New Generation Rollingstock

[ozbob]

Rail Express --> Questions remain over NGR roll-out date

The company building Queensland's new train fleet has promised that the first vehicles will be servicing the state's passengers in the near future, with the reported design issues having been resolved or on their way to being resolved.

Media criticism has plagued the $4.4 billion project in recent months, and comments by the state Labor government have only served to increase doubt and speculation regarding the roll-out date for the first trains.

For instance, The Courier-Mail recently reported that state transport minister Jackie Trad "cannot say when braking, sightline, disability access, air-conditioning and ventilation issues will be ­resolved", and that she expects the trains to be running by the end of this year.

However, Qtectic, the Bombardier-led consortium that has been building the new fleet, was reported by Future Rail magazine that the braking issues identified on the first trains have already been resolved.

The New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) was initially ordered by the Newman government in 2014, but delivery was halted in March this year by the Labor government, reportedly due to operational and design issues — in the braking system, air-conditioning, ventilation and driver visibility — which had been apparent since on-track testing last year.

The delay in the roll-out for the new fleet has since become the subject of a blame game between the government and the opposition. Transport minister Jackie Trad accused the previous Newman government of signing-off on faulty designs, while former Liberal ministers have pushed back, claiming that the current setbacks are due to Labor's mishandling of the situation.

A spokesperson for Qtectic confirmed to Future Rail that design and performance requirements for the new trains had been established in 2013 after consultation Department of Transport and Main Roads, Queensland Rail, the disability sector and other user groups.

"The trains are then tested to ensure they meet all requirements and safety standards before entering passenger service. For all new train projects, especially of this size and complexity, it is not uncommon to identify issues during testing," the spokesperson said.

Qtectic had already stated in March that resolving design issues were a normal part of the testing process for new trains.

"During any testing process it is normal for issues to arise, when that happens all parties work together to come to a successful solution," Andrew Dudgeon, spokesman for the consortium said.

Of the 75 trains on order, 15 have been delivered by Qtectic to Queensland so far.  Minister Trad was reported by the ABC as saying that the government planned on having these 15 trains ready before the onset of the Commonwealth games next year.

"We need to operationalise some of the New Generational Rollingstock in time for the Commonwealth Games ... in order to meet the additional demand that our network will experience at that time," she said.

"We're hoping that we can get these trains on the network as soon as it is safely possible to do so."

A full technical assessment has been ordered by the government to ascertain what changes may need to be made to the trains to make them operational, while staff from the Department of Transport and Main Roads have reportedly met with the manufacturers to find solutions for the rest of the fleet.

"My view is there won't be significant changes — there might be some minor changes and we don't know whether or not they're going to cost taxpayers money at this stage," Trad said.

"[W]e hope that the issues will be resolved and they will be in service before too long."

For their part, Qtectic has affirmed that it is working with the government to get the trains on to tracks servicing passengers.

"Testing is ongoing as part of commissioning these trains. Queensland Rail is fully involved in this testing and we are continuing to work with the government and Queensland Rail as part of this process," Dudgeon said.

"These are state of the art trains which we want to see in service as soon as possible."

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

16th May 2017

New Generation Rollingstock trains smokescreen

Good Morning,

Real shame we find out more about the NGR new trains from external media sources than we do from our State Government and Transport Authorities. The open and transparent rhetoric by Government is absurd nonsense.

It must be clear to all now that unless there is a complete restructure and overhaul of how public transport is administered and delivered in Queensland the succession of failures will continue. The Department of Transport and Main Roads is not able to manage heavy rail properly.  This is very clear.

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

1.  Bombardier hits cash snag on Australian train order > http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bombardier-railways-australia-analysi-idUSKBN17F2LO

2.  Questions remain over NGR roll-out date > https://www.railexpress.com.au/questions-remain-over-ngr-roll-out-date/

The company building Queensland's new train fleet has promised that the first vehicles will be servicing the state's passengers in the near future, with the reported design issues having been resolved or on their way to being resolved.

Media criticism has plagued the $4.4 billion project in recent months, and comments by the state Labor government have only served to increase doubt and speculation regarding the roll-out date for the first trains.

For instance, The Courier-Mail recently reported that state transport minister Jackie Trad "cannot say when braking, sightline, disability access, air-conditioning and ventilation issues will be ­resolved", and that she expects the trains to be running by the end of this year.

However, Qtectic, the Bombardier-led consortium that has been building the new fleet, was reported by Future Rail magazine that the braking issues identified on the first trains have already been resolved.

The New Generation Rollingstock (NGR) was initially ordered by the Newman government in 2014, but delivery was halted in March this year by the Labor government, reportedly due to operational and design issues — in the braking system, air-conditioning, ventilation and driver visibility — which had been apparent since on-track testing last year.

The delay in the roll-out for the new fleet has since become the subject of a blame game between the government and the opposition. Transport minister Jackie Trad accused the previous Newman government of signing-off on faulty designs, while former Liberal ministers have pushed back, claiming that the current setbacks are due to Labor's mishandling of the situation.

A spokesperson for Qtectic confirmed to Future Rail that design and performance requirements for the new trains had been established in 2013 after consultation Department of Transport and Main Roads, Queensland Rail, the disability sector and other user groups.

"The trains are then tested to ensure they meet all requirements and safety standards before entering passenger service. For all new train projects, especially of this size and complexity, it is not uncommon to identify issues during testing," the spokesperson said.

Qtectic had already stated in March that resolving design issues were a normal part of the testing process for new trains.

"During any testing process it is normal for issues to arise, when that happens all parties work together to come to a successful solution," Andrew Dudgeon, spokesman for the consortium said.

Of the 75 trains on order, 15 have been delivered by Qtectic to Queensland so far.  Minister Trad was reported by the ABC as saying that the government planned on having these 15 trains ready before the onset of the Commonwealth games next year.

