New Generation Rollingstock

[not_available]

^ ^
It seems to be more like putting one of those small, children's Band-Aids with those Disney characters on them, over one of those really big major open wounds that people get because of a freak accident.

"How many crew does it take to run a Queensland Rail NGR Train?"

And, if that ever comes up on some trivia thing and I just so happen to be the one reading the questions, should that be read like those "How many _______ does it take to change a lightbulb?" thingys?

[InclusionMoves]

Stillwater I have heard these observers are being removed next week so they are not even pretending its not related to the close of the exemption submissions date (submissions close on the 15th.)

Quite obviously they are there to ensure no more complaints before submissions close. Then PWD fend for themselves with a system we told then Minister Trad was broken in August 2015 before a train was even built. 

I believe the person who was telling Ozbob that the toilet was out of order was actually genuine. They are ignoring the fact the toilet is non compliant. So that guy was paid to tell people the toilet was out of order for the day basically. Puts a dent in the 'observer only' argument.

Geoff
 

LOL, it makes for a good Trivia Night question. "How many crew does it take to run a Queensland Rail NGR Train?"  Three probably would be an acceptable answer -- driver, guard and an 'observer' but what about all those platform assistants?  Clearly QR are s%#t scared that a person with a disability will get left behind at a station, or has their wheelchair jammed in a passageway, especially if that is an overseas visitor here for the Games etc.

It makes you wonder why they go to these lengths to avoid complications.  That answer is they don't want any incident or evidence to jeopardise the AHRC exemption application.  But what happens after they get their exemption?  On-board observers withdrawn after the Commonwealth Games perhaps?  Most likely.

Ozbob, the person who told you and your lady wife that the NGR train toilet door was 'not working' .... is that a means of getting around not having a compliant toilet configuration?

All round, it seems so much more sensible to bite the bullet and spend the money to fix the problems.  The observers are a Band-Aid solution at best.

[ozbob]

The ballooning cost of labour to support the NGRs will restrict future frequency increases.  The NGR trains must be properly fixed.

As I pointed on FB ( https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/1908365042511007 going off by the way with the usual gang ..  ) say we want to run a NGR on a line that has 25 stations.  We have two person crew plus a station assistant on 25 stations  - a total of 27 staff.  Compare that to say Transperth, it takes a staff of one person to run the equivalent train.  Simply crazy that the ' State of Queensland ' elects to go down this path.  I am hoping that the AHRC determination might force a change in the present flawed rectification plan to one that will restore the practicality of the procedures as they are for non NGR trains at present.

[verbatim9]

^^There were two customer service people on Platform 4 at Park Road when I caught the train the other day. I know it's a challenge but the only way forward for the Gold Coast / Airport line is Driver Only Operations. The new trains are designed and manufactured for Driver Only. I hope there is a plan in the next couple of years to trial Driver Only on this line.

(Be interesting to see what the driver can actually see at each stop via the cameras from the Driver cab along route).

[#Metro]

25 extra staff x $50000 wages/year = $1.25 million per year.

[tazzer9]

Being Qld DOO is still likely a decade away.  Even if QR was privatised and contracted out.   We like to be bit backwards here and the general public would likely freak out at any proposal to do it. 
It may also not save as much money as people think.  The Shifts and times drivers would be able to work would likely be shortened with DOO.  It also creates an imbalance for rostering, almost creating another sector.

There really should be plans to get the gold coast line DOO very soon.  All the stations are manned for a majority of the day, extending those stations staffed time to cover all trains would cost too much money, and those staff do serve other purposes like customer relations, cleaning and security. 
I would also like to see the Doomben line go DOO.  mainly because patronage is so low then delays resulting from the driver doing some extra work wouldn't occur very often. 

[ozbob]

25 extra staff x $50000 wages/year = $1.25 million per year.

~ 140 stations .... lot of moolah in the longer term.  Needs to be a better design fix IMHO.

Need at least two shifts, probably 3. So looking at 143 x 3 x 50K = $22 Million per year.  30 years ~ $660 million, and that's not adjusted for inflation.  Simply not sustainable.  I think the ' State of Queensland ' has lost the plot essentially concerning NGRs.   

