New Generation Rollingstock

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/952654139791572992

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Queensland's new trains struggling to cope with summer heat

Rail commuters have complained the airconditioning in south-east Queensland's new trains is not coping with hot steamy summer temperatures.

Commuters have left posts on the Facebook page of public transport advocacy group, Rail Back on Track.

The New Generation Rolingstock trains began to collect passengers last month.

Rail Back on Track's Robert Dow said the passenger carriages on the 23 NGR trains, now in south-east Queensland, were stuffy and humid.

Five of those trains have been approved and are running on the CityTrain network.

"We have been getting some feedback and complaints for quite a while," Mr Dow said.

"People are saying that is it just hot and humid inside the new trains. It has come up enough times now and for long enough for us to think this could be a bad problem.

"We think the temperature needs to be turned down a few degrees."

Commuters seem to agree.

One man, Damian Jones, posted on Rail Back on Track's website that the airconditioning in the new trains could not handle Queensland's heat.

"Another air-con system from overseas that can't handle Queensland's humidity and high tempratures," he posted.

Another commuter, Imran Isawi, agreed.

"Why can't QR have decent, reliable (airconditioning) when other states can?" he asked.

"Sydney's trains put ours to shame. Queensland is sub-tropical, mostly warm to hot and frequently humid. Proper air-con is just a basic necessity on public transport.

"You see business professionals in, or others, in collar and tie/uniforms, running to the platform to catch a train that isn't even there yet. Then get on board and it's stuffy and sweaty."

Others said the airconditioning temperatures in the new trains varied between carriages.

A TransLink spokesman confirmed a trial to improve the airconditioning on the new trains had started.

"The New Generation Rollingstock project team has taken note of feedback from some customers regarding the temperature of the airconditioning system in the NGR trains, and is actively investigating the issue," he said.

"A trial is underway which involves a slight lowering of the airconditioning temperature, which includes a detailed analysis of the temperature across the carriages to ensure customer comfort.

"Early feedback from this trial has been positive. If this adjustment to the temperature resolves the issue, it will be made on all NGR trains in passenger service by the end of this week."

The TransLink spokesman said the airconditioning problem was not stopping the new trains from being added to service.

"This issue is not a fault with the units and is not affecting the introduction of new trains into service," he said.

There are currently five NGR train in passenger service. Queensland Rail hopes to have between 10 and 15 new trains in place by the April 2018 Commonwealth Games. Overall, 75 new trains have been ordered.

Problems with the airconditioning on the Indian-constructed trains was one issue in March 2017, when delivery of the new trains from India was halted.

Mr Dow said the airconditioning in the new trains contrasted with the rest of the trains in south-east Queensland's train fleet nicknamed EMUs, which stands for electrical multiple units.

"The EMUs, which the NGR trains are destined to replace, have in our opinion the best air conditioning of the entire train fleet," Mr Dow has posted.

"There is a marked difference between the cool environment on an EMU, compared to the hot humid environment on a NGR train."

One comment suggests airconditioning problems were delaying QR's formal acceptance of the NGR trains.

This was denied by Queensland Rail's Translink.

Mr Dow said he travelled on one of the new trains to test the airconditioning after hearing about the complaints.

"It seems to be variable," he said.

"It seems to vary from carriage to carriage and it depends on where you sit in the carriage but, as I say, it is coming up enough times now to suggest this could be bad problem."

South-east Queensland temperatures have been above 30 degrees last week with Brisbane topping 37 degrees on Sunday.

Brisbane's maximum temperatures are this week are predicted to be between 30 and 32 degrees.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/952942518244556800

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/952938686370336768

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

16th January 2018

Airconditioning on NGR trains being sorted ...

Good Morning,

Some good news. Article this morning at Brisbanetimes Queensland's new trains struggling to cope with summer heat

Brisbanetimes have reported that:

" ... A TransLink spokesman confirmed a trial to improve the airconditioning on the new trains had started.

"The New Generation Rollingstock project team has taken note of feedback from some customers regarding the temperature of the airconditioning system in the NGR trains, and is actively investigating the issue," he said.

"A trial is underway which involves a slight lowering of the airconditioning temperature, which includes a detailed analysis of the temperature across the carriages to ensure customer comfort.

"Early feedback from this trial has been positive. If this adjustment to the temperature resolves the issue, it will be made on all NGR trains in passenger service by the end of this week. ..."

Thank you!

