New Generation Rollingstock

[Stillwater]

I didn't know you are an accredited member of the Media, mufreight.  However, your experience goes to show, once again, that this is all about managing public perception around NGR trains and not actually putting in the hard yards to fix the problem in accordance with the law.  It smells all the more like a dirty fix that may well and truly come unstuck - with taxpayers having to foot the bill for what's required.  Anyone would think there is an election around the corner.

Perhaps, to pass the time of day, we should start sending Jackie Trad some inane tweets along the lines of those being churned out for CRR.  How about: Are you a uni student about to graduate?  You will be just in time to catch a NGR train to Centrelink to apply for the old age pension.'

[ozbob]

Hey Mr Stillwater, this inane enough!   

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/878141209960620032

[Stillwater]

^ lol 

[InclusionMoves]

Hi all, Statement from QR.

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/about%20us/Media%20Centre/Media%20Releases/Pages/New-trains-to-first-service-the-Airport-and-Gold-Coast.aspx

This was told to us during a meeting early this morning with both TMR and QR in attendance. TMR has also agreed to work with us to look at design options (many mentioned in this thread) to move to a compliant train.

This was termed as a "fresh start" from TMR we are concerned there still seems to be some non negotiable design changes that TMR will not allow though as is evidence through this release where it is assumed the guard location will not change from rear of train. So our fresh start is still very much in its infancy, time will tell.

In its defense though QR had to go with what they had. Our issue is it still seems there is a lack of transparency from TMR's side. 

Worth noting this boarding model will still face many of the same challenges that the current arrangement on current fleet does. It is by no means perfect. As has been our point all along that staffing solutions should be phased out not phased in to be relied upon. Each instance of human error is a potential DDA complaint.

But this is where we are today. Where we are next week we shall see,

Geoff

[ozbob]

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/about%20us/Media%20Centre/Media%20Releases/Pages/New-trains-to-first-service-the-Airport-and-Gold-Coast.aspx

New trains to first service the Airport and Gold Coast

27/06/2017

Customers on the Airport and Gold Coast lines will be the first to experience the New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) fleet, when they enter passenger service.

Queensland Rail Chief Executive Officer Nick Easy said the Gold Coast and Airport lines had been chosen to meet higher patronage demand and provide improved customer service during the 2018 Gold Coast Commonwealth Games.

"Visitors from every corner of the globe will be coming to the Gold Coast for the 2018 Commonwealth Games and we plan to have our newest, most advanced train fleet operational to serve them," Mr Easy said.

"Given the different design of the NGR fleet, with the guard located at the end of the train rather than the middle, the way we provide boarding assistance to our customers will change.

"We have considered this closely and have thoroughly consulted with our people, stakeholders and the disability sector to ensure all customers will continue to be well supported.

"The assisted boarding point will remain in the middle of the platform, so the key change as part of the operating model is that station staff, rather than the guard, will provide assistance to customers when boarding the NGR train.

"To support this change, stations on the Gold Coast and Airport lines will be staffed by customer service employees from first service to last service, which also supports our commitment to becoming a customer-first organisation.

"Twenty-one additional station roles will join our existing team of 650.

"As well as being able to provide increased assistance to customers, this change will also mean amenities like ticket windows and toilets will be open for significantly longer periods – something our customers have told us they would like to see.

"Our customers' safety and satisfaction are our highest priorities and I am confident that this change will deliver improvements in both of those areas."

Mr Easy said Queensland Rail continued to work closely with stakeholders including the Department of Transport and Main Roads who are working to address design issues with the new NGR fleet.

"Whilst this work is underway it is important that we continue to prepare our network so that they enter service seamlessly this year," he said.

[ozbob]

My initial reaction to this is one of muted disappointment.  What happens with the full NGR fleet is in operation?

Jobs  jobs  jobs .... 

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/879586956174163969

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/879586611536609280

[#Metro]

Increases operating costs, and odd chance that staff forget remains.

But it is practical for short term.

Don't know how this changes the toilet issues, so I suspect QR goes with the locked loo option.

[ozbob]

What a monumental mess!

[ozbob]

I met with Daniel Bowen, Tony Morton & Jennifer Williams (PTUA reps) today.

They were rather incredulous when I took them through the NGR tale ...

[InclusionMoves]

Increases operating costs, and odd chance that staff forget remains.

But it is practical for short term.

Don't know how this changes the toilet issues, so I suspect QR goes with the locked loo option.

This is something we will explore with TMR next week. Like I said they proclaimed "fresh start" but then other things were said which seemed contradictory or at least constraining to that term. So I don't have steam coming from my ears YET but check in next week when we have more of an idea of what the non negotiable design aspects for TMR are,

Geoff

[verbatim9]

Excuse the nativity but are most platforms at stations on the Gold Coast line level with the new trains. Is assistance still required if platforms are level with trains?

