15 min off peak rail, where can it be done

[skippy]

Does anyone know where can 15 min two way frequencies be reliably implemented for the suburban lines, say weekdays between 9am and 3pm without any changes to infrastructure? ie. could be done immediately assuming rollingstock and crew are available. Please correct me where I am wrong below.

Ferny Grove Line - Assume the short section of single track Keperra - FG still permits 15 mins each way
Shorncliffe Line - as per FG line above
Doomben Line - Not possible, single track precludes 15 mins reliably
Caboolture Line - Quad and triple to Lawnton permits 15 mins to Petrie each way + existing pass and freight
Ipswich Line - 15 mins to Corinda already, should be extended to Darra with upgrade end of this year. Beyond Darra interference with Coal trains?
Cleveland - is 15 min each way possible to Manly (end of double track) or not possible due to flat junction at Park Road
Beenleigh - IIRC, not currently possible due to disparity with running time of GC services
 
We may have more success lobbying government targetting additional off peak services if reliable train paths are available with current infrastrucuture.

[#Metro]

They seem to accomplish the feat during peak hour.
Though there may be additional constraints which prevent this in the off peak (I will leave it to others to detail).

Connecting services are a big issue IMHO, which is why I've floated a pulse timetable idea to work with what we have until we get more services.

I think it was worked out in another train for 1 hour costs somewhere around $3000, the major cost being the supply of electricity. Perth seems to be able to do it...

[mufreight]

Services on a 15 minute frequency could be implemented on the Ipswich - Caboolture line with the stroke of a pen.
There are at the present time two obstacles, Thanslink is apparently unwilling to fund additional services and train crews.
Rollingstock poses no real problem as the existing off peak six car services could be operated with three car sets, as the loadings increase the hourly services could be built up to six car sets and then alternate services could become six car sets.
Additional train crews can be employed and trained in a relatively short time by taking staff currently employed as guards and training them as drivers and employing and training the additional staff required as guards, but this requires funding which like the additional services has to be approved by Translink who it is understood still have not finalised the operating funding agreement for the current financial year of which 8 months has already passed, little hope there of additional operational staff and services being approved while Translink expands its bureaucratic non operational empire with jobs for mates.

[somebody]

Park Rd junction would not prevent 15 minute frequency to Manly & Rocklea (and probably not to Kuraby, although that is much tighter)
Lack of triplication north of Lawnton would not prevent 15 minute frequency to Caboolture
Lack of trains would not require 3 car trains: They run many more services in peak with 6 car trains
15 minute frequency to Ipswich would make it harder for freight, but not impossible by any stretch

The only real obstacles are crews, funding, outer Cleveland, outer Beenleigh, Gold Coast and Doomben.

[stephenk]

They seem to accomplish the feat during peak hour.

Well actually, in many cases they don't. There are plenty of peak direction services, but often to the detriment of reverse-peak services - e.g. 50min gap between reverse am peak Gold Coast services, and 30min gap between reverse am peak Beenleigh Line services.

As has been mentioned before, reverse-peak and off-peak 15min Kuraby and/or Gold Coast services are not possible with the current infrastructure unless Gold Coast services are slowed down by 4 mins.

May I suggest reading the timetables before making assumptions about them?

[skippy]

Park Rd junction would not prevent 15 minute frequency to Manly & Rocklea (and probably not to Kuraby, although that is much tighter)
Lack of triplication north of Lawnton would not prevent 15 minute frequency to Caboolture
Lack of trains would not require 3 car trains: They run many more services in peak with 6 car trains
15 minute frequency to Ipswich would make it harder for freight, but not impossible by any stretch

The only real obstacles are crews, funding, outer Cleveland, outer Beenleigh, Gold Coast and Doomben.