Well finally something is going right with the Not Going Right aka New Generation Rollingstock trains.

Keep cool!

Regards
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

14th January 2018

Please adjust the air-conditioning on the NGR trains to cooler ...

Good Morning,

RAIL Back on Track Members and the public have made comment and have given feedback concerning the poor performance of the air-conditioning on the New Generation Rollingstock (aka Not Going Right) trains ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg203057#msg203057 ).

The EMUs, which the NGR trains are destined to replace have in our opinion the best air conditioning of the entire train fleet. There is a marked difference between the cool environment on an EMU compared to the hot humid environment on a NGR train.

It is possible that the air conditioning on the NGR trains needs adjustment.  It is not always very pleasant on the NGR due to the high temperature and humidity.

Can this be checked out please before more are rolled out to service, albeit being non DDA and non DSAPT compliant.

Submissions to the AHRC concerning the application by the ' State of Queensland ' for a temporary exemption for non compliance close tomorrow the 15th January 2018 at the AHRC ( http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth#railway ).

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/952952033153134593

[ozbob]

Doing an interview with 7 News shortly re NGRs.

Also booked for 4BC/2GB radio at 4.40pm (Brisbane time) for a chat re NGRs with host Michael McLaren.

[dancingmongoose]

I must be the only one who prefers the NGR aircon, I'm sick to death of freezing on the train in the middle of summer on pretty much every other unit. A few degrees cooler certainly won't go astray but please don't make people need to start wearing jumpers on the train again

[verbatim9]

^^It's easier to warm up than cool down. Better to have Air con on PT a bit cooler to deal with any amount of people at one time. The fans (flow rate) should be automatically controlled to sense the amount of people in the carriage at any one time to ensure efficient air flow.

[InclusionMoves]

I am going to laugh my arse off when "air conditioning" shows up in media monitors (large news analyst service helps orgs track their mentions in the news) as a most talked about topic!!!   

Doing an interview with 7 News shortly re NGRs.

Also booked for 4BC/2GB radio at 4.40pm (Brisbane time) for a chat re NGRs with host Michael McLaren.

[Stillwater]

QR now boasts that it has a 'proactive communications strategy' ... there does not appear to be evidence of it.  The decision to look into the air-conditioning issue is a good move, but a 'proactive' communications strategy would have flagged it as an issue long before now.

Now, QR is seen to be reactive (to negative comments about air-conditioning) and subsequent media coverage.  A 'proactive' strategy would have headed off negativity at the pass.  Having said that, QR deserves kudos for moving on this, if belatedly.

Is the 'proactive' strategy picking up the vibes about uncertainty concerning timetable changes at the time of the Commonwealth games?

[SurfRail]

I must be the only one who prefers the NGR aircon, I'm sick to death of freezing on the train in the middle of summer on pretty much every other unit. A few degrees cooler certainly won't go astray but please don't make people need to start wearing jumpers on the train again

One of the reasons I am reticent to ever complain about environmental settings - those who know me know I'm not the smallest person getting around, but even more conventionally sized people who would retain less heat seem to be having issues.

[tazzer9]

My idea of good air conditioning is if you can wear thongs while in it.  Its not good enough and the temp should be lowered.

[red dragin]

According to the Facebook page Railway Preservation Society Of Queensland www.facebook.com/RPSQLD, 715 has been shunted into Redbank, still showing it's battle scars from the little excursion it had off the rails.

[James]

James does not cope well with summer in Brisbane at the balmiest of times. I am a 'small' person too. I, for one, love the EMU's air conditioning, and even find the 160s/260s a bit on the disappointing side.

Much better to have the train an iceberg, but nearly empty, rather than hot and full. You can put extra layers of clothes on, but you can only take so many clothes off before you get arrested for public indecency, or embarrass yourself and those around you.

It's 2018,  it's really sad that QR can't even get the basics right these days.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/953170817138987009

[ozbob]

Redbank Workshops





Moo!

Photographs R Dow 16th January 2018

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/953185556141232128

[red dragin]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/953185556141232128

The wife asked me to pass on "nice haircut", Bob 

[ozbob]

According to the Facebook page Railway Preservation Society Of Queensland www.facebook.com/RPSQLD, 715 has been shunted into Redbank, still showing it's battle scars from the little excursion it had off the rails.

Thanks.  I headed down to Redbank as soon as you posted this. 

My wife cuts my hair.  Save a fortune ... 