[InclusionMoves]

Important figure missing from this is fixing the design issues when identified in 2015. Sure it would be a damn side lower than $660m But we will have to wait for 30 year cabinet release to find out. Setting my alarm now!!

25 extra staff x $50000 wages/year = $1.25 million per year.

~ 140 stations .... lot of moolah in the longer term.  Needs to be a better design fix IMHO.

Need at least two shifts, probably 3. So looking at 143 x 3 x 50K = $22 Million per year.  30 years ~ $660 million, and that's not adjusted for inflation.  Simply not sustainable.  I think the ' State of Queensland ' has lost the plot essentially concerning NGRs.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/951863488758005760

[achiruel]

I would also like to see the Doomben line go DOO.  mainly because patronage is so low then delays resulting from the driver doing some extra work wouldn't occur very often.

AFAIK, the Doomben line still uses some antiquated signalling system which makes DOO a practical impossibility.

[Stillwater]

Is this correct?  Rather than fix the non-compliant toilets on the NGR trains in a timely manner, QR is employing extra staff on these trains to warn passengers off using the toilets?  If no-one is able to use the toilets, then no-one can complain they are non-compliant?  Everyone is being discriminated against equally because everyone can't use the on-board toilet - therefore there is no discrimination against anybody?  Is that the new low that this saga has got to?

[ozbob]

Is this correct?  Rather than fix the non-compliant toilets on the NGR trains in a timely manner, QR is employing extra staff on these trains to warn passengers off using the toilets?  If no-one is able to use the toilets, then no-one can complain they are non-compliant?  Everyone is being discriminated against equally because everyone can't use the on-board toilet - therefore there is no discrimination against anybody?  Is that the new low that this saga has got to?

I think there is a slight misunderstanding.  The other day when I was on NGR 704, the carriage attendant (observer) just told me the door of the toilet was not working properly.  There was no mention about compliance.

[ozbob]

The article from yesterday has been today published in the Queensland Times ...   

Queensland Times 13th January 2018 page 12

Rail staff being paid to tattle

[Stillwater]

Thanks for the clarification, Ozbob. 

[techblitz]

https://www.facebook.com/QueenslandRail/posts/1831672233517795

Great to see and finally ride on the new train. A fresh interior, windows you can see out of, smoothing acceleration and ride. It's just a shame that when hopping on board I didn't notice much of an air conditioned environment. The cabin was only slightly cool and still a bit humid, and only about half full if that. Please don't tell me these trains will suffer in the heat as well?! All in all great to see more of these new machines on the network

[brissypete]

Just saw 713 operating Gold Coast service from Park Rd. Obviously now on weekend services as well.

Whereas I'm on a good old EMU with the usual excellent air conditioning, definitely the best air conditioning in the fleet.

Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk

[verbatim9]

^^They need to set the Air con a degree cooler. Maybe it's purposely warmer to save on power? Who knows?

[ozbob]

If and when they scrap the EMUs perhaps remove the air con units and replace the ' modern ' air con units in the Not Going Right trains with the old EMU ones  ..



( don't bother pointing out that probably cannot be done ..  but  only )

[Cazza]

3 NGR's at Robina Depot and another 2 out and about on the tracks today.

[mufreight]

Had a ride in an NGR today rode in car 4 and the A/c was struggling with only 9 pax in the carriage, time to send this one back for an upgrade not up to the standards of the old EMU sets rode back to Ipswich in one of the first series EMU's and the carriage was cold near the window.  Obviously these cut price NGR sets saved some dollars with an el cheepo A/c.

[BrizCommuter]

Had a ride in an NGR today rode in car 4 and the A/c was struggling with only 9 pax in the carriage, time to send this one back for an upgrade not up to the standards of the old EMU sets rode back to Ipswich in one of the first series EMU's and the carriage was cold near the window.  Obviously these cut price NGR sets saved some dollars with an el cheepo A/c.

