Articles: Brisbane's public bus service is one of the best

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Brisbane's public bus service is one of the best value-for-money transport networks in the world, a leading expert says.

Brisbane bus system leads the world
COURTNEY TRENWITH
March 23, 2010 - 12:29PM

Brisbane's public bus service is one of the best value-for-money transport networks in the world, a leading expert says.

The integrated system leads the nation and is examined by other international cities looking to implement efficient bus services, Professor David Hensher, from the University of Sydney's Institute of Transport and Logistics Studies, told brisbanetimes.com.au.

"It's so well known around the world now, it's almost inherent," Prof Hensher said.

"It's shown to be delivering a high level of service for low cost.

"It's put Brisbane on the international map as an example in best practice in delivering public transport in terms of dollars outlaid."

Prof Hensher today released results of the first survey of Australian opinions of transport.

Queenslanders were among the most satisfied with roads and public transport systems in their area.

About one-fifth of Queenslanders surveyed in February said transport was better than last year - more than in any other state.

However, the same number thought it was worse, while more than half said it was the same.

The survey of 197 Queenslanders included more than 100 living in Brisbane and was conducted in late February, two weeks before the new cross-city tunnel, the Clem7, opened.

Prof Hensher said it was too early to tell how the new tollway, which connects Woolloongabba in the south and Bowen Hills in the north, bypassing the CBD, would impact on future survey results.

When questioned about their thoughts on Queensland transport in five years' time, 43 per cent believed it would be better, while 29 per cent were pessimistic.

"So there's still a fair bit of work to go, but you're starting off at a relatively good base, [with 21 per cent believing] in the last 12 months, the government has done a relatively good job, certainly better than other states," Prof Hensher said.

The survey will be repeated quarterly to produce the first national look at the public's changing views on transport.

"We think that politicians and others will want to monitor the evidence with great value because it will have clearly an influence on how well they're doing [on transport issues]," Prof Hensher said

[#Metro]

Numbers, I need to see numbers.
Performance and Efficiency statistics are not published. Why? Perth does it.
Conveniently left out an appraisal of the Rail network. Might look like a shocker with it included... 

[ozbob]

The blog at Brisbanetimes already has significant feedback, not many agree with the Sydney assessment ...

Click -->  here!

[Jon Bryant]

It may well be efficient (need to see they numbrs as well) but until our buses, trains, ferries, bikeways and footpaths are moving over 60% of all trips we are just providing a social service not a transit service.  Lets start to set sustainable targets for active and public transport regionally, locally and for each development approval.  They do it for traffic and car parking but just make an assumption for public transport. The assumption is usually that PT will bever be over 15% and further there is no assessment to see if the existing public transport services can even cater for the growth.  They just highlight that this is the responsibility of the Local and State Governments.  Talk about failing to plan...ok off topic now.!!!

[ozbob]

Minister for Transport
The Honourable Rachel Nolan
23/03/2010

Brisbane bus system leads the world: academic

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan today welcomed comments made by a leading academic that Brisbane's bus system is one of the best value-for-money transport networks in the world.

Professor David Hensher from the University of Sydney's Institute of Transport and Logistics Studies said Brisbane's integrated system leads the nation.

"It's so well known around the world now, it's almost inherent. It's put Brisbane on the international map as an example in best practice in delivering public transport in terms of dollars laid." (Professor Hensher - brisbanetimes.com.au 23 March 2010).

The comments were made in relation to a survey published by the university today that shows a higher percentage of Queenslanders think public transport across Queensland has improved over the past year - more than any other Australian state.

Ms Nolan said the Bligh Government has been working around the clock to deliver more seats and better services for commuters.

Last month an additional 385 services providing an extra 20,000 seats per week were added to the Brisbane network.

An additional 365 services per week running through the Clem 7 Tunnel started yesterday to provide another 18,000 seats per week.

"We're well on the way to meeting our election commitment of providing an additional 301,000 seats per week on the transport network this year," Ms Nolan said.

"And we're investing $7 billion in new infrastructure this year to improve public transport and congestion on our roads.

"Before Labor was elected there wasn't a single kilometre of busway in South East Queensland.

"Today there is more than 24kms of busway, including the $366 million Eastern Busway (Eleanor Schonnel Bridge to SE Busway and the $198 million Northern Busway (Royal Children's Hospital to Windsor.