[Stillwater]

One little train set sitting in the yard
And if another NGR train should unfortunately fail
There'll be two little train sets eating up the grass.
Two little train sets sitting in the yard
And if another NGR train set should unfortunately fail
There'll be three little train sets sitting on their arse.

[Stillwater]

From the AHRC website:

"Exemptions granted by the Commission may be granted subject to terms and conditions. Failure to comply with such a term or condition does not, of itself, amount to unlawful conduct. However, where the beneficiary of an exemption fails to comply with a condition attached to the exemption, they will be deprived of the benefit of the exemption. They will then be subject to the requirements of the relevant disability standard or the DDA in the usual way.

"The Commission's powers to grant exemptions are expressed in broad terms. However the Commission is of the view that exemptions should not be granted lightly. The Commission must be satisfied that the grant is justified, and substantial evidence is needed to justify it."

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Human rights exemption for Queensland trains should be rejected, group says

People with disabilities fear being left behind on the station platform due to the design of Queensland Rail's new trains.

The New Generation Rollingstock was due to be operational in mid-2016, but delivery was halted due to myriad issues - including the toilets being too small for wheelchairs - before the first of the trains entered service in December.

There are now five New Generation Rollingstock trains on the tracks, with an application for exemption from discrimination laws around the design of the toilets yet to be decided by the Australian Human Rights Commission.

QR and the Department of Transport and Main Roads applied to the Australian Human Rights Commission for a temporary exemption to discrimination laws while it completed works to change the toilet layout to make the NGR trains comply with disability standards.

But in a submission to the AHRC, the Queensland Rail Accessibility Reference Group said an exemption would prolong discrimination.

"An exemption strengthens a public view that the interests of persons with disabilities are subsidiary to everyone else's interests," it reads.

Due to the location of the guard cab in car six on the NGR, rather than mid-train, QR station staff will provide assistance to customers when boarding from the middle of the platform, instead of guards.

The reference group argued customers who required help getting on or off the train would be overlooked or forgotten.

"Being left on trains currently occurs with annoying frequency and the ARG expects that unless a guard cab is provided mid-train ... [this] will escalate from annoyance to become a systemic problem," the submission reads.

The reference group asked the AHRC to refuse the application for a temporary exemption, preferring the issues with the toilets to be fixed before the trains entered service. They also asked for the guard cab to be located mid-train.

The changes needed to make the trains' toilets and pathways disability-compliant could take 18 to 36 months.

But the new trains need to be on the tracks to provide reliable services on the Gold Coast line during the Commonwealth Games in April, which has been identified as a "stress period" on the network.

An independent review by German railway operator Deutsche Bahn, completed in August, argued 18 NGR trains were required for the Commonwealth Games timetable.

There are now five NGR trains in service.

Queensland Rail chief executive Nick Easy said its presence at all Gold Coast line stations had already been strengthened to ensure people with disabilities were supported with staff on the ground from first service to last service, seven days a week.

"The Queensland government has committed funding to improve the accessibility and functionality of the NGR trains and design work is under way," he said.

"These design changes will maximise the accessibility and functionality of the train, including a redesign of the toilet module."

Mr Easy said QR expected more NGR trains to be on the tracks ahead of the Commonwealth Games - but did not say how many - as other trains completed testing and safety assessments.

"Queensland Rail and the Department of Transport and Main Roads are continuing to proceed with the required process to have a temporary exemption considered and issued by the AHRC," he said.

"This application is still under review by the AHRC."

Public submissions on the application to the AHRC closed this week, and it was yet to publish a decision.

Police Minister Mark Ryan said the government was "100 per cent committed to ensuring the NGRs are up to scratch".

"We'll continue to work with all stakeholders to ensure that the NGRs are accessible to everyone," he said.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/953296968079388672

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/953302083377102848

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/953310620350169088

[ozbob]

From the AHRC website:

"Exemptions granted by the Commission may be granted subject to terms and conditions. Failure to comply with such a term or condition does not, of itself, amount to unlawful conduct. However, where the beneficiary of an exemption fails to comply with a condition attached to the exemption, they will be deprived of the benefit of the exemption. They will then be subject to the requirements of the relevant disability standard or the DDA in the usual way.

"The Commission's powers to grant exemptions are expressed in broad terms. However the Commission is of the view that exemptions should not be granted lightly. The Commission must be satisfied that the grant is justified, and substantial evidence is needed to justify it."