[mufreight]

Hi all, Statement from QR.

https://www.queenslandrail.com.au/about%20us/Media%20Centre/Media%20Releases/Pages/New-trains-to-first-service-the-Airport-and-Gold-Coast.aspx

This was told to us during a meeting early this morning with both TMR and QR in attendance. TMR has also agreed to work with us to look at design options (many mentioned in this thread) to move to a compliant train.

This was termed as a "fresh start" from TMR we are concerned there still seems to be some non negotiable design changes that TMR will not allow though as is evidence through this release where it is assumed the guard location will not change from rear of train. So our fresh start is still very much in its infancy, time will tell.

In its defense though QR had to go with what they had. Our issue is it still seems there is a lack of transparency from TMR's side. 

Worth noting this boarding model will still face many of the same challenges that the current arrangement on current fleet does. It is by no means perfect. As has been our point all along that staffing solutions should be phased out not phased in to be relied upon. Each instance of human error is a potential DDA complaint.

But this is where we are today. Where we are next week we shall see,

Geoff

I might be excused a measure of scepticism but it looks like a snow job to me, consider the point that TMR would have been aware that the NGR trains were not disability compliant at the time of their design as the minimum requirements for disability access were law prior to the trains being designed.
Next the first of the trains has been in the country for over 15 months and for that time despite the Minister, TMR, Translink and the NGR project team having repeatedly been made aware that the trains are physically non compliant all of these offices have refused to acknowledge that the trains are non compliant.
It is only today that they have publicly advised their intentions in terms of assisted boarding for the NGR trains, something that has taken over 15 months despite having known foe over 3 years that the guards would be at the rear of the NGR trains.
The only legal solutions to the disability access for the toilet and the access between carriages 3 and 4 is a redesign of the toilet module, not rocket science, there is no physical reason why they can not be made compliant yet TMR supposedly in only now investigating solutions to the failure.
That the designs were signed of on has been another example of the incompetence of the TMR staff involved from the drafts men through to the senior management, in a private company they would by now all have been given their marching orders, it must however be remembered that these were the much touted half price trains ordered by then LNP Transport Minister Emerson and Treasurer Nichols and they were designed on the cheap to be driver only trains, that the current government has not addressed the problems in any meaningful way and has shrouded the execution of this project in a less than transparent veil of secrecy has done nothing for public confidence in the ability of the current government to manage a chook raffle. 

[mufreight]

Excuse the nativity but are most platforms at stations on the Gold Coast line level with the new trains. Is assistance still required if platforms are level with trains?

Short answer after Beenleigh yes but between South Brisbane and Beenleigh NO.

[verbatim9]

Excuse the nativity but are most platforms at stations on the Gold Coast line level with the new trains. Is assistance still required if platforms are level with trains?

Short answer after Beenleigh yes but between South Brisbane and Beenleigh NO.

Would it be wise to work on the other stations to make the platforms level after the games? Loganlea, Altandi, Park Road, Southbank, South Brisbane and Bowen Hills?

[Arnz]

Altandi and South Brisbane had their platforms raised to train door height long ago.

[InclusionMoves]

For discussion around NGR platform height is largely irrelevant. As yes some people can use a level platform with no issues yet some still need assistance so staff need to be ready to assist regardless. There will be lots of "good news" stories around platform upgrades coming out and ofcourse I fully support them. However there are legislated responsibilities to make stations accessible within a timeline so its a matter of woohoo good for you you did what you needed to do in most cases,

Geoff 

[verbatim9]

All in all it's step forward and good to see the new trains coming into service. Driver only Operation, sustainable staffing levels and frequency of trains off peak to a standard that people in SEQ expect, hopefully will come into fruition over the years to come.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/879637642689650688

[ozbob]

Inclusion Moves (above) have stated their immediate concerns.  Aside from the DDA compliance issues there are other related factors.

1.  What is being done with the remaining trains on order?  The 60 (with a possible option for a further 25).  Are these to be modified before being imported?

2.  Will the present 15 sets in country be modified once the remaining (compliant?) trains are in service?

3.  Despite the feel good notions of extra staff on stations from first to last service, this is really a high cost labor solution for a failed design problem.  Seriously, does anyone really think that this staffing model is actually economically sustainable for the longer term? QR is already a very expensive service provider and these additional labour costs will work against improved service frequencies in my opinion.

Inclusion Moves have highlighted the fact that the looming games deadline is really the pressure point for the trains (however flawed) to be brought into service.  We have very serious concerns with the ability of QR to deliver adequate services now, let alone during the games.