"Work is currently underway on the next stage of the Northern Busway from Windsor to Kedron and the Eastern Busway from the South East Busway at Buranda to Main Avenue, Coorparoo.

"In the face of rapid growth we're getting better and will continue to strive for improved transport services across the state."

==============================================================

[ozbob]

From the Brisbane mX 23rd March 2010 page 1

Worse ride to come

Survey reveals transport gloom

A quarter of Queenslanders think public transport will get worse before it gets better.

The inaugural ITLS-Interfleet Transport Opinion Survey, released by the University of Sydney this morning,
found 26 per cent of Queenslanders were predicting public transport to be worse in a year ago.

While more than  half of Queensland respondents though public transport improvements had stalled over the
past year, a fifth thought things were better now than a year ago.

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan said: "A higher percentage of Queenslanders think public transport across
Queensland has improved over the past year - more than any other Australian state."

She promised things would improve for public transport users this year, saying an  extra 301,000 seats a week will be provided across the network by the end of this year.

Robert Dow from commuter advocacy group Rail Back On Track said it was the wait for these additional services and a lack of frequency that was leaving commuters frustrated.

The survey also found 45 per cent of Queenslanders would be in favour of the private sector becoming more involved in the provision of public transport.

[#Metro]

This "Brisbane's public bus service is one of the best" sounds like the "New World City" type marketing puffery being trotted out.
Our busways are excellent. Out railways are not. Ripping up trams was a bad, bad idea.

Would it also be true to say "Melbourne's public tram service is one of the best"
or "Sydney's trains is one of the best" (they have an excellent system
or "Perth's public transport system overall is one of the best".

I think we need to take a more holistic view.
If a service is really good, lots of people will use it.
Overall peak and daily mode share is one thing that should be looked at, as it is comparable across cities and modes.

[ozbob]

One must ask why the media is allowing the Government to get away with the notion of 301,000 seats this year, when in fact the commitment was by July this year?

http://statements.cabinet.qld.gov.au/MMS/StatementDisplaySingle.aspx?id=66877

Minister for Transport
The Honourable Rachel Nolan

Thursday, October 15, 2009

Paperless public transport a smarter way to go

The future of public transport in SEQ is paperless, according to the State Government's five-year fares and products strategy announced today.

The strategy, announced today by Acting Premier Paul Lucas and Minister for Transport Rachel Nolan, would see all paper tickets replaced by the go card by the end of 2010.

"In just over 18 months since the roll out began, we've issued almost 450,000 go cards, had more than $120 million loaded on to them and seen 50 million trips taken using the new system," Mr Lucas said.

"And now we want to move to the next step.

"Smart cards mean faster boarding times, better on-time performance and more data to tailor the rollout of new services where they're needed.

"Using a go card cuts individual boarding time from around 11 seconds to just three and that translates to a time saving of up to seven minutes on an average bus service.

"More than 1.25 million weekly trips are now taken using go cards, which is about one-third of all trips taken on the TransLink network and more than half of all trips taken during the morning and afternoon peak periods.

"But we want to make sure everyone has every opportunity to get a go card and experience how easy it is to use."

Mr Lucas said the State Government would next year:

·issue 400,000 free go cards loaded with $10 credit upon registration to encourage take-up;

·immediately offer off-peak go card discounts of 10%, rising to 20% by 2012;

·double the retail network for go card purchases;

·massively expand the number of go card machines at major busway stations and transport interchanges;

·roll-out a Seniors Card that will double as a go card;

·introduce a limited-life go card suitable for occasional users and tourists available everywhere a go card can be purchased.

Mr Lucas said TransLink would implement a new fare structure from January next year, which offered substantial discounts on go card fares compared with paper tickets.

Paper tickets for a two-zone trip, taken by more than one-third of all passengers, will rise from $2.90 to $3.90 in January, while the rise in go card fares over the same journey would only be 38 cents - from $2.32 to $2.70.

"The new go card fare is the same fare paper ticket users were paying in July 2007," Mr Lucas said.

"This new fare structure is all about encouraging people to make the switch to go card."

Mr Lucas said the fare rise was the first since August 2008, when a CPI rise was added and a 20-35 per cent discount given to go card users.

Mr Lucas said extra funds would be used to help add more than 301,000 additional passenger capacity a week to the SEQ network by July next year.

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan said the paper ticket phase-out would include a range of product options such as new off-peak discounts.

