New Generation Rollingstock

[ozbob]

Media release 22 October 2017

Queensland: Call for a Commission of Inquiry into the New Generation Rollingstock Project

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has again called for a Commission of Inquiry into the botched New Generation Rollingstock train project.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"It is disturbing that Queensland's transport authorities and a succession of under-performing Governments, have managed to order new trains, the New Generation Rollingstock trains, that are not compliant with the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) (1).

"Equally perplexing is the fact that it took nearly two years for the Department of Transport and Main Roads to acknowledge that the trains are not compliant (2).  Disability Advocates have been pressing this for around two years now. Valuable time has been wasted as the trains languished out at Wulkuraka, and Transport and Main Roads personnel remained in denial.

"RAIL Back On Track has previously made a request to the Queensland Auditor General to have this projected audited. This was denied.

"There is little recourse now other than a full Commission of Inquiry.  It is clear to us that the secrecy around this project is clearly designed to protect failure within the Government bureaucracy.

"It is clear that we are in a major rail meltdown with a resolution a very distant dream. There are 15 non DDA compliant NGR trains at Wulkuraka (note we understand there are two more at the Port of Brisbane, perhaps already moved to Wulkuraka). Queensland Rail's service delivery is plagued by constant mechanical issues with the aging train fleet, which causes ongoing service cancellations and delays, let alone the timetable reductions in service already impacting severely in SEQ.  The situation is very, very grim."

"Any reasonable observer can now understand why we requested an audit into this NGR project (albeit declined) early this year.  Our previous calls for a Commission of Inquiry into this project have been ignored.  Today we again call for a Commission of Inquiry into the NGR project.

"We do not want a constant public blame game played out and dumb politics. We want the true facts and circumstances brought into the clear light of day so the monumental botch that this project represents is not repeated.

"This fact is clear: Non DDA compliant NGR trains were ordered under the previous Newman LNP Administration.

"DTMR and the present Government reluctantly finally accepted that the trains are not DDA compliant only a few months ago, despite disability advocates raising concerns for years.  An application for exemption for the non DDA compliant NGR trains to the Australian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) was made a little less than four weeks ago."

"As we understand it, the exemption application has to go to public consultation.  This is normally for around 4 weeks I am advised.  The AHRC then has to consider the consultation and then make a determination.  We expect at the earliest a possible exemption would be granted  late January or early February 2018.  Not looking too bright is it?  What happens if the AHRC determines that due to the procrastination by the authorities with respect to DDA compliance of the NGR trains and other examples of intransigence and scant regard for the DDA Legislation (e.g. building a non DDA compliant footbridge at Banyo railway station) on display in Queensland the exemption application could be refused.  What then?  Lock the toilets and seek permission to run the NGR trains on suburban lines only? Mind boggling hey?"

"Make no mistake, a series of Governments and DTMR have failed Queensland.  Let's have a Commission of Inquiry to get to the facts and truth!

"The inevitable public transport network collapse during the Commonwealth Games will be very embarrassing to say the least.

"We again call on the Government to form a Commission Inquiry into this major failure.

"The public deserve to know the level of incompetence that is transport policy in Queensland."

References:

1. Media releases from Inclusion Moves - a number
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg195056#msg195056

2. Interview Geoff Trappett OAM Inclusion Moves with Steve Austin ABC Radio Brisbane concerning DDA issues with NGR trains
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg195217#msg195217

3. Nine News Brisbane 20th October 2017



Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Media: Call for a Commission of Inquiry into the New Generation Rollingstock Projecthttps://t.co/hAgfAUKitQ#qldpol#NGRfail pic.twitter.com/6wdRFwYNPL

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) October 21, 2017

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/921789612673994752

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/921790900128268288

[ozbob]

[ozbob]

Four weeks today since application made for exemption to the AHRC for the DDA non compliant NGR trains.

