Article: Gold Coasters want true express train

[ozbob]

From the Gold Coast Bulletin click here!

Gold Coasters want true express train

Gold Coasters want true express train

Matthew Killoran   |  March 2nd, 2010

COMMUTERS have called on the State Government to 'pull out all the stops' to shorten express train travel times from the Gold Coast to Brisbane.

The express journey from Varsity Lakes to Central Station has 14 stops and takes an hour and 20 minutes.

Trains running on the Gold Coast line stop at Beenleigh, Loganlea, Coopers Plains, Park Road and South Bank -- all stations outside our city.

From 5am-8am and 4pm-6pm, the Gold Coast service travels 'express' through the Loganlea, Coopers Plains and Park Road stations, but this does not affect the time it takes to reach the city.

Readers of goldcoast.com.au have suggested having express trains cutting out non-Gold Coast stops, leaving Ormeau and not stopping until reaching South Brisbane, to cut travel time.

Currumbin resident Amanda Budd catches the train to the city each day and said she would love a train that ran express from Ormeau to South Brisbane.

"There are enough people on the train to justify having an express from Ormeau, just from the fact it is a full train," she said.

A TransLink spokesman did not commit to looking at the possibility, saying 'the current timetable was designed to ensure Gold Coast line trains reach the Brisbane CBD as quickly as possible, while still ensuring an appropriate passenger load'.

Robert Dow, spokesman for transport pressure group Rail Back on Track, said a train which ran from Ormeau to South Brisbane with no stops in between could potentially cut up to 20 minutes from the journey.

He said the line, which passes through Park Road, where three lines converge, is at near capacity.

If the service went via Tennyson and Sherwood, it would allow for more trains without adding significantly to the journey.

"They could be called 'City Flyers'. You cut out all the (Logan and Brisbane) stations and you will cut 10, 15, 20 minutes from the journey," he said.

[O_128]

typical gold coasters they choose to live that far away yet demand a better service.

[Nightwriter]

typical gold coasters they choose to live that far away yet demand a better service.

The problem is:  it works.

[Fridge]

Well on the Sunshine Coast we just want to see a train every so often, rather than once in a blue moon.

[somebody]

Robert Dow, spokesman for transport pressure group Rail Back on Track, said a train which ran from Ormeau to South Brisbane with no stops in between could potentially cut up to 20 minutes from the journey.

Are you sure?  That's only missing South Bank, Park Rd, Coopers Plains, Loganlea and Beenleigh.  Even at 3 mins a station, that's only saving 15 minutes.  I doubt you would save 3 mins a station north of Beenleigh as speeds are lower.  Stops at South bank and Park Road are useful IMO for the interchange options this allows.

What I would argue is that if fat were trimmed off of the timetable, the services would be faster.  Also, an uprated IMU which powers every axle and a return to 140km/h top speed would be nice too.  The 2016 tunnel, if implemented would actually trim around 10 minutes from this journey in my estimation.  Anything which does something about the slow trip between Roma St and South Brisbane is to be encouraged.

[ozbob]

I actually said 10 to 15 minutes, as indicated elsewhere.  Yes, the interchange is useful  but the we are talking a couple of peak dedicated services express for Coast only.  I also said that market research and load studies would need to be undertaken to see if there would be a full load out of Ormeau, and cautioned about the lack of train paths.  Comment is editorialised in articles so that full context is not always clear.

[ButFli]

They admit that cutting out Loganlea, Coopers Plains and Park Road in peak doesn't save any time yet we are supposed to believe that cutting out Beenleigh and South Bank will save 20 minutes? Do trains stop at these stations for 10 minutes each?

[Arnz]

I can't really speak for loads out of Ormeau, but on most morning in South Bank, the inbound Gold Coast-City trains are no-where near crammed.  Even a few backward facing seats are available whilst there is usually only a handful of standees located near each door.

I fail to see how it is justified.

[#Metro]

Oh well.
Maybe satellite cities are not such a good thing after all. They are just so far and hard to get to, and extend services to.

We could put on something like EuroStar or some other ridiculously high speed service but it would be very expensive. Tilt train to Gold Coast???

[#Metro]

Maybe it needs a 3 tier timetable.
I doubt though this could be possible.
Does anyone have any info?

