New Generation Rollingstock

[SurfRail]

I really don't get the intercarriage issue.  Are any of the other intercarriage gangways accessible to begin with?  I wouldn't have thought so even if they were wide enough in and of themselves because of the floor surface and because of the seating in the way.

[Stillwater]

Would it be possible for a NGR train to be positioned somewhere safe and accessible for say 3-4 hours for an open inspection by members of the public?  After all, taxpayers own the things.  Maybe even charge a 'gold coin donation', with proceeds going to some charity.  Allow people inspect the fit-out.  Some people might bring a tape measure!

[ozbob]

Some feedback received, thanks!

As a mobility impaired user of public transport particularly rail I have considerable concerns with regard to disability access at a number of stations and the trains themselves and increased concerns regarding disabled access to the NGR trains which I am reliably informed are not compliant for disability access under the applicable government legislation.

I previously emailed requesting information with regard to what the arrangement will be for assisted access to the NGR trains as it is my understanding that the guard will be stationed in the rear (trailing) drivers cab of these trains while the guard currently travels in the leading cab of the trailing three car set of a six car train and is in a position to provide assistance to disabled persons boarding the train, I again ask that you provide advice as to the intended procedure with the NGR trains with the guard traveling at the rear of the train.

I received an acknowledgment to your receipt of my Email of the 1st March 2017 but to this date no response addressing the points raised.

Am further advised that the NGR train sets are not disability compliant due to the manner in which the toilet is located and configured and that the toilet module does not provide sufficient room for a person entering the toilet on a standard sized wheelchair or a motorised wheelchair to turn around and transfer across on to the pedestal.  The toilets on the diesel tilt trains are disability compliant in a carriage that is no wider that the NGR trains so why are the toilets on the NGR trains not compliant.

It has also been noted that the toilet module blocks access from carriage 3 to carriage 4 because it restricts the clearance between the wall of the toilet module and the end of carriage gangway, again making this doorway non compliant.  This could well pose a major safety problem for any disabled person in the event of the train having to be evacuated.

The lack of a response parallels the arrogant, dismissive and contemptuous lack of response from TMR and Translink when these questions have been raised, Queensland Rail has been more responsive but unable to respond to the questions raised because the NGR trains are under the control of TMR.

I would also again raise the point of the platform heights and the safety and ease of all passengers boarding or alighting from trains as the majority of platform are below the height of the carriage floor, in some cases the difference is as much as 40cm or more, this is difficult for the elderly and mothers with small children to negotiate. In the process of providing disability access short sections of the platforms in the middle of the trains are being railed to carriage floor level, it would be highly beneficial if when such works were being undertaken the entire platforms were raised for the benefit of all passengers.  The recent work carried out at Dinmore station took over 15 months to raise 2/3rds of the platform length, it would have been far more cost effective to have raised the platforms full length, by comparison the three platforms at South Brisbane were raised full length in just over three weeks.

It is very concerning that straightforward questions are NOT being answered.  I know of folks who have written months ago requesting information (myself included) and have not been responded to in  any detail, other than an acknowledgement of receipt if you are lucky.  Additionally I know of journalists who have placed RTI requests re NGR with no success.  There appears to be a deliberate policy of non-disclosure, a wall of silence. 

This is very unhealthy of course and it really suggests that there are, have been, serious issues, otherwise why hide it all?

Our request to the Queensland Auditor General of 9th March 2017 for an audit into the NGR botch, now 3 months ago, still languishes.

Something really rotten here!

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

11th June 2017

New Generation Rollingstock trains and the cone of silence

Good Morning,

I am writing to express our grave concerns with the ' wall of silence ' that surrounds the New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) trains project.

It is very concerning that straightforward questions are NOT being answered.  I know of folks who have written months ago requesting information (myself included) and have not been responded to in any detail, other than an acknowledgement of receipt if you are lucky (1.).  Additionally I know of journalists who have placed RTI requests re NGR with no success.  There appears to be a deliberate policy of non-disclosure, a wall of silence.

This is very unhealthy of course and it really suggests that there are, have been, serious issues, otherwise why hide it?

Our request to the Queensland Auditor General of 9th March 2017 for an audit into the NGR botch, now 3 months ago, still languishes.

What is there to hide? It does appear there is something really rotten here!

The fact that the importing of NGR trains was ceased is a stark warning.  Time for the truth please.  Rail fail is getting worse.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

Reference:

1. Feedback re NGR issues --> https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg193731#msg193731

Sent to all outlets:

9th June 2017

New Generation Rollingstock trains needed urgently

Good Morning,

Will we get a clear and detailed statement as to the compliance of NGR trains with the DDA act?