[tazzer9]

NGR 705 is sitting in Mayne.  But of interest is the fact that this train looks like its about to head into service.  Seats inside are all installed, only external stickers are blue disability boarding area stickers.   There is no 'test train' or 'do not board' stickers on it.

[ozbob]

705 and one other have been provisionally accepted.  Would be running today if TMR had its act together and applied for an exemption 6 months ago.  Better still if the trains had been designed with the DDA in mind.

There are two more NGR trains at the Port of Brisbane waiting to be towed to Wulkuraka.  As I understand it 15 six car NGRs is the number that can be stored at Wulkuraka so perhaps they were making room.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/922586317917007872

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/922593247016337408

[MichaelJ]

Just loaded a boarding assistance passenger in less than 20 seconds in Sydney. They're sitting right under a camera next to a PEI and I've noted on my stopping pattern where they're seated and where they're heading. Station staff assisted boarding is the way to go!

[verbatim9]

Just loaded a boarding assistance passenger in less than 20 seconds in Sydney. They're sitting right under a camera next to a PEI and I've noted on my stopping pattern where they're seated and where they're heading. Station staff assisted boarding is the way to go!

Makes sense it's.whats done in Melbourne too. Eventually trains will go Driver only with platform improvements and assistants throughout the Network. Qld and NSW.

[MichaelJ]

It's more that delays are crucial in NSW and I'm already busy doing other tasks.  That said, I had to do one wheelchair myself because station staff were unavailable.  Instead of 20 seconds, it cost us 60-80 seconds.

[ozbob]

Exemption applications under the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (Cth)

>> http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth

Current applications for temporary exemptions

State of Queensland temporary exemption application

The Australian Human Rights Commission has received a joint application from the State of Queensland - acting through the Department of Main Roads and Transport and Queensland Rail - for temporary exemptions to the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA) and the Disability Standards for Accessible Public Standards 2002 (DSAPT).

The application is made pursuant to s 55(1) of the DDA and s 33A.1 of the DSAPT.

The exemptions are sought for a period of three years and relate to the New Generation Rollingstock trains (NGR) procured by the Queensland Government. Through temporary exemptions, the State of Queensland is seeking to undertake funded rectification work to deliver superior accessible outcomes for passengers with disability and provide improved functionality across the six-car train.

The Commission has requested further information from the applicants to assist in our public consultation process. Once the further information is received, the Commission will call for submissions from interested people and parties to respond to the application.

A copy of the application can be found below:

Application for temporary exemptions from the DSAPT and DDA - NGR Project .pdf


A copy of the Commission's guidelines for making decisions regarding temporary exemptions under the DDA can be found below:

Disability Discrimination Act Exemptions Guidelines.pdf

[ozbob]

Application for exemption on behalf of Qld Gov online. https://t.co/i0cvennXIY Disappointing it has come to this. Sector is analysing now.

— Geoff-InclusionMoves (@InclusionMoves) October 25, 2017

[ozbob]

One thing is very clear after reading the application for exemption.

The NGR trains were botched at the design stage. They were built non-compliant and arrived in Australia non compliant. For the LNP to suggest that modifications that have been done to cabs etc is the cause are arrogant lies.

[Stillwater]

A sad state of affairs.  The AHRC should push for accessible toilets on ALL NGR train sets, suburban and interurban.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

25th October 2017

NGR - State of Queensland temporary exemption application

Greetings,

From http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth

" Current applications for temporary exemptions
State of Queensland temporary exemption application

The Australian Human Rights Commission has received a joint application from the State of Queensland - acting through the Department of Main Roads and Transport and Queensland Rail - for temporary exemptions to the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA) and the Disability Standards for Accessible Public Standards 2002 (DSAPT).

The application is made pursuant to s 55(1) of the DDA and s 33A.1 of the DSAPT.

The exemptions are sought for a period of three years and relate to the New Generation Rollingstock trains (NGR) procured by the Queensland Government. Through temporary exemptions, the State of Queensland is seeking to undertake funded rectification work to deliver superior accessible outcomes for passengers with disability and provide improved functionality across the six-car train.

