New Generation Rollingstock

[BrizCommuter]

I honestly hope the politics of certain groups doesn't tarnish this awesome event for QLD.

Awesome? Nothing awesome about this disastrous project!

[MichaelJ]

It could have been managed better but some 'groups' have done nothing but p%ss and moan.

[BrizCommuter]

It could have been managed better but some 'groups' have done nothing but p%ss and moan.

They have very good reason to!

[ozbob]

I think it is  ' awesome ' that the windows have not been blocked by the colourful wraps!

#justsaying 

[techblitz]

buzz off Michael.....seriously......your making it blatantly clear that your p%ssed  off that inclusionmoves is speaking out.....you seem to think he has an agenda to hijack the project on purpose or something.
bzzzztttt!!

[SurfRail]

So which RailBOT members will be on the inaugural NGR service? (Wheelchair and full bladder optional).
Will try and board at Park Rd.

Me, in the rear car.

[SurfRail]

It could have been managed better but some 'groups' have done nothing but p%ss and moan.

If by "managed better" you mean "not break the law" then yes.

[tazzer9]

I honestly hope the politics of certain groups doesn't tarnish this awesome event for QLD.

Couldn't agree more.   I will still push for toilets and full DDA compliant on all services, but I would much rather 0.1% of the population be inconvenienced by not being full DDA compliant than 100% of the population being inconvenienced by not having a train to board in the first place.

[MichaelJ]

I think it is  ' awesome ' that the windows have not been blocked by the colourful wraps!

#justsaying 

I'll have to see the wrap in person but photos and videos seem to show it could have flowed a little better. Still a reasonable idea, even though I'm not 100 percent sure of the sentiment.

[Stillwater]

The state government has set itself up for litigation under the Disability Discrimination Act.  Action can be brought via a complaint from a person with a disability or someone appointed to act on their behalf.

It would involve someone in a wheelchair riding the train and attempting to use the toilets; then making a complaint to a QR official, either the guard or a station official ... about the adequacy of the toilets.

The further complaint to the AHRC must be in the approved way on the AHRC website.

The state government has legal advice that they risk prosecution.  The matter must be brought to a head through prosecution, with the ball rolling while QR does not have exemptions in place.

[MichaelJ]

I honestly hope the politics of certain groups doesn't tarnish this awesome event for QLD.

Couldn't agree more.   I will still push for toilets and full DDA compliant on all services, but I would much rather 0.1% of the population be inconvenienced by not being full DDA compliant than 100% of the population being inconvenienced by not having a train to board in the first place.

Yep, these trains will really bring QR forward into the new century and offer so many benefits to passengers and crew. As much as I love referring to QR as Australia's worst railway operator, I still think it's a day to be celebrated.

[InclusionMoves]

Guys just so you know I don't mind you being upset that in your way of thinking I personally am stopping a train. I sleep just fine at night. But a facts a fact. They are breaking the law. People with disability make up 20% of population and I have a human rights agenda not a political one.

Geoff

[tazzer9]

Is it possible that they are only putting 3 into service simply to find faults.  That these trains are still effectively in trials.  QR doesn't have enough drivers, so they are having to choose between running a non-revenue NGR train, or a real timetabled service.   Combine the two.  They still have to train staff on the NGR trains as well.   This will require extra staff and time.

[red dragin]

So, a hypothetical.

What would happen if the 3 trains in service had say temporary hording in place with 'authorized persons only' signs, that removed all access to the section of the train with the toilet.
Aside from looking terrible of course.

Would those vehicles still be in breach of the DDA? (on that issue only, assume nothing else was wrong)

[ozbob]

Interview with Inclusion Moves / Steve Austin Mornings ABC Brisbane 7th December 2017

> here!  MP3 15.5 MB

[ozbob]

So, a hypothetical.

What would happen if the 3 trains in service had say temporary hording in place with 'authorized persons only' signs, that removed all access to the section of the train with the toilet.
Aside from looking terrible of course.

Would those vehicles still be in breach of the DDA? (on that issue only, assume nothing else was wrong)

Trains are still not compliant. 

[Derwan]

So which RailBOT members will be on the inaugural NGR service? (Wheelchair and full bladder optional).
Will try and board at Park Rd.

Me, in the rear car.

Do we know what time the first NGR service will run?  (Did I miss that post?)

[tazzer9]

Guys just so you know I don't mind you being upset that in your way of thinking I personally am stopping a train. I sleep just fine at night. But a facts a fact. They are breaking the law. People with disability make up 20% of population and I have a human rights agenda not a political one.