And a detailed list of the other problems with the NGR trains and what the fixes are?

Commonwealth Games is rapidly approaching.  Importing of NGR trains is suspended.

The current train fleet is plagued with ' mechanical issues '. The last couple of days has been a long list of cancelled and delayed services due to ' mechanical issues ' [ See -->  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1862.msg193587#msg193587 ].  Friday today, even less services with the so called ' Friday Timetable ' - an insult to passengers.

Sadly ' reliability ' the catch cry of ' Fixing the Trains ' is a myth.  Will the Citytrain Response Unit release their ' regular report ' on progress now that 3 months have passed since the last one?

Will the Queensland Auditor General respond to our request of the 9th March 2017 for an audit  into this botched project?

What is going on please? It is now 475 days since NGR 701 was towed from the Port of Brisbane to Wulkuraka.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ozbob]

Now 477 days since NGR 701 towed to Wulkuraka!
> https://t.co/y8m0I6QiiC#qldpol@couriermail @brisbanetimes @ABCNewsBrisbane pic.twitter.com/ex11b8SD8q

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) June 10, 2017

^

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/873587701819232256

[ozbob]

Days fly by hey?
> https://t.co/y8m0I6QiiC#qldpol#NGRfail#NotGoingRight pic.twitter.com/zKQE7QoPRv

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) June 10, 2017

[ozbob]

[ozbob]

Letter to the Editor Queensland Times 12th June 2017 page 15

Answers not forthcoming

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/Robert_Dow/status/874021789726236672

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/874442445798256640

[Stillwater]

This is in addition to the toilet module being non-compliant too?

[InclusionMoves]

Sure is in addition to non compliant toilet. Toilet dimensions is tomorrows briefing. Then guard location. Then we will see where we go from there.

Geoff

[SurfRail]

That there is designated boarding in both the middle cars clarifies the position somewhat.

Having said that, I genuinely don't know how this can be made to work with our narrow loading gauge.

[ozbob]

Welcome InclusionMoves!   

[InclusionMoves]

Understand the packaging is difficult. All the more difficult when trains were able to progress to built stage yet still non compliant. Who is to say what could have been possible with a fresh page and some commitment to best practice not cheapest price. Hence innovation is key. Can't just rely on 5 year exemptions every time and not show you are making any change. Much less take backward steps away from already exempted compliance and think no one will call you out on it. 

[Stillwater]

This year's state budget includes allocation of more than $400m for NGR trains, which indicates the Qld Govt is planning to proceed with purchase.

[HappyTrainGuy]

That there is designated boarding in both the middle cars clarifies the position somewhat.

Having said that, I genuinely don't know how this can be made to work with our narrow loading gauge.

I don't know why they moved them from the cab ends where there's dedicated space  as theres no requirements for any passenger movements, seating or disability access as its a short hallway to the drivers cab. Just remove the toilets from the middle and build a new cab car with a toilet. Once they rock up whack them onto the existing sets with the older ones then going onto the future sets. Down the line you could even have toilets on both cab ends and use them as the future 9 car sets (just bolt on another 3 cars in the middle). Either way its going to be an expensive fix. But for who is the question.

[SurfRail]

Which would be fine if the whole of QR's DDA compliant boarding philosophy was closer to Melbourne (ie at the end of the platform where the driver is, or at least the guard in our case).

It's obscene that they are still planning to not fully raise platforms for upcoming station upgrades like Strathpine.  If I had time I'd do a release about it, because almost nothing p%sses me off more when it comes to station works.

[InclusionMoves]

The suggestion of them moving toilet to the end but then it not matching the boarding location perfectly sums up the mess. Its a circular argument of possibilities till someone gets their check book out and makes a call for the good of Queenslanders over the next 35 years. Shows some leadership not just makes a call based on the budget and political environment now.   

[HappyTrainGuy]

Which would be fine if the whole of QR's DDA compliant boarding philosophy was closer to Melbourne (ie at the end of the platform where the driver is, or at least the guard in our case).

It's obscene that they are still planning to not fully raise platforms for upcoming station upgrades like Strathpine.  If I had time I'd do a release about it, because almost nothing p%sses me off more when it comes to station works.

I personally don't want to see Strathpine with full height platforms as its a potential waste of money (rather see that money put elsewhere in teh station upgrade/commit to future upgrade works and expansion such as level boarding for the rest of the station rather than the southern ends etc but there might be issues with the eastern platform due to the building and signalling works there). QR/Translink/TMR/MBRC have future plans for the station upgrade, proper interchange facilities between bus and car, parking removal and local building demolish/upgrades in the not too distant future. The southern end of the station is planned to be demolished and moved north in the future to allow for longer trains, the level crossing removal, additional track and to get the station off the kink. The eastern carpark would make a new platform and bus interchange. The majority of the works was dependent on the MBRC progressing with their relocation programs and works on their offices surrounding the station which I think was planned for 2020/2022-ish.

