New Generation Rollingstock

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/885624540658679808

On in a few minutes ... ABC Radio Brisbane

[ozbob]

^ interview Geoff Trappett OAM InclusionMoves with Steve Austin ABC Radio Brisbane concerning DDA issues with NGR trains.

> here! MP3 4.3 MB

[ozbob]

Relevant to end of interview ^

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/885639011598872576

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/885639163160141824

[Stillwater]

There is no unjustifiable hardship defence.  The courts would throw it out.  DDA has teeth! 

Queensland Government always sliders, always looking to do things in slap-dash manner, on the cheap.  It is false economy, as we always seem to have to spend extra rectifying the problem rather than dealing with it appropriately and properly in the first instance.

[InclusionMoves]

There is no unjustifiable hardship defence.  The courts would throw it out.  DDA has teeth! 

Queensland Government always sliders, always looking to do things in slap-dash manner, on the cheap.  It is false economy, as we always seem to have to spend extra rectifying the problem rather than dealing with it appropriately and properly in the first instance.

Agreed Stillwater. We couldn't believe it when the TMR consultant bought it up. You lose the chance to use it when you artificially let the bill run higher through inaction. Plus you can't use it for narrow gauge when your train is actually already below the current narrow gauge exemption width in the aisleway.     

Geoff 

[verbatim9]

^ interview Geoff Trappett OAM InclusionMoves with Steve Austin ABC Radio Brisbane concerning DDA issues with NGR trains.

> here! MP3 4.3 MB

Not taking sides but what happens when Trains go Driver Only and later Driverless? In Melbourne Driver only scenerio people with disabilities board at the front of the train with help of the driver. Some stations there too still require a ramp,  Re no toilets on the train there except for V line. Not sure where Perth people board with disabilities surely the same scenario as Melbourne.
SA is also DOO off peak. If a National disability act were to be upheld all these examples would be brought up in court.

I guess the bathroom module could be fitted at the end of the train but there are pros and cons regarding that.

Rather have the 200million spent on raising platforms where needed on Gold Coast/Airport lines and Ipswich/Sunshine coast lines and run those lines as Driver only with the new rail stock. Plus employ a few customer service staff 7am-9pm or later where needed?

Line of sight scenarios that have been brought up in the recording can be rectified with platform mirrors and video screens/cameras that allows the driver or guard to view the whole platform and every train door inside and out while the train is stationary. These are in use on Melbourne platforms with line of sight issues.

[ozbob]

Until there is ATP you can forget about DOO.

The NGR trains have to be made compliant. We deal with actuality not hope.

[verbatim9]

Just regarding compliance they is no law to state that the new rolling stock require a bathroom facility right? The toilet is just an extra. Keep guards at the back install a foldable ramp. People who require help to board can board at the rear of the train with guard. Other states don't have toilets on all their trains.

Isn't there a Grace/Phase in period when all Public Transport in Qld needs to be accessible by all?

[ozbob]

This has been dealt with before.  Even without toilets they are still not compliant.

To introduce these trains with closed off locked toilets would be political suicide (yeah I know you could say we have gone past that point that already).

But toilets are required as these trains will be used on long inter-urban runs.  Without, there will need to be regular compulsory toilet stops.

Stop looking for excuses.  The trains ARE NOT DDA COMPLIANT.  Fact.  They need to be fixed.  They will be running for at least 32 years (when finally introduced to revenue passenger service), probably longer.

TMR now acknowledges that are not compliant and are looking at fixes.

As I understand it (InclusionMoves might comment later) the existing exemptions for non-DDA compliance relate to old equipment/infrastructure but needs to be addressed by 2021 from memory. New equipment/infrastructure needs to be compliant from day one.

[Stillwater]

I once flew in a RAAF Hercules.  When I inquired about the on-board toilet, I was directed to a large funnel at the back of the craft, the big opening facing inside the plane, the small opening emptied outside.  It was crude, but worked. 

[#Metro]

This has been dealt with before.  Even without toilets they are still not compliant.

To introduce these trains with closed off locked toilets would be political suicide (yeah I know you could say we have gone past that point that already).

But toilets are required as these trains will be used on long inter-urban runs.  Without, there will need to be regular compulsory toilet stops.

Stop looking for excuses.  The trains ARE NOT DDA COMPLIANT.  Fact.  They need to be fixed.  They will be running for at least 32 years (when finally introduced to revenue passenger service), probably longer.