Geoff

You are right, but i am officially one of those 20% with a disability.  But I am also an extremely fit young healthy adult and have no issue with boarding a train.   The simple fact is, the DDA laws are designed to include absolutely everyone with a disability that is leave their home or hospital.  Most people with a disability could still use that bathroom, and get past that 'narrow' walkway.   

My elderly blind grandmother could use the regular bathrooms in an XPT, with assistance from staff getting to it while the train is moving. 

[ozbob]

One can come up with all sorts of nice reasons etc. etc.

Reality is this.  QR and DTMR have made an application for a temporary exemption.  They have now chosen to disregard the law, and due process.

Good luck to them, they are going to need it.

In reality, the application for a temporary exemption could have been made a year ago.  Properly processed months ago with a researched rectification plan.  You can blame DTMR for that.  They thought they could bluff their way through it.  Don't forget, Mr Scales, DG TMR, said on radio in 2016 that he had fixed all the issues with NGR.  An incorrect statement.  I wonder why he is still DG of TMR to be frank.

[ozbob]

So which RailBOT members will be on the inaugural NGR service? (Wheelchair and full bladder optional).
Will try and board at Park Rd.

Me, in the rear car.

Do we know what time the first NGR service will run?  (Did I miss that post?)

Out of Varsity Lakes at 6.25am Derwan.   

[tazzer9]

I have noticed they have chosen that service because it only forms a park road service (and from memory this then dead runs back to beenleigh yard).  Just in case anything goes wrong its fairly isolated.

[MichaelJ]

Guys just so you know I don't mind you being upset that in your way of thinking I personally am stopping a train. I sleep just fine at night. But a facts a fact. They are breaking the law. People with disability make up 20% of population and I have a human rights agenda not a political one.

Geoff

I'm not saying your concerns are invalid because that would make me an unprofessional railway employee and an immoral human being.

We've reached a milestone (how many days has it taken Bob?) and should try to keep our positive thinking caps on.

[ozbob]

QR management aside,  I think the QR crew etc. who have been working on sorting out the NGRs ( many issues ) have worked hard and relentlessly to get them sorted.  For that I am very grateful.  Bombardier has been caught in a problem (DDA issues) not of their making.

The NGR trains do look great, and I am sure you will enjoy riding in them as will the punters.  ( I do expect some seat complaints though ).

But hey ... 

[Arnz]

Have read across various media releases/interviews that they will try to put the NGRs on the morning Varsity Lakes - Doomben - Roma Street runs as soon as more "enter" service.

[InclusionMoves]

I am being as positive as humanly possible trust me. I actually gave QR credit for how good the wrapped trains looked privately before most knew they existed as I spotted one accidentally cause I live out near Wulkuraka. I kept that quiet for them out of courtesy. Was well and truly working with them to have them accessible. Spent 3 days in the last week alone working on NGR unpaid. So yep paint me as negative by all means I totally get how you could see it that way but you have to excuse me being a tad upset that this is the treatment people with disability receive back.

Geoff   

Guys just so you know I don't mind you being upset that in your way of thinking I personally am stopping a train. I sleep just fine at night. But a facts a fact. They are breaking the law. People with disability make up 20% of population and I have a human rights agenda not a political one.

Geoff

I'm not saying your concerns are invalid because that would make me an unprofessional railway employee and an immoral human being.

We've reached a milestone (how many days has it taken Bob?) and should try to keep our positive thinking caps on.

[mufreight]

I am being as positive as humanly possible trust me. I actually gave QR credit for how good the wrapped trains looked privately before most knew they existed as I spotted one accidentally cause I live out near Wulkuraka. I kept that quiet for them out of courtesy. Was well and truly working with them to have them accessible. Spent 3 days in the last week alone working on NGR unpaid. So yep paint me as negative by all means I totally get how you could see it that way but you have to excuse me being a tad upset that this is the treatment people with disability receive back.

Geoff   

Guys just so you know I don't mind you being upset that in your way of thinking I personally am stopping a train. I sleep just fine at night. But a facts a fact. They are breaking the law. People with disability make up 20% of population and I have a human rights agenda not a political one.

Geoff

I'm not saying your concerns are invalid because that would make me an unprofessional railway employee and an immoral human being.

We've reached a milestone (how many days has it taken Bob?) and should try to keep our positive thinking caps on.

