 2018

The Commissioners Australian Human Rights Commission
GPO Box 5218
SYDNEY NSW 2001 Email: legal@humanrights.gov.au

Dear Commissioners,

Thank you for the opportunity to respond to the recent
NOTICE OF PRELIMINARY VIEW ON JOINT APPLICATION FOR
TEMPORARY EXEMPTIONS: STATE OF QUEENSLAND (ACTING
THROUGH THE DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORT AND MAIN ROADS)
AND QUEENSLAND RAIL

We supported the granting of an exemption till the conclusion of the Commonwealth Games, with any
further extension of the exemption being subject to a proper, detailed, fully costed and contractually
secure rectification plan being brought forward. In view of the strong veracity of the public
submissions and the Commissions preliminary findings we accept the Commissions preliminary
findings. The lack of a detailed rectification process has been highlighted by the Commission
(paragraph 9.26) and is of great concern to us.

Additionally we recognise the fact that should an exemption be granted this may close the door to
complaints under the DDA (paragraph 8.9).

It is clear to us that the State of Queensland will continue to operate the non-compliant NGR trains with
or without an exemption.

We have been calling for a formal Commission of Inquiry into all aspects of this NGR project. It is
difficult to comprehend how the State of Queensland has procured non-compliant new trains, and has
not yet rectified the non-compliance. The entire project needs an open public forensic examination, so
that the mistakes are never repeated.

We also note and support the Commission's warning that rolling DDA exemptions cannot continue for
ever and steps must be made now by transport authorities to reach overall network compliance by
2022.

Yours faithfully

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/972590902853058560

[ozbob]

Days since NGR 701 towed to Wulkuraka