New Generation Rollingstock

[InclusionMoves]

Why not just loose the fancy door, p**s off the intercarriage doorway and fit another toilet in the other car?

So you end with two toilets, one each in cars 3 & 4, and you loose the "full walk through" feature which is nothing more than a gimmick IMO.

Possibly solves part of the issue but still doesn't solve guard relocation issue which I will write about more today.

I am thinking of the Traveston Crossing Dam -- big project, fell at the last hurdle, government took a financial haircut, in the hundreds of millions.  Would we see a situation where the government will refuse to take any more trains in, pulling the rug from the contract, asking that the bulk of the fleet not yet delivered be sold off to another narrow gauge passenger system, keeping the 15 delivered so far for Commonwealth Games, then getting rid of them down the track.  Start all over again.

The 15 are non compliant against a federal legislation. Political suicide to even attempt an exemption from that for a sporting event. I went to 2 paralympics I have seen some stuff get rushed through to solve a problem but this would be next level. Plus it's something we have already thought of so am keeping our eye out.

[petey3801]

Guards relocation is a non issue as long as it is implemented correctly. Sydney guards moved to the back when the Waratah trains were delivered and the sky hasn't fallen in, nor have the timetables blown out. Quite the opposite in fact, as timetables are getting tighter down there with the superior operating characteristics of the Waratah trains.

[BrizCommuter]

Why not just loose the fancy door, p**s off the intercarriage doorway and fit another toilet in the other car?

So you end with two toilets, one each in cars 3 & 4, and you loose the "full walk through" feature which is nothing more than a gimmick IMO.

The gangway is quite useful for middle aged ladies to wonder through the train until they find a 4 seat bay all to themselves.

[STB]

Guards relocation is a non issue as long as it is implemented correctly. Sydney guards moved to the back when the Waratah trains were delivered and the sky hasn't fallen in, nor have the timetables blown out. Quite the opposite in fact, as timetables are getting tighter down there with the superior operating characteristics of the Waratah trains.

Isn't there a LOT more station staff down there though available throughout most of the day into the night that helps with loading/unloading disabled pax compared to up here?

[petey3801]

There are more station staff, yes,but that's not difficult to overcome,considering one of the options on the table is for an extra customer staff member on the trains themselves. Hire some more station staff to have accessible stations manned from (say) first train til 8pm, 7 days per week. Station staff board the wheelchairs etc, guard de-boards them. Outside those hours, the guards can board and deboard them, as very few wheelchair pax travel on the trains during the evening/night generally.

[tazzer9]

Only add station staff to stations with island platforms.  Otherwise its a big waste having the extra staff member to only service half the trains.   Sydney can afford more station staff because of the overall higher number of train users.   

[tazzer9]

So you end with two toilets, one each in cars 3 & 4, and you loose the "full walk through" feature which is nothing more than a gimmick IMO.

The only real vantage to the full walk through is when something goes back.   Eg, train stuck halfway along a platform.    There are other nice benefits of being able to sit in the empty rear carriage on an afternoon ferny grove service, then walk to the front once you hit keperra.  You also get a bonus of being able to fit an 20 people on the train.

The other advantage of the full walkthorugh is simply the lack of 2 extra cabs.   Which is the very expensive part of the train.   

[InclusionMoves]

Guards relocation is a non issue as long as it is implemented correctly. Sydney guards moved to the back when the Waratah trains were delivered and the sky hasn't fallen in, nor have the timetables blown out. Quite the opposite in fact, as timetables are getting tighter down there with the superior operating characteristics of the Waratah trains.

We hear horror stories of people being left behind regularly in NSW. As always I am realistic and say the truth is somewhere between perfect and a horror show though. Point being that one person left behind as a result of their disability shows they have been treated different to an able bodied passenger which in and of itself is a potential human rights violation and DDA complaint. That is why its always been our point that staffing solutions shouldn't be relied upon when design solutions are available.

