New Generation Rollingstock

[Stillwater]

We are having this debate, well and good, and we are examining the issue every which way.  What's lacking?
Leadership and the facts.  The government  and minister are not showing leadership by taking the public that paid for these trains, into its confidence, explaining the issues and the steps being taken internally to overcome them.  The options are not out in the open for all to consider.  Gee, there might even be someone in the public who could offer advice if the detail was shared.  It is being held internally, everything withdrawn into a tight circle for fear of being embarrassed further.  In the lead-up to an election, this apparent 'do nothing' approach feeds into the Opposition fear-mongering and public perceptions that 'if they can't fix the NGR trains, how can they run a State?'

[InclusionMoves]

We are having this debate, well and good, and we are examining the issue every which way.  What's lacking?
Leadership and the facts.  The government  and minister are not showing leadership by taking the public that paid for these trains, into its confidence, explaining the issues and the steps being taken internally to overcome them.  The options are not out in the open for all to consider.  Gee, there might even be someone in the public who could offer advice if the detail was shared.  It is being held internally, everything withdrawn into a tight circle for fear of being embarrassed further.  In the lead-up to an election, this apparent 'do nothing' approach feeds into the Opposition fear-mongering and public perceptions that 'if they can't fix the NGR trains, how can they run a State?'

Totally agree Stillwater. We need leadership to step up. You will notice I never mention Labor or LNP in anything I write. They both had a crack at messing this one up. You will only ever hear me say the leadership of the day needs to step up and fix it. That doesn't mean they have to say its all their fault but they are in charge so part of leadership is fixing screw ups that came before you. I do take solace in the fact that even though this conversation is taking place here there are people watching who can fix it. I am not one to care who gets credit etc etc thats just not me. As long as they watch quietly and fix it I will be happy as larry.

Geoff       

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

21st June 2017

New Generation Rollingstock - DDA compliance concerns - Design botched?

Good Morning,

The lack of response by the authorities to our queries re the DDA Compliance or otherwise of the New Generation Rollingstock trains, suggests to us that the NGR trains are in fact not DDA compliant (see Media Statements from Inclusion Moves, below) and that the actual design of the NGR trains, which was done in Queensland, is at fault. The manufacturer builds to the design.

It would also appear that fixes are not presently underway to ensure compliance of the 15 trains in country. Otherwise it would have been detailed, surely?

Our guess is that the the Queensland Government (through DTMR and on behalf of the operator Queensland Rail) will apply for an exemption from the DDA for a period [ https://www.humanrights.gov.au/our-work/legal/exemptions/exemption-applications-under-disability-discrimination-act-1992-cth ].  Our understanding is that exemptions are for existing infrastructure/assets not new ones.  Should NGR trains be introduced in a non-compliant state it is highly likely in our opinion that this would be legally challenged.

Does the cessation of the importing of the NGR trains after the first 15 trains, indicate that the Queensland Government through its agencies is acting to  have the rest of the order (60 trains) now made DDA compliant?

Again we request a clear statement detailing the problems with the NGR trains that have stopped their introduction to regular passenger revenue service.  Details of the fixes that have been done, and proposed also needs clear explanation. It is now 487 days since the first NGR train, 701 was towed from the Port of Brisbane to Wulkuraka.

We are still waiting for an indicative response from the Queensland Auditor General to our request of 9th March 2017, for an audit into this botched project.

Is there a conspiracy of silence?

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg194178#msg194178 ]

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/877202390557970432

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https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/877203354278969344

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https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/877204874332479493

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https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/877207119497281536

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/barnesshane/status/877276476755681280

[ozbob]

^ NGR 705

[ozbob]

It is tragic that the NGR project is coming down to this.  Complete lack of transparency and leadership.  I am disgusted frankly with DTMR, Governments. both the present and the recent past, and the sad secret culture that permeates the bureaucracy generally in Queensland.

===================

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/877337977814302720

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/877572284185100289

[Stillwater]

Applaud the approach to the Australian Human Rights Commission.   

It needs to be demonstrated to the state government that this is serious and whatever 'Queenslander fix' is being hatched will be a botched job.  Agree, it is a sad day for public transport in Queensland.

Ask yourself this .... the Queensland Government is sending out those annoying tweets about the benefits of CRR, without a sod being turned, but there are no tweets about NGR trains.  It's a big fat zero response from government.  Perhaps the Citytrain Response Unit will tell us.  Riiiiight ...