"We need to operationalise some of the New Generational Rollingstock in time for the Commonwealth Games ... in order to meet the additional demand that our network will experience at that time," she said.

"We're hoping that we can get these trains on the network as soon as it is safely possible to do so."

A full technical assessment has been ordered by the government to ascertain what changes may need to be made to the trains to make them operational, while staff from the Department of Transport and Main Roads have reportedly met with the manufacturers to find solutions for the rest of the fleet.

"My view is there won't be significant changes — there might be some minor changes and we don't know whether or not they're going to cost taxpayers money at this stage," Trad said.

"[W]e hope that the issues will be resolved and they will be in service before too long."

For their part, Qtectic has affirmed that it is working with the government to get the trains on to tracks servicing passengers.

"Testing is ongoing as part of commissioning these trains. Queensland Rail is fully involved in this testing and we are continuing to work with the government and Queensland Rail as part of this process," Dudgeon said.

"These are state of the art trains which we want to see in service as soon as possible."

[ozbob]

Latest media: New Generation Rollingstock trains smokescreen
> https://t.co/WZ5qJoK6L3#qldpol@jackietrad @AndrewPowellMP @TMRQld pic.twitter.com/UoxD98AELN

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 15, 2017

^

.@jackietrad @AndrewPowellMP @TMRQld @brisbanetimes @qld_times @QLDLabor @LNPQLD @QldGreens @JimMaddenMP @Curtis_Pitt_MP @7NewsQueensland @9NewsQueensland Concerned?
You should be ' mechanical issues are causing daily disruptions on @QueenslandRail now ..#qldpol#nowheretohide

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 15, 2017

Concerned @SmartState1 @katejonesqld
You should be ' mechanical issues are causing daily disruptions on @QueenslandRail now ..#qldpol https://t.co/BPYRL97A9n

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 15, 2017

[ozbob]

" ... Media criticism has plagued the $4.4 billion project in recent months, and comments by the state Labor government have only served to increase doubt and speculation regarding the roll-out date for the first trains. ... "

Total shambles ...  unable to articulate a clear statement for the citizens of Queensland, who after all are the ones paying for this botch!

The fact that the Queensland Rail train fleet is falling apart with daily ' mechanical issues ' impacting on services leading to numerous cancellations and delays is compounding all of this. 

Queenslander!

[ozbob]

.@jackietrad @AndrewPowellMP @TMRQld @brisbanetimes @qld_times @QLDLabor @LNPQLD @QldGreens @JimMaddenMP @Curtis_Pitt_MP @7NewsQueensland @9NewsQueensland Time to come clean ...
> https://t.co/Q4tjGIxsV4#qldpol pic.twitter.com/W286WKqYCn

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 15, 2017

[Stillwater]

Don't worry Ozbob, the Citytrain Response Unit has things in hand.    

[ozbob]

Don't worry Ozbob, the Citytrain Response Unit has things in hand.    

The only saving grace for the CRU is that they are tasked with a review of transport governance ..

" ... scoping a review of transport governance,
with a view to identifying an appropriate model for a closely
integrated public transport system for Queensland .."

http://www.cru.qld.gov.au/resources/Fixing%20the%20trains%20-%20High-level%20implementation%20plan.pdf page 7

Remains to be seen if this turns into anything of substance however.

Public transport must be removed from DTMR and set up as a separate authority eg. PTA WA.

[ozbob]

Future Rail Magazine Article

TESTING TIMES FOR QUEENSLAND'S NEW TRAINS
http://www.nridigital.com/future-rail-magazine/june-2017.html?wv=s%2FFuture%2520Rail%2520Magazine%2Fc8be49da-e71f-5aa9-a95f-4fe72c7d04a6%2FFR1706%2Fqueensland.html

Have made a PDF of the article:

> here! PDF 1.2 MB

[ozbob]

Sent to all outlets:

17th May 2017

New Generation Rollingstock trains failure global ...

Greetings,

For your interest the (International) Future Rail Magazine article may be accessed here:

TESTING TIMES FOR QUEENSLAND'S NEW TRAINS
http://www.nridigital.com/future-rail-magazine/june-2017.html?wv=s%2FFuture%2520Rail%2520Magazine%2Fc8be49da-e71f-5aa9-a95f-4fe72c7d04a6%2FFR1706%2Fqueensland.html

I have also a compiled a PDF of the article > http://backontrack.org/docs/futurerail/futurerailMay17.pdf

Queensland's New Generation Rollingstock failure has gone global ....

Take a bow clowns!

Best wishes
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track https://backontrack.org

[ Attached:  https://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3706.msg192512#msg192512 ]

[ozbob]

Latest media: ' New Generation Rollingstock trains failure global ... '
> https://t.co/bqppHWCG9J#qldpol@jackietrad @AndrewPowellMP pic.twitter.com/9v7wIT04jB

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 16, 2017

^

@jackietrad @AndrewPowellMP @QLDLabor @LNPQLD @QldGreens @AnnastaciaMP @TimNichollsMP @brisbanetimes @qld_times @JoAnnMillerMP @JimMaddenMP Time for clarification on the issues & timelines.
Public transport management & delivery in Queensland is a failure & botched!#qldpol pic.twitter.com/8djwP0SzBn

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 16, 2017

[ozbob]

Future Rail ' TESTING TIMES FOR QUEENSLAND'S NEW TRAINS '
> https://t.co/r5mkcgFkkX#qldpol #auspol#NGRfail #railfail compounds daily .. pic.twitter.com/egqOAz0G5X

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 16, 2017

[ozbob]

ABC News --> Queensland's $4.4bn train fleet cast into doubt amid revelations of similar delays overseas

The delivery of Queensland's $4.4 billion train fleet has been cast into doubt again amid revelations of similar delays overseas.