A station staff model means more communication between stations regarding destination stations of those wishing to get off. Communication is bound to break down at times. As it did in this occasion.    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-28/woman-karin-swift-wheelchair-stranded-brisbane-train-apology/8566628

[HappyTrainGuy]

There is an absolute and universal obligation to meet the requirements of the DDA.  The associated regulations, measurements etc. have the enforcement of law.  The specifications of the NGR trains, as configured currently, are unlawful.  There can be no fudging by a centimetre here or there.  QR faces the full force of the law, and stiff penalties if they put the NGR trains into service as they stand.  The exemption that QR seems to be contemplating relying upon was designed for circumstances where a fleet of vehicles was nearing the end of its life and a refit so close to the point of obsolescence would be costly and uneconomic.  These are new trains. The assisted travel provisions also covered circumstances where a fleet of vehicles in, say, two years time, was about to go into a refit where the rolling stock would be made compliant to the DDA.  No situation should be countenanced whereby a government agency that is responsible for upholding the law should circumvent or flout it.  These laws were hard-won and there should be no going back.

TMR*

[petey3801]

As I said, station staff puts person on, guard takes them off. Station staff tell the guard where the person is going when they put them on via intercom.
Unfortunately, this is not a perfect world and every once in a blue moon, someone may be left behind (and not just disabled pax). It is, however, extremely rare.

[#Metro]

The only real vantage to the full walk through is when something goes back.   Eg, train stuck halfway along a platform.    There are other nice benefits of being able to sit in the empty rear carriage on an afternoon ferny grove service, then walk to the front once you hit keperra.  You also get a bonus of being able to fit an 20 people on the train.

The other advantage of the full walkthorugh is simply the lack of 2 extra cabs.   Which is the very expensive part of the train.   

So maybe this is a solution? Remove the gangway and replace with toilets/cabs? We don''t need the full walkthrough and the cab is probably expensive due to the extra kit and controls. But if the trains are never separated, then is there really a need to have the whole controls set installed in the middle sections of the train?

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/875221212334399489

[#Metro]

They should put the NGR design mods out to tender or public competition. Best one gets $$ and chance to work with Bombardier. Promote it to universities.

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

16th June 2017

New Generation Rollingstock - DDA compliance concerns

Good Morning,

Now 482 days since the first New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) train was towed to Wulkuraka, and still no trains in revenue service.  Is this because of non compliance with the Disability Discrimination Act?  Will the trains ever be introduced into revenue service?

Disability advocates are very concerned (see below) and so are we.

This NGR project clearly has very serious issues.  Why would the importing of the NGR trains be ceased if there weren't?

It is time for detailed explanation as to the problems with this project and what the proposed fixes are.  The Queensland Rail train fleet has constant mechanical issues, causing cancellations and flow on service disruptions and delays, virtually daily.

Queensland rail fail is bad enough, to have it compounded by the NGR failure is very very serious.

We are still waiting to hear from the Queensland Auditor General by the way.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

1. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCKjGU6VwAAd80D.jpg


2. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCQsUNqXoAAT55A.jpg


3. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCVow1ZUQAAM7vo.jpg


[ Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg193733#msg193733 ]

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/875391579325845504

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/875392285994700800

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/875397993234432000

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/875407923924443136

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/875603592673083392

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

17th June 2017

Re: New Generation Rollingstock - DDA compliance concerns

Good Morning,

Below is the final statement (number 4) from Inclusion Moves (see below) ' Misinformed and ill advised commentary ' with respect to issues concerning PWD and NGR trains.

This is a stunningly sad indictment on the gross incompetence of our transport authorities.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Reference:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCa8PAXVoAABwSl.jpg

Sent to all outlets:

16th June 2017

New Generation Rollingstock - DDA compliance concerns

Good Morning,

Now 482 days since the first New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) train was towed to Wulkuraka, and still no trains in revenue service.  Is this because of non compliance with the Disability Discrimination Act?  Will the trains ever be introduced into revenue service?

Disability advocates are very concerned (see below) and so are we.

This NGR project clearly has very serious issues.  Why would the importing of the NGR trains be ceased if there weren't?