Lets be completely clear about this in relation to the disability access problems.
First these trains were designed non compliant from the start.
The Act in 2002 set out the standards for disability access, these trains were designed well after 2002 and the design was non compliant.
This non compliant design was signed off by the Newman government Treasurer Mr Nocholles and Transport Minister Mr Emmerson and the NGR project was taken out of the hands of Queensland Rail and handed to Transport and Main Roads whose lack of expertise in rail related matters has been blatentedly obvious.
That they allowed this non compliant design to proceed to the construction stage shows their lack of expertise or their absolute incompetence, further examples of why TMR should have no control over rail related projects are the non compatible signaling at Petrie for the KippaRing project which not only delayed the line being brought into service but cost millions to rectify, the pedestrian over bridge at Banyo that is non compliant and will cost more millions of our money to rectify.
Then the trains when they were landed were non compliant, there was then over 18 months before TMR finally acknowledged that they were non compliant, over that period of time nothing was done to address these faults.
Had they made moves to rectify the problems they would have had a number of these trains modified to be compliant.
In 2016 the head of TMR in a radio interview stated that the problems had been rectified then Transport Minister Trad some three months ago admits that there is a problem and it would cost some $150.000.000 to rectify.
At this time there has still not been any work done to make these trains compliant, the proposal that some (24?) trains would be fitted with two toilets and the rest would have no toilets.  Again TMR has botched the rectification.  Questions must be asked why this gold plated rectification is being resorted to when a simpler option exists that could be easily applied to all the trains yet to be built in India.
One must question why the Director General of TMR and those who oversaw the design of these non-compliant trains are still employed and why the Transport Minister still holds a Ministeral position.  Having proven beyond any doubt that they are incompetent to carry out the responsibilities of their positions having been responsible for at least a $150.000.000 hit to the public purse and these new trains being delayed in their introduction so service by over 18 months.

Inclusion Moves is fully justified in taking this matter to the Human Rights Commission.
There is no justification for an exemption to be granted for three years, an interim exemption for perhaps 20 of these trains to be placed in service for the period of the Games and they must then be withdrawn until such time as they are made compliant.

[techblitz]

150 mill as well as 18-24 months for the adjustments to be completed....

[MichaelJ]

I am being as positive as humanly possible trust me. I actually gave QR credit for how good the wrapped trains looked privately before most knew they existed as I spotted one accidentally cause I live out near Wulkuraka. I kept that quiet for them out of courtesy. Was well and truly working with them to have them accessible. Spent 3 days in the last week alone working on NGR unpaid. So yep paint me as negative by all means I totally get how you could see it that way but you have to excuse me being a tad upset that this is the treatment people with disability receive back.

Geoff

Don't worry, they (QR/TMR) poo-pooed many good Operational ideas too for unknown reasons. Features we've had in Sydney for years. Secretly, they've included some features that would also work well in Sydney.

[InclusionMoves]

Thanks Mufreight

I should explain something that probably seems weird in how I work and could seem political but actually isn't. I am fully aware it was an LNP stuff up. Been on record with that many times (gave Scott Emerson a serve on Steve Austin today). However I tend not to bother pointing that out now days cause all that does is turn it into a political fight which lands no where near trains actually being fixed. So not a political reasoning to it at all just a practical one in not wasting my time. Better to work with the Labor gov who are in power as they can actually fix it and regrettably have just jumped the gun a bit by putting them on track before the umpire (as in human rights commission) has blown their whistle,

Geoff   

I am being as positive as humanly possible trust me. I actually gave QR credit for how good the wrapped trains looked privately before most knew they existed as I spotted one accidentally cause I live out near Wulkuraka. I kept that quiet for them out of courtesy. Was well and truly working with them to have them accessible. Spent 3 days in the last week alone working on NGR unpaid. So yep paint me as negative by all means I totally get how you could see it that way but you have to excuse me being a tad upset that this is the treatment people with disability receive back.

Geoff   

Guys just so you know I don't mind you being upset that in your way of thinking I personally am stopping a train. I sleep just fine at night. But a facts a fact. They are breaking the law. People with disability make up 20% of population and I have a human rights agenda not a political one.

Geoff

I'm not saying your concerns are invalid because that would make me an unprofessional railway employee and an immoral human being.

We've reached a milestone (how many days has it taken Bob?) and should try to keep our positive thinking caps on.

