New Generation Rollingstock

[HappyTrainGuy]

Two months ago appointed ... 

It would have been appropriate to have contacted me by now to explain the delay or outcome in the assessment of our request for audits.

This NGR botch now smells, big time ... as do the LNP & ALP ...

3 letters.

T M R

[Stillwater]

Could we have a similar counter showing the number of days until the next state election is due?  That way the pollies could compare the two. 

[ozbob]

Could we have a similar counter showing the number of days until the next state election is due?  That way the pollies could compare the two. 

Latest that can be held is 5th May 2018 [ https://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/work-of-assembly/sitting-dates/ElectionFAQ ]

Countdown to that date > here!

[ozbob]

Why DDA issues really matter ..

What is the end game of New Generation Rollingstock disability non compliance. Suggest @jackietrad watches this https://t.co/AbVyj7Bcuo

— Inclusion Moves (@InclusionMoves) May 27, 2017

[Stillwater]

Tick, tick, tick ... 348 days to go until a state election must be held.  Will NGR disability access issues be solved by then, with the trains in service, will the CRR project be funded?  Watch this space. 

[ozbob]

When are the #NGR trains being put in service @jackietrad @N_Scales_TMR ?
Another monumental botch courtesy @TMRQld et al hey?#qldpol pic.twitter.com/HaPiKKKFiQ

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 27, 2017

^

@jackietrad @N_Scales_TMR @TMRQld @QLDLabor @LNPQLD @AndrewPowellMP @brisbanetimes @AnnastaciaMP @JimMaddenMP @JenMP4Ipswich @QldGreens @qld_times New Generation Rollingstock - DDA compliant or not?
> https://t.co/7c3a7Plehx#qldpol #NGRfail #RPLfail #CRRfail #railfail < link ? pic.twitter.com/hVoUfy6ifZ

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 27, 2017

@jackietrad @N_Scales_TMR @TMRQld @QLDLabor @LNPQLD @AndrewPowellMP @brisbanetimes @AnnastaciaMP @JimMaddenMP @JenMP4Ipswich @QldGreens @qld_times In case you haven&#39;t noticed @QueenslandRail OTR is actually worse now - because of constant mechanical issues - new trains needed!#qldpol

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 27, 2017

@jackietrad @N_Scales_TMR @TMRQld @QLDLabor @LNPQLD @AndrewPowellMP @brisbanetimes @AnnastaciaMP @JimMaddenMP @JenMP4Ipswich @QldGreens @qld_times @QueenslandRail v @brisbanetimes https://t.co/gJ2IopwA6h#qldpol
service cuts & still struggling. @QueenslandRail ELT & Board should have been shunted 2016 pic.twitter.com/hZy7KxX8aM

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 27, 2017

[ozbob]

[BrizCommuter]

Queensland Rail - Set-up to fail?
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/qr-set-up-to-fail.html

[ozbob]

ABC News --> Woman in wheelchair left stranded on Brisbane train; Deputy Premier apologises

A woman in a wheelchair was left stranded in a Brisbane railyard after Queensland Rail employees forgot to help her disembark from a train, with Deputy Premier Jackie Trad since apologising to the woman.

Karin Swift was catching her regular train to work last Tuesday morning when she informed staff at Central station she would need help to get off two stops later at Bowen Hills.

When she arrived, no-one came to help her disembark and before she knew it the train was pulling away from the station.

"I started to scream out thinking someone would realise what had happened and come and no-one did," she said.

"Next thing I know the train is pulling into some kind of train storage space and I'm pretty much left for dead."

The 44-year-old was unable to reach the emergency button, but managed to find a Translink phone number on her go card and told the person on the other end of the call of her predicament.

    "It took about 45 minutes to get another crew on board and move the train back to Bowen Hills, and it was really scary," she said.

Ms Swift said she was more than 90 minutes late for work and had been left feeling traumatised.

"That night I had a dream that I was experiencing the same thing, but my phone battery was flat and I was unable to call anyone," she said.

