New Generation Rollingstock

[ozbob]

V/Locitys are nice units.  Attempts to trial a 3'6" version here in Queensland thwarted by the anti-rail road centric bureaucracy   ... that has to change!

Haven't heard much from the recently elected LNP members, so vocal in opposition about sorting the Sunshine Coast line -  looks like they are just one term wonders to me ...   

[Stillwater]

Ozbob, can you expand on the actions of the anti-rail lobby to thwart trial of the 3"6" V/Locities in Qld?

[ozbob]

Was stopped at TMR ...

[Gazza]

As Stillwater said, how/why did TMR stop it?

What was the story behind the proposal anyway?

[somebody]

I'm really not sure why we'd want DMUs in SEQ.  Heading north, the line is electrified to Rockhampton - so no need.  Heading west, Rosewood-Gatton-Helidon would become possible, but I don't see Toowoomba as that is far better served by the unsubsidised bus services.  Let's leave that system alone!

So patronage between Rosewood and Helidon would have to justify the service.  That's just not happening.  It makes far more sense to just use buses IMO.

[ozbob]

All I know was that a proposal was prepared by Queensland Rail, Bombardier indicated  a unit could be provided for around $18 million.  Was to be trialled on all lines.

[ozbob]

I'm really not sure why we'd want DMUs in SEQ.  Heading north, the line is electrified to Rockhampton - so no need.  Heading west, Rosewood-Gatton-Helidon would become possible, but I don't see Toowoomba as that is far better served by the unsubsidised bus services.  Let's leave that system alone!

So patronage between Rosewood and Helidon would have to justify the service.  That's just not happening.  It makes far more sense to just use buses IMO.

DMUs would be very useful, not only in SEQ but in other regional centres ....

Other jurisdictions manage fine. 

The electrification to Rockhampton is possibly on borrowed time ...  think about it ...

[#Metro]

I'm really not sure why we'd want DMUs in SEQ.  Heading north, the line is electrified to Rockhampton - so no need.

Er, I'm sure they have EMU versions or similar that would reach the same speeds and do the same job. Point was to get rid of ICE trains.

[somebody]

The electrification to Rockhampton is possibly on borrowed time ...  think about it ...

Removing the electric tilt to Rockhampton?  I'd be surprised.

I'm really not sure why we'd want DMUs in SEQ.  Heading north, the line is electrified to Rockhampton - so no need.

Er, I'm sure they have EMU versions or similar that would reach the same speeds and do the same job. Point was to get rid of ICE trains.

The RTT already does this.

[ozbob]

The cost of the electric OHT is born by Queensland Rail. 

Electric tilts can be converted.  When ever there is an issue DEL + carriages runs anyway.

Unless freight switches back to electric locos (unlikely)  it is a cost that cannot continued to be justified.

The 3900s were flogged off ... 

[ozbob]

Services to Gatton and Helidon would work well.  A lot of growth out that way and a number of trip generators.

But with the Queensland mindset, let them kill themselves on the roads ...

[ozbob]

Gatton and Helidon could be serviced by hybrid electric MUs.  These units run underwires and stored battery power / with kinetic charging beyond the wires.

[ozbob]

Gatton and Helidon could be serviced by hybrid electric MUs.  These units run underwires and stored battery power / with kinetic charging beyond the wires.

Oh, I forgot we are in Queensland.  Re phrase that,  BB181/4s and Sx sets would do the job fine ...

[somebody]

Gatton and Helidon could be serviced by hybrid electric MUs.  These units run underwires and stored battery power / with kinetic charging beyond the wires.

Electric cars have been said to be range challenged.  What's to be different with battery powered trains?  Ok, they only need to go a shortish distance (60km each way).

Know of anywhere that this has been done?

[ozbob]

Queensland can be the first ...

http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/commuter-and-regional-trains/hybrid-multiple-units/agc?docID=0901260d80010382

[somebody]

Queensland can be the first ...

http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/commuter-and-regional-trains/hybrid-multiple-units/agc?docID=0901260d80010382

That's diesel/electric hybrid.  Not battery power.

[ozbob]

You don't say, can also run on hybrid ...

As I said Queensland can be the first.