It is time for detailed explanation as to the problems with this project and what the proposed fixes are.  The Queensland Rail train fleet has constant mechanical issues, causing cancellations and flow on service disruptions and delays, virtually daily.

Queensland rail fail is bad enough, to have it compounded by the NGR failure is very very serious.

We are still waiting to hear from the Queensland Auditor General by the way.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

References:

1. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCKjGU6VwAAd80D.jpg


2. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCQsUNqXoAAT55A.jpg


3. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCVow1ZUQAAM7vo.jpg


[ Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg193733#msg193733 ]

[Cazza]

A very rare sighting of an extremely endangered species:
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-27.6124828,152.7250182,248m/data=!3m1!1e3

[ozbob]

From another thread [ Re: Queensland State Election - was 2016? now 2017? ]

Posted here for interest ... 

If the NGR trains are not in service for the Commonwealth Games because the disability non compliance issues have not been addressed then it is highly doubtful that Labor will survive in Government and it would then almost be a given that as the Minister responsible Ms Trad would also be history.
A battle in the courts over the compliance or lack of has the precedent of "Cocks V State of Queensland" over the Disability Access to the Convention Centre at South Brisbane which could not open to the public until Disability Access was provided would bearing in mind that the Government has been aware that the NGR trains do not meet the requirements for Disability Access for over a year and it would be unlikely that the courts would grant an exemption.
The positions of those in TMR who signed off on the compliance of these trains from Mr Scales down would be untenable.

[InclusionMoves]

From another thread [ Re: Queensland State Election - was 2016? now 2017? ]

Posted here for interest ... 

If the NGR trains are not in service for the Commonwealth Games because the disability non compliance issues have not been addressed then it is highly doubtful that Labor will survive in Government and it would then almost be a given that as the Minister responsible Ms Trad would also be history.
A battle in the courts over the compliance or lack of has the precedent of "Cocks V State of Queensland" over the Disability Access to the Convention Centre at South Brisbane which could not open to the public until Disability Access was provided would bearing in mind that the Government has been aware that the NGR trains do not meet the requirements for Disability Access for over a year and it would be unlikely that the courts would grant an exemption.
The positions of those in TMR who signed off on the compliance of these trains from Mr Scales down would be untenable.

All very true. I put this out a while ago. You can watch more about Cocks v Qld here. http://www.slq.qld.gov.au/audio-video/webcasts/recent-webcasts/cocks-v-state-of-queensland
Happened under Goss government. Little tidbit is the newly appointed Chief of Staff for Premier was private secretariat for Wayne Goss at the time. The words used in the attached video around "arrogance" "didn't think it was possible they would lose" etc are all very Déjà vu to current situation.
Geoff

[InclusionMoves]

Oh and just re timings, we first raised issues around NGR non compliance at Ministerial level just prior to 8 Dec 2015 as this was when Stirling Hinchliffe took over from Jackie Trad as Transport Minister version 1. We wrote to Jackie Trad but meeting didn't happen till Hinchliffe took over. Was raised at QR level prior to this.

Geoff   

[Gazza]

So, if you had to summarize what changes need to me made for compliance with the law, what are they?

Are they simple fixes?

One thing im interested in, but with the narrow corridor next to the toilet, is it physically possible to fit a loo and a toilet side by side within a train that fits the QR loading gauge?

[InclusionMoves]

I can't speak to the possibility of getting the right widths for toilet and walkway and keeping the walkthrough capability as that gets into width of walls etc and without being an engineer that is familiar with the construction of the train that is impossible to say. But best comment so far was from 300LA

  Would something like this be feasible?

Working on the assumption that 3 types of wagons make up each of the already delivered NGRs.
Wagons with driver controls (#1 & #6)
Basic no frills wagons (#2 & #5)
Wagons with toilets (#3 & #4)

Wagons #3 & #4 to be renovated with toilets moved to the ends of the wagons (as per the current configuration), toilets to be made DDA compliant without the need for a passing corridor beside it.  This opportunity can then be used to reinstate a guard's compartment in the centre of the train.