The Commission has requested further information from the applicants to assist in our public consultation process. Once the further information is received, the Commission will call for submissions from interested people and parties to respond to the application. ..."

A copy of the application can be found at the website.

Anyone reading the application can come to the correct conclusion that the NGR trains were designed non compliant, were built non compliant, arrived in Australia non compliant and are in fact non compliant with respect to the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA) and the Disability Standards for Accessible Public Standards 2002 (DSAPT).

The LNP's feeble arguments that the cab modifications that have been necessary since the trains arrived to allow tall drivers to see out of the cabs etc.  are related to the NGR's non compliance with the DDA and DSAPT are nonsense.

We will be making a submission when the AHRC calls for them.

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/923070754253455360

[InclusionMoves]

Thanks all for your support on this issue. Disability sector will also be making submission protesting the application for exemption. There seems to be no reason for non compliance other than, we didn't have an answer or we knew we didn't have time to make design changes so ran with what we had in hopes exemption would come through.

Neither are acceptable. There is no technical or financial reason identified as to why a compliant train could not have been produced from the outset. AHRC must send a strong message that procurement needs to take into account DSAPT and DDA. Ignorance is not a valid excuse to then cry exemption at a later date.

Key criteria AHRC look for is whether the exemption is inkeeping with the objects of the DDA. Ignorance and obfuscation for 2 years (noting the timeline that steps from mock up viewings in 2014, our raising of issue with then Minister Trad in 2015 and then a gap of 2 years to final admission that there are issues in 2017) can not be seen as furthering the objects of the DDA.

Allowance of this exemption will dilute the DDA and DSAPT to the point of ridicule.

Geoff         

Sent to all outlets:

25th October 2017

NGR - State of Queensland temporary exemption application

Greetings,

From http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth

" Current applications for temporary exemptions
State of Queensland temporary exemption application

The Australian Human Rights Commission has received a joint application from the State of Queensland - acting through the Department of Main Roads and Transport and Queensland Rail - for temporary exemptions to the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA) and the Disability Standards for Accessible Public Standards 2002 (DSAPT).

The application is made pursuant to s 55(1) of the DDA and s 33A.1 of the DSAPT.

The exemptions are sought for a period of three years and relate to the New Generation Rollingstock trains (NGR) procured by the Queensland Government. Through temporary exemptions, the State of Queensland is seeking to undertake funded rectification work to deliver superior accessible outcomes for passengers with disability and provide improved functionality across the six-car train.

The Commission has requested further information from the applicants to assist in our public consultation process. Once the further information is received, the Commission will call for submissions from interested people and parties to respond to the application. ..."

A copy of the application can be found at the website.

Anyone reading the application can come to the correct conclusion that the NGR trains were designed non compliant, were built non compliant, arrived in Australia non compliant and are in fact non compliant with respect to the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA) and the Disability Standards for Accessible Public Standards 2002 (DSAPT).

The LNP's feeble arguments that the cab modifications that have been necessary since the trains arrived to allow tall drivers to see out of the cabs etc.  are related to the NGR's non compliance with the DDA and DSAPT are nonsense.

We will be making a submission when the AHRC calls for them.

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[Stillwater]

There is a thimble and pea trick going on here.  That portion of the NGR fleet that will be used on suburban runs will have the toilet removed.  This is explained as being acceptable, because there are other suburban network trains with out toilets.

Yet trains with toilets running on the suburban network was the standard that was set when the NGR trains were ordered, presumably so that QR could shut down toilets at stations.

We have the classic case of QR doing a half-arse job.  Ordering toilets for all trains in the new fleet, but only managing to get toilets into half of them.

If we accept this mess, it means trains going into service for the next 20 years won't have DDA compliant toilets, or any toilets at all.  Is that what we want?   I hope the AHRC does not allow the exemption.