[Stillwater]

Images:

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=AGC+train&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=8MkoUN6eB4neigfI4YDADw&ved=0CFIQsAQ&biw=1434&bih=795

[ozbob]

KuMoYa E995 series battery railcar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NE_Train#KuMoYa_E995_fuel-cell.2Fbattery_hybrid_railcar

As battery charging technology advances, similar units to these could be very handy.  Quick recharge at turnaround, back to the wires ...

[Stillwater]

Check out the video in this info-package:

http://www.nationalcorridors.org/videos/videopage-agc.html

Be good to ride this to Zone 25 (Maryborough)

[somebody]

KuMoYa E995 series battery railcar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NE_Train#KuMoYa_E995_fuel-cell.2Fbattery_hybrid_railcar

As battery charging technology advances, similar units to these could be very handy.  Quick recharge at turnaround, back to the wires ...

If that came to the western line, I'd run to Ipswich.  The run in from Rosewood would give enough time to charge batteries and the 4 platforms at Ipswich makes it relatively easy to have interchange there.  Presumably, it could also get through the Victoria Tunnel too.

I'd still be surprised.

And Just because the Rockhampton line doesn't have the 3900s any more doesn't at all guarantee that the wires will be de-energised.  AFAIK that hasn't happened in Sydney on the freight lines even a decade after the 86s were retired.

[ozbob]

http://www.queenslandrail.com.au/networkservices/buildingandmaintainingournetwork/pages/queenslandrailcitynetworkfleetexpansion.aspx

No recent updates ...

[Stillwater]

Mufreight raises an interesting point.  How can we check that all New Generation Rollingstock will be toilet-equipped?

[somebody]

Mufreight raises an interesting point.  How can we check that all New Generation Rollingstock will be toilet-equipped?

I'd be surprised if they are.  Do they need to ALL be?  They need to increase the numbers of toilet equipped trains, but not by 150 units.

[ozbob]

Yes, I thought there would be two different sets, as per IMU/SMU  but the SMU more metro like and the IMU more interurban like if that makes sense ..

[somebody]

There seems to be a trend in Qld away from having too many differences between the interurban and suburban fleets.  Not sure if the NGR will reverse that.

[ozbob]

At the rolling stock focus group at Roma St 2009, they were talking two completely different sets, but I don't think it will be like that.

The SMU equivalent will have less seats than present, no toilets.  The IMU version will have toilets, more seats and be more suited to longer runs.

All trains will have two doors, this was confirmed by QR at CRG a while back.  But you never know, could change ...

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yeah. I thought it would be similar to the last order of IMU160 and SMU260. Same basic model of train just with different seating arangments and toilets to seperate the two. Keeps all the components and spares on hand easy to sort out unlike the mess currently with spare parts being needed for basically each model of train eg brake pads.

Apparently the mtce facility out past Ipswich was to be the mtce depot for the NGR. Hence the big price tag. No mtce facility. No NGR.

[SurfRail]

Would it be possible to design the car bodies around the presence of a third door (ie fitted for but not with)?

I would be leaning towards "no", because the door placement for the existing 2 would probably be closer to each end of the car.

I think they should just do it.  If need be, just lock the middle door at all but the inner-city stations and other selected places (eg Milton, Nerang, Robina, Boondall etc for special events) until the curved platforms are either fixed or the relevant stations closed/merged/redesigned.  It's only of great assistance when you need to clear larger crowds quickly, like in peak or at a footy match.

[mufreight]

At present the doors are effectively aligned with the bogie centres, moving the doors outwards fron the centre of the carriage would pose problems with the gap between the carriage and platform on curved platforms, a middle door would also suffer the same problems of an excessive gap, worst example Park Road platform 3 and platform 4 which is considered to be unsafe and is out of use.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Mate, even if you write stuff on the door, have PIDS and onboard announcments people will still be like WTF why isn't the door opening. You see it all the time when there are locked stickers on the doors handles/buttons/windows or when the train pulls into the station and they stand at the left hand side door despite the platform announced and being on the right hand side. You'd also lose 16 seats per car. Otherwise exiting via the middle would be slower/more difficult compared to the doors on the carriage ends

And EMU motor car is just over 23m long. Its ~4.7m from the carriage end to the first doorway. The doorway is ~1.4m wide (~1.2-1.3m for actual clearence). ~10.8m from doorway to doorway. ~1.4m for the second doorway and then another ~4.7m to the carriage end. Seat spacing is roughly 81cm (seat back to seat back) with the middle 4 seats that face each other being ~1.65m (seat back to seat back). Normal seats are ~93cm wide. You might be able to put a single seat next to each door but it would be better to remove the seats and swap the next set of seats around so its |[ [ [ ]_Door_[ ]_Door_[ ]_Door_[ ] ] ]|

[mufreight]

Ok What if,
- trains come with three doors,
- outer two where they are now. Inner door is in centre and only opens at busy stations, predetermined and written in big writting on the door (both sides)
- Of all the city stations, I think only Roma st has a curved platform. Would it be too curved?