"Any go card user who travels between 9am and 3.30pm or after 7pm will receive an automatic 10 per cent discount off the single go card fare. This discount will increase by five per cent each year up to a full 20 per cent off-peak discount in 2012," Ms Nolan said.

"The off-peak discount will also assist in spreading the peak by encouraging people to travel outside the busiest periods.

"We will certainly be communicating with passengers in general over the next 12 months but we will also target special groups such as seniors, tourists and parents to ensure their specific questions or needs have been considered.

Ms Nolan said the fare strategy also aimed to return the State Government's per-trip subsidy from 75 per cent back to 70 per cent within five years. To help reach that goal fares will increase 15% a year from 2011 to 2014 – or around 40 cents to 60 cents a year for a typical two-zone ticket.

"For every dollar that a passenger spends on a fare, taxpayers spend three in subsidy and that ratio needs to decrease rather than increase in the next five years," Ms Nolan said.

"The January fare increase will continue to see passengers paying cheaper fares than in Sydney and Melbourne.

"This government currently provides $1.2 billion in funding of public transport and that funding won't go backwards – extra money brought in through the fare box will directly fund new services.

"And we're continuing our massive expansion of the public transport network – already this year we've opened $564 million worth of busways and the rail line extension to Varsity Lakes on the Gold Coast is on track to open by the end of the year."

Ms Nolan said while there was never a good time to increase fares, taxpayers had an expectation that government would recover more than 25 per cent of the true cost of providing public transport.

"The actual cost of delivering public transport has increased dramatically in the past five years due but we've seen fares only increasing with CPI in that period," Ms Nolan said.

[Jon Bryant]

Because they have no concept of how many services that is from too many years celebrating the number of cars per lane congested and at a stand still.  Public transport is foreign territory.

[#Metro]

It was quietly extended by 6 months...

Don't worry. 99% of politicians tell the truth

- A politician....

[ozbob]

Article at Brisbanetimes updated ..

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Brisbane bus system leads the world

Brisbane bus system leads the world
COURTNEY TRENWITH
March 23, 2010 - 2:35PM

Brisbane's public bus service is one of the best value-for-money transport networks in the world, a leading expert says.

The integrated system leads the nation and is examined by other international cities looking to implement efficient bus services, Professor David Hensher, from the University of Sydney's Institute of Transport and Logistics Studies, told brisbanetimes.com.au.

"It's so well known around the world now, it's almost inherent," Prof Hensher said.

"It's shown to be delivering a high level of service for low cost.

"It's put Brisbane on the international map as an example in best practice in delivering public transport in terms of dollars outlaid."

Prof Hensher today released results of the first survey of Australian opinions of transport.

Queenslanders were among the most satisfied with roads and public transport systems in their area.

About one-fifth of Queenslanders surveyed in February said transport was better than last year - more than in any other state.

However, the same number thought it was worse, while more than half said it was the same.

The survey of 197 Queenslanders included more than 100 living in Brisbane and was conducted in late February, two weeks before the new cross-city tunnel, the Clem7, opened.

Prof Hensher said it was too early to tell how the new tollway, which connects Woolloongabba in the south and Bowen Hills in the north, bypassing the CBD, would impact on future survey results.

When questioned about their thoughts on Queensland transport in five years' time, 43 per cent believed it would be better, while 29 per cent were pessimistic.

"So there's still a fair bit of work to go, but you're starting off at a relatively good base, [with 21 per cent believing] in the last 12 months, the government has done a relatively good job, certainly better than other states," Prof Hensher said.

The survey will be repeated quarterly to produce the first national look at the public's changing views on transport.

"We think that politicians and others will want to monitor the evidence with great value because it will have clearly an influence on how well they're doing [on transport issues]," Prof Hensher said.

Public transport lobby group Rail Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said while Brisbane was "well on its way" to being a world leader, a lot more had to be done.

"Brisbane's bus network is very good, but a lot of things need to be addressed to make it truly world-class," he said.

"There needs to be more bus lanes and there needs to be something done with the Cultural Centre, which is a major bus-jam location."

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan today welcomed the comments, saying the State Government planned to ''continue to strive for improved transport services across the state.''

Last month an additional 385 services providing an extra 20,000 seats per week were added to the Brisbane network.

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

It's true: Brisbane bus service is the best

It's true: Brisbane bus service is the best
COURTNEY TRENWITH
March 24, 2010 - 3:05PM

A university professor has defended his claim Brisbane has one of the best bus systems in the world, but admits it has not solved all of the city's transport woes.

brisbanetimes.com.au readers reacted with disbelief yesterday after University of Sydney Professor David Hensher described the inner-city's integrated bus design as one of the top value-for-money transport networks in the world.