The rollout of the fleet — built in a Bombardier plant in India —is still months away after it was halted by the State Government in March when significant design issues were discovered.

The fleet was ordered in January 2014, under the previous Newman government, which said at the time they were coming in at half the price the previous government had paid for its rollingstock.

It was supposed to begin rolling out by the end of 2016, but on-track testing uncovered problems with braking, air-conditioning, ventilation, sightlines for train drivers, and disability access.

Bombardier, a Canadian based transport company, has come under fire for two separate delayed public transport projects in its home country amid significant financial problems.

One project involves the botched delivery of more than 200 new streetcars for the city of Toronto, with several missed deadlines in the last five years.

The other contract relates to dozens of new light rail vehicles ordered by the Government for a separate cross-town line on Toronto's outskirts.

Last week the Ontario Transportation Minister Steven Del Duca announced a new deal with Bombardier's competitor to deliver additional light rail vehicles in case Bombardier failed to deliver its fleet for the cross-town line.

    "Over the past several months, Metrolinx has had significant concerns regarding Bombardier's ability to deliver quality vehicles according to the contract schedule," he said in a statement.

"The stakes are too high to sit idly by without a viable alternative."

The matter has now gone to court, as Bombardier tries to hang onto the $770 million contract.

Bombardier, one of the largest transportation businesses in the world, is set to receive $370 million from the Canadian Government in the form of an interest-free loan.

Last year, Canadian media reported CEO Alain Bellemare said the company was considering bankruptcy in 2015.

He now says the business is improving.
Jackie Trad confident issues will be resolved

Despite the developments, Queensland Minister for Transport Jackie Trad said she still believed Queensland's fleet would get on track.

    "I have confidence the issues are being worked through as quickly as possible so we can have safe reliable trains on our network this year," she said.

In a statement issued by Qtectic, a spokesperson said delays were not uncommon in new train projects.

"The first new-generation rollingstock trains are due to be on the network later this year, and the Department of Transport and Main Roads, Queensland Rail and Qtectic are working around the clock to ensure that the trains enter passenger service as soon as possible, without compromising safety," it said.

"Consortium member Bombardier has a long record of constructing high-quality trains throughout the world.

    "For all new train projects, especially of this size and complexity, it is not uncommon to experience some delays as issues are identified during testing and rectified accordingly."

Contract 'should gone to Australian company'

Fifteen of the 75 trains have already arrived in Queensland but cannot be commissioned until they undergo modification.

Rail, Tram and Bus Union state secretary Owen Doogan said the manufacturing should never have been awarded to an offshore company.

"We have a history of reliability of manufacturing in this country," he said.

    "We should be building our trains and all rollingstock in Australia and we will certainly not renege from that position."

The Opposition's Scott Emerson, who was transport minister when the deal Bombardier contract was signed, said it was up to the new Government to ensure the trains were operational.

"This project continues to seem to have problems after problems," he said.

"The problems weren't there when we left office. This project was on track when we left office."

[#Metro]

Fifteen of the 75 trains have already arrived in Queensland but cannot be commissioned until they undergo modification.

Rail, Tram and Bus Union state secretary Owen Doogan said the manufacturing should never have been awarded to an offshore company.

"We have a history of reliability of manufacturing in this country," he said.

"We should be building our trains and all rollingstock in Australia and we will certainly not renege from that position."

Consider this. The Toronto Transit Commission did buy locally as Bombardier already have a plant in Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada.

They STILL screwed the order. So that just blows this "if we bought it locally at higher prices it would not have happened" argument out

of the water. Planes, cars and bus kits are routinely bought from overseas.

Bombardier wins $1.2 billion Toronto streetcar bid
http://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCATRE53Q6S520090428

TORONTO (Reuters) - Toronto's transit authority confirmed on Monday it will award a $1.2 billion contract to build a fleet of streetcars to Canadian transportation giant Bombardier Inc BBDb.TO.

Paul Pugh, president of Canadian Auto Workers local 1075 at the Bombardier plant in Thunder Bay, Ontario, where the streetcars will be built, said the initial order will mean up to 300 jobs and provide work for up to eight years.

"It's huge, because the Thunder Bay economy has been devastated because the base of the economy is forestry and mining, and there are simply no jobs left in those sectors," he said.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexity_Outlook_(Toronto_streetcar)

According to TTC CEO Andy Byford, the first Flexity streetcars were so poorly manufactured, the TTC would not accept them for fear they would break down on bumpy city streets. At the Thunder Bay plant, when workers went to attach the under-frame to the sidewalls, they had found they were not square. To solve the problem, they wanted to rivet the two pieces together. The TTC rejected that solution, as according to Byford, rivets pop. There were still issues with loose screws, wiring and electrical connectors as of May 2015.

Vehicles are built to design specs. There is a file that has the design in it. There has to be.

They should release the design. Then it will become very clear who did what - whether the trains were ordered with flaws (i.e. DOO design) or not.

[ozbob]

The trains were ordered for DOO.  There is no doubt about that point.

As far as the other issues, documents would need to be examined in the context of true explanations as to what the issues are that is preventing these trains from being put into revenue passenger service.

Must be serious if the DP directed that the trains stopped being imported until issues resolved hey?

Bombardier is building a lot of stuff around the world.  VLocity trains in Victoria are Bombardier too, built locally.

[Stillwater]

Two things should happen immediately:

disability advocacy groups should signal to the state government that the day one of the NGR trains goes into service without addressing access issues for people in wheelchairs, to the trains or the on-board toilets, an action will be brought against QR under the Disability Discrimination Act.

the useless LNP Opposition should call upon the state government to disclose its 'Plan B' in circumstances where insufficient NGR trains can be made available at the time of the Commonwealth Games - that could involve bringing rolling stock out of mothballs or maybe, in extreme circumstances, even importing whole trains from another jurisdiction.