[petey3801]

The suggestion of them moving toilet to the end but then it not matching the boarding location perfectly sums up the mess. Its a circular argument of possibilities till someone gets their check book out and makes a call for the good of Queenslanders over the next 35 years. Shows some leadership not just makes a call based on the budget and political environment now.

Would IM be happy if QR decided to have all PWDs boarded in the same car as the toilet?
As far as I can tell, with the narrow gauge and narrow loading gauge of the QR network, there is no way to have a DDA compliant walkway beside a DDA compliant toilet on the train. There are also a fair number of stations which are too narrow at the ends to safely load wheelchairs on to the train in the first/last cars, making that a difficult option to implement also.

[mufreight]

That there is designated boarding in both the middle cars clarifies the position somewhat.

Having said that, I genuinely don't know how this can be made to work with our narrow loading gauge.

The toilets on the diesel tilt trains which are the same width over the car body as the NGR train sets are disability compliant so any argument that the NGR trains can not be made compliant because they are not wide enough is just so much waffle (BS). 

[InclusionMoves]

The suggestion of them moving toilet to the end but then it not matching the boarding location perfectly sums up the mess. Its a circular argument of possibilities till someone gets their check book out and makes a call for the good of Queenslanders over the next 35 years. Shows some leadership not just makes a call based on the budget and political environment now.

Would IM be happy if QR decided to have all PWDs boarded in the same car as the toilet?
As far as I can tell, with the narrow gauge and narrow loading gauge of the QR network, there is no way to have a DDA compliant walkway beside a DDA compliant toilet on the train. There are also a fair number of stations which are too narrow at the ends to safely load wheelchairs on to the train in the first/last cars, making that a difficult option to implement also.

Unfortunately without that accessible pathway between carriages you don't make it to the compliant number of priority seating within one carriage hence it is spread over two. Which makes it all the more hard to believe someone didn't notice the aisle was non compliant when they spread them over two.

[InclusionMoves]

Oh and don't take offence anyone I am not having a go at anyone whatsoever I understand its me fronting this so of course I will get asked my opinion but its important to note that what Inclusion Moves thinks would be acceptable isn't actually relevant as strange as that may sound. Its taken us a while to convince powers that be that this is legislated compliance which is either met or not met its a binary state. Not a matter of opinions of one person or a group of people. Even if there was to be a solution that a small group of people with a disability "liked" then it would still be open to complaint (and possible remove of trains from the track for remedial work) if it was non compliant to the relevant standards.   

[petey3801]

Out of interest, how many wheelchair spaces are required for a 6-car train?

[InclusionMoves]

Out of interest, how many wheelchair spaces are required for a 6-car train?

See section 9.6 obviously combining spaces on NGR which is allowed to allow for bigger chairs https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2011C00213

[300LA]

Would something like this be feasible?

Working on the assumption that 3 types of wagons make up each of the already delivered NGRs.
Wagons with driver controls (#1 & #6)
Basic no frills wagons (#2 & #5)
Wagons with toilets (#3 & #4)

Wagons #3 & #4 to be renovated with toilets moved to the ends of the wagons (as per the current configuration), toilets to be made DDA compliant without the need for a passing corridor beside it.  This opportunity can then be used to reinstate a guard's compartment in the centre of the train.

Driver controls tol be left out of the 'guards compartments'. (To try and keep costs as low as possible).
This will prevent future 3car running as trains wont be bidirectional. For memory, IIRC, NGRs were designed as 6car units ( vs 2x 3cars) to reduce costs associated with driver controls(?).

[InclusionMoves]

Would something like this be feasible?

Working on the assumption that 3 types of wagons make up each of the already delivered NGRs.
Wagons with driver controls (#1 & #6)
Basic no frills wagons (#2 & #5)
Wagons with toilets (#3 & #4)

Wagons #3 & #4 to be renovated with toilets moved to the ends of the wagons (as per the current configuration), toilets to be made DDA compliant without the need for a passing corridor beside it.  This opportunity can then be used to reinstate a guard's compartment in the centre of the train.

Driver controls tol be left out of the 'guards compartments'. (To try and keep costs as low as possible).
This will prevent future 3car running as trains wont be bidirectional. For memory, IIRC, NGRs were designed as 6car units ( vs 2x 3cars) to reduce costs associated with driver controls(?).