Lets be completely clear about this in relation to the disability access problems.
First these trains were designed non compliant from the start.
The Act in 2002 set out the standards for disability access, these trains were designed well after 2002 and the design was non compliant.
This non compliant design was signed off by the Newman government Treasurer Mr Nocholles and Transport Minister Mr Emmerson and the NGR project was taken out of the hands of Queensland Rail and handed to Transport and Main Roads whose lack of expertise in rail related matters has been blatentedly obvious.
That they allowed this non compliant design to proceed to the construction stage shows their lack of expertise or their absolute incompetence, further examples of why TMR should have no control over rail related projects are the non compatible signaling at Petrie for the KippaRing project which not only delayed the line being brought into service but cost millions to rectify, the pedestrian over bridge at Banyo that is non compliant and will cost more millions of our money to rectify.
Then the trains when they were landed were non compliant, there was then over 18 months before TMR finally acknowledged that they were non compliant, over that period of time nothing was done to address these faults.
Had they made moves to rectify the problems they would have had a number of these trains modified to be compliant.
In 2016 the head of TMR in a radio interview stated that the problems had been rectified then Transport Minister Trad some three months ago admits that there is a problem and it would cost some $150.000.000 to rectify.
At this time there has still not been any work done to make these trains compliant, the proposal that some (24?) trains would be fitted with two toilets and the rest would have no toilets.  Again TMR has botched the rectification.  Questions must be asked why this gold plated rectification is being resorted to when a simpler option exists that could be easily applied to all the trains yet to be built in India.
One must question why the Director General of TMR and those who oversaw the design of these non-compliant trains are still employed and why the Transport Minister still holds a Ministeral position.  Having proven beyond any doubt that they are incompetent to carry out the responsibilities of their positions having been responsible for at least a $150.000.000 hit to the public purse and these new trains being delayed in their introduction so service by over 18 months.

Inclusion Moves is fully justified in taking this matter to the Human Rights Commission.
There is no justification for an exemption to be granted for three years, an interim exemption for perhaps 20 of these trains to be placed in service for the period of the Games and they must then be withdrawn until such time as they are made compliant.

[ozbob]

I have some discussions today with a few members and there does seem to be some support for putting in a submission to the AHRC to support a temporary exemption but NOT for 3 years, but a limited period so that a proper documented rectification plan can be demonstrated on a subsequent application.  This will allow NGRs to run during the Games but then the authorities would have to re-apply for an exemption. Six months initially was suggested.  I am warming to this notion.

There are real risks with a 3 year exemption in that it might just be treated as a rolling on opportunity rather than a timely fix for compliance.

[#Metro]

It should be limited to trains already in australia on the exemption date.

Otherwise it will just be licence to manufacture non compliant trains during that

time. I agree they are trying to use commonwealth games as leverage, but that only justifies

exemption for the games and not after.

Auditor General should be all over this as a cost event will be triggered and now the law allegedly infringed.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/7NewsBrisbane/status/938684418712940544

[not_available]

Those wrapped NGRs look really nice. A very nice touch. Dress it up anyway you like, it still breaches the DDA

And I agree, if there is going to be an exemption, it should only be for up to (testing, training etc.) and including the Games.

[Stillwater]

A three-year exemption is not on.  It would allow the Queensland Government to import all the train sets on order, with those trains potentially having non-compliant toilets.  Queensland would seek to manoeuvre to have the exemption apply to the whole order by virtue of the fact that the importation of all NGR trains would have occurred during the three-year exemption period.  And then we would be stuck with them for the next 30 or so years.  That's unacceptable.

A six month exemption granted by the AHRC would allow the NGR trains into service for the period of the Games and reduce the impact on all commuters in SEQ if, during the Commonwealth Games, trains would need to be diverted from other than the GC Line.

In granting a six month exemption, the AHRC should impose an order that, at the end of that six-month period, it would want to see a funded rectification plan from the State Government, otherwise it won't grant exemption beyond the initial six months.

It puts the pressure on TMR/QR to pull in their horns and work on a solution -- the opposite to their tactics to date.  By applying for an exemption at the last minute, this state's transport agencies have indicated they proposed all along to bluff their way through and around the DDA specifications (which have the authority of law under the Act).

A shot across their bow from the AHRC would cause them to pause and think.

Here's the gamble the state is playing ....

It is betting that any action brought under the DDA legislation would take months, dragging the matter into the period where the exemption (if successful) would be in place - allowing for a stay of proceedings until after the exemption period expires.

A six month exemption would get us all over the hump of the Commonwealth Games (which is the manufactured catalyst for this current debacle), but still keep the noose around the Queensland Government's neck, with the AHRC having its hand on the trapdoor lever.

[InclusionMoves]

Stillwater I have a large group I represent so obviously wont speak for them without canvasing but I do thank you and others for putting your thinking cap on but still maintaining the rage. Its a healthy mindset to have.

Missing piece in all of this is when a cabinet is finally elected then politics comes back into play (like its not there already but you know what I mean politics is more personal when there is a ministers name in the news copping flack). So thats a chess game I want to see play out too. 