Who believes that this government will get things right re NGR before the Commonwealth Games?  That's Plan A - 'trust us'.

[bretto82]

Two things should happen immediately:

disability advocacy groups should signal to the state government that the day one of the NGR trains goes into service without addressing access issues for people in wheelchairs, to the trains or the on-board toilets, an action will be brought against QR under the Disability Discrimination Act

Why do people keep going on about qr stuffing up the ngr trains trundling own them not qr qr only operate them on behalf of TransLink dtmr just the way can do wanted it set up

[ozbob]

Yo Bretto.  NGR fail is a DTMR/TransLink managed failure ...

DTMR = the weakest link

[ozbob]

ANC News --> Queensland sticks by train manufacturer despite international concerns; still no date for delivery

The State Government has no plans to switch manufacturers for Queensland's problem-plagued fleet of new trains as authorities work out a remedy for design issues.

The trains were supposed to begin rolling out by the end of 2016, but on-track testing uncovered problems with braking, air-conditioning, ventilation, sightlines for train drivers, and disability access.

None of the $4.4 billion package has been paid to the Canadian-based manufacturer Bombardier since the State Government halted the delivery in March.

Bombardier has been criticised over at least two other public transport projects overseas but Queensland Minister for Transport Jackie Trad says she has no plans to look elsewhere.

    "I have to say, we are not considering anything like that. I am 100 per cent focused on making sure we continue to resolve the outstanding issues. We know how important these trains are for Queensland," she said.

Queensland desperately needs these new electric trains on track, especially in time for next year's Commonwealth Games.

Ms Trad says at least 15 of the 75 trains are on track to be ready by the Commonwealth Games but they cannot be commissioned until design issues are fixed.

"We hope to get these trains on our network in order to meet our obligations around the Commonwealth Games, to ensure we're providing increased passenger services for the people of Queensland," Ms Trad said.

The Government will not reveal if the main problems stem from the pre-design phase of the project.

'Disability discrimination has just gone out the window'

Disability advocate Geoff Trappett was part of a group shown through one of the trains at the Ipswich maintenance facility this week.

He said there were still a number of disability access problems which still needed to be fixed.

"These issues are showstoppers. They're the kind of thing where a train can be put on the tracks and then brought off the track the next day because of a disability discrimination complaint. They're not in any way shape or form small issues," he said.

"It seems as though that the details of disability discrimination have just gone out the window on this occasion."

A statement from the consortium leading the project, Qtectic, said the first NGR trains were due to be on the network later this year.

"The Department of Transport and Main Roads, Queensland Rail and Qtectic are working around the clock to ensure that the trains enter passenger services as soon as possible without compromising safety," the statement reads.

"As a global leader in transportation, Bombardier has adopted the best practices and advantages of a local and global supply chain, using over 15 countries.

"This will ensure the delivery of new trains for Queenslanders that will be equal, or better in quality than any commuter trains across the globe."

[ozbob]

Qld sticks with train manufacturer despite delays issues > https://t.co/N7nwJ78vKC v @ABCNews#qldpol#NGRfail
Another failure by @TMRQld pic.twitter.com/keHZtxwS5D

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 19, 2017

^

@abcnews @TMRQld @jackietrad @InclusionMoves @N_Scales_TMR @AnnastaciaMP @Curtis_Pitt_MP @JoAnnMillerMP @JimMaddenMP @QLDLabor @LNPQLD @AndrewPowellMP Come clean with the truth. Clear detailed explanation of the issues & why imports of NGR ceased. Most unsatisfactory hey?#qldpol #NGRfail pic.twitter.com/ocpKKZKzJQ

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 19, 2017

@abcnews @TMRQld @jackietrad @InclusionMoves @N_Scales_TMR @AnnastaciaMP @Curtis_Pitt_MP @JoAnnMillerMP @JimMaddenMP @QLDLabor @LNPQLD @AndrewPowellMP Take a bow @TMRQld
You are the weakest link ..#qldpol #NGRfail #railfail #RPLfail #CRRfail pic.twitter.com/omhvOUMpJP

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 19, 2017

[ozbob]

Two things should happen immediately:

disability advocacy groups should signal to the state government that the day one of the NGR trains goes into service without addressing access issues for people in wheelchairs, to the trains or the on-board toilets, an action will be brought against QR under the Disability Discrimination Act.

the useless LNP Opposition should call upon the state government to disclose its 'Plan B' in circumstances where insufficient NGR trains can be made available at the time of the Commonwealth Games - that could involve bringing rolling stock out of mothballs or maybe, in extreme circumstances, even importing whole trains from another jurisdiction.

Who believes that this government will get things right re NGR before the Commonwealth Games?  That's Plan A - 'trust us'.

We are looking at a scenario where all lines other than the Gold Coast line have further service reductions to support the high frequency service on the GC line ...  reliable units will be allocated to the GC line too I expect.

Utter shambles ... heads should have rolled by now ...  no they still bumble on with the crop of bumbler fumblers that have overseen the whole rail fail situation.

[Stillwater]

Obviously, the Queensland Government thinks that if it hasn't passed a law, the law doesn't apply to it.  From time to time, the government needs to be reminded that we are part of Australia, subject to Australian law in circumstances where the Commonwealth has jurisdiction under the Constitution.

Here's the law:

Extract from the Disability Discrimination Act 1992 (amended 1 July 2016):

The objects of this Act are to eliminate, as far as possible, discrimination against persons on the ground of disability.

premises includes: (a)  a structure, building, aircraft, vehicle or vessel
services includes: (c)  services relating to transport or travel.