"It's put Brisbane on the international map as an example in best practice in delivering public transport in terms of dollars outlaid," Prof Hensher said.

Minister for Transport Rachael Nolan and Brisbane Lord Mayor Campbell Newman reacted quickly to the positive publicity.

However, readers said Professor Hensher was "dreaming" and described the Brisbane bus system as "over-priced and unbelievably unreliable".

They claimed buses were often so full they drove past stops and others were frequently late.

In an extended interview with brisbanetimes.com.au today, Professor Hensher said readers had missed his point.

He agreed residents outside the inner-city suffered traffic congestion and that they should have bus-only transit lanes.

"My comments were solely focused on the decision by the government in Queensland to progress with an integrated busway system [in the inner-city] as an alternative to light rail and heavy rail, purely from the point of view of value for money," Professor Hensher said.

"I was not talking at all about congestion on the road network per se or buses in mixed traffic."

Professor Hensher stood by his evaluation that the inner-city's dedicated bus lanes were cheaper to build and provided greater capacity than rail options.

He said construction costs were typically up to 20 times lower than rail, while annual operating costs were three times less.

"The secret to the success of the system is that [Brisbane has] actually developed a corridor which only buses can use and so it acts like a railway, giving high capacity, good connectivity and it's very visible and modern," Prof Hensher said.

"People come from all around the world now to look closely at the Brisbane system because it's so successful in terms of the amount of patronage growth, so it must be doing something right."

The system was so good it should be extended, he said.

"Given that [bus transit lanes are] so good value for money, the government could save itself a lot of money by not building heavy rail and actually extending [busways] into the suburbs," Professor Hensher said.

"The biggest challenge, though, is finding the land corridor to build it."

However, Griffith University urban planning expert Jago Dodson said rail was still a better option than busways, especially in Brisbane where infrastructure already existed.

Dr Dodson agreed busways were a cheaper form of public transport in cities without existing rail infrastructure.

However, an evaluation of Brisbane's busway network needed to take into account existing transport assets and systems.

Other cities with busways did not have rail options like Brisbane, he said.

"We have spent a lot of money building a brand new bus asset rather than using existing rail lines more efficiently," Dr Dodson said.

"For example, the [new] northern busway will be constructed parallel to one of the northern rail lines. We have got to ask whether duplicating public transport for capacity is an efficient use of public transport expenditure."

Professor Hensher said the sophistication of rail seemed more attractive but buses remained more cost effective.

"We should stop focusing on the love of the technology and focus on the key objective of improving accessibility for every dollar outlaid on public transport," he said.

[O_128]

these articles and press releases make me feel like I'm living in communist Russia.

[#Metro]

The Busway is great, there is no denying that.
But value for money? How did he calculate that? Where are his numbers?
Translink does not even publish this information.

[TrainGreg]

It is difficult to know if Brisbane's buses are better. There are certainly as crowded as those in Oslo (which have 3 doors to our 2).
This afternoon (as yesterday) students were left standing at UQ St Lucia as buses simply can't move the people to Indooroopilly around 4pm on the 428 and 427 routes: extra buses are needed.

Having lived in Brisbane for the last 59 years I was around where there were trams. True, the traffic improved when they went but only for a few years. Certainly the lines to Salisbury, Belmont, Mt Gravatt and Chermside at least should have been kept but the Bardon and Toowong lines travelled down narrow streets.  In Oslo trams have managed to survive despite attempts to close them down and they work some narrow streets in the inner city.
Oslo also has a 6 line metro which started in 1928! It and the neighbouring local authority area have about the same population as Brisbane but I think they may move more passengers. They have heavy rail (NSB), metro (T-Bane), trams and buses. They also have a cold climate with snow so tunnels make a lot of sense. They also have more road tunnels than Brisbane but I think that is also due to the weather.

The integrated ticket system in SEQ  is good (not perfect) and now most students at UQ use the go card so bus loading tends to be fast.
In fact, the best thing about Brisbane public transport is integrated tickets either go card or paper.
I am reasonably happy as a commuter (except for price increases) as there has been an increase in peak hour trains. Buses are and always will be unreliable as road traffic holds them up.
When diesel becomes scare, lets hope the Busways are converted to light rail as promised. However, with massive reserves of coal-seam gas (mainly natural gas = methane) we may have gas powered buses for some time. Yes, buses are flexible but even an artic can't carry a tramload.