[#Metro]

Hmm. Are the 15 x NGR trains able to run on the network if the toilet is simply locked?

If the toilet is locked and perhaps then later removed so that there is no toilet for anybody, is this discriminatory?

The toilet is only needed for long haul routes such as Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast services.

Trains elsewhere on the network, such as Ferny Grove - Beenleigh, do not have toilets.

Could simply locking the toilet so it cannot be used be a solution? It would allow the 15 NGR units to go into service.

Such trainsets would have to be banned from the Gold Coast Line and Sunshine Coast Lines, but that is perhaps workable in the short term I guess.

In the meantime, the NGR sets that are being built in India could have their design modified to be DDA compliant.

Thoughts??

[SurfRail]

Trains without toilets are commonly rostered on the Gold Coast line as it is...

[ozbob]

Matters not.
Trains are not compliant in other aspects.
It would be political suicide to introduce them with loos locked because of non compliance.

[InclusionMoves]

Hmm. Are the 15 x NGR trains able to run on the network if the toilet is simply locked?

If the toilet is locked and perhaps then later removed so that there is no toilet for anybody, is this discriminatory?

The toilet is only needed for long haul routes such as Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast services.

Trains elsewhere on the network, such as Ferny Grove - Beenleigh, do not have toilets.

Could simply locking the toilet so it cannot be used be a solution? It would allow the 15 NGR units to go into service.

Such trainsets would have to be banned from the Gold Coast Line and Sunshine Coast Lines, but that is perhaps workable in the short term I guess.

In the meantime, the NGR sets that are being built in India could have their design modified to be DDA compliant.

Thoughts??

Technically yes that is a possibility but as has been said would be political suicide. "so deputy premier exactly how much money have you wasted putting a non functioning train into service?" I can hear the opposition saying. Whole idea of these trains was to go on gold coast line for com games thats the only line I have heard spoken about.
Still huge chance of a complaint being bought forward when a guard misses a customer due to being so far away. Locking toilet does nothing to fix this issue. Aisle still not compliant. Again all free kicks for the opposition.

[Arnz]

SMU/IMU hybrids with the sole toilet broken down on both the GC and SC lines are getting semi-common those days.  I did note the 4 minute comfort stop at Beenleigh on a off-peak GC service recently with the sole toilet out of service on a recent trip a few days ago.  From what I understand, comfort stops at Beenleigh are not a common occurrence (regardless if it's a SMU or a toilet equipped service with the toilets out of order).

Some guards usually announce where the toilet is (which can vary from the 6th car (Back), 3rd or 4th cars or the 1st car (Front)), if it's a SMU/IMU hybrid operating a Nambour run.

[SurfRail]

Matters not.
Trains are not compliant in other aspects.
It would be political suicide to introduce them with loos locked because of non compliance.

They could do a NSW - roster the NGRs only on suburban routes, and then introduce a policy requiring the toilets to be locked for suburban running (the way the OSCARs were run assuming that hasn't changed).

Obviously unacceptable, but when has something being unacceptable or incompetent stopped them before? 

[ozbob]

Matters not.
Trains are not compliant in other aspects.
It would be political suicide to introduce them with loos locked because of non compliance.

...

Obviously unacceptable, but when has something being unacceptable or incompetent stopped them before? 

Good point!   

[InclusionMoves]

Obviously unacceptable, but when has something being unacceptable or incompetent stopped them before? 
[/quote]

Good point!   
[/quote]

It's when you read stuff like that and think "wow I can actually see that happening" that it makes me sad to be a taxpayer

[BrizCommuter]

Matters not.
Trains are not compliant in other aspects.
It would be political suicide to introduce them with loos locked because of non compliance.

It would be such a Queensland thing to do!

[ozbob]

Matters not.
Trains are not compliant in other aspects.
It would be political suicide to introduce them with loos locked because of non compliance.

It would be such a Queensland thing to do!

Indeed. 

[tazzer9]

Hmm. Are the 15 x NGR trains able to run on the network if the toilet is simply locked?

If the toilet is locked and perhaps then later removed so that there is no toilet for anybody, is this discriminatory?

The toilet is only needed for long haul routes such as Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast services.