Queensland Rail is only trying to do what they can.  The real issue has been the botched design and scant regard to concerns raised by us and others for years.

As I said above, this is a monumental mess.  It is time to bite the bullet and get the trains configured correctly.

Half baked projects, have long term consequences ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/879747854352265216

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/879748750830297088

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/SmartState1/status/879838322843033600

[ozbob]

Can non-DDA compliant NGR trains actually be introduced to service?

:conf

[Gazza]

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/879637642689650688

I agree with most of that tweet, except for the issue about guards being relocated.

Many, myself included, have advocated for guards to be removed all together, so that implies no staff member in the middle of the train going fowards into the future anyway.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Rollout of QR's problem trains delayed to 'before the Games'

Queensland Rail's new trains – much-delayed and with issues still being ironed out – are set to be rolled out before next year's Commonwealth Games.

But it is yet to be announced when exactly the New Generation Rollingstock will finally be ready for commuters.

The new trains will first enter passenger service on the Airport and Gold Coast lines.

QR chief executive officer Nick Easy said the two lines were chosen to meet higher patronage demand during the April 2018 Gold Coast Commonwealth Games.

Mr Easy said visitors were coming from around the world and the newest, most advanced trains would be operational for them.

"Given the different design of the NGR fleet, with the guard located at the end of the train rather than the middle, the way we provide boarding assistance to our customers will change," he said.

"The assisted boarding point will remain in the middle of the platform, so the key change as part of the operating model is that station staff, rather than the guard, will provide assistance to customers when boarding the NGR train."

As a result, stations on the Gold Coast and Airport lines will be staffed by customer service employees from first to last service, with 21 extra people employed.

The rollout of the new $4.4 billion Bombardier passenger trains has been much-delayed and marred with problems.

The first NGR trains were due to be operational by mid-2016, but delivery was halted in March 2017, following the discovery of significant issues.

There were problems with braking, airconditioning, ventilation, sight lines for drivers, guard space and disability access.

In March, there were 13 NGR trains already in Queensland, with two more set to arrive.

The delivery halt remains, and there is yet to be a timeline announced for the roll-out of the first NGR passenger services or the full roll-out.

The Newman government ordered the 75 half-price trains in 2014, with the expectation all the trains would be delivered and in service by December 2018.

The Commonwealth Games has been identified as a "stress period" on the QR network, according to a review of the train timetable.

Meanwhile, residents will be asked to reduce non-essential travel and travel outside peak hours during the Games.

The Commonwealth Games Transport Operations Plan states people will also be asked to use public transport, cycle or walk small distances and take alternate routes when driving.

No spectator parking will be provided at major competition venues for security reasons and to minimise the risk of congestion, and where viable, walking and cycling will be the main way spectators and workers access events, followed by free public transport.

Commonwealth Games Minister Kate Jones said the plan included a network of park'n'ride sites, shuttle buses and extra public transport services.

Park'n'ride sites will be free, but need to be pre-booked, and there will be changes to some bus routes and bus stops.

Taxis and ride-sharing companies will also be available to ferry spectators to Games events.

Opposition Transport spokesman Andrew Powell was critical of the transport plan, saying it was late and created less clarity for residents and spectators.

In May, Fairfax Media revealed details of the Commonwealth Games public transport plan including hubs and park'n'rides.

[#Metro]

^^ This is bad news.

The NGR rollout has been extending and extending and extending the date of introduction.

Now that date has come up against a wall - the Commonwealth Games - where the units have to be in service (or face problems).

It is difficult to believe that the units will be in service by then - all it takes is one more delay and suddenly the #RailFail has extended

into the games period.

All of this does not bode well for the International Olympic Committee (IOC) if they are considering a bid from South East Queensland.

[tazzer9]

Im in wellington at the moment trying out on the PT here.  (Making use of the trolleybus before its political murder).   You guys think the DDA issues on the NGR is bad.   You need to see the new trains here.    Only half of each 2 car set is accessable because the trains have been designed for such low platforms, there is a step up to the train.   The floor over the bogies is raised.   On the positive, they ride incredibly well.   Very smooth although only has a low top speed.

[BrizCommuter]

Looks like Nick Easy is just another spin doctor trying to cover up the high stuff up that is the NGR. Can't believe Neil Scales still has a job.

Im in wellington at the moment trying out on the PT here.  (Making use of the trolleybus before its political murder).   You guys think the DDA issues on the NGR is bad.   You need to see the new trains here.    Only half of each 2 car set is accessable because the trains have been designed for such low platforms, there is a step up to the train.   The floor over the bogies is raised.   On the positive, they ride incredibly well.   Very smooth although only has a low top speed.