[longboi]

Prof Hensher may be right that buses and busways are excellent value for money, but that is only true for trips under 10km. Any longer than that you spread too few people out over long distances and you also start to impact on passenger comfort - and comfort is a key factor in whether or not people use PT.

[#Metro]

Where are the numbers?

It appears that Hensher wrote an article in 2008 about this:

Road & Transport Research -December 2008 Paper 1     

Why is the Brisbane bus Rapid Transit System deemed a success?

Kate Golotta and David A Hensher

Refereed Paper: This paper has been critically reviewed by at least two recognised experts in the field.

Originally submitted: July 2008.

Abstract

The Brisbane Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) system is recognised as one of the most successful BRT systems delivering fast, comfortable, and cost-effective urban mobility through the provision of segregated right of-way infrastructure, rapid and frequent operations, and excellence in marketing and customer service. This paper takes a close look at the Brisbane system, in the context of the set of principles that define quality BRT, and contrasts it with the initial proposal for light rail transit (LRT).  On the high level strategic criteria of value for money, increased accessibility, connectivity and visibility, the Brisbane BRT passes with a gold medal.

Why is the Brisbane bus rapid transit system deemed a success

[Jon Bryant]

There is cost effectiveness and there is cast benefit analysis. US study www.vtpi.org/bus_rail.pdf shows that rail provides more value for dollar spent. 

[#Metro]

I think any generalisations are not a good idea for Brisbane.
For example:

Perth:

Ferries: $0.93 /passenger-kilometre
Buses: $0.63 / passenger-kilometre
Rail: $0.47 / passenger-kilometre

So rail is the best value, ferry is the worst. (But you can't run trains or buses on the water).

Perth does not have busways, we do and they carry quite a lot of people- I read somewhere Brisbane buses carry possibly more than QR, so it might be closer than one thinks....

http://www.pta.wa.gov.au/Portals/0/annualreports/2009/service-and-financial-achievements/index.html

[somebody]

Perth does not have busways, we do and they carry quite a lot of people- I read somewhere Brisbane buses carry possibly more than QR, so it might be closer than one thinks....

Look at Translink Tracker.  It shows that the most recent full year figures are 114m/year bus trips, 60m/year rail trips.  Ferry is around 8m/year.

Perth also runs a more frequent service which amortises the fixed costs over a greater number of passengers.  In sheer dollar terms, it is possible that this is more expensive for the government to provide.  CityRail has a similar cost/pax/km advantage over Sydney Buses, but in subsidy terms Sydney Buses is almost self funding, but CityRail is a drain. (OTOH 0.7c/pax/km bus subsidy vs >20c/pax/km CityRail subsidy).  The fares per km are much lower on CityRail.

[#Metro]

Is that from an IPART report?

[somebody]

Here's a link for the CityRail subsidy: http://archive.lee.greens.org.au/index.php/content/view/1284/58/
Here's a link that the farebox is 25% for CityRail: http://www.ipart.nsw.gov.au/files/CRAI%20report%20-%20CityRail%20Externalities%20-%206%20June%202008.PDF
Here's a link for Sydney Buses's cost recovery, but it seems I was incorrect when I said they get most of their costs back from the farebox: http://www.bcansw.com.au/Portals/15/PDF%20documents/IPART_bus-fares-07.pdf
I couldn't find a link which gave it in a cost/pax/km, which I'm sure I've read previously.

(Oops, I said >20c for CityRail, actually it's =20c.  I did say OTOH though. Sorry)

Going off the point a little, but here's some interesting tid bits:

2.29      The total subsidy to urban public transport (five capitals) is estimated at about $3.3 billion per year, being the difference between farebox revenue $1.6 billion and operating costs $4.9 billion.

Link: http://www.aph.gov.au/SENATE/committee/rrat_ctte/public_transport/report/c02.htm

And:

RailCorp requires a government subsidy of close to $1.8 billion a year, approximately 5% of the state budget and more than three times what it collects in fares.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CityRail

If those links are correct, then CityRail costs are nearly half of the entire Australian public transport system.  This doesn't really surprise me, they employ so many seat warmers.