That will show up QR's arrogance on this issue.

[SABB]

Stillwater
I think that you mean TMR. QR has a very limited role in this project after it was taken from them during Anna Bligh's reign. QR is the operator, not the owner of the trains. QR's role in this project is to provide the driver (which is another story).

[InclusionMoves]

Just to clarify the proposed exemption runs for 3 years after which point it is expected trains will be compliant (some already existing narrow gauge related exemptions not withstanding). Always a chance they will do a bait and switch and have the temporary exemption period then during it "find" some technical reason why it can't happen. But they would be very brave to try this with this much attention on it.

Am on the fence whether the toilet removal was a QR or TMR issue. Yes TMR is budget holder but QR doesn't seem to have put up much of a fight to try and keep them. So not sure they can simply claim the "but TMR told us we have to" excuse,

Geoff   

There is a thimble and pea trick going on here.  That portion of the NGR fleet that will be used on suburban runs will have the toilet removed.  This is explained as being acceptable, because there are other suburban network trains with out toilets.

Yet trains with toilets running on the suburban network was the standard that was set when the NGR trains were ordered, presumably so that QR could shut down toilets at stations.

We have the classic case of QR doing a half-arse job.  Ordering toilets for all trains in the new fleet, but only managing to get toilets into half of them.

If we accept this mess, it means trains going into service for the next 20 years won't have DDA compliant toilets, or any toilets at all.  Is that what we want?   I hope the AHRC does not allow the exemption.

That will show up QR's arrogance on this issue.

[#Metro]

The purpose of the DDA and AHRC is to ensure that DDA is upheld.

The AHRC understands that, for historical or practical reasons, this is not always possible within a given timeframe, and so

some concession is made.

However, the AHRC has been set up to reject exactly the case QR is presenting before the AHRC.

NEW vehicles should be DDA compliant. End of story. There is no wiggle room there IMHO.

On this basis, AHRC would reject the application, I expect.

[Arnz]

There is a thimble and pea trick going on here.  That portion of the NGR fleet that will be used on suburban runs will have the toilet removed.  This is explained as being acceptable, because there are other suburban network trains with out toilets.

Yet trains with toilets running on the suburban network was the standard that was set when the NGR trains were ordered, presumably so that QR could shut down toilets at stations.

We have the classic case of QR doing a half-arse job.  Ordering toilets for all trains in the new fleet, but only managing to get toilets into half of them.

If we accept this mess, it means trains going into service for the next 20 years won't have DDA compliant toilets, or any toilets at all.  Is that what we want?   I hope the AHRC does not allow the exemption.

That will show up QR's arrogance on this issue.

I think you meant TMR.  QR had nothing to do with the ordering of the NGR or the specs of the train,  nor do they own the NGR. 

QR were stripped of any involvement in the NGR process during the Bligh and Newman eras by handing it entirely to the TMR (who also managed the Kippa-Ring fiasco that was entirely managed by the Newman government), and QR was only allowed to be involved in the NGR process after the current government got into power.   

The process was done entirely by the TMR.  So if you want to blame anyone for arrogance, direct it to the TMR. 

[ozbob]

This a primary TMR botch of massive proportions.  #headsmustroll

[ozbob]

Media release 22 October 2017 re-released 26th October 2017

Queensland: Call for a Commission of Inquiry into the New Generation Rollingstock Project

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has again called for a Commission of Inquiry into the botched New Generation Rollingstock train project.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"It is disturbing that Queensland's transport authorities and a succession of under-performing Governments, have managed to order new trains, the New Generation Rollingstock trains, that are not compliant with the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) (1).

"Equally perplexing is the fact that it took nearly two years for the Department of Transport and Main Roads to acknowledge that the trains are not compliant (2).  Disability Advocates have been pressing this for around two years now. Valuable time has been wasted as the trains languished out at Wulkuraka, and Transport and Main Roads personnel remained in denial.