To be frank I think the ' State of Queensland ' chances are 50/50 at best.  And if an exemption is granted I doubt it will be for 3 years.  We want a proper detailed, costed and guaranteed rectification plan with a most definite timeline for ' fixing ' the NGRs.  Not the wish-washy stuff in the State of Queensland's application for a temporary exemption. A very high cost labour solution is a non-solution, these trains will be in service for at least 30 years.  A proper design fix is needed.

There is a very substantial body of evidence that supports the view that the ' State of Queensland ' should have acted in a more timely manner.  How do you also explain how a state ends up with non-compliant (DDA & DSAPT) trains when it is known that the legal requirement has been in place since 2002?

The Government of the day in 2016 also failed to clean out the bumbling bureaucracy at DTMR that have bumbled this project.  They are still there bumbling!  Had there been some decisive action back in the day, perhaps a lot of NGR matters would not be the issue they are now today.

This entire NGR botch is a fuking nightmare!   

[InclusionMoves]

Our entire intro from our QR accessibility reference group submission for you guys. Says something when QR's own consultation group comes out against them

Geoff

From the AHRC website:

"Exemptions granted by the Commission may be granted subject to terms and conditions. Failure to comply with such a term or condition does not, of itself, amount to unlawful conduct. However, where the beneficiary of an exemption fails to comply with a condition attached to the exemption, they will be deprived of the benefit of the exemption. They will then be subject to the requirements of the relevant disability standard or the DDA in the usual way.

"The Commission's powers to grant exemptions are expressed in broad terms. However the Commission is of the view that exemptions should not be granted lightly. The Commission must be satisfied that the grant is justified, and substantial evidence is needed to justify it."

To be frank I think the ' State of Queensland ' chances are 50/50 at best.  And if an exemption is granted I doubt it will be for 3 years.  We want a proper detailed, costed and guaranteed rectification plan with a most definite timeline for ' fixing ' the NGRs.  Not the wish-washy stuff in the State of Queensland's application for a temporary exemption. A very high cost labour solution is a non-solution, these trains will be in service for at least 30 years.  A proper design fix is needed.

There is a very substantial body of evidence that supports the view that the ' State of Queensland ' should have acted in a more timely manner.  How do you also explain how a state ends up with non-compliant (DDA & DSAPT) trains when it is known that the legal requirement has been in place since 2002?

The Government of the day in 2016 also failed to clean out the bumbling bureaucracy at DTMR that have bumbled this project.  They are still there bumbling!  Had there been some decisive action back in the day, perhaps a lot of NGR matters would not be the issue they are now today.

This entire NGR botch is a fuking nightmare!   

[ozbob]

^ it does IM.  A measure of the absolute botch this mess is hey?

[dancingmongoose]

I caught 713 home last night and the AC was noticeably cooler while still being a comfortable temparature

[ozbob]

I caught 713 home last night and the AC was noticeably cooler while still being a comfortable temparature

[Stillwater]

This is what TMR and QR will read from the AHRC:

"Failure to comply with such a term or condition (of an exemption being granted) does not, of itself, amount to unlawful conduct."

So Queensland might disregard and condition imposed and get that 'proactive' communications strategy to spread the word "we are not engaging in unlawful conduct by disregarding the AHRC".

But they will be ignoring the sting in the tail:

"Where the beneficiary of an exemption fails to comply with a condition attached to the exemption, they will be deprived of the benefit of the exemption. They will then be subject to the requirements of the relevant disability standard or the DDA in the usual way."

This is not Queensland law that can be fudged, this is red letter law and the Queensland Government is not above the law.

[InclusionMoves]

Re the Brisbane Times article this morning QR was asked whether they would remove NGR from service and retrofit if they were denied exemption and declined to answer the question.

There is absolutely no legal history on a government putting non compliant transport in before they received their exemption (but having admitted they are non compliant by putting in the exemption, plenty unfortunately have just hidden it and put it in service hoping no one would notice) I am sure this is what would have happened without public pressure. Let alone them then having that exemption knocked back. From our records no one has been silly enough to do that yet. But we do strive to be the first in Qld.

Geoff

This is what TMR and QR will read from the AHRC:

"Failure to comply with such a term or condition (of an exemption being granted) does not, of itself, amount to unlawful conduct."

So Queensland might disregard and condition imposed and get that 'proactive' communications strategy to spread the word "we are not engaging in unlawful conduct by disregarding the AHRC".