Also:

Despite its high visible cost to Treasury, Cityrail has the lowest overall cost per passenger-km of any of the major modes in Sydney, estimated at approximately 47 cents per passenger-km.
Bus is the next lowest cost mode, at approximately 57c/passenger-km on a similar cost basis.
Rail cost recovery is lower than bus primarily because rail trips are much longer than bus trips on average, and per-km fares decline with trip distance. This gives rise to higher subsidies for rail per trip than for buses, which leads some commentators to claim rail is too expensive. In fact buses are more expensive overall than rail per passenger-km, and the advantage for rail would be even greater if buses fully covered the cost of their infrastructure as rail does.

from: http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/section?content=a909478649&fulltext=713240928

[#Metro]

I like Sydney trains: The double deck, the space, the coverage, the loop, the frequency is amazing.
All in all it makes it very easy to get around.

I can't say the same for Sydney buses. They are awful. Its almost the reverse of Brisbane.
We have bad trains, and good buses. Sydney has good trains and bad buses.

Something else interesting:

• Connex had annual rolling stock costs of
A$ 62 million p.a. which was 40% less
than CityRail at A$ 88 million p.a. (2006/7);

• Connex had crewing costs which were
some 17−29% less than CityRail;

• Connex's operating costs per station were
43% better than CityRail;

• Connex's overhead costs per employee
were less than half of CityRail's; and

• Connex's employees per service kilometre
(2006/7) were less than half of CityRail's.

http://www.ltaacademy.gov.sg/doc/J09Nov-p36Currie_RailFranchising.pdf

[cartoonbirdhaus]

I like Sydney trains: The double deck, the space, the coverage, the loop, the frequency is amazing.

Wow, I wouldn't have had any idea CityRail was run that more expensively! Double-deck trains have disadvantages: longer boarding times, and they're harder to police. The frequencies aren't too bad, no. It's good to see CityRail have restored half-decent frequencies to the Inner West and Eastern Suburbs lines, for instance. I daresay Perth punches above its weight rail-wise: modern trains with frequencies at least as good as those in Sydney, with the suburban system entirely segregated from freight and long-distance.

Regarding the Brisbane bus system, it's remarkable that quarter-hourly services run to far-flung suburban areas with no anchors to create much demand in the opposite direction. Look where the 130, 200 and 444 terminate, for instance! And frequencies along most of the busway system rival Sydney's rail loop. Until the cross river rail tunnel's built, more BUZ routes are the most sensible option.

[somebody]

I can't say the same for Sydney buses. They are awful. Its almost the reverse of Brisbane.
We have bad trains, and good buses. Sydney has good trains and bad buses.

This point is partly true.  While Sydney's buses are largely not as good as Brisbane, if you assume that their ticketing systems are the fault of others, and the lack of busways are also the fault of others, I say that they make nearly the best of what they are given.  I don't think you can say that at all about Brisbane's bus system.

One thing that Brisbane need to do better is a better rail timetable on the Beenleigh line with fast express trains from Altandi and Fruitgrove to encourage transfers and ease pressure on 13x, 14x and 15x buses.  This will be easier with the new rail tunnel.  This point also applies on the Ipswich and Caboolture lines and they don't need the tunnel to sort that one.

Sydney's trains cover the south side pretty well, but the north side is less well served: the northern beaches and the hills are bus territory.  Most of the eastern suburbs are too.

[#Metro]

One thing that Brisbane need to do better is a better rail timetable on the Beenleigh line with fast express trains from Altandi and Fruitgrove to encourage transfers and ease pressure on 13x, 14x and 15x buses.

We need some more branches. Melbourne has lots of branches as does Sydney. It has interconnetions further away.
We don't (except Tennyson).

I think they should just sink a rail line out near Algester.
A light rail line, a heavy rail spur or a busway/bus lanes.
There is huge demand out there.

[somebody]

I think they should just sink a rail line out near Algester.
A light rail line, a heavy rail spur or a busway/bus lanes.
There is huge demand out there.

One possibility would be to duplicate, electrify and DG the freight rail line.  We know what mufreight will say about this, but so long as a deal can be stitched up between freight and passenger I think it should work.  I would agree that a Sydney style absolute freight curfew in peak times would be unnacceptable.  A deal would need to be struck before construction starts, and have that deal binding forever (yes, I know an act of parliament could overrule such a deal).

As for branches, you could argue that Shorncliffe is a branch of the Caboolture line, and Springfield will definitely become a branch of the Ipswich line.  Other than Kippa-Ring, Algester and the Sunshine Coast (that list expanded twice) I'm not sure where another branch would go.  South/North from Ipswich?