Driver controls tol be left out of the 'guards compartments'. (To try and keep costs as low as possible).
This will prevent future 3car running as trains wont be bidirectional. For memory, IIRC, NGRs were designed as 6car units ( vs 2x 3cars) to reduce costs associated with driver controls(?).   

[#Metro]

Have a diagram for this (maybe drawn up in powerpoint?).

[InclusionMoves]

Have a diagram for this (maybe drawn up in powerpoint?).

Knew someone would ask. Will get my crayons out tomorrow.   

[Gazza]

The NGRs are fixed 6 car sets. They are not designed to be spit into 3.

Im thinking, why not just have a toilet at each end of the train behind the drivers cab, a bit like in an IMU. Then there would be no problem making it wide or deep enough, and the drivers door can just be down the side. Also means the loo is adjacent to where the guard would be, and you'd have your wheelchair spots in #1 and #6.

That would mean you'd get 4 no frills wagons, then 2 ones that have controls and toilets. seems more efficient to me!

Wagons #3 & #4 to be renovated with toilets moved to the ends of the wagons (as per the current configuration), toilets to be made DDA compliant without the need for a passing corridor beside it.  This opportunity can then be used to reinstate a guard's compartment in the centre of the train.

I was thinking that, but if the toilet is only 150mm too narrow, then that shouldn't mean you would have to eliminate the corridor between #3 and #4 surley? Just make it 150mm narrower.

I reckon the toilet doesn't even have to be a complex fix.
See attached, basically make the module longer, and thicken up the wall behind the toilet so the pan is further forwards, as much as needed to get the required activity space.

Finally, in terms of getting them running, do you see it as possible for them to operate them for non interurban work, with toilets locked (treat them as SMUs basically) until such time as a permanent fix can be done.
(Use existing trains for Gold coast and Sunshine Coast runs)

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/876487197926371328

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/876488622869958656

[ozbob]

Days since NGR 701 towed to Wulkuraka

[Stillwater]

Gazza, the corridor beside the toilet module must also be DDA compliant.  I wouldn't want it to be any narrower, even for able-bodied people.  Have you seen the size of some prams these days!  And what about having good exits in the event of an emergency?

[mufreight]

The toilet on the Diesel Tilt Trains is DDA compliant as is the corridor past the toilet module and these carriages are the same width as the NGR trains so any argument that the NGR trains can not be made DDA compliant because they are too narrow is just so much BS.  Looking forward to when this gets into the High Court to listen to the excuses for the incompetence of the TMR staff and the arrogance of the then Minister (Emerson) who signed off on these train sets, a quick glance at the requirements of the  relevant DDA legislation and from that Blind Freddie would have known that the NGR's were non compliant, says a lot for the intelligence or lack thereof in TMR.
The LNP cant say too much as these trains were ordered while they were the government and Newman was Premier Nichols was Treasurer and Emerson was the Minister and they boasted about their cut price trains, obviously not the bargain they claimed.

[tazzer9]

Does anyone know whether the NGR's are proper 6 car units, or are they 2 x 3 car units put together in a similar fashion to the electric tilt trains and the NSW waratah's?

[InclusionMoves]

The toilet on the Diesel Tilt Trains is DDA compliant as is the corridor past the toilet module and these carriages are the same width as the NGR trains so any argument that the NGR trains can not be made DDA compliant because they are too narrow is just so much BS.  Looking forward to when this gets into the High Court to listen to the excuses for the incompetence of the TMR staff and the arrogance of the then Minister (Emerson) who signed off on these train sets, a quick glance at the requirements of the  relevant DDA legislation and from that Blind Freddie would have known that the NGR's were non compliant, says a lot for the intelligence or lack thereof in TMR.
The LNP cant say too much as these trains were ordered while they were the government and Newman was Premier Nichols was Treasurer and Emerson was the Minister and they boasted about their cut price trains, obviously not the bargain they claimed.