Trains elsewhere on the network, such as Ferny Grove - Beenleigh, do not have toilets.

Could simply locking the toilet so it cannot be used be a solution? It would allow the 15 NGR units to go into service.

Such trainsets would have to be banned from the Gold Coast Line and Sunshine Coast Lines, but that is perhaps workable in the short term I guess.

In the meantime, the NGR sets that are being built in India could have their design modified to be DDA compliant.

Thoughts??

Metro trains lock the doors on sprinters running on the stony point line.    So doing this is very possible

[ozbob]

Stony Point is bit of special case in some ways.  The stated reason for locking the toilets was vandalism. 
Although if you really have to go the guard will open them I understand.

[SABB]

So, in summary, we have some new trains that aren't DDA compliant.  How and why we got into this situation doesn't alter this.  TMR/QR can't run them because they are new rolling stock not existing Pre-DDA EMUs.
If we run them, we risk all sorts of legal action from some possibly aggrieved groups. 
So standing back and looking at this situation:
If we don't run them, everybody is disadvantaged because of the additional non-rail traffic that is required to compensate (i.e.busses and cars).
If we do run them, a smaller group is disadvantaged.
My suggestion - run them as is and give free maxi-taxi service to those who would be disadvantaged.
Obviously, in the meantime, we continue working to get the fleet to full DDA compliance.

[mufreight]

The first of these trains has been in the country now for almost a year and a half, to this time neither the Minister, TMR, the NGR project team and Queensland Rail have responded to concerns raised by persons with disabilities as to if these trains are disability compliant ans it is understood that to date nothing has been done to make them disability compliant.
It is reasonable that the concerns raised should have been responded to by the Minister, by TMR who are responsible for the project, by the NGR project team and Queensland Rail who will be responsible for the operation of these trains.
In the absence of any response to inquiries as to if these trains are compliant with the relevant legislation it is a reasonable assumption that these trains are not compliant and if the precedent of "Cooks v State of Queensland" when the convention centre could not be commissioned until it was made disability access compliant.
The political ramifications are considerable with both the Government and the Opposition at blame, the trains were ordered by the then Transport Minister Mr Emerson and the then Treasurer Mr Nicholes the lack of action by the current Minister to rectify the problems does nothing for the chances of the re-election of a Labor Government with one rail fail after another.

[achiruel]

Matters not.
Trains are not compliant in other aspects.
It would be political suicide to introduce them with loos locked because of non compliance.

It would be such a Queensland thing to do!

How is it a Queensland thing to do when NSW has already done it?  :conf

[#Metro]

SABB, QR cannot run them, they are unlawful to operate in their current state.

It's against the law.

Locking the toilet or ripping the toilet out completely and restricting the train to Beenleigh - Ferny Grove is one option.

There are other issues, but perhaps there are similar patches that can be used.

As with any typical "Queensland" botch you have patches on patches.

Anyway, we really need a state senate, this is getting ridiculous and effing expensive all the cock ups.

[SABB]

I think that there is something wrong with our legal and administrative systems when it is ok to lock the toilet door and inconvenience every traveller but not ok to allow the toilet to be used by some users. 
The DDA is also retrospective. The Act requires facilities to become full DDA compliant within 25 years. This was on the basis that most facilities are refurbished within that timeframe. Did QR get an exemption for the stations ? Not that I am aware of.  If QR doesn't have an exemption, we should close all of the non-compliant railway stations (most of them).

[#Metro]

I think that there is something wrong with our legal and administrative systems when it is ok to lock the toilet door and inconvenience every traveller but not ok to allow the toilet to be used by some users. 

The DDA is also retrospective. The Act requires facilities to become full DDA compliant within 25 years. This was on the basis that most facilities are refurbished within that timeframe. Did QR get an exemption for the stations ? Not that I am aware of.  If QR doesn't have an exemption, we should close all of the non-compliant railway stations (most of them).

No, that is the purpose of the legislation. It imposes high and disruptive costs for non-compliance to promote compliance.

My understanding (happy to be corrected) is that QR stations are exempt and that they have a period to become compliant. Unfortunately this appears to mean raising only part of the platform, a measure that I see as second best. We really should be raising the whole platform.