Wellington trains are accessible though, you just have to choose the right door (which is clearly marked).
Plenty of staff too - inefficient!

[SurfRail]

Wellington trains are accessible though, you just have to choose the right door (which is clearly marked).
Plenty of staff too - inefficient!

Maybe so, but their operaing costs are somewhere well below $100m pa and they have around 50% cost recovery.

[#Metro]

Im in wellington at the moment trying out on the PT here.  (Making use of the trolleybus before its political murder).   You guys think the DDA issues on the NGR is bad.   You need to see the new trains here.    Only half of each 2 car set is accessable because the trains have been designed for such low platforms, there is a step up to the train.  The floor over the bogies is raised.   On the positive, they ride incredibly well.   Very smooth although only has a low top speed.

Is it like Sydney? With the double deck trains, a wheelchair fits into the mezzanine level only.

[ozbob]

^^ This is bad news.

The NGR rollout has been extending and extending and extending the date of introduction.

Now that date has come up against a wall - the Commonwealth Games - where the units have to be in service (or face problems).

It is difficult to believe that the units will be in service by then - all it takes is one more delay and suddenly the #RailFail has extended

into the games period.

All of this does not bode well for the International Olympic Committee (IOC) if they are considering a bid from South East Queensland.

Very sad situation all round.  I can only hope that the remaining trains on order will be altered to be DDA compliant and with a central guard facility.  The proposed staffing solution is high cost and not really sustainable as the number of NGRs ramps up.

The conditioning of the public has started.  Restrict out of peak travel ..  why?

Because there will be massive service reductions no doubt.

The Government should have turfed the entire ELT and Board last November.  Appointed a railway commissioner and get to work sorting it out.  The NGR issues have been known for years and only now they are starting to sort?  TMR staff should go as well.  This is a shocker.

[ozbob]

Looks like Nick Easy is just another spin doctor trying to cover up the high stuff up that is the NGR. Can't believe Neil Scales still has a job.

Agree.  Something very seriously wrong this project right from the inception and management.

[Cazza]

^Getting close to the big 500!

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

1st July 2017

New Generation Rollingstock - DDA compliance concerns - Design botched?

Good Morning,

The New Generation Rollingstock saga rolls on.  Now 497 days since NGR 701 was towed to Wulkuraka.

1.  What is being done with the remaining trains or order, yet to be imported?  The 60 (with a possible option for a further 25).  Are these to be modified before being imported?

2.  Will the present 15 sets in country be modified once the remaining (compliant?) trains are in service?

3.  Despite the feel good notions of extra staff on stations from first to last service, this is really a high cost labor solution for a failed design problem.

Seriously, does anyone really think that this staffing model is actually economically sustainable for the longer term? Queensland Rail is already a very expensive service provider and these additional labour costs will work against improved service frequencies in our opinion.

Inclusion Moves have highlighted the fact that the looming games deadline is really the pressure point for the trains (however flawed) to be brought into service ( https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/879637642689650688 ).  We have very serious concerns with the ability of Queensland Rail to deliver adequate services now, let alone during the games. Another Sunday reduced service timetable tomorrow for example.

Queensland Rail is only trying to do what they can in coming up with an operating model for the NGR trains.

The real issue has been the botched design and scant regard to concerns raised by us and others for years. Was due diligence exercised by bureaucrats as this project developed?

This New Generation Rollingstock project is clearly a monumental mess.  It is time to bite the bullet and get the trains configured correctly.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ Attached:  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg194375#msg194375 ]

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/880834459519418368

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/880835237885788161

[ozbob]

I can only hope that the Queensland Audit office agrees to audit this project.

It is simply too easy for the Palaszczuk Government to blame the Newman Government.  What is needed is an independent forensic examination of the entire project with particular emphasis on the design - how that was done and who ended up approving it.  I have little doubt that Bombardier has built the trains to the design submitted.  The LNP do appear to be somewhat reluctant to explore this botched project in any depth, no doubt there were issues under their command and this perhaps is in their minds.  The present government appear to have been slow to recognise that there were issues and react appropriately.  The only way we will find out I fear is by audit.  Presently the NGR project is a wall of silence. RTIs being constantly opposed - this suggests a cover-up of course.  So be it.  You make your bed, you will lie in it.

An outrage really.  It is after all the good citizens of Queensland paying for this botch, and we have a just and clear right to know what all the circumstances are.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/881022396253192192

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/881569717739151360

[ozbob]

Days since NGR 701 towed to Wulkuraka

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/881920057160290304

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/881920815499014144

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/881923652979089408

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/881924647326961664