The smoking gun for us would be if the consortium warned TMR of non compliance. Say what you want about Bombadier, it being cut priced etc but they are a huge company one would think they had enough lawyers on staff to make sure someone wrote that letter ensuring that the responsibility of non compliance was transferred.
Geoff

[tazzer9]

The accessible toilets in the Diesel Tilt Train might be compliant, but they also take up around 1/3 of the entire cars length.  And the massive extra space inside required for disability compliance doubles as the shower.   The DDA compliant toilets are so big that not all the toilets are DDA.   It would take up too much space.

[Gazza]

Gazza, the corridor beside the toilet module must also be DDA compliant.  I wouldn't want it to be any narrower, even for able-bodied people.  Have you seen the size of some prams these days!  And what about having good exits in the event of an emergency?

Does it have to be though to meet the regulation? Does the entire vehicle need to be accessible?

I guess the problem is that someone at the other end of the train can't get to the door, hence suggestions of a 2nd toilet.

What about on buses? They have a narrow walkway up to the back half for example.

Anyway, if the tilts can do it this is all academic.

[James]

I think getting the corridor to allow full walkthrough of the train is a 'nice to have'. If the walkway has to be DDA compliant, and there's no way to do it without making the toilet unnecessarily large, I wouldn't be too fussed if a wall or see-through barrier was put along the passageway. Sure, it decreases the amenity, but that's life. Yes, some people won't be able to access the toilet without leaving the train, but that happens with trains arranged as half SMU/IMU, or ones without working toilets.

Also, I suspect the toilet itself are plumbed in already, meaning it'd be hard to move it. I suspect it would be easier just to move the walls by a few cm to ensure compliance with the relevant dimensions around the toilet area.

[InclusionMoves]

Needs to have accessible spaces and same access to amenities as other community members at a minimum. Plus vision impairment specific things such as braille, priority seating where appropriate etc. Guard relocation is key in all of this not just toilet and access ways cause we just can't see how with communication systems already failing on current system and leaving people behind moving the guard further away will not cause more dramas. Remembering a person left behind due to their disability (or failure for systems to account for their disability is a sure DDA complaint).

Someone much smarter and more talented than me did the attached up. Shows theoretically how toilet could be modified (basically moving toilet to opposite wall so curved door doesn't interfere with area beside it). Aisle turned into guards carriage. Again this is all just theory without engineering knowledge.

Geoff       

[tazzer9]

Needs to have accessible spaces and same access to amenities as other community members at a minimum. Plus vision impairment specific things such as braille, priority seating where appropriate etc. Guard relocation is key in all of this not just toilet and access ways cause we just can't see how with communication systems already failing on current system and leaving people behind moving the guard further away will not cause more dramas. Remembering a person left behind due to their disability (or failure for systems to account for their disability is a sure DDA complaint).

Someone much smarter and more talented than me did the attached up. Shows theoretically how toilet could be modified (basically moving toilet to opposite wall so curved door doesn't interfere with area beside it). Aisle turned into guards carriage. Again this is all just theory without engineering knowledge.

Geoff     

The people getting left behind would conclude that it doesn't matter where the guard is located.   Stuff ups will happen.   

The guard is already located at the back of the train on the ICE's.  Is there a greater number of issues on these services because of guard location? 

[verbatim9]

TMR website still expects trains in service this year

Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk

[ozbob]

TMR website still expects trains in service this year

Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk

No real guarantee.  It has been updated a number of times from  the original mid 2016 ... but we can live in hope I guess.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The NGRs are fixed 6 car sets. They are not designed to be spit into 3.

Im thinking, why not just have a toilet at each end of the train behind the drivers cab, a bit like in an IMU. Then there would be no problem making it wide or deep enough, and the drivers door can just be down the side. Also means the loo is adjacent to where the guard would be, and you'd have your wheelchair spots in #1 and #6.

That would mean you'd get 4 no frills wagons, then 2 ones that have controls and toilets. seems more efficient to me!

Also means that those units could also be expanded to a fixed 9 car set by adding an additional power and passenger cars to the middle without issues with toilet positioning.