In theory makes the most sense I have heard in a long time. Like I said earlier though possibilities are just that without willingness to admit things have gone bad and purse strings to implement the solution. We are still at step 1 admitting there is a problem.

[Stillwater]

There is an absolute and universal obligation to meet the requirements of the DDA.  The associated regulations, measurements etc. have the enforcement of law.  The specifications of the NGR trains, as configured currently, are unlawful.  There can be no fudging by a centimetre here or there.  QR faces the full force of the law, and stiff penalties if they put the NGR trains into service as they stand.  The exemption that QR seems to be contemplating relying upon was designed for circumstances where a fleet of vehicles was nearing the end of its life and a refit so close to the point of obsolescence would be costly and uneconomic.  These are new trains. The assisted travel provisions also covered circumstances where a fleet of vehicles in, say, two years time, was about to go into a refit where the rolling stock would be made compliant to the DDA.  No situation should be countenanced whereby a government agency that is responsible for upholding the law should circumvent or flout it.  These laws were hard-won and there should be no going back.

[InclusionMoves]

There is an absolute and universal obligation to meet the requirements of the DDA.  The associated regulations, measurements etc. have the enforcement of law.  The specifications of the NGR trains, as configured currently, are unlawful.  There can be no fudging by a centimetre here or there.  QR faces the full force of the law, and stiff penalties if they put the NGR trains into service as they stand.  The exemption that QR seems to be contemplating relying upon was designed for circumstances where a fleet of vehicles was nearing the end of its life and a refit so close to the point of obsolescence would be costly and uneconomic.  These are new trains. The assisted travel provisions also covered circumstances where a fleet of vehicles in, say, two years time, was about to go into a refit where the rolling stock would be made compliant to the DDA.  No situation should be countenanced whereby a government agency that is responsible for upholding the law should circumvent or flout it.  These laws were hard-won and there should be no going back.

Here here!!!

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/InclusionMoves/status/874873442285256704

[ozbob]

There is an absolute and universal obligation to meet the requirements of the DDA.  The associated regulations, measurements etc. have the enforcement of law.  The specifications of the NGR trains, as configured currently, are unlawful.  There can be no fudging by a centimetre here or there.  QR faces the full force of the law, and stiff penalties if they put the NGR trains into service as they stand.  The exemption that QR seems to be contemplating relying upon was designed for circumstances where a fleet of vehicles was nearing the end of its life and a refit so close to the point of obsolescence would be costly and uneconomic.  These are new trains. The assisted travel provisions also covered circumstances where a fleet of vehicles in, say, two years time, was about to go into a refit where the rolling stock would be made compliant to the DDA.  No situation should be countenanced whereby a government agency that is responsible for upholding the law should circumvent or flout it.  These laws were hard-won and there should be no going back.

Support!   

[verbatim9]

^^Be cheaper to raise platforms where needed at the ends of each station? Assisted boarding would be easier. Eventually the trains will become DOO from political and consumer pressure anyway. Just run all the new trains on the Airport/Gold Coast line and the express pattern Caboolture line. Done and Dusted.

Sent from my XT1562 using Tapatalk

[#Metro]

I agree that platform straightening and extension is the only way to go.

This idea of only raising the middle part of the platform is classic "Queensland".

Time it was fixed forever.

[tazzer9]

I don't understand why they didn't simply have 2 toilets located at the ends.    I know it saves a little bit of money on purchase and operationally makes it slightly easier to drain, but having the toilet in the middle doesn't make sense when that is generally the area which has the highest passenger loadings.   Only the Ferny grove has loadings heavily weighted towards one end of the train.

[Stillwater]

I am thinking of the Traveston Crossing Dam -- big project, fell at the last hurdle, government took a financial haircut, in the hundreds of millions.  Would we see a situation where the government will refuse to take any more trains in, pulling the rug from the contract, asking that the bulk of the fleet not yet delivered be sold off to another narrow gauge passenger system, keeping the 15 delivered so far for Commonwealth Games, then getting rid of them down the track.  Start all over again.

[Gazza]

I literally don't get why they didn't just put the toilet at the other end of the room like in the IMU160 units? And a thinner wall to get 1150 width?

[ozbob]

Days since NGR 701 towed to Wulkuraka

[SurfRail]

I literally don't get why they didn't just put the toilet at the other end of the room like in the IMU160 units? And a thinner wall to get 1150 width?

Only one toilet so putting it in the middle makes it easier to get to for everybody - barring the DDA stuffups.

[red dragin]

Why not just loose the fancy door, p**s off the intercarriage doorway and fit another toilet in the other car?

So you end with two toilets, one each in cars 3 & 4, and you loose the "full walk through" feature which is nothing more than a gimmick IMO.