TMR now acknowledges that are not compliant and are looking at fixes.

As I understand it (InclusionMoves might comment later) the existing exemptions for non-DDA compliance relate to old equipment/infrastructure but needs to be addressed by 2021 from memory. New equipment/infrastructure needs to be compliant from day one.

If you don't have a toilet, that too is likely discriminatory under indirect discrimination provisions. Women with children could bring an action against QR in that circumstance.

You can't just change a nappy in the carriage.

[verbatim9]

I am not really looking for excuses for the new trains just stating what is really. If I wanted the trains compliant for myself. I would have advocated a half a carriage for push bike space storage all through the day including peak for active commuting.

[InclusionMoves]

Let me try and explain this in a legible fashion. There are hard built environment issues (read this as widths and dimensions not just airy fairy "we want it this way" issues) with the train that are making them non compliant. These are principally lack of width in the aisle between carriage 3 and 4. This is below even the narrow gauge exemption that QR has so that is a huge fail. Lack of space next to the toilet in the bathroom again this is a non compliance of a hard measurement one that there is no wiggle room on. We have put forward to TMR ways of redesigning bathroom (basically moving toilet to a different wall) which helps with this area. These are absolute non compliance which must be fixed.

As for closing toilets off I am sure lawyers could argue about this FOREVER regarding whether that makes it compliant or not but fact is as has been said its (a) political suicide and (b) unless it is short trips they are needed. Imagine them running on com games runs with a dirty great big sign saying "closed" just can't see it happen. And (c) there are other design issues so would be a stop gap solution in the extreme to fix say the aisle and leave the toilet alone.

Now guard positioning is a little more complicated and we must not only look at train design but also platform design. They both work together. The guard position in current trains on track now sit in the middle this lines up with the raised boarding position on stations where that is the only raised portion (also where tactile indicators are for vision impaired and a host of other accessible features that would be exorbitant to move) . So makes sense for it to be there. If you move guard to end of train then you get (a) lines of sight issues (yes I grant you some could be taken care of with mirrors etc but do we really want a billion dollar project held together by use of mirrors?) (b) travel time for guard to move from end of train to center to provide assistance would mean minutes per stop would need to be accounted for in timetable. Which leaves us with only the middle guard position as a workable result. I simply do not believe the scenario of station staff providing assistance will work as it is only part of their job so that means the chance of them getting caught doing another part of their job and missing someone, involves communication from station to station which doesn't happen now (had someone yesterday on a train for a full hour and only as they arrived at the destination station did it occur to staff the lift was out). Over and above this though the cost of extra staff from first to last is manageable with one line but exorbitant when trains are on all lines.                 

^ interview Geoff Trappett OAM InclusionMoves with Steve Austin ABC Radio Brisbane concerning DDA issues with NGR trains.

> here! MP3 4.3 MB

Not taking sides but what happens when Trains go Driver Only and later Driverless? In Melbourne Driver only scenerio people with disabilities board at the front of the train with help of the driver. Some stations there too still require a ramp,  Re no toilets on the train there except for V line. Not sure where Perth people board with disabilities surely the same scenario as Melbourne.
SA is also DOO off peak. If a National disability act were to be upheld all these examples would be brought up in court.

I guess the bathroom module could be fitted at the end of the train but there are pros and cons regarding that.

Rather have the 200million spent on raising platforms where needed on Gold Coast/Airport lines and Ipswich/Sunshine coast lines and run those lines as Driver only with the new rail stock. Plus employ a few customer service staff 7am-9pm or later where needed?

Line of sight scenarios that have been brought up in the recording can be rectified with platform mirrors and video screens/cameras that allows the driver or guard to view the whole platform and every train door inside and out while the train is stationary. These are in use on Melbourne platforms with line of sight issues.

[InclusionMoves]

Oh and forgot to say that the final deadline for accessibility of public transport in the disability standards for accessible public transport is 2022 not including any exemptions. So given the 35 year lifetime of NGR that takes away that option even without looking into the technicalities of new stock needing to be accessible at the time its built etc. So that argument fails on many levels.

Geoff

[verbatim9]

°°Cool thanks was curious about the deadline.

[InclusionMoves]

°°Cool thanks was curious about the deadline.

No problem its complicated stuff that always have an element of "marketing spin" thrown in on the odd occasion it reaches the media. Which makes it doubly hard to follow cause its a topic that doesn't come up often.