Ms Trad has apologised on behalf of the Government.

"It's indefensible, it should not have happened," she said.

But disability advocate Geoff Trappett said it was far from an isolated case.

    "This incident with Karin is one of five I've heard of in the last few days and that speaks volumes about the incidents that are occurring, and that people with a disability are used to being treated this way," he said.

It has prompted a change in Queensland Rail policy, with station staff now required to remain with anyone requiring help on a terminated train until the guard comes to assist.

Design flaws need to be fixed in new trains: advocate

Disability advocates said these types of incidents highlighted their concerns with State Government proposals to fix access problems in the $4.4-billion New Generation Rollingstock project.

Design flaws mean people in wheelchairs would still need assistance to get on and off the new trains.

The guard space will be located at the rear of the train, and Mr Trappett said one of the proposals put forward by Queensland Rail was that two extra staff be located in the middle carriage.

But that plan came as a surprise to Ms Trad.

"I don't know where those reports have come from but that's not going to happen," she said.

Mr Trappett said the only real solution was for the New Generation Rollingstock to be redesigned.

[ozbob]

Woman in wheelchair left stranded on Brisbane train; Deputy Premier apologiseshttps://t.co/3WnSESWE71 pic.twitter.com/5nGXhwXvsE

— ABC News Brisbane (@ABCNewsBrisbane) May 28, 2017

^

@ABCNewsBrisbane Disability sector has proof of offer being put on table by @QueenslandRail Suggest @jackietrad needs to find staff willing to give her facts

— Inclusion Moves (@InclusionMoves) May 28, 2017

^

@InclusionMoves @ABCNewsBrisbane @QueenslandRail @jackietrad Very concerning that there are still major communication issues re these #NGR trains and DDA compliance or otherwise.#baddream#qldpol

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 28, 2017

[ozbob]

Queensland Rail - Set-up to fail?
http://brizcommuter.blogspot.com.au/2017/05/qr-set-up-to-fail.html

Thanks ..   

BrizCommuter@QueenslandRail - Set-up to Fail?
> https://t.co/rkli6Dg970#qldpol #NGRfail@jackietrad @AndrewPowellMP @QLDLabor @LNPQLD pic.twitter.com/1ccafu2NaO

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 28, 2017

Sent to all outlets as well.  I note DP Trad is now saying  ' knows nuffin ' about extra crew on NGR and will not happen.

Hello  hello ...  gets worse they  ... 

[ozbob]

@PandM4012 I&#39;ve spoken with @JackieTrad and @QueenslandRail about accessibility + we are working around the clock to resolve issues

— Coralee O&#39;Rourke (@CoraleeORourke) May 25, 2017

[ozbob]

[#Metro]

Time to put QLD Gov't into administration hey?

The government seems only interested in creating new jobs in the creative industries rather than rail.

Specifically video production/animation and public relations/communications. Two major growth areas of late.

[ozbob]

Inclusion Moves has been forced to make comment on comment made today by @jackietrad in an article on @ABCNewsBrisbane @QueenslandRail pic.twitter.com/UtwbdOfKm3

— Inclusion Moves (@InclusionMoves) May 28, 2017

[ozbob]

[ozbob]

Please answer this simple question @jackietrad @N_Scales_TMR
Are the #NGR trains DDA compliant?
Yes, or no?
If no what is the fix?#qldpol pic.twitter.com/lxaaz59vE2

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 28, 2017

[ozbob]

Does appear systemic communication problems again within the Minister <> DTMR  <> Queensland Rail chain.

It seems it was Queensland Rail (but both DTMR and QR would have been aware I am sure) put forward the three solutions to the Disability Group representatives related to guard at rear.  It is really concerning that the Minister claims she was not aware of plans to put CSOs on board the NGRs to overcome some of the DDA issues. In any case she has said this will not happen (CSOs).  So this really only leaves three options - guards travel from the rear of the NGR to assist as needed if no station staff available.  Permanent station staff at DDA compliant stations. Modify the trains so that they are more functional with respect to DDA requirements.