Direct disability discrimination
(1)  For the purposes of this Act, a person (the discriminator) discriminates against another person (the aggrieved person) on the ground of a disability of the aggrieved person if, because of the disability, the discriminator treats, or proposes to treat, the aggrieved person less favourably than the discriminator would treat a person without the disability in circumstances that are not materially different.

(2) For the purposes of this Act, a person (the discriminator) also discriminates against another person (the aggrieved person) on the ground of a disability of the aggrieved person if:

(a)  the discriminator does not make, or proposes not to make, reasonable adjustments for the person; and
(b)  the failure to make the reasonable adjustments has, or would have, the effect that the aggrieved person is, because of the disability, treated less favourably than a person without the disability would be treated in circumstances that are not materially different.

Extent to which Act binds the Crown
(1)  This Act binds the Crown in right of the Commonwealth and of each of the States.
(2)  This Act does not render the Crown in right of the Commonwealth or of a State liable to be prosecuted for an offence.

Explanation: For those suggesting that the Queensland Government cannot be prosecuted under this act, note the clause above.  However, QR is not protected from legal proceedings, as the operator of a conveyance service.

Access to premises

It is unlawful for a person to discriminate against another person on the ground of the other person's disability:

(a)  by refusing to allow the other person access to, or the use of, any premises that the public or a section of the public is entitled or allowed to enter or use (whether for payment or not); or
(b)  in the terms or conditions on which the first mentioned person is prepared to allow the other person access to, or the use of, any such premises; or
(c)  in relation to the provision of means of access to such premises; or
(d)  by refusing to allow the other person the use of any facilities in such premises that the public or a section of the public is entitled or allowed to use (whether for payment or not); or
(e)  in the terms or conditions on which the first mentioned person is prepared to allow the other person the use of any such facilities; or
(f)  by requiring the other person to leave such premises or cease to use such facilities.

Disability standards

(1)  The Minister may, by legislative instrument, formulate standards, to be known as disability standards, in relation to any area in which it is unlawful under this Part for a person to discriminate against another person on the ground of a disability of the other person.

NATIONAL DISABILITY STANDARDS

The functioning of the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) is supplemented by a series of Disability Standards and guidelines which provide more detail on rights and responsibilities about equal access and opportunity for people with a disability.

https://infrastructure.gov.au/transport/disabilities

The ... standards, as amended, are formulated by the Attorney-General under subsection 31 (1) of the DDA.The Minister for Infrastructure and Regional Development has responsibility for providing public transport policy advice on the Transport Standards.

A conveyance includes any of the following, to the extent that they are used to provide a public transport service:
(a)    aircraft;
(b)    buses or coaches;
(c)    ferries;
(d)    taxis;
(e)    trains, trams, light rail, monorails, rack railways;
(f)    any other rolling stock, vehicle or vessel classified as public transport within its jurisdiction by regulation or administrative action of any Government in Australia.

Equivalent access is a process, often involving the provision of direct assistance, under which an operator or provider is permitted to vary the equipment or facilities that give access to a public transport service, so long as an equivalent standard of amenity, availability, comfort, convenience, dignity, price and safety is maintained.

Infrastructure is any structure or facility that is used by passengers in conjunction with travelling on a public transport service.

An operator is a person or organisation (including the staff of the organisation) that provides a public transport service to the public or to sections of the public.

Subject to subsection (3) and section 2.7, an access path that allows continuous and unhindered passage must be provided with a minimum width of at least 850 mm. ... applies to doorways and stairs, and between entrances, exits, allocated spaces and other essential facilities for passengers using wheelchairs and other mobility aids.

If an access path cannot be provided, the operator must provide equivalent access by direct assistance.

A manoeuvring area must comply with AS1428.2 (1992) Clause 6.2, Circulation space for a 180 degree wheelchair turn.

Passengers in wheelchairs or mobility aids must be able to enter and exit a conveyance and position their aids in the allocated space.  If this is not practicable, operators must provide equivalent access by direct assistance.
If the design restrictions of a conveyance limit on board manoeuvring areas for wheelchairs and similar mobility aids, the operator of the conveyance must ensure equivalent access by direct assistance to passengers.

A train designed to carry more than 1 wheelchair must include at least 1 passing area for each accessible rail car.  The passing area must enable passengers travelling in mobility aids (conforming with the assumptions indicated in Part 40.1 of the Guidelines) to pass each other.

A boarding ramp must comply with AS/NZS3856.1 (1998) Clause 2.1.8 (b), (c), (f) and (g).

The slope of an external boarding ramp must not exceed:

(a)    1 in 14 for unassisted access (AS/NZS3856.1 (1998) Clause 2.1.8 (e) (including the notes)); and
(b)    1 in 8 for unassisted access where the ramp length is less than 1520 mm (AS1428.2 (1992) Clause 8.4.2 (a) and AS1428.1 (2001) Figure ; and
(c)    1 in 4 for assisted access (AS/NZS3856.1 (1998) Clause 2.1.8 (e)).

Any signal for requesting the deployment of a boarding device must be located in an allocated space.
It must be possible for a passenger to notify the operator of a conveyance that he or she needs a boarding device to board or alight from a conveyance.

If a request signal device is used, it may be located on the conveyance or at the boarding point according to the dimensions given in AS1428.2 (1992) Clause 11.4, Call buttons.

The minimum allocated space for a single wheelchair or similar mobility aid is 800 mm by 1300 mm (AS1428.2 (1992) Clause 6.1, Clear floor or ground space for a stationary wheelchair).

(1)   At least 2 allocated spaces must be provided for each rail, tram or light rail car.

(2)   Up to 8 allocated spaces may be consolidated in one car of a set.

(3)   If different classes of travel are offered, allocated spaces must be provided in each class.