[Arnz]

We could put on something like EuroStar or some other ridiculously high speed service but it would be very expensive. Tilt train to Gold Coast???

About as much chance as the Maglev Bus to Caboolture 

[mufreight]

The question is it justified in the form that is proposed raises a number of points.
why remove Beenleigh from the stopping places, Beenleigh provides a transfer point for passengers to or from intermediate stations as does Park Road.
From an operating point of view the answer is a resounding NO, why should the residents of the Gold Coast who have chosen to live there be provided with a higher standard of service than those resident in Landsbrough, Rosewood, or Gatton.
Yes service frequencies can be improved for the coast and by spending mega millions the infrastructure can be built to enable these desirable improvements but in the overall scheme of things the additional capacity of the cross river ungerground link must be built first, on a system wide basis, the completion of the Springfield line, the construction of the Redcliffe/Kippa Ring line, the duplication from Beerburrum to Landsbrough and the electrification to Gatton all rate higher on the infrastructure need list.
Commuters from Redcliffe, Landsbrough, Springfield and Gatton are all equally deserving of rail commuter services as the Gold Coast white shoe brigade.

[somebody]

Exactly right mufreight.

I do wonder if their lobbying power can be channelled into getting the 2016 tunnel built, though.  That should speed up their service considerably due to avoiding some slow sections, and through shaving 1km or so off of the route.  Also, a more convenient city stop location for most people with the the Edward St station.

[#Metro]

Perhaps they expect the tilt train to be taken off the north section and used to go to the Gold Coast.
On the other hand, NSW has different trains for different terrain... The OSCAR trains can climb gradients of up to 3.3%, And Victoria has the Country VFT service

[somebody]

Perhaps they expect the tilt train to be taken off the north section and used to go to the Gold Coast.
On the other hand, NSW has different trains for different terrain... The OSCAR trains can climb gradients of up to 3.3%, And Victoria has the Country VFT service

Every CityRail train can climb those gradients, otherwise they wouldn't be able to get up the Blue Mountains, or up to the Harbour Bridge from Wynyard.

The problem with the ECRL is that it has both a steep and long gradient.

[#Metro]

Hmm. I think the Sydney trains are more powerful than the QR ones (correct me if I'm wrong).

Sydney actually has an excellent rail system, it makes our services look lacking in comparison. Double deck (does that mean higher capacity too?), massive doors,  their central is huge and you can park trains there as well as run them through the loop.

A lot of their lines also interconnect which is good if there is an issue blocking the line at one location.

So would you think extension to Samford is possible?- its bit hilly.
Even the back of Gold Coast is hilly too. And then there is Toowoomba (if it ever gets a passenger service- may be a while off!)

[somebody]

Hmm. I think the Sydney trains are more powerful than the QR ones (correct me if I'm wrong).

Sydney actually has an excellent rail system, it makes our services look lacking in comparison. Double deck (does that mean higher capacity too?), massive doors,  their central is huge and you can park trains there as well as run them through the loop.

A lot of their lines also interconnect which is good if there is an issue blocking the line at one location.

So would you think extension to Samford is possible?- its bit hilly.
Even the back of Gold Coast is hilly too. And then there is Toowoomba (if it ever gets a passenger service- may be a while off!)

An 8 motor EMU (a few have 6 motors) is about as powerful per tonne as an M set, which is their most powerful train.  But that doesn't mean that more power in an SMU/IMU wouldn't hurt!  An SMU, by my calculations, can maintain 60km/h up a 5% grade.  Try doing that, CityRail!  Why the authors of the Inner City Rail study got so worried about grades, I have no idea.

An 8 car CityRail train has about 1000 seats, and is considered full at about 130% seated load (less standing room).  I actually think the double deck was a mistake as it really means that dwell times are longer: they should have just increased frequency when they had the chance, but I would also think that 3 doors per side per car like Melbourne would be better for Brisbane too.  Perhaps larger doors in both cases.

CityRail's system is facing an imminent meltdown on some lines as they are running at capacity already and they have no ability to run any more services.  Main problem is the Western line, which gives up a handful of paths to the lower North line and the Blue Mountains line.