[BrizCommuter]

NGR - Down the Toilet?
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2017/06/ngr-down-toilet.html

[mufreight]

I think that there is something wrong with our legal and administrative systems when it is ok to lock the toilet door and inconvenience every traveller but not ok to allow the toilet to be used by some users. 
The DDA is also retrospective. The Act requires facilities to become full DDA compliant within 25 years. This was on the basis that most facilities are refurbished within that timeframe. Did QR get an exemption for the stations ? Not that I am aware of.  If QR doesn't have an exemption, we should close all of the non-compliant railway stations (most of them).

I would suggest that you go and have another read of the legislation, it clearly requires that all NEW facilities be fully compliant which means that any refurbishments should also be compliant but can apply for a 5 year exemption.
The NGR trains are NEW having been designed and constructed

[achiruel]

Unfortunately this appears to mean raising only part of the platform, a measure that I see as second best. We really should be raising the whole platform.

Not really possible on curved platforms.

[#Metro]

I would suggest that you go and have another read of the legislation, it clearly requires that all NEW facilities be fully compliant which means that any refurbishments should also be compliant but can apply for a 5 year exemption.
The NGR trains are NEW having been designed and constructed

If we had a state senate, (a) it would be much harder to order the actual trains with these flaws and (b) there would be a senate investigation into it right now.

I had another idea - but it is hard to see if it would work as there is not a complete diagram drawing for the entire train and carraiges.

But it goes like this:

(a) rip out the toilet
(b) put the guard space where the toilet is

Would this work?

[ozbob]

NGR - Down the Toilet?
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2017/06/ngr-down-toilet.html

  Sent to all outlets and ...

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/877929653914148864

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https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/877932796735508480

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https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/877933719637467136

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https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/877937101056032768

[ozbob]

Well, there is no doubt that the NGR trains are not DDA compliant.  How a $4.4 billion project could end up being so botched is why we have requested the Queensland Auditor General to conduct an audit into this project (request made 9th March 2017, still waiting for an indicative response to this request).

I have little doubt that the Government will with great song and dance, much spin and hype, will launch the NGR trains within a month and direct the operator, Queensland Rail to run them.

They have probably taken the view that they will chance the DDA act, and hope that any challenge is not sustained.  This would be pathetic but hey this is Queensland, another half-baked botch!

Because the Government knows that without the extra trains, the transport plan for the Gold Coast Games is going to fall apart. Much service reduction and possible line closures (despite assurances in Parliament otherwise). They will hope that any legal stuff will not be sorted till post games (and post election).

Will the authorities receive cash bonuses for delivery of this almighty mess?

 

[ozbob]

Days since NGR 701 towed to Wulkuraka

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/barnesshane/status/877947208607318016

[Stillwater]

^^ But what of the trains yet to be delivered?  Will they be modified overseas, before shipment to Australia?  Presumably, the manufacturer will see this as a change of contract (specifications) and will demand monetary compensation.  Has that been budgeted for?  What does this fully accountable, open and transparent government have to say?

[ozbob]

" ... Does the cessation of the importing of the NGR trains after the first 15 trains, indicate that the Queensland Government through its agencies is acting to  have the rest of the order (60 trains) now made DDA compliant? ... "

https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg194375#msg194375

The question has been asked, many times ...   

[InclusionMoves]

^^ But what of the trains yet to be delivered?  Will they be modified overseas, before shipment to Australia?  Presumably, the manufacturer will see this as a change of contract (specifications) and will demand monetary compensation.  Has that been budgeted for?  What does this fully accountable, open and transparent government have to say?

This question comes down to whether government (be that LNP or Labor had relevant criteria in tender specs around DSAPT. If they didn't they are incompetent and yes would mean change of contract. If they did then wouldn't mean a change of contract simply enforcing a contract in full not accepting half a job.

[verbatim9]

Has anyone contacted TMR to see if NGR trains will be in service in Oct 17?

[InclusionMoves]

Has anyone contacted TMR to see if NGR trains will be in service in Oct 17?

Only response we get when we ask what your hard deadline is tends to be a sarcastic "2 months ago"

Geoff

[mufreight]

Try contacting Mr Craig McTosch at Translink, systems manager 30662755,
Got his PA? who is referring my questions to their media team and someone, probably the coffee lady will get back to me, Im not holding my breath but there is the contact number so if enough people ask the question someone eventually will get an answer. how relevant or factual the answer is will be the next question.  Have fun.