"RAIL Back On Track has previously made a request to the Queensland Auditor General to have this projected audited. This was denied.

"There is little recourse now other than a full Commission of Inquiry.  It is clear to us that the secrecy around this project is clearly designed to protect failure within the Government bureaucracy.

"It is clear that we are in a major rail meltdown with a resolution a very distant dream. There are 15 non DDA compliant NGR trains at Wulkuraka (note we understand there are two more at the Port of Brisbane, perhaps already moved to Wulkuraka). Queensland Rail's service delivery is plagued by constant mechanical issues with the aging train fleet, which causes ongoing service cancellations and delays, let alone the timetable reductions in service already impacting severely in SEQ.  The situation is very, very grim."

"Any reasonable observer can now understand why we requested an audit into this NGR project (albeit declined) early this year.  Our previous calls for a Commission of Inquiry into this project have been ignored.  Today we again call for a Commission of Inquiry into the NGR project.

"We do not want a constant public blame game played out and dumb politics. We want the true facts and circumstances brought into the clear light of day so the monumental botch that this project represents is not repeated.

"This fact is clear: Non DDA compliant NGR trains were ordered under the previous Newman LNP Administration.

"DTMR and the present Government reluctantly finally accepted that the trains are not DDA compliant only a few months ago, despite disability advocates raising concerns for years.  An application for exemption for the non DDA compliant NGR trains to the Australian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) was made more than four weeks ago. This application is now available at the AHRC web site [ http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth ]."

"As we understand it, the exemption application has to go to public consultation.  This is normally for around 4 weeks I am advised.  The AHRC then has to consider the consultation and then make a determination.  We expect at the earliest a possible exemption would be granted  late January or early February 2018.  Not looking too bright is it?  What happens if the AHRC determines that due to the procrastination by the authorities with respect to DDA compliance of the NGR trains and other examples of intransigence and scant regard for the DDA Legislation (e.g. building a non DDA compliant footbridge at Banyo railway station) on display in Queensland the exemption application could be refused.  What then?  Lock the toilets and seek permission to run the NGR trains on suburban lines only? Mind boggling hey?"

"Make no mistake, a series of Governments and DTMR have failed Queensland.  Let's have a Commission of Inquiry to get to the facts and truth!

"The inevitable public transport network collapse during the Commonwealth Games will be very embarrassing to say the least.

"We again call on the Government to form a Commission Inquiry into this major failure.

"The public deserve to know the level of incompetence that is transport policy in Queensland."

References:

1. Media releases from Inclusion Moves - a number
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg195056#msg195056

2. Interview Geoff Trappett OAM Inclusion Moves with Steve Austin ABC Radio Brisbane concerning DDA issues with NGR trains
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg195217#msg195217

3. Nine News Brisbane 20th October 2017 -

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Sent to all outlets:

25th October 2017

NGR - State of Queensland temporary exemption application

Greetings,

From http://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth

" Current applications for temporary exemptions
State of Queensland temporary exemption application

The Australian Human Rights Commission has received a joint application from the State of Queensland - acting through the Department of Main Roads and Transport and Queensland Rail - for temporary exemptions to the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA) and the Disability Standards for Accessible Public Standards 2002 (DSAPT).

The application is made pursuant to s 55(1) of the DDA and s 33A.1 of the DSAPT.

The exemptions are sought for a period of three years and relate to the New Generation Rollingstock trains (NGR) procured by the Queensland Government. Through temporary exemptions, the State of Queensland is seeking to undertake funded rectification work to deliver superior accessible outcomes for passengers with disability and provide improved functionality across the six-car train.

The Commission has requested further information from the applicants to assist in our public consultation process. Once the further information is received, the Commission will call for submissions from interested people and parties to respond to the application. ..."

A copy of the application can be found at the website.

Anyone reading the application can come to the correct conclusion that the NGR trains were designed non compliant, were built non compliant, arrived in Australia non compliant and are in fact non compliant with respect to the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (DDA) and the Disability Standards for Accessible Public Standards 2002 (DSAPT).