Geoff

[ozbob]

Media release 15 July 2017

Queensland: Call for a Commission of Inquiry into the New Generation Rollingstock Project

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has called for a Commission of Inquiry into the botched New Generation Rollingstock train project.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"It is disturbing that Queensland's transport authorities, lead by the incompetent former Newman  LNP Government, have managed to order new trains, the New Generation Rollingstock trains, that are not compliant with the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) (1).

"Equally perplexing is the fact that it took nearly two years for the Department of Transport and Main Roads to acknowledge that the trains are not compliant (2).  Disability Advocates have been pressing this for around two years now. Valuable time has been wasted as the trains languish out at Wulkuraka, and Transport and Main Roads personnel remained in denial.

"RAIL Back On Track has previously made a request to the Queensland Auditor General to have this projected audited. This was denied.

"There is little recourse now other than a full Commission of Inquiry.  It is clear to us that the secrecy around this project is clearly designed to protect failure within the Government bureaucracy.

"It is clear that we are in a major rail meltdown with no resolution in sight. There are 15 non DDA compliant NGR trains at Wulkuraka and the rest (60) are overseas because importation of the new trains was ceased last April. Queensland Rail's service delivery is plagued by constant mechanical issues with the aging train fleet, which causes ongoing service cancellations and delays, let alone the reductions in service already impacting severely in SEQ.  The situation is very, very grim.

"The inevitable public transport network collapse during the Commonwealth Games will be very embarrassing to say the least.

"We call on the Government to form a Commission Inquiry into this major failure.

"The public deserve to know the level of incompetence that is transport policy in Queensland."

References:

1. Media releases from Inclusion Moves - a number
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg195056#msg195056

2. Interview Geoff Trappett OAM Inclusion Moves with Steve Austin ABC Radio Brisbane concerning DDA issues with NGR trains
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg195217#msg195217

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/885908954710122497

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/885909571604107264

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/885911940387577856

[Stillwater]

QR and the state government would have spent those 2 years exploring every possible avenue to circumvent the DDA, with that being the focus (i.e. how can we get around the law) rather than redesigning and rebuilding.  It is the nature of the beast.

[ozbob]

QR and the state government would have spent those 2 years exploring every possible avenue to circumvent the DDA, with that being the focus (i.e. how can we get around the law) rather than redesigning and rebuilding.  It is the nature of the beast.

Probably there is bit of truth to that.  Without a proper inquiry we will never know with certainty.



Why are the incompetents who have been managing this project not yet dismissed?   

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/886631535306092544

[MichaelJ]

I'd like to know the source of the incorrect statistic that 50 percent of boarding assistance pax are left behind in Sydney.

[Stillwater]

If true, the next train in Sydney comes along 5-10 mins later.  Miss a train or a connection in SEQ and the delay could be 2 hrs.  In fact, on reduced services Sundays on the SCL, a two-hour interval between trains is actually scheduled into the timetable by QR.

[MichaelJ]

The service frequency down here makes it less of an issue than in QualityRail land.

However, given the hybrid Station Staff/Guard boarding assistance model, it will
Be unlikely that passengers requiring boarding assistance will be left behind and delays to services incurred. At times, when Station Staff are providing assistance, that person is loaded and ready to go before the able-bodied passengers (all using the one door).

A passenger requiring boarding assistance is welcome to sit in any carriage they choose on the Sydney/NSW Trains Network and there's space in every carriage to accomodate a wheelchair, walking frame, pram or other walking aid. However, the preferred location is rear of Car 6 (halfway between a Guard in the middle and rear).

I agree, however, that QR needs to examine platform design. It doesn't work well in many instances at the moment - that includes those stupid humps.

[ozbob]

From Couriermail > http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/brisbane-cross-river-rail-date-delivery-a-bridge-too-far/news-story/b597081c19faae0e2d73d4128b554335

TRAINS OFF TRACK AS YEAR-LONG TESTING PROCESS FAILS

TEN state-of-the-art passenger trains have not chugged along a single kilometre of track up to seven months after being shipped to Queensland.

Another five trains delivered under the State Government's $4.4 billion New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) program have not cleared testing about a year after arriving from India.

This is despite collectively travelling at least 57,666km during on-track testing since the delivery of the first train on February 16 last year, newly released details reveal.

The details of the NGR testing and commissioning program were released in a reply by Deputy Premier Jackie Trad (pictured) to a question on notice from the Opposition.