[curator49]

The Uniform Gauge Railway (standard gauge) through Algester is already dual gauge and will eventually stretch as far as Bromelton (near Beaudesert) if it isn't aready there (I have a feeling it is). This work has been undertaken since the start of this calendar year (2010) in conjunction with the completion of replacing the remaining timber sleepers with concrete.

However, it is intended that this track will service a major new freight terminal and industrial area being built at Bromelton to alleviate Acacia Ridge. I doubt that there will be sufficient paths available for a suburban passenger service along with a number of other operational problems.

[longboi]

The Uniform Gauge Railway (standard gauge) through Algester is already dual gauge and will eventually stretch as far as Bromelton (near Beaudesert) if it isn't aready there (I have a feeling it is). This work has been undertaken since the start of this calendar year (2010) in conjunction with the completion of replacing the remaining timber sleepers with concrete.

However, it is intended that this track will service a major new freight terminal and industrial area being built at Bromelton to alleviate Acacia Ridge. I doubt that there will be sufficient paths available for a suburban passenger service along with a number of other operational problems.

Hence why somebody suggested it be duplicated and electrified 

[somebody]

However, it is intended that this track will service a major new freight terminal and industrial area being built at Bromelton to alleviate Acacia Ridge. I doubt that there will be sufficient paths available for a suburban passenger service along with a number of other operational problems.

Hence why somebody suggested it be duplicated and electrified 

Yes, exactly.  Thank you.  2 tracks have somewhat more than double the capacity of one track.

The Uniform Gauge Railway (standard gauge) through Algester is already dual gauge

Since when?  Last I heard they announced that they were going to dual gauge it.

[dwb]

You're missing the whole point about cost/pax km.
Passengers have to travel further with rail. So as a quantum, its more expensive.
We can't keep living in dormitory suburbs far away from where we work.

There exists reasonably good data indicating if the SEB was a railway, it wouldn't carry half as many passengers, mostly due to the catchment it effectively serves. And from a customer perspective the SEB does extremely well... I've sat behind the glass on focus groups and the people who live near and use the SEB have drastically far more positive views of the busway operation, management, comfort and safety than they do of rail in Brisbane.

[ozbob]

SEB have drastically far more positive views of the busway operation, management, comfort and safety than they do of rail in Brisbane.

Clearly they do because they use it.  Similar pro-rail view from rail commuters.  The endless bus vs. rail misses the basic point, use modes fit for purpose.

As you point out Dwb passenger kilometres on rail a much >> bus, no surprise there.  It is therefore difficult to direct cost comparisons.  In their optimum modes both are as good as it gets ..

[somebody]

I've sat behind the glass on focus groups and the people who live near and use the SEB have drastically far more positive views of the busway operation, management, comfort and safety than they do of rail in Brisbane.

Couldn't that be partly because the rail has such awful frequency though?  Even the Corinda stretch drops back to half hourly after about 7pm weekdays and on weekends, and also has hour gaps Sun-Thu.  Maybe the City-Northgate stretch mightn't be so bad.

I don't think I'm missing any point.  If you think that, maybe you could explain.

[dwb]

Clearly they do because they use it.  Similar pro-rail view from rail commuters.

My point was that in some locations people could use either service but they choose busway for the reasons I said.... for example someone might have lived at Buranda all their life and never gotten the train but they now use SEB daily, despite the two stations being next to each other.

I fully agree with the point that modal choice should be determined on a values basis... rather than some love of one technology over another.

[ozbob]

Yes, I hear you.  It is a lot do with convenience and frequency IMHO (as somebody has suggested).  Also rail facilities are a lot older of course, and they don't compare to the new bus stations.  I suppose the day will come when the reverse is true ..

Out our way the opposite is the case.  The thought of a bus trip to town compared to rail doesn't sit well at all.  It is in part what they get used to I suppose.  I think the busways are great and I quite enjoy trips on them.  But for long haul I prefer rail.  

[Jon Bryant]

The key to getting people to take trips by public transport are:

• dedicated/grade separated routes - busway, bus lane, train line, light rail lines
• frequency - 30 mins off peak is no longer acceptable in a modern city nor is 10 or 15 mins in peak
• not providing road and car parking capacity for 80-90% of trips because we have artificially assumes public transport can nver be greater than 15%
• not providing the service 15 years after the road capacity is built

[#Metro]

Clearly they do because they use it.  Similar pro-rail view from rail commuters.  
The endless bus vs. rail misses the basic point, use modes fit for purpose.