Doorways and doors must comply with AS1428.2 (1992) Clause 11 (except Clause 11.5.2).

Doorways must comply with AS1428.2 (1992) Clause 11.5.1, Clear opening of doorways.

Power assisted doors must not require passengers to grip or twist controls in order to operate opening devices. Operators may provide equivalent access to conveyances by opening manual doors for people with disabilities.

Toilets

If toilets are provided, there must be at least one unisex accessible toilet without airlock that complies with AS1428.1 (2001) Clause 10, Sanitary facilities.

Accessible toilets must be in the same location as other toilets.

If toilets are provided, there must be at least one unisex accessible toilet without airlock available to passengers using wheelchairs or mobility aids.

An accessible toilet must:
(a)    comply with the requirements set out in this section; and
(b)    allow passengers in wheelchairs or mobility aids to enter, position their aids and exit.

(2)   The minimum dimension from the centre line of the pan to the near side wall must be 450 mm (AS1428.1 (2001) Figure 22).

(3)   The minimum dimension from the centre line of the pan to the far side wall must be 1150 mm (AS1428.1 (2001) Figure 22).

(4)   The minimum dimension from the back wall to the front edge of the pan must be 800 mm (AS1428.1 (2001) Figure 22).

(5)   The toilet seat must be between 460 mm and 480 mm above the floor (AS1428.1 (2001) Figure 18).

(6)   Hand washing facilities must be provided either inside or outside the toilet (AS1428.1 (2001) Clause 10.2.1 (b), Water closets).

All that is pretty clear.  Let Ms Trad and Co. try and wriggle their way out of that and avoid their responsibilities to people with a disability.  And, if you think that you are not affected, stop and think that you could be hit by a bus tomorrow and put in a wheelchair, or suffer a stroke, or be involved in any other set of circumstances that brings you within the orbit of the Disability Discrimination Act and its binding standards.

As usual, Queensland will be working on a quick and dirty fix.

I strongly urge disability advocates to make an application to the Federal Minister to use his legislative powers to ban from importation to Australia a vehicle (train) that does not comply with Australian standards.  If he does, that should cause Ms Trad and Co. to take this seriously.

[ozbob]

I am certain that Inclusion Moves and others will take action if they perceive the NGR trains when finally introduced do not meet the legislative requirements of the DDA act or alternate arrangements (as permitted) are not satisfactory, they will take prompt and decisive action.

[ozbob]

Yes. Looks like it. 3 person crew per train ? ? https://t.co/zDEM4DoPMn

— Robert Dow (@Robert_Dow) May 20, 2017

^

@Robert_Dow Guard(in non typical guards compartment)driver,2 customer service(centre of train due to platform design providing disability assistance)

— Inclusion Moves (@InclusionMoves) May 20, 2017

@Robert_Dow 2 customer agents due to union safety concerns.4 total over 35 https://t.co/BTd9q9hbHB paying for poor designYears to fix it @TMRQld stalled

— Inclusion Moves (@InclusionMoves) May 20, 2017

Oh ... dear .....

 

[Stillwater]

  

Four crew per train!

Well it meets the provisions of the DDA Act:

Passengers in wheelchairs or mobility aids must be able to enter and exit a conveyance and position their aids in the allocated space.  If this is not practicable, operators must provide equivalent access by direct assistance.
If the design restrictions of a conveyance limit on board manoeuvring areas for wheelchairs and similar mobility aids, the operator of the conveyance must ensure equivalent access by direct assistance to passengers.

And you probably would need two people to haul on board a sophisticated motorised wheelchair with a person in it.  OH and S and all that.

Gee, only in Queensland hey.

Well, let Ms Trad confirm it.  Too much secrecy over NGR stuff-ups.

[achiruel]

What a massive flap up!

I realise the current Government did not specify/order NGR, but they must come up with a better solution than this!

I wonder how difficult/expensive it would be to redesign the remainder of the NGR sets with the guard accommodation returned to a central location?

[Arnz]

Oh dear.  It reminds me of the pre-Airport line days when the ICE used to do a Bowen Hills - Robina - Gympie North rotation in the afternoon. 

Due to the door height platforms on the Gold Coast line. QR's old Transit Officers had to man each doorway (anywhere between 5-10 TOs) before the interlocks on the ICE doors were installed during the brief time the ICEs operated that rotation.

[ozbob]

What a massive flap up!

I realise the current Government did not specify/order NGR, but they must come up with a better solution than this!

I wonder how difficult/expensive it would be to redesign the remainder of the NGR sets with the guard accommodation returned to a central location?

Yo agree.  This would be unsustainable labour costs (QR is already very expensive in this regard).

Stop, and modify the trains themselves so that guard is back at the centre.  Will cost, but a lot less than a crew of 4 for 35 years plus!

[ozbob]

The possibility of two CSO has been mentioned before ..

Couriermail 8 April 2017  Major flaw of new Queensland trains still not fixed

EXTRA staff would be placed on every train to fix a major design headache plaguing the Palaszczuk Government's troubled $4.4 billion New Generation Rollingstock project.

The Courier-Mail can reveal the Government is still yet to solve disability access problems created after it bowed to union pressure and ordered its new trains be retrofitted with dedicated guard spaces.

Transport Minister Jackie Trad confirmed a "new operating model" was needed for the train-building project, but was yet to decide on the "right model" and a range of options were being looked at.

Disability access had ­already been sighted as a key problem, holding up the trains hitting the tracks.

Emails released to The Courier-Mail under Right to Information reveal the operating model was under discussion last September.

It involved shifting from the current two staff per train (driver and guard) to three staff (driver, guard and customer service assistant).

The option would blow out the cost of crewing the new trains and eat into project ­savings.

It is understood another ­option would require every railway station to be manned.