There are still other problems though with the DDA compliance of the trains in terms of access and toilets it seems.  No one in authority has so far stated if the trains are compliant or not!

What a nightmare all this is now.

[#Metro]

Hmm. Not everything that public servants discuss are minister-approved.

The public servants could have been just canvassing various options hypothetically.

In all of this, there seems to be no technical drawing or diagram of the NGR Train floor plan, which seems absurd.

Is the NGR floorplan and associated measurements cabinet confidential or commercial in confidence? Legal privilege perhaps?

Do they realise that the moment a member of the public walks into the train, they are going to see what the layout looks like??


From what I can gather, it is the toilet that is non-compliant and the passageway between carriages that is also non-compliant.

But without a floorplan diagram, it is very difficult to see this. When is Jackie Trad going to release the NGR train floorplan?


I wonder if the toilet compartment can be made bigger, and perhaps the access to the carriage by the guard/driver door removed. Or maybe that

would not work because guard/driver access from the cabin would not be possible while the train was in service (except at stations?).

And the passageway between trains - if that is too narrow - then what? cut out the section and make it bigger perhaps? Sounds like a nightmare

to re-engineer.

[Stillwater]

We should watch the State Budget carefully and check the expenditure line items forensically.  There will be a sum of money that will have to be included in the Budget to fix the mess.  Either the government won't reveal the cost of the 'fix', or it will, but is waiting for the Budget to be announced.

Don't expect to see a line item for NGR trains (there will be, but not for the 'extra' cost of modifications to existing NGR).  The cost will be hidden under a heading such as 'rolling stock servicing and maintenance' and there will be a blurb about how the government is responding to 'mechanical issues' etc.  Or their will be a funny, exotic name such as 'rail futures adaptation'.

[#Metro]

We should watch the State Budget carefully and check the expenditure line items forensically.  There will be a sum of money that will have to be included in the Budget to fix the mess.  Either the government won't reveal the cost of the 'fix', or it will, but is waiting for the Budget to be announced.

Where is the Auditor-General? They should be all over this.

[verbatim9]

The WC module (toilet) in the carriage is big enough for disability access and usage just not accessible from adjoining carriages. Is there going to be many instances when people in electric wheelchairs will need to go through multiple adjoining carriages to use the WC? Or can signage be installed for such a carriage on the outside like a sticker (Disability WC access this carriage?) They have those stickers on the outside of trains in Europe (pics of toilets) I believe the Archie Luxury Channel in that the Government are using stalling tactics until there is enough train engineers to drive the trains. Maybe the line of sight has been an issue but sure an easy fix same as hard braking. Siemens trains in Melbourne had an issue with braking but seemed to be worked out with software upgrades and tweaking.

[ozbob]

^^ Verbatim9

I understand there are issues with the toilets relating to pan location, access and lack of the required manoeuver space as legislated.

We are waiting confirmation of the exact measurements. 

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

26th May 2017 re-sent 29th May 2017

New Generation Rollingstock - DDA compliant or not?

Good Morning,

A recent sad incident when a disabled Queensland Rail passenger was overlooked and was taken to a holding ( ? stabling ) yard before she was discovered, has only reinforced concerns of disability groups and ourselves with how the New Generation Rollingstock trains will meet disability requirements.



I was contacted last September (2016) and told there would be a public announcement of the disability action plan for NGR trains shortly (within hours).  The call was a courtesy call as I had previously expressed concerns. A couple of hours after the first call, I received a second call informing me that the ' announcement ' had been put off.

We are still waiting (May 2017) for an outline of the disability access plan for NGR trains.

This comes down to a fundamental question - Are the NGR trains as designed DDA compliant?

I was and still am sufficiently concerned to have requested an audit into the performance of DTMR and others concerning the New Generation Rollingstock.  I sent on behalf of RAIL Back On Track to the Queensland Auditor General a request on the 9th March 2017.  One week after that I received a telephone call from staff at the QAG acknowledging receipt, and the advice that I would be contacted in a reasonable time for an interview or otherwise.