Geoff

A three-year exemption is not on.  It would allow the Queensland Government to import all the train sets on order, with those trains potentially having non-compliant toilets.  Queensland would seek to manoeuvre to have the exemption apply to the whole order by virtue of the fact that the importation of all NGR trains would have occurred during the three-year exemption period.  And then we would be stuck with them for the next 30 or so years.  That's unacceptable.

A six month exemption granted by the AHRC would allow the NGR trains into service for the period of the Games and reduce the impact on all commuters in SEQ if, during the Commonwealth Games, trains would need to be diverted from other than the GC Line.

In granting a six month exemption, the AHRC should impose an order that, at the end of that six-month period, it would want to see a funded rectification plan from the State Government, otherwise it won't grant exemption beyond the initial six months.

It puts the pressure on TMR/QR to pull in their horns and work on a solution -- the opposite to their tactics to date.  By applying for an exemption at the last minute, this state's transport agencies have indicated they proposed all along to bluff their way through and around the DDA specifications (which have the authority of law under the Act).

A shot across their bow from the AHRC would cause them to pause and think.

Here's the gamble the state is playing ....

It is betting that any action brought under the DDA legislation would take months, dragging the matter into the period where the exemption (if successful) would be in place - allowing for a stay of proceedings until after the exemption period expires.

A six month exemption would get us all over the hump of the Commonwealth Games (which is the manufactured catalyst for this current debacle), but still keep the noose around the Queensland Government's neck, with the AHRC having its hand on the trapdoor lever.

[Arnz]

Looks like some of the infamous gunzels have posted on your article on the Facebook in complete defence of QR/TMR.  I'm aware we have "very enthusiastic" gunzels, but I do hope the folks concerned don't make a complete fool of themselves on Monday for the sake of the gunzeling community.

[InclusionMoves]

First rule of media relations Arnz NEVER READ THE COMMENTS :-)

According to some blokes comment on the Channel 7 video I am just out for money. Someone might want to tell that to my bank account cause it hasn't been informed.

Geoff

Looks like some of the infamous gunzels have posted on your article on the Facebook in complete defence of QR/TMR.  I'm aware we have "very enthusiastic" gunzels, but I do hope the folks concerned don't make a complete fool of themselves on Monday for the sake of the gunzeling community.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

8th December 2017

NGR exemption should be for 6 months only

Good Morning,

We know that Queensland Rail is going to introduce the NGR trains into service on Monday the 11th.  We have supported the disability sector with their concerns because they are real. We have members who are disabled and what about the disabled community at large?  It is said that up to 20% of our population have a disability. Not all disabilities are obvious.

An operator that disregards the requirements of the DDA and DSAPT and abandons due process, no matter how they perceive their justification is in our view not correct and has compromised the State of Queensland.

Accordingly, as the AHRC still has the public submission period in operation until the 15th January 2018 [ http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth ] we will be making a submission to support the exemption but only for 6 months.  This will allow the rail operator to negotiate the Commonwealth Games period and use the NGRs under real passenger load conditions.  This will allow for a more mature rectification plan to be developed.

A three-year exemption is not on in our view.  It would allow the Queensland Government to import all the train sets on order, with those trains potentially being non-compliant with respect to the DDA and DSAPT.  Queensland would seek to manoeuvre to have the exemption apply to the whole order by virtue of the fact that the importation of all NGR trains would have occurred during the three-year exemption period.  And then we would be stuck with them for the next 30 or so years.  That's unacceptable in our view.

A six month exemption granted by the AHRC would allow the NGR trains into service for the period of the Games and reduce the impact on all commuters in SEQ  during the Commonwealth Games; some trains would not need to be diverted from other lines and perhaps avoid some line closures.

In granting a six month exemption, the AHRC should impose an order that, at the end of that six-month period, it would want to see a fully funded  detailed rectification plan from the Queensland State Government, otherwise it should not grant exemption beyond the initial six months in our view.

It puts the pressure on TMR/QR to pull in their horns and work on a real solution -- the opposite to their tactics to date.  By applying for an exemption at the last minute, this state's transport agencies have indicated they proposed all along to bluff their way through and around the DDA specifications in our opinion (which have the authority of law under the Act) .

We are extremely disappointed in the DTMR's management of this project.  It has been grossly inept.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/938811871263469568

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/938818512784474112

[SurfRail]

Looks like some of the infamous gunzels have posted on your article on the Facebook in complete defence of QR/TMR.  I'm aware we have "very enthusiastic" gunzels, but I do hope the folks concerned don't make a complete fool of themselves on Monday for the sake of the gunzeling community.

Probably because the rail system is a toy for most of them rather than a means of transport or lifeline.  Something I find odd, given how many of the local enthusiast community are perenially unemployed / unemployable.