As you point out Dwb passenger kilometres on rail a much >> bus, no surprise there.  It is therefore difficult to direct cost comparisons.  In their optimum modes both are as good as it gets ..

I disagree that 'it can't be compared'.
While it is true that different modes are suited to different tasks I think they do quite a similar job.
We could pose questions like "Would the Ferny Grove Line be better as a busway or a railway?" or the Shorncliffe Line?
And then ask why or why not...

We could look at suburbs in Brisbane that are both equal distance from the city.
We could look to see if they had busway or rail access or both and look at the effects.
In all other regards, if you pick enough suburbs, they should be no different from either...

We need to look at Sydney, which is the reverse of Brisbane.

Even for short Sydney trips I preferred rail.
It was fast, it was frequent and it went everywhere, stations were everywhere and there was space.

The Busway fills in gaps between the rail system. In other words, it is where they didn't put rail in to fill in the gaps.
So they are effectively doing the same kind of job, ignoring intercity transit (Ipswich-Brisbane, Brisbane-Caboolture, and Brisbane-Gold Coast). Even the busway station spacings are comparable.

Busway travels long distances such as CBD to Springwood and Logan, or CBD to Aspley. Heavy rail travels comparable distances and sometimes to the same locations. And it seems that busway costs just as much per kilometre as heavy rail infrastructure to construct.

The heavy rail system really needs fixing up... frequency, attractiveness, connectivity & transfers, reliability...

[curator49]

It is grossly unfair to accuse everyone that lives in any suburb (particularly those 20 km or more from the CBD) that they aren't living close to where they work and that they are therefore putting strains on the transport networks (whether by private car, bus/busway, pushbike/bikeway or railway). During their working lives people change their jobs for varying reasons (redundancy or seeking greater experiences, more pay and improvement for themselves and their family). They cannot up and sell their house and move to the other side of town because they live on the southside but now work on the northside. In another four or five years they might get a new job or be transferred back to the southside. Also individual family members in a household will most likely work in different areas. I work in Ipswich, my wife at Sunnybank and my live-in son works in the city. Until a few years ago one of my daughters (while living at home) was transferred for varying lengths of time to Wynnum, Browns Plains, Garden City, Carindale and Ipswich. Do you suggest she should have rented near each of these locations only to find she was asked to transfer elsewhere 2 or 3 months later?

Planned communities with job opportunities in the local area are all well and good but I would suggest that those residents will not always work in the area, not because they don't want to but the reasons for moving on can be many. Good public transport with a reasonably frequent service schedule is what is required across the city and, if possible, it should not all be CBD-centric. 

[Jon Bryant]

Curator49.  I think you make some very good points.  Whilst building more and more road space does encourage people to ravel further and further to work which becomes unsustainable if we built a transit system that only catered for local trips in today's society we will only end up encouraging car use.  Our transit system need to allow us to move quickly and directly around SEQ.  Our transit system  needs to look like a spider web across SEQ.  This will be a combination of heavy and light rail and local/feeder bus service.

[#Metro]

I disagree that 'it can't be compared'.
While it is true that different modes are suited to different tasks I think they do quite a similar job.
We could pose questions like "Would the Ferny Grove Line be better as a busway or a railway?" or the Shorncliffe Line?
And then ask why or why not... Smiley

Or to be the devil's advocate- if busway is so good, then should the Ferny Grove and Shorncliffe lines be disconnected, ripped up and converted? 

Insert Quote
It is grossly unfair to accuse everyone that lives in any suburb (particularly those 20 km or more from the CBD) that they aren't living close to where they work and that they are therefore putting strains on the transport networks (whether by private car, bus/busway, pushbike/bikeway or railway). etc...

This is quite true. The cheapest thing would be to double the size of the CBD and force everyone to live in an apartment because it is "cheaper". A similar thing is seen with the population cap proposals, dubbed "Fortress SEQ" where everyone gets locked out found that ~10 000 people/year would have to be evicted from SEQ for the next 40 years to stabilise the population. Again, not good.

On the other hand, it does cost a lot to do these things. Billions actually. Many people want to live closer to the CBD or even a CBD but this is hard as there is local opposition, reduced building heights, protests and petitions etc. The development on the Milton Tennis Courts is one case.

The difference between the two scenarios is force and choice.