Relevant part of the request to QAG:

New Generation Rolling stock

    NGR trains represent the largest single investment in Queensland in trains and is worth $4.4 billion over 32 years. These trains are particularly important for the realisation of the Cross River Rail project.

    Unfortunately, after 12 months of testing these trains are riddled with design issues and flaws requiring expensive modification. Such flaws include the lack of a space for a guard, modification required at 143 QR train stations to permit driver line-of-sight, problems with air conditioning and concerns about train braking rates, among others. Significantly, the trains appear to be disability non-compliant and are thus the subject of a petition by Australian Paralympic athlete Geoff Trappett OAM.

    RAIL Back on Track wants to know who is responsible for this expensive fiasco and delay that is impacting the people of Queensland. We are aware that despite the trains being manufactured in India, the train design work was performed in Milton, Brisbane. A key part of any investigation will thus be securing a copy of the train design files. This will reveal whether the Queensland Government approved design was disability non-compliant to begin with, or whether the design requested was compliant but not adhered to at the factory end.

Still waiting.

Has the ' head in the sand ' approach spread to the QAG too?

Clearly there are major issues within Government circles.

Time the truth was told Deputy Premier.

Can the authorities get off their high horses of failure and inform the community one way or the other as to what is going on with this botched NGR project please?

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ Attached: https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg192878#msg192878 ]

[ozbob]

New Generation Rollingstock - DDA compliant or not?
> https://t.co/Pi7J8rCtJU#qldpol #NGRfail@jackietrad @N_Scales_TMR @InclusionMoves pic.twitter.com/xc8DTtADuC

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 28, 2017

[ozbob]

@jackietrad @N_Scales_TMR @InclusionMoves @AnnastaciaMP @Curtis_Pitt_MP @TMRQld @QueenslandRail @brisbanetimes @QuestNewspapers @JoAnnMillerMP @JimMaddenMP @qld_times Straight forward question. Yes or No ?
If not compliant, what is being done to make the #NGR trains compliant please?#qldpol pic.twitter.com/2g7VaaAIj1

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 28, 2017

[tazzer9]

I don't understand why the location of the toilet is such a big issue especially considering the current set up on our trains means the toilets aren't going to be accessible unless you board in the door right next to them. The same thing occurs on the OSCars's in NSW.  The Velocities in Victoria. 

[Stillwater]

It is not so much the location of the toilet on the train, but the ability of a person in a wheelchair to manoeuvre around in the space once inside the toilet.

[SurfRail]

Issues with the accessibility of the path to the toilet have also been flagged, but in practical terms if the toilet is already too small I don't know how you can fix that.

Currently, there is no DDA compliant access between any 2 carriages on the system.  If you aren't already in the toilet equipped car, you already need to leave the train.  The 100 and 120 series IMUs have an accessible corridor with perimeter seating which is tip-up on one side, meaning you can get from either door or the middle of the car to the toilet, while the 160s and 260s just have a more accessible vestibule closer to the toilet.

The concern seems to be access between the car immediately adjacent to the toilet car, and the toilet car.  I don't know if it is even possible to resolve that, but at the same time I don't think it's a huge issue because the toilet car will be the designated car for PWDs anyway and will always be in the middle of the train where the assisted boarding infrastructure is located.  (The position of the guard is another question altogether.)

If there is an issue with access from the DDA boarding point in the toilet car to the toilet itself, that is obviously a huge issue and needs fixing.

[ozbob]

This is the response from Inclusion Moves ..

@Robert_Dow @jackietrad @N_Scales_TMR @AnnastaciaMP @Curtis_Pitt_MP @TMRQld @QueenslandRail @brisbanetimes @QuestNewspapers @JoAnnMillerMP @JimMaddenMP @qld_times A no from me. Toilet dimensions comes up short. 2 accessible carriages but 1 with toilet joined by non compliant path. Not equitable access.