[#Metro]

An 8 motor EMU (a few have 6 motors) is about as powerful per tonne as an

What's our most powerful commuter trains? Are the newer ones more powerful as I can't find any more technical information on them (it is all about spin marketing + capacity, voltage used etc).

Sydney might be in meltdown, but I've always found their trains very fast, with lots of space and seats for people and never had to wait- actually I never bothered to look at a timetable, the next train was always a few minutes away... their hybrid metro-style train network is something I like and would be good to see if that could be done here with the ICRCS (if QR decides to up the frequency!)

An 8 car CityRail train has about 1000 seats, and is considered full at about 130% seated load (less standing room).  I actually think the double deck was a mistake as it really means that dwell times are longer: they should have just increased frequency when they had the chance, but I would also think that 3 doors per side per car like Melbourne would be better for Brisbane too.  Perhaps larger doors in both cases.

Why do you think it is a mistake? I don't understand how having a second deck slows them down...or affects headways...

[stephenk]

Another case of "everyone wants an express from their station to the detriment to everyone else" syndrome. Not stopping at Beenleigh would be plain stupid, as it is a location for passengers to change trains.

I suggest that if Gold Coast residents want a faster journey time into Brisbane, they should move closer to Brisbane.   

[somebody]

What's our most powerful commuter trains? Are the newer ones more powerful as I can't find any more technical information on them (it is all about spin marketing + capacity, voltage used etc).

Here's a good summary on CityTrain's fleet: http://citytrain.com.au/Images/CTM3202_CitytrainFleetPDF_1209_LR_tcm17-3380.pdf
For CityRail's fleet: http://www.cityrail.info/about/fleet/

Note that it doesn't say Sydney & Melbourne use 1.5kV DC electrification, Brisbane 25kV AC, Sydney 4'8.5" gauge, Melbourne 5'3" gauge, Brisbane 3'6" gauge.  Sydney use 4, 6 & 8 car trains (mostly , while Melbourne use mostly 6, I believe.

Why do you think it is a mistake? I don't understand how having a second deck slows them down...or affects headways...

Because funnelling more people through 2 doors takes longer than less people through 3 doors.  It also reduced frequency, in effect.  It's about dwell times at stations.


Sydney's trains seem to be general driven at a moderate pace, but Brisbane's have superior acceleration.  There's a lot more problems with speed restrictions on Brisbane's network, from what I can gather, no doubt in part due to the narrow gauge.  I'm not sure if high speed points are readily available for 3'6".

[#Metro]

No harm in looking...

Things to check roughly
1. Engineering feasability
    - Could the line be modified or should it be a seperate line with say 3 stations that act as portals.
      The normal QR train service would then be used for local trips as if the Gold Coast was a seperate-self contained city.
    - Does it have to be fast? How fast? Or would a tilt train do?
2. Financial feasability
    - how high does the fare have to be
    - will someone other than the government expose themselves to the risk should the scheme be risky (risk private money before public)

Idea will probably fail on both, but we should see if it does before we dismiss it without any attempt at showing that it truly does.

If Gold Coast residents want a faster Eurostar train service, then they should be willing to pay Eurostar Fares.
Would they?

$15-$20 dollars per day, one way?  (Remember taxi to Bris airport is $50 or so)
@ 250 km/hours this would bring the Gold Coast to within 30 minutes or so.


NB: Before anyone mentions the trainspotter fantasy file   remember we have a thread on this forum that is exploring VFT and super fast trains to Sydney, on lines that have low patronage,  huge distance and strong competition from cut price airlines. And we have Melbourne with fast trains to Bendigo etc.

[ButFli]

I can't really speak for loads out of Ormeau, but on most morning in South Bank, the inbound Gold Coast-City trains are no-where near crammed.  Even a few backward facing seats are available whilst there is usually only a handful of standees located near each door.

I fail to see how it is justified.

As soon as anyone has to stand on a Gold Coast train it gets called the "Bombay Express". Clearly Gold Coasters have never tried the Ipswich Line in the mornings.

[#Metro]

Ipswich line: What should it be called?  

Corinda/Richland services should continue to Brisbane Airport rather than have half of Airport services begin at Roma Street.

[#Metro]

He said the line, which passes through Park Road, where three lines converge, is at near capacity.

If the service went via Tennyson and Sherwood, it would allow for more trains without adding significantly to the journey.