But they will be ignoring the sting in the tail:

"Where the beneficiary of an exemption fails to comply with a condition attached to the exemption, they will be deprived of the benefit of the exemption. They will then be subject to the requirements of the relevant disability standard or the DDA in the usual way."

This is not Queensland law that can be fudged, this is red letter law and the Queensland Government is not above the law.

[ozbob]

It is interesting to speculate on some of the possible outcomes of the exemption application.

1.  Exemption is granted by AHRC as per the State of Queensland's application

Possible actions:

Some groups will no doubt seek a review in the Administrative Appeals Tribunal (AAT), and possibly higher courts depending on outcomes.

2.  Exemption is granted by AHRC but for a shorter period.

State of Queensland might seek a review in the AAT, with possible higher court proceedings.

Some groups might seek a review in the AAT, with possible higher court proceedings.

3.  Exemption application is declined.

State of Queensland might seek a review in the AAT, with possible higher court proceedings (could end up in High Court of Australia).

if the State of Queensland defies the AHRC and continues to run the trains, possible injunction action to stop them.

It seems to me now no matter what the AHRC decision, this NGR non compliance will continue to fester for years with legal mumbo jumbo.  Costly legal actions and so forth.  How much better if due attention had been exercised at the original design process.

[MichaelJ]

Re the Brisbane Times article this morning QR was asked whether they would remove NGR from service and retrofit if they were denied exemption and declined to answer the question.

There is absolutely no legal history on a government putting non compliant transport in before they received their exemption (but having admitted they are non compliant by putting in the exemption, plenty unfortunately have just hidden it and put it in service hoping no one would notice) I am sure this is what would have happened without public pressure. Let alone them then having that exemption knocked back. From our records no one has been silly enough to do that yet. But we do strive to be the first in Qld.

Geoff

I'd be willing to bet they haven't even entertained the idea. Bombardier want to make money, Queensland Rail desperately want more trains/services and their older rollingstock is bleeding money.

[InclusionMoves]

Interesting distinction you touch on there MichaelJ (perhaps without noticing) Bombadier do want to make money but do they get paid on trains being delivered or commissioned for service? Would change their motivation to get them delivered or get them right. 

Geoff

Re the Brisbane Times article this morning QR was asked whether they would remove NGR from service and retrofit if they were denied exemption and declined to answer the question.

There is absolutely no legal history on a government putting non compliant transport in before they received their exemption (but having admitted they are non compliant by putting in the exemption, plenty unfortunately have just hidden it and put it in service hoping no one would notice) I am sure this is what would have happened without public pressure. Let alone them then having that exemption knocked back. From our records no one has been silly enough to do that yet. But we do strive to be the first in Qld.

Geoff

I'd be willing to bet they haven't even entertained the idea. Bombardier want to make money, Queensland Rail desperately want more trains/services and their older rollingstock is bleeding money.

[MichaelJ]

They make money once trains have been accepted for service so that's the primary goal. Five are now in service with another 2-3 per calendar month moving forward.

[InclusionMoves]

Hence they are more of the 'screw the disability compliance' argument cause it would slow down roll out.

They make money once trains have been accepted for service so that's the primary goal. Five are now in service with another 2-3 per calendar month moving forward.

[ozbob]

I wonder how long before the Qtectic spits the dummy?

[InclusionMoves]

Their communications and marketing team may as well pack up and go home thats for sure there is no good news coming out of NGR. There are rumours of banks involved in the consortium pulling the plug if there are ANY overruns etc so all very shaky ground

I wonder how long before the Qtectic spits the dummy?

[ozbob]

There has to be something that pushed the ' State of Queensland ' to run the trains without an AHRC exemption.

Must be pressures we are not explicitly aware of,  I don't think it was just to say we ran NGRs in revenue service before the end of 2017.

Serious financial, contractual pressures is my guess.  Would not surprise me if some of the ' pressure ' was from Qtectic, in fact highly probable is my guess.  This could all go horribly wrong when the AHRC determination is finalised.

[BrizCommuter]

Is there a NGR timetable for this week? My 6 year old son wants a ride.

[InclusionMoves]

https://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/politics/queensland/queensland-rail-mute-on-plan-b-if-human-rights-application-fails-20180117-p4yyky.html1

The quote "I think the plan is to continue to cooperate with the (Australian Human Rights) Commission on the process..." is the kind that comes back to haunt you. 'I think', who is in charge QR? orders from above again?

Geoff