— Inclusion Moves (@InclusionMoves) May 28, 2017

[red dragin]

So the cabin ends of car 3 & 4 are compliant, just not the inter carriage passageway.

[Stillwater]

And neither are the loos.

[petey3801]

The access way between cars 3 and 4 is never going to be conpliant if the toilet is in the same location. It is phycially impossible to make a toilet large enough in the middle of the train while also having a big enough access way beside the toilet to the next carriage within the QR loading gauge. Simple fix is that the toilet car is the only car that wheelchairs go in to (unless the person specifically requests another location at least).

[mufreight]

The access between cars 3 and 4 can be widened by moving the toilet module deeper into the carriage and removing two of the seats opposite the module this would leave enough room for the passageway between the two carriages and also give enough room to enlarge the module and make it disability compliant with enough room to turn a wheelchair inside the toilet and transfer from a wheelchair on to the toilet making it compliant.

[SurfRail]

No thanks - it needs to be up the end, firstly so it is as close as possible to the middle of the train, and secondly so it doesn't interfere with passenger flow between the middle of the car and the doors.

Sorry, but I just don't think the lack of a DDA compliant pathway between the 2 central carriages is a major problem.  Wheelchair pax are just going to be boarded in the toilet car, which completely solves the issue.

[ozbob]

Frankly I am amazed, that we are even having these discussions re DDA compliance or not.

I would have thought that would have been a given.  If the DDA compliance is botched, little wonder there are other issues I guess.

Even by Queensland standards, this is a really remarkable failure so far.

The LNP have not engaged on this at all.  Perhaps they understand their culpability in ordering a botched design and are playing dumb. 

I have no doubt that Bombardier are building to the design specifications.

[petey3801]

The access between cars 3 and 4 can be widened by moving the toilet module deeper into the carriage and removing two of the seats opposite the module this would leave enough room for the passageway between the two carriages and also give enough room to enlarge the module and make it disability compliant with enough room to turn a wheelchair inside the toilet and transfer from a wheelchair on to the toilet making it compliant.

How would moving the toilet module make any difference? There is still not enough room to make a disability compliant walkway alongside the toilet cubicle, wherever the toilet is located. The simple and logical solution is, as has been said many times, to have wheelchair pax loaded in to the toilet car, which is where the majority of wheelchair designated apaces are anyway.

[kram0]

This might be a stupid comment as I don't know the full story, but wouldn't it be easier just to remove the toilets and retrofit seats and introduce these units to suburban network? Then make sure all remaining units that are to be manufactured have toilets that are compliant?

[tazzer9]

This might be a stupid comment as I don't know the full story, but wouldn't it be easier just to remove the toilets and retrofit seats and introduce these units to suburban network? Then make sure all remaining units that are to be manufactured have toilets that are compliant?

I would much rather have 2% of the population not be able to use something than have no one be able to use it.  Toilets on trains should also be on the suburban network, as it is still a decent travel time to the outer suburbs. 

[ozbob]

This might be a stupid comment as I don't know the full story, but wouldn't it be easier just to remove the toilets and retrofit seats and introduce these units to suburban network? Then make sure all remaining units that are to be manufactured have toilets that are compliant?

I would much rather have 2% of the population not be able to use something than have no one be able to use it.  Toilets on trains should also be on the suburban network, as it is still a decent travel time to the outer suburbs.

tazzer9 I would much rather have something that 100% of the population can reasonably expect to use.  The DDA battle was a long one, with a fair outcome in the end.  These are not trivial matters, the legislation demands that that everyone have access.  The issues with the NGR, if there are DDA issues (we are still waiting for official confirmation although I do believe the Disability Advocates when they say there are issues) need to be sorted so the entire community is catered for.  The legislation does allow for for some reasonable direct assistance outcomes.  So all is not lost, yet.

The fact that the authorities have clammed up does not look promising however.  Why did the DP cease the importing of the NGR trains?

What were the real reasons behind this decision? Something really amiss here. 

There are clearly issues other than just DDA.