I doubt the air con is running on full tilt. Probably just needs a thermostat setting change!

[tazzer9]

Anyone know any details of the Air-conditioning system.  I know its 2 units per carriage.  But any specifications like Total power consumption, cooling capacity in kW, cost, flow rates (L/s) etc.

[SurfRail]

^ It may still be a bit variable.  Having ridden on 708 in the last week it seemed somewhat better, but none have been as good as the 160/260s I'm usually on.  I suspect it isn't the system capability but the settings.

[tazzer9]

The air-con being crap seems to be the one universal thing everyone here can agree on.  All 4 times I have been on NGR's the air-con has been terrible, still having high humidity despite being on quiet services.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

14th January 2018

Please adjust the air-conditioning on the NGR trains to cooler ...

Good Morning,

RAIL Back on Track Members and the public have made comment and have given feedback concerning the poor performance of the air-conditioning on the New Generation Rollingstock (aka Not Going Right) trains ( https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg203057#msg203057 ).

The EMUs, which the NGR trains are destined to replace have in our opinion the best air conditioning of the entire train fleet. There is a marked difference between the cool environment on an EMU compared to the hot humid environment on a NGR train.

It is possible that the air conditioning on the NGR trains needs adjustment.  It is not always very pleasant on the NGR due to the high temperature and humidity.

Can this be checked out please before more are rolled out to service, albeit being non DDA and non DSAPT compliant.

Submissions to the AHRC concerning the application by the ' State of Queensland ' for a temporary exemption for non compliance close tomorrow the 15th January 2018 at the AHRC ( http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth#railway ).

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

^ It may still be a bit variable.  Having ridden on 708 in the last week it seemed somewhat better, but none have been as good as the 160/260s I'm usually on.  I suspect it isn't the system capability but the settings.

Be a sad outcome if the air con on the NGRs is already cranked to the max hey?  Remember there have been concerns with the air con during the acceptance period.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/952212973753257984

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/952215131563311104

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/952224645863714817

[Stillwater]

The way this project is progressing, it is likely that QR will find some makeshift, Band-Aid solution to the air-con problem.  Stand by for the Minister's media conference where he launches the QR hand-held fan -- to be distributed by 'Observers' aboard the train.  The Minister will point to the crossword puzzle on each of the fans, with the timetable for the line on the other side and he will mumble some words about each passenger being able to generate the correct stream of air for their individual needs and pretend that the fans are a superior solution as it is very difficult for the air conditioning to be adjusted to a level that suits everyone.  Nope, standby for the NGR hand-held fan.

[ozbob]

^ what worries Mr Stillwater is that there were well publicised issues with the aircon delaying acceptance
(among a myriad of other ' issues ' ). 

Has the best that can be achieved been achieved?  Is so, stand by for 30 years of sweaty armpits and crotches ...   

[#Metro]

I love how MPs cut corners to "save money" and in the process create ~ $500 million cost explosion for extra staff and vehicle alterations, wiping out all cost savings in the process, defeating the purpose of the changes and making it more expensive to boot!

I think if anyone racked up $500 million of cost overruns in private business, they would not only be promptly fired, but probably sued to pieces for gross negligence and the company would go bankrupt!!

[Otto]

I finally got to ride an NGR on Thursday ( 704 )
I sat in the end car on my first 2 trips ( both ends ) and found myself sweating and heat affected. I had been unwell during the week so that may have had an effect on how I felt. On the third trip, I sat in the 'toilet' car and found it to be noticeably cooler.
Had a chat to the Guard about the A/C and he said that the A/C console showed the system was operating within set parameters.

The seats were not too bad, although I disliked not being able to see past the seat in front of me which made me feel too enclosed and ended up looking for the seat pairs that face each other so I could have a better view out the windows plus the feeling of more space. When sitting in the 'toilet' car, I felt it was more open and enjoyable even if the seats were sideways. That will be my pick if I ever get to ride the NGR again.

Personal Opinion Only

[techblitz]

Some pros and cons of high back seats...