The first of the 75 trains ordered from manufacturer Bombardier were slated to be rolled out on the network from 2016. But most of the 15 trains to arrive have not entered "dynamic testing". This includes trains that arrived as far back as last December.

Dynamic testing is one of three testing stages before trains can be given "provisional acceptance". Opposition spokesman for Transport Andrew Powell said the program was "hopelessly off-track" and tied it to the Government's management of the QR timetable debacle

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/887355329373061120

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/887358800407154688

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/887359945271791616

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

19th July 2017

Oh dear - Not Going Right trains gets worse!

Good Morning,

This little piece in the Couriermail today is enlightening.  Thank you Kelmeny Fraser and the State Opposition.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/brisbane-cross-river-rail-date-delivery-a-bridge-too-far/news-story/b597081c19faae0e2d73d4128b554335



This is a shocker of a botched project.  How come the clowns who managed to achieve this major blunder have not been dismissed?

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ Attached:  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg195147#msg195147 ]

[ozbob]

Media release 15 July 2017 re-released 19 July 2017

Queensland: Call for a commission of Inquiry into the New Generation Rollingstock Project

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport passengers has called for a Commission of Inquiry into the botched New Generation Rollingstock train project.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"It is disturbing that Queensland's transport authorities, lead by the incompetent former Newman  LNP Government, have managed to order new trains, the New Generation Rollingstock trains, that are not compliant with the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) (1).

"Equally perplexing is the fact that it took nearly two years for the Department of Transport and Main Roads to acknowledge that the trains are not compliant (2).  Disability Advocates have been pressing this for around two years now. Valuable time has been wasted as the trains languish out at Wulkuraka, and Transport and Main Roads personnel remained in denial.

"RAIL Back On Track has previously made a request to the Queensland Auditor General to have this projected audited. This was denied.

"There is little recourse now other than a full Commission of Inquiry.  It is clear to us that the secrecy around this project is clearly designed to protect failure within the Government bureaucracy.

"It is clear that we are in a major rail meltdown with no resolution in sight. There are 15 non DDA compliant NGR trains at Wulkuraka and the rest (60) are overseas because importation of the new trains was ceased last April. Queensland Rail's service delivery is plagued by constant mechanical issues with the aging train fleet, which causes ongoing service cancellations and delays, let alone the reductions in service already impacting severely in SEQ.  The situation is very, very grim.

"The inevitable public transport network collapse during the Commonwealth Games will be very embarrassing to say the least.

"We call on the Government to form a Commission Inquiry into this major failure.

"The public deserve to know the level of incompetence that is transport policy in Queensland."

References:

1. Media releases from Inclusion Moves - a number
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg195056#msg195056

2. Interview Geoff Trappett OAM Inclusion Moves with Steve Austin ABC Radio Brisbane concerning DDA issues with NGR trains
https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg195217#msg195217

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

This is a disaster this botched project. 

[Stillwater]

The 15 trains have travelled a total of 57,666km collectively?  Not one paying passenger on board any one of them? 

Here's a challenge -- can the government focus on one, reconfigure one train set to be DDA compliant? Presumably there are other design and operational issues that the public does not know about because the government and their agencies refuse to issue documents under RTI.

Just one.  Call it symbolic.

And if the state government can't get just one of the NGR trains into service, what hope for the remaining 74?

Are we seeing a scenario where Queensland does not take delivery of any of the NGR trains, due to design faults, pays some sort of default payment and then leaves the manufacturer to flog off the trains to another country with less stringent design criteria?  Bombardier is then given some sort of 'booby prize' (Sunshine Coast Light Rail maybe) ... and we start all over again on the ordering of new units, off the shelf to shorten delivery times?

[#Metro]

So, these are the trains that will go into service just before the Commonwealth Games right?

And after 12 months they have not been tested?

How is that going to work? I can't really see a DDA-unlawful and UNTESTED set of trains being put on the rail network for

something as big and important as the Commonwealth Games.

[SurfRail]

So, these are the trains that will go into service just before the Commonwealth Games right?

And after 12 months they have not been tested?

How is that going to work? I can't really see a DDA-unlawful and UNTESTED set of trains being put on the rail network for

something as big and important as the Commonwealth Games.

Acceptance testing of an individual train is different to certification of the type. 

That aside, they had better work out what needs to happen ASAP, otherwise it will probably be Evans cars and BETYs for some suburban services for all we know.

[cartoonbirdhaus]

They had better work out what needs to happen ASAP, otherwise it will probably be Evans cars and BETYs for some suburban services for all we know.