Next how much would it speed trains up? QR trains are slightly smaller than there southern 3 door'ed cousins, 82 seats/car for EMU vs 89 for 3 door Hitachi. You would need to remove at a guess about 8 seats per car, maybe 12 to fit the doors.

Is it worth it?

There would be a similar reduction in station dwell times if the platforms were at carriage floor height and when a passenger who currently requires assistance to board the train could do so without requiring that assistance which extends dwell times.

[#Metro]

Everything is a huge pain in qld. It's called next generation but it is going to be restricted by last generation design of the network.

I think three doors is the way to go for city services. ideally there should be no humps, you would raise the platform or with three doors add an extra hump. It might sound expensive but remember that most stations aren't dda and will need to be upgraded *anyway*.

[SurfRail]

I'd like to know how Melbourne somehow manages to survive with curved platforms and in many cases, even on ruler straight platform faces, vertical gaps as bad as Indooroopilly or South Bank (eg at Richmond) - and yet, zero guards and 3 doors as standard on everything except the Siemens sets.

[mufreight]

I'd like to know how Melbourne somehow manages to survive with curved platforms and in many cases, even on ruler straight platform faces, vertical gaps as bad as Indooroopilly or South Bank (eg at Richmond) - and yet, zero guards and 3 doors as standard on everything except the Siemens sets.

Any curved platforms on the Melbourne system are of a much greater radius than platforms here. 
The majority of platforms there are at carriage floor level, and the horizontal gaps would be less than 150mm with most rollingstock.
If you care to take a tape measure and start checking.   

[ozbob]

From the Queensland Times 5th March 2013 page 3

New train depot set to put 200 jobs on track

[ozbob]

http://statements.qld.gov.au/Statement/2013/3/5/train-deal-a-win-for-queenslanders

Minister for Transport and Main Roads
The Honourable Scott Emerson

Train deal a win for Queenslanders

The Newman Government has delivered a win for Queenslanders by engaging the private sector to deliver 75 new six-car trains.

Transport and Main Roads Minister Scott Emerson said the New Generation Rollingstock program would be delivered using an availability payment public-private partnership finance option.

"Proponents will seek financing from the private sector rather than government fully funding the project – the same model used successfully for the Gold Coast Rapid Transit and Sunshine Coast University Hospital projects," Mr Emerson said.

"We are currently in the final bidding phase with the two committed proponents Bombardier Transportation Australia and AdvanceRail – a consortium comprising Mitsubishi Corporation and Construcciones y Auxiliar de Ferrocarriles (CAF) – to award the contract.

"Our focus is on value for money and we are looking for innovation from both bids.

"The project is the largest ever single investment by Queensland in trains and will see a significant increase to the train fleet to meet the growing demand for rail services in south east Queensland.

"The New Generation Rollingstock project is a new way for government to order trains by taking a partnership approach with the private sector to design, build, provide ongoing maintenance and financing."

The project is being delivered by the Department of Transport and Main Roads, with Projects Queensland providing commercial and project management responsibilities, and Queensland Rail providing technical input to integrate the new trains with the existing network.

The Request for Proposals closed in mid-2011 and after an evaluation of the responses, two proponents were considered suitable to progress to the final stage of the competitive bidding process.

The contract includes maintenance of the trains for a period of around 30 years, as well as construction and maintenance of a modern, purpose built maintenance centre at Wulkuraka in Ipswich. A contract is expected to be awarded later this year with delivery of the new trains to start about two years later.

[ozbob]

6 car x 75 = 450 carriages ...

[Stillwater]

"with the private sector to design, build, provide ongoing maintenance and financing."

So the Wulkuraka facility will be privately-owned?  With employees employed by a private company, not QR?

[ozbob]

Yes.  Land would be leased I expect.