Cons:

• claustrophobics wont like them
• potential safety issue for a victim being overpowered while trapped or enclosed....if no-one can see from the opposite direction....then that is definitely an issue.

Pros:

• Increased privacy from snoops in the behind seat watching you surf facebook,banking etc.
• Less chance of being filmed from the opposite direction by some bored loser who has nothing better to do than film other people because of the way they sleep,dress,look.
• Ive also seen a sleeping passenger wearing sunglasses that was threated by another person from the opposite direction who thought the passenger was purposely staring at them
• Less chance of being an accidental photo-bomber in the behind seat when some social media wannabe wants to fill their daily quota of selfie uploads...
• Loud people talking on their phones wont be heard as much..

[verbatim9]

Some pros and cons of high back seats...

Cons:

• claustrophobics wont like them
• potential safety issue for a victim being overpowered while trapped or enclosed....if no-one can see from the opposite direction....then that is definitely an issue.

Pros:

• Increased privacy from snoops in the behind seat watching you surf facebook,banking etc.
• Less chance of being filmed from the opposite direction by some bored loser who has nothing better to do than film other people because of the way they sleep,dress,look.
• Ive also seen a sleeping passenger wearing sunglasses that was threated by another person from the opposite direction who thought the passenger was purposely staring at them
• Less chance of being an accidental photo-bomber in the behind seat when some social media wannabe wants to fill their daily quota of selfie uploads...
• Loud people talking on their phones wont be heard as much..

^^Good points

[red dragin]

The EMU air conditioning system probably runs on the older tree and fluffy bunny killing CO2 damaging refrigerants.

The newer gases are better for the environment, but typically less effective at cooling in comparison.

[JimmyP]

By what i've been told after havinglunch with a mate of mine yesterday after work, the NGR air con is in no way operating at max capacity at the moment. Just needs a temp setting change. By memory, he said the ac is set at 23 degrees, so maybe 21 might be better.
I've generally found the 160 and 260 trains to be very consistently decent with air con across the carriages. EMUs are way too inconsistent. While they are nice when working well, they are far too often not working well and temperatures can change dramatically from one end of a carriage to the other. Thankfully I don't get them much on my trips to work! NGR seems much the same as 160 and 260 class trains in being very consistent on the couple times i've ridden them, just need to drop the temps a degree or two I think.

[ozbob]

Yo, seems setting a couple of degrees lower on the NGRs will probably do it.

[verbatim9]

Definitely ️

[HappyTrainGuy]

I love how MPs cut corners to "save money" and in the process create ~ $500 million cost explosion for extra staff and vehicle alterations, wiping out all cost savings in the process, defeating the purpose of the changes and making it more expensive to boot!

I think if anyone racked up $500 million of cost overruns in private business, they would not only be promptly fired, but probably sued to pieces for gross negligence and the company would go bankrupt!!

Same when Newman changed QR from a GOC to Public Servants. Staff left (either on their own free will or forced out) and took their qualifications with them. Now staff had to be trained and many had to work a bunch more overtime. Staff simply couldn't be hired because of the employment freeze.

EMUs are way too inconsistent. While they are nice when working well, they are far too often not working well and temperatures can change dramatically from one end of a carriage to the other. Thankfully I don't get them much on my trips to work! NGR seems much the same as 160 and 260 class trains in being very consistent on the couple times i've ridden them, just need to drop the temps a degree or two I think.

The EMUs are consistent but it varies on a few things such as doors being opened. They suck the air in around the doors and force it to the end of the carriage and to halfway along. Its why its always nice and cool at the ends/against the windows. Very effective at dropping the temps very low and very quickly in that area which is great during summer and good at keeping them warm during winter. When they were first introduced passengers were skipping trains just to ride in the air conditioned carriages. Same with the first gen SMU and IMUs. The single ac units force the air from the middle/along the carriage. Effective at keeping the entire carriage at a constant temp but work slower to achieve it.

[ozbob]

Days since NGR 701 towed to Wulkuraka

[ozbob]

Submissions to the AHRC close today 15th January 2018



>> http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth#railway