Does Auckland still have many of those diesels left (apart from the ones used between Papakura and Pukekohe)? 

[ozbob]

From Estimates thread over in the land of polyticks .. FYI

https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/documents/hansard/2017/2017_07_19_EstimatesIPC.pdf

Page 39

Mrs MILLER: I have a couple of brief questions for the director-general. Mr Scales, at the outset
I would like to thank you for getting back to me in relation to the estimates last year, even though it was
two weeks ago. Mr Scales, could you please advise me whether there were any consultants employed
to provide advice concerning the Disability Discrimination Act and the new generation rolling stock? If
there were any consultants, who were they? What payments were made to date and what is the
expected payments?

Mr Scales: I thank the member for Bundamba for the question. On new generation rolling stock
we have just appointed an independent consultant to look at the access side. I do not have the details
of how much we are paying the lady, but if the DP will allow me I can take that on notice.

Mrs MILLER: Is the lady Margaret Stack?

Mr Scales: That sounds about right.

Mrs MILLER: As we know, the new generation rolling stock is out at Wulkuraka, in Ipswich.
Director-General, could you advise me and the committee as to who will have to pay to alter the contract
to fix these trains to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act and who will have to pay to alter the
design faults, to the best of your knowledge?

Mr Scales: I thank the member for Bundamba for the question. Clearly, if it is an issue that is a
specification problem then the supplier will have to do that. If it is a modification that we institute as a
state through the Department of Transport and Main Roads then we would have to pay for that. As we
said earlier in the hearing, we are still undergoing that process is.

Mrs MILLER: Getting back to my previous question about the consultant, how long would that
contract be and can you provide us with the terms of reference for that consultant's work?

Mr Scales: With the DP's allowance, I will take that on notice. I can certainly get that for you

====================

After nearly two years a paid consultant is brought in to look at the DDA issues with NGR?

Why was the Queensland Rail Accessibility team concerns not noted?

[HappyTrainGuy]

They weren't expecting QR to be here as a government division when the NGR arrived

[ozbob]

They weren't expecting QR to be here as a government division when the NGR arrived

Yep, the LNP are being very deceitful as to their true motives when in Government.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Queensland Government claim problems with New Generation Rollingstock trains are fixed

July 19, 2017 3:34pm

THE state's beleaguered New Generation Rollingstock trains are closer to finally making it on the rails, with key problems plaguing them fixed, the Queensland Government says.

But there's still no date for service or any idea of how much extra design changes will cost taxpayers.

Transport Minister Jackie Trad said the trains' braking issues had now been stabilised, issues with the sightlines from the drivers' cab had been fixed, and the heating, ventilation and airconditioning system was now up to scratch.

"We are continuing to engage and work together with the disability sector to address concerns raised about the train's accessibility and functionality," she told an estimates committee.

Ms Trad has insisted the trains will be operation by the end of 2017.

But Transport and Main Roads director-general Neil Scales said he could not give an exact date yet.

Asked to detail how much extra it would cost to address design issues for disability access, Mr Scales said that amount was not known as nothing yet had been agreed to.

He said earlier changes that needed to be made to the drivers' cab to improve driver comfort had cost a "negligible" amount".

He said it was "difficult" to quantify the figure in the context of the $4.4 billion project.

Commenting on what a standard train would travel in testing before entering service, Mr Scales gave a figure of 500km.

But some trains did as many as 40,000km before they entered service in the industry, he said.

Figures provided show five NGR trains have already clocked between 24,420km and 5,950km each, and 10 others had done no on-track testing.

Meanwhile, Ms Trad announced Queensland Rail would open external recruitment for more drivers from next month, which was a key recommendation from the Strachan report on fixing mass crewing shortfalls.

Twenty-eight of the 200 drivers needed have so far graduated.

Ms Trad said full external recruitment would bolster the 107 others currently in training.

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/887715488532357120

[HappyTrainGuy]

Ummm. 500km normally? Yes. But that's acceptance testing once the trains are well into final production. The initial Perth sets and QR models racked up a lot of km during their initial testing which uncovered numerous faults such as the air con overdimensions and traction motors. Coming from overseas they'll be doing extensive testing as it can be a costly and take a long time to fix errors. Sounds like the jurno is trying to spin a story out of that.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/888072518312919040

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/888073228928786432

[ozbob]

Days since NGR 701 towed to Wulkuraka