How much spare capacity does the Ipswich line have? Could it handle an extra 4 trains per hour in both directions for example? Could the Tennyson line be triplicated or quadruplicated? Good idea/bad idea?

[stephenk]

Corinda/Richland services should continue to Brisbane Airport rather than have half of Airport services begin at Roma Street.

The entire main line (Ipswich/Richland-Caboolture/North Coast) operations would thus be governed around the Airport Line track slots, you would add extra conflicting moves, and cause line pairing issues.

Another idea that sounds good, but in reality would have issues (although it could have potential with a 2 tier Ipswich Line timetable).

[#Metro]

Conflict with which services?
How?

Non-cross city routes waste opportunities...

[david]

I suggest that if Gold Coast residents want a faster journey time into Brisbane, they should move closer to Brisbane.   

Best quote ever IMO.

I think the Gold Coast has had more than its fair share of improvements. New trains, new services, new rail tracks, new stations, etc. It's time attention was paid to the Caboolture and Ipswich lines, two of the most heavily patronised lines. I can understand Translink waiting for Corinda to Darra to finish, but isn't it time we had some community consultation regarding timetabling?

[longboi]

Conflict with which services?
How?

Airport services from Ipswich would have to make a cross over to the suburbans somewhere north of Bowen Hills as you can only get to the Airport spur from the down suburban. Whereas the ex-GC services are already on the correct track and don't need to make a conflicting move.

[somebody]

No harm in looking...

No idea what you are referring to here.

If Gold Coast residents want a faster Eurostar train service, then they should be willing to pay Eurostar Fares.

Great line!  In fact they already have the best express service in all of SEQ, I can't believe their temerity in asking for more.

As soon as anyone has to stand on a Gold Coast train it gets called the "Bombay Express". Clearly Gold Coasters have never tried the Ipswich Line in the mornings.

Maybe the Bombay slogger?

How much spare capacity does the Ipswich line have? Could it handle an extra 4 trains per hour in both directions for example? Could the Tennyson line be triplicated or quadruplicated? Good idea/bad idea?

Ipswich line has plenty of spare capacity at present.  Fast forward 15 years, the Springfield line should be getting good patronage and all the capacity would be used up..  Bad idea to quad the Tennyson loop.

[Nightwriter]

I can't really speak for loads out of Ormeau, but on most morning in South Bank, the inbound Gold Coast-City trains are no-where near crammed.  Even a few backward facing seats are available whilst there is usually only a handful of standees located near each door.

I fail to see how it is justified.

As soon as anyone has to stand on a Gold Coast train it gets called the "Bombay Express". Clearly Gold Coasters have never tried the Ipswich Line in the mornings.

I agree with this whole heartedly.

Prior to my changing times at work, I would notice the Gold Coast train pulling into Roma Street in the mornings.  While the Ipswich train had many people standing, the Gold Coast train had seats to spare.

Sorry, but the 'Bombay Express' sob story doesn't work with me anymore!

[#Metro]

Ipswich line has plenty of spare capacity at present.  Fast forward 15 years, the Springfield line should be getting good patronage and all the capacity would be used up..  Bad idea to quad the Tennyson loop.

So if this is the case, why can't we increase the amount of trains running on the Beenleigh/Gold Coast line and have them go via Tennyson to the Ipswich line where there is plenty of capacity...

[somebody]

So if this is the case, why can't we increase the amount of trains running on the Beenleigh/Gold Coast line and have them go via Tennyson to the Ipswich line where there is plenty of capacity...

Who said we can't?

It's just that it would be significantly slower to go that way.  Why not just squeeze the capacity over the Merivale Bridge further?  The main impediment to this is returning to Mayne via Roma St #7.

Also, ignoring the passenger convenience aspect, it would require a larger fleet and greater crewing costs to go via a slower route.

[ozbob]

When there are problems, trains are often diverted through Tennyson and on to Sherwood, The journey is a few minutes longer (3 to 5) but a lot more train paths.

I have no doubt that prior to some resolution of Cross River Rail capacity increase there will be routine runs via Tennyson.  It makes sense that some express services would be the ones to run that way and if it was the only way to put a few more trains into the peak it would be done.  I know it has been considered and is looked at as a future option when needed.