The guards problem comes on top of design flaws involving windscreen visibility and braking.

Disability advocate Geoff Trappett will meet Ms Trad next week to discuss the access issue.

He said that Queensland Rail last year proposed hiring up to two customer service agents for each train, however, he has since called for the State Government to reconsider modifying the trains to save money.

The trains were first planned to be driver-operated only, but the Rail Tram & Bus Union successfully lobbied the incoming Palaszczuk Government to secure guard jobs by giving them a dedicated cabin.

It agreed to retrofit the cabins in a move estimated to have cost up to $50,000 a train.

But the configuration of the trains shunted guards to the back, putting them out of reach of disability access points and creating the disability access dilemma.

It is the latest debacle to hit the state's rail network and comes amid criticism of a new Easter timetable, cutting services to every hour in Brisbane and two-hourly for the Sunshine Coast. Passengers who miss bus or rail connecting ­services face even longer commutes as a result.

Time the Government came clean and actually detailed the issues and the proposed solutions ...

[ozbob]

Wheelchair accessibility still not fixed on troubled NGR trains #qldpol: https://t.co/SYOfstjq8o via @YouTube

— David Marler (@Qldaah) May 20, 2017

[ozbob]

[Stillwater]

Some questions to put to Ms Trad:

Recently the LNP accused you of having to resort to 'secret taxes' to fund the Cross River Rail project.  Can your office please calculate the 'hidden tax' the LNP imposed on the people of Queensland when it and the then Minister, Mr Scott Emerson, signed off on the design specifications for NGR trains without adequate provision for a guard's cab or for people with a disability to gain easy access to the trains and to manoeuvre on board in access corridors, vestibules and toilet spaces according to the provisions of the DDA?

The 'hidden tax' for the next 35 years should include the cost of any modifications to reinstate a central-position guards compartment and the wages of an additional two staff required to act as 'customer liaison officers' to assist people with a disability while the trains are in operational service and over the life of the NRG train sets.

What is the total number of additional crew required to operate each NGR train with a four-person crew?
How long will it take to hire these extra crew members and will they be trained and in place by the start of the Commonwealth Games?

Will this four-person crew arrangement apply only to the 15 trains currently in Queensland or to the entire 75-train NGR fleet?  Or will there be modifications to the remaining 60 train sets yet to be delivered in order to correct this situation ?  What is the estimated extra cost of those modifications for Bombardier, the Queensland Government and the taxpayers of this state?

Compared with the operational and running costs of an average suburban train on the QR passenger network, can you express as a percentage the additional operating costs of NGR trains with four crew, instead of the normal two.  For example, is this additional cost an extra 20 per cent, or some other figure?  What is that figure, expressed as a percentage?

What is the figure when the operating costs of these trains are compared with the benchmark figure for the average train operating costs across other Australian jurisdictions that provide PT train services?

Will the extra two staff have additional duties to perform apart from assisting people with a disability, such as checking tickets/go-cards or cleaning the trains.  Where will they be employed within the QR/TransLink structure?

Will there be a reduction in the number of roving security personnel, or ticket inspectors to accommodate four-person crews on NGR trains?  What powers will the NGR customer liaison officers have?

What liaison has gone on with the unions regarding this move and does the union approve of this solution? 

Will the employment of an additional two staff on NCR trains mean that there will be staff cutbacks in other areas, such as reduction of station staff on the network, or curtailment of work hours for existing employees?

Can you also give a guarantee that the additional cost of operating four-person crews on NGR trains won't result in a scaling back of the rollout of new infrastructure and line expansion, such as extension of the Springfield Line to Redbank Plans, or the duplication of the SCL?

What happens if one person within a four-person NGR crew cannot turn up for work due to sickness or some other legitimate reason?  Will the train be delayed/cancelled for 'operational reasons'?  Or will there be sufficient relief crew to plug the staffing gaps?

With the government now deciding that there will be four-person crews for NGR trains, will Bombardier be paid for the 15 trains delivered so far and will the delivery of the rest of the NGR trains resume?

Has this sad episode caused your government to reconsider the manufacture of future new trains overseas and can we see a resumption of local manufacture of future train sets?

What administrative procedures do you have in place to retrospectively identify chain of command and other oversight issues, and by whom, to uncover any incompetence or political interference in the NGR design and ordering process?

Will you now change the situation where TMR staff are involved in these matters, with QR kept at arm's length?  Does this sorry situation require that there be a restructure of TMR/TransLink and the formation of a Queensland Public Transport Commission similar to the body that administers Western Australia's PT?

Will you refer the NGR design, order and administration arrangements to the Auditor-General for his scrutiny?

When seeking federal funding for Queensland for PT infrastructure, will you now argue a 'special case' for this state, requiring greater levels of funding, to cover the additional costs that now will be incurred?

What is the effect of the additional crewing costs for NGR trains operating through the CRR tunnel and the likely modifications to the NGR trains on the incomplete Business Case for the $5.4b CRR project and how will the BCR be impacted?  Will the BCR drop below 1:1? 

[#Metro]

Maybe the trains already built should be sold to Perth where they have DOO at a discount. Say 80% of purchase price.

DOO design is a non-issue in Perth. Recover what you can out of the $$.

Renegotiate the contract design for a train that is functional on the QR network for the remainder on order that have not been built yet.

It will cost money, but every option costs money at the moment and it will be a circuit breaker.

Extra Staff Cost Estimate

+2 staff x $100 000 salary / pa x 35 years x 75 trains = $525 million additional cost. (Ballpark, not inflation adjusted. Does not include train modification costs)

[ozbob]

Hopefully the fact that they have stopped importing trains does suggest that the remaining 60 on this order will have design modifications.