The LNP's feeble arguments that the cab modifications that have been necessary since the trains arrived to allow tall drivers to see out of the cabs etc.  are related to the NGR's non compliance with the DDA and DSAPT are nonsense.

We will be making a submission when the AHRC calls for them.

Best wishes,

Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/923230062643515392

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/923231734484701184

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/923283052830134272

[SABB]

In Summary
- the NGR trains are not DDA compliant
- the NGR trains won't be DDA compliant in time for the 2018 Commonwealth Games
- the State Government is applying for a DDA exemption to run the non-compliant trains
- this Forum generally opposes the granting of the exemption

Exactly what does this Forum want to happen (transport wise) before and during the Commonwealth Games.
This situation looks very much like a Lose - Lose outcome for all.

What is the best way out of this mess ?

[ozbob]

In Summary
- the NGR trains are not DDA compliant
- the NGR trains won't be DDA compliant in time for the 2018 Commonwealth Games
- the State Government is applying for a DDA exemption to run the non-compliant trains
- this Forum generally opposes the granting of the exemption

Exactly what does this Forum want to happen (transport wise) before and during the Commonwealth Games.
This situation looks very much like a Lose - Lose outcome for all.

What is the best way out of this mess ?

Individual members have every right to express their point of view.  You can make a submission to the AHRC too SABB when they call for them.

As I have stated this morning on facebook (   https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/1822910407723138 ) ...

Our position is we want the trains truly fixed. I agree there has been plenty of time to sort the DDA issues in actual fact. The authorities played games for years, I am sure the AHRC will consider that. There is no guarantee that the AHRC will grant an exemption. However I have read the guidelines etc. and they suggest that if there is a rectification plan they may well grant a temporary exemption.

What concerns me greatly though is the temporary exemption going to be a pathway to a permanent exemption? The AHRC must be very clear on this point should a temporary exemption be granted. TMR does not come across as really being honest and transparent IMHO. They could say, oh, we have discovered that making the NGRs DDA compliant it will now cost a lot more than we first thought ( > $150 Million) heck, we better apply for a permanent exemption on the grounds of justifiable hardship.

We must guard against that possibility.  This point will be part of my submission.


That is my chief concern.  IM has alluded to this as well above ( see > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg199567#msg199567 ).

I think the exemption will be granted (eventually, probably early 2018).   But to be honest having the NGRs available is really not going to change things a great deal for the GC2018 rail timetables.  The major limitation is train crew.

Another small point worth noting.  Initially the plan was for a two year temporary exemption, that has already grown to three years.

[InclusionMoves]

Echoing Ozbobs words of course and in addition I do want to thank members for their support on behalf of the disability sector. I am well aware that there will be members who will disagree with opposition to the exemption application as it will mean a diminishing of service. I have all the respect for you in the world. However all I ask in return is respect that we are looking after PWD in a long term game where AHRC must send a clear and strong sign to anyone looking to procure transport modes that the DSAPT is not optional and temporary exemptions are not there as a back up plan in the case of policy failure and bureaucratic bumbling,

Thanks
Geoff 

In Summary
- the NGR trains are not DDA compliant
- the NGR trains won't be DDA compliant in time for the 2018 Commonwealth Games
- the State Government is applying for a DDA exemption to run the non-compliant trains
- this Forum generally opposes the granting of the exemption

Exactly what does this Forum want to happen (transport wise) before and during the Commonwealth Games.
This situation looks very much like a Lose - Lose outcome for all.

What is the best way out of this mess ?

Individual members have every right to express their point of view.  You can make a submission to the AHRC too SABB when they call for them.

As I have stated this morning on facebook (   https://www.facebook.com/RAILBackOnTrack/posts/1822910407723138 ) ...