[somebody]

When there are problems, trains are often diverted through Tennyson and on to Sherwood, The journey is a few minutes longer (3 to 5) but a lot more train paths.

Hmm, I expected a much slower journey than that.  I suppose it's avoiding the awfully slow South Brisbane-Roma St section.

But doing it that way also has the problem of not serving South Brisbane and South Bank, at which workers for places like Woolloongabba can change.

Then there's the operational problems from doing this.  I would presume that these trains would need to run express.  If one assumes that the Richlands trains will stop all stations (logical), then they would need to cross over on to the mains fairly quickly to avoid chasing down the train in front.  So a nasty conflicting move, which I think may need to be done in a single step (i.e. Tennyson loop, across 3 tracks and onto the fourth).

EDIT: By the way, I think you are likely to be correct that it will probably happen some day.  But it's not a good thing, or even satisfactory in my opinion.

[#Metro]

But doing it that way also has the problem of not serving South Brisbane and South Bank, at which workers for places like Woolloongabba can change.

True, but if it was the choice between slow(er) train or no train...

There is the busway link from Roma St...

[stephenk]

There are approx 6 free inbound track slots from the on the mains (13/19), and 4 on the suburbans in the am peak (19/23) according the max capacity figures in the ICRCS. Both of these figures are optimistic. The Ipswich Line is likely to get a reasonable patronage increase when Richlands opens. Running Gold Coast services via Tennyson would add conflicting moves, and miss South Bank/Brisbane. So overall, it's not really worth running Gold Coast services via Tennyson.

[mufreight]

Sorry Translink but first there is more than sufficent capacity on the Corinda - Roma Street section to operate additional services both from Richlands, Ipswich and the Gold Coast, the limitation is the north leg of the triangle from the Tennyson loop line to the mains at Sherwood.
As for running Coast services via Tennyson then down the mains into the CBD with stops at Sherwood, Indoorpilly and Toowong, direct airport services can be operated from these stations, Ipswich line destination passengers can transfer at Sherwood and passengers for the University at St Lucia would have more direct access.
The paths vacated by the rerouting of these basicly express services via Tennyson and out of the Yeerongpilly corridor and the Park Road - Roma Street bottleneck thewn become avaliable for the provision of additional services for the Clevland line and Beenleigh.
The time penalty by operating via Tennyson with stops at Sherwood, Indooroopilly and Toowong is nine minutes, without these stops a maximum of six minutes, a small price to pay for ensuring the reliability of service and being able to provide additional services.

[#Metro]

As for running Coast services via Tennyson then down the mains into the CBD with stops at Sherwood, Indoorpilly and Toowong, direct airport services can be operated from these stations, Ipswich line destination passengers can transfer at Sherwood and passengers for the University at St Lucia would have more direct access.

You could simply cut out the stops at Coopers Plains/Loganlea etc.
It would be great to have a Brisbane Airport train originating on the Ipswich line.

Maybe Richlands to Caboolture and Ipswich to Brisbane Airport

[somebody]

Sorry Translink but first there is more than sufficent capacity on the Corinda - Roma Street section to operate additional services both from Richlands, Ipswich and the Gold Coast,

Yes, but why would you want to run the Coasties via Tennyson while there's still capacity over the Merivale Bridge?  While I can see making the Coasties serve Coopers Plains with a Coopers Plains train to the Tennyson loop, I'm not sure of the demand for that one.

[johnnigh]

No one has mentioned the obvious problem: Gold Coasters have no local jobs. The Gold Coast is an employment-free zone, no major companies have their worker-bee hives there. No major govt departments are based there. It's just a haven for small business, the building trades and other direct service industries. This also means employment is unstable, subject to the ups and downs of the economic cycle. So anyone who chooses to live there (probably for cost reasons) will try to find stable employment, mainly up in Brisbane.

The Gold Coast City Council has been derelict in not making effective efforts to induce major employers to invest anywhere in their city. State govts over the past 40 years have also neglected just about everything about the growth of the city, which is why it is a cancerous spread of housing without shape and almost impossible to effectively serve with public transport. That's why it's one of the most car dependent cities in the world.

Incidentally, the Sunshine Coast is no better. Ipswich is much better.

Go Ipswich