The 15 in country would not be really useful for WA as they do not have the specific maintenance facilities for them, and I recall there are some differences in the two loading gauges (minor could be got around though).

What is necessary is a clear articulation of what the issues really are and the actions being taken to resolve them.

Now getting to 16 months since the first train arrived and still no definite start date for revenue service.

When the hopefully modified trains arrive and in service then perhaps the first 15 could be withdrawn and modified locally under a sub contract with Downer at Maryborough or even transported to Bombardier in Victoria for modifications.

[#Metro]

There's no harm in asking. Perth gets cheap brand new trains, Brisbane gets most of the money back and the loss is minimised.

Perth needs new trains for the Forrestfield airport link and extensions they are doing.

Maybe QLD could ship one over for testing. It is worth a try.

Bombardier also manages the Perth train order. So it could be expedited. Take the trains to Maryborough for modification, ship to PTA WA. WA buys trains from QLD already.

http://www.bombardier.com/en/media/newsList/details.bt-20160622-bombardier-joint-venture-awarded-contract-extension-.bombardiercom.html


Bombardier Joint Venture Awarded Contract Extension for 10 Commuter Trains and Maintenance Services in Perth, Australia

June 23, 2016 Melbourne
Transportation,  Press Release

B Series Electric Multiple Unit in Perth
B Series Electric Multiple Unit in Perth

Low Resolution (121 KB)High Resolution (1 MB)
Bombardier to supply and maintain 10 B Series Electric Multiple Unit trains in joint venture with Downer EDI for Western Australia's Public Transport Authority (PTA)

New trains will meet the rising public demand for commuter rail services and support the Forrestfield Airport line extension, due to open in 2020

Vehicles to be assembled at Downer's Maryborough site in Queensland with electrical pre-assembly works by Bombardier in Victoria.

[ozbob]

Perth will not want them. They are sticking to the Bs which is sensible for them.

Queensland is stuck with NGRs.   In time I am sure they will work out.  Might help if they get some switched on folk in BigWilly to take over from the present bumble fumblers.

[#Metro]

What are the main differences between the B series and the NGR trains we have ordered?

The entire transport portfolio is just one big steaming catastrophe at the moment.

[ozbob]

B series > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transperth_B-series_train
(essentially the same as our 260s )

NGR are based on Adelaide Metro A-City Class 4000 with NGR modifications.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Generation_Rollingstock

NGR trains need a purpose built maintenance facility hence Wulkuraka. They have special gear to test and fault find for the NGRs.

[mufreight]

The sad fact is that the NGR trains even with additional staff for Disability access are non compliant.
It is physically impossible in their present configuration to enable disability access as required under the act.
The first deficiency is that it is not possible with a standard size wheelchair to access the toilet module and turn around to be able to exit the module
The second problem is that there is insufficient room inside the module to transfer from a wheelchair on to or off the toilet.
The third problem is that there is insufficient space between the outer wall of the toilet and the gangway between the carriage to enable a standard wheelchair to move between carriage 3 and carriage 4, this is a potential safety risk.
These failures are another of the growing list of rail rails largely due to the TMR having control of project lacking expertise in rail.
The problems with the NGR trains can be readily rectified by moving the toilet module away from the end wall of the carriage which would clear the gangway between carriages.
Rebuilding the toilet module making it both deeper and wider which would provide more internal room to manoeuvre a wheelchair inside the module.
These are not major changes and can be readily made during the construction of the remaining trains prior to their shipping to this country, the 15 trains that are already here could no doubt be modified here if not at the Bombardier facility at Wulkuraka  then at the Downer plant at Maryborough.
It would be political suicide if the Minister and her spin merchants do nothing to make these trains compliant and on placing them into service find that they have to withdraw them from service because of legal action brought about by one of the disability groups due to their noncompliance.

[Stillwater]

^ That's the threat that should be made to the Minister.  She plays rough-house all the time!

Put a train into service that doesn't meet the standards and we will see you in court.

The Minister's likely reaction?  Issue a media release, most likely: "Thousands of people will miss out on getting to the Commonwealth Games event because of a maverick group of people with a disability who have forced QR to take brand new trans off the network."

That's how this Minister's mind is wired.

[HappyTrainGuy]

There's no harm in asking. Perth gets cheap brand new trains, Brisbane gets most of the money back and the loss is minimised.

Woffle. I've explained this to you before. As I have mentioned before its an entirely new fleet. A fleet that perth has no provisions for. So what if they can get cheap trains. Its pointless if they have to build new provisions for the rollingstock along with acquiring additional spares. And just because you can link two photos of trains that look similar does not mean that they are similar. Anyway Perth has its own mtce facility for each type of rollingstock and no rollingstock can be transferred between the two due to each facility being set up for that particular model of fleet. The same as we would have here with the NGR depot only servicing the NGR rollingstock and the Mayne depot being responsible for the rest of the fleet. As it is now Mayne has just lots of spare parts just sitting there but as they aren't interchangeable across different fleets its only a small provision of spares for that particular series of train. Even basic mtce applies as Mayne staff won't be trained to work on them. The same as the guys at the new depot not having knowledge of working on the EMU/SMU/ICE trains.

Anyway there's no need for any major retro fitting.  Hopefully. Depending on how the trains are mechanically and electronically configured it would be easier to move some to Banyo, split them in half, a few electronic mods and then with the next shipment split those reconfigured sets onto the existing rollingstock here and re number them. So basically think of the current EMU60 how its actually 2x original EMU60 cars and 1x EMU05 car that forms the 3 carriages (you can tell by the flat panel surface vs the ribbed panels). 701 now would actually be 3 carriages of 701 and 3 carriages of 716 down the line. It will cost money to change the plans but it will be a quick way to sort out additional issues on the assembly line and not have to worry about massive refitting costs on top of the current delay costs.