Our position is we want the trains truly fixed. I agree there has been plenty of time to sort the DDA issues in actual fact. The authorities played games for years, I am sure the AHRC will consider that. There is no guarantee that the AHRC will grant an exemption. However I have read the guidelines etc. and they suggest that if there is a rectification plan they may well grant a temporary exemption.

What concerns me greatly though is the temporary exemption going to be a pathway to a permanent exemption? The AHRC must be very clear on this point should a temporary exemption be granted. TMR does not come across as really being honest and transparent IMHO. They could say, oh, we have discovered that making the NGRs DDA compliant it will now cost a lot more than we first thought ( > $150 Million) heck, we better apply for a permanent exemption on the grounds of justifiable hardship.

We must guard against that possibility.  This point will be part of my submission.


That is my chief concern.  IM has alluded to this as well above ( see > https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg199567#msg199567 ).

I think the exemption will be granted (eventually, probably early 2018).   But to be honest having the NGRs available is really not going to change things a great deal for the GC2018 rail timetables.  The major limitation is train crew.

Another small point worth noting.  Initially the plan was for a two year temporary exemption, that has already grown to three years.

[SABB]

As IM has said to MichaelJ in the past - I don't have a dog in this fight.  I agree that the NGR trains should have been DDA compliant from the outset. However, no amount of blaming is going to change the fact that they are not.
All that I was saying was that there is a need for compromise on BOTH sides. This may have happened during IM's discussions with TMR (?).

[InclusionMoves]

I actually don't care for the blame of the past that will come out with enquiry for me what we are doing fighting exemption is about setting up a better future just sad that it will mean some short term pain now. Sector already is dealing with how we are going to get fair and equitable treatment in terms of boarding without a central guard so yep fair to say compromises already have been made. I am going to get "GC2018 is not a free pass for us to be forced to compromise on EVERYTHING" tattooed on my forehead if need be.

Geoff

As IM has said to MichaelJ in the past - I don't have a dog in this fight.  I agree that the NGR trains should have been DDA compliant from the outset. However, no amount of blaming is going to change the fact that they are not.
All that I was saying was that there is a need for compromise on BOTH sides. This may have happened during IM's discussions with TMR (?).

[ozbob]

Anyone know if the two NGRs recently at the Port of Brisbane (viz 716 & 718) have made it to Wulkuraka yet?

It does appear it might be a couple of months yet before NGRs start running ( assuming temporary exemption granted ) so I am wondering where they will move the extra (provisionally accepted ) sets to.  I assume there might be more NGRs on the way too as importing has resumed apparently.  Some NGRs have been at Mayne of late.

I am not sure if they can squeeze anymore into Wulkuraka.

[ozbob]

NGRs 716 & 718 might be moved tomorrow from the port.

[InclusionMoves]

Somebody remind me to steer clear of the train and drive tomorrow if there are NGR's on the loose 

NGRs 716 & 718 might be moved tomorrow from the port.

[ozbob]

I am sure the trains will be under control.   

[ozbob]

Days since NGR 701 towed to Wulkuraka

[tazzer9]

Does anyone know the real reason why only 35 of the 75 trains will come with two proper toilets instead of them all?   Is it a money issue, or is it public spin where they can say they have added x number of seats/passengers to the network as adding toilets does decrease available space for seats.

[techblitz]

well the general public will automatically assume it to be distance related........ trains doing long distance services to be duo toileted.....the rest for inner services......so yeah I say spin while also minimising costs...

[SurfRail]

In their defence, I don't really have a big issue with metropolitan rolling stock not having a toilet.  35 NGRs and 28 IMU160s is more than enough for intercity services, plus the 14 x 100s/120s for as long as they are still about.  Relatively few people commute on an all stations train from one side of town to the other.

Ideally, all 75 would have 2 toilets, but I actually think 2 toilets on those equipped is a better outcome.  One toilet for 6 cars is insufficient.

[ozbob]

Just noting that NGR MU 16 and MU 18 were towed to Wulkuraka today.