Many thanks Somebody. If we assume the worst and freight efficiency on the double track beyond Petrie and Darra is in slight doubt also Beenleigh / GC clashes then I would still be happy with 15 min each way 9am to 3pm weekdays to
- Darra
- Petrie
- Ferny Grove
- Manly


followed after Cross River Tunnels by 15 mins weekday daytime frequency
- Shorncliffe
- Kuraby
   
followed by weekend evenings say between 6pm to 9pm, finally weekends

[mufreight]

A 15 minute frequency is possible between Corinda and Ipswich without any major effect on freight operations, there have been as many as four freight services and a test train operated through this section between the existing 30 minute frequency passenger services, the logic of this degree of bunching escapes me as these services, coal and grain were all obviously destined to points west of Toowoomba and could not operate on such close headways either through the single line sections through the Little Liverpool Range and the Toowoomba range sections but they do prove that the capacity is there to operate a freight service between passenger services operating on a 15 minute frequency.
To further emphasise this point westbound empty coal services are frequently operated through the Corinda - Ipswich section between passenger services in the evening peak.

[somebody]

As has been mentioned before, reverse-peak and off-peak 15min Kuraby and/or Gold Coast services are not possible with the current infrastructure unless Gold Coast services are slowed down by 4 mins.

What if there was a crossover at Sunnybank or near to allow the Kuraby terminators to use the third track for the Sunnybank-Kuraby stretch?

[#Metro]

If a pulse timetable was used in the off peak, with trains converging on Roma Street twice an hour for say a 6-10 minute layover, there would be at least a 30 minute gap between passenger trains (15 minutes gap for higher frequency lines like Roma St-Corinda, or GoldCoast Beenleigh) on any line for which freight or additional services could use.

Ok this is a very rough estimate, it is probably more complicated than this, but the idea is there.
Its worth exploring.

[Derwan]

If a pulse timetable was used in the off peak

If we had 15-minute off-peak frequencies, we wouldn't need a pulse timetable.  No longer than a 14-minute wait to change to ANY train at ANY station.  A 6-10 minute layover at Roma St would be an inconvenience for people on trains that are going through to their destination (e.g. Ferny Grove line to the Beenleigh line).

[mufreight]

Well said Derwan, it would remove any need for the proposed pulse timetable and improve the co-ordination of rail with bus at locations on the Ipswich line such as Corinda, Darra, Wacol, Goodna, Bundamba and Ipswich which would make the use of public transport a little more convenient for commuters.
No doubt it would also have the same effect on other lines as well.
In a previous post by Somebody

Lack of trains would not require 3 car trains: They run many more services in peak with 6 car trains

Unfortunately with the current avaliable fleet of rollingstock minor maintenence and cleaning is scheduled to be carried out in the off peaks and the more intensive running would shorten the gaps between required servicing aqnd cleaning of the rolling stock if reliability is to be maintained.

[somebody]

Unfortunately with the current avaliable fleet of rollingstock minor maintenence and cleaning is scheduled to be carried out in the off peaks and the more intensive running would shorten the gaps between required servicing aqnd cleaning of the rolling stock if reliability is to be maintained.

What % of the fleet is out of service in the off peaks for these reasons?  Are you saying >75%?

[#Metro]

If we had 15-minute off-peak frequencies, we wouldn't need a pulse timetable.

Sure, I'm not disputing this at all. IF we had a 15 min timetable. We don't at the moment, so in the meantime...

A 6 minute layover is an inconvenience, however, the longer layover at Central could be transferred to Roma Street.
(Or does Central have enough platforms to do it there?). It only adds 6 minutes extra waiting time and this is applied to all services in the off peak (i.e. when people are not rushing to work urgently etc) it would allow people to transfer easily from all other 7 services.

6 minutes or so is quite minor. Trial it on Saturday and Sundays to see if it works and collect feedback.
If it works, extend it into the weekday off peak.

It requires:
* No new trains
* No new funding
* Can be done as soon as the timetables are adjusted and changes are communicated

Whereas 15 min timetable requires:
* New trains most likely
* New funding
* Takes time for the orders to be shipped, delivered, tested and crews to be trained.

Pulse timetable should be a stop-gap measure until 15 min frequency can be achieved.

[stephenk]

As has been mentioned before, reverse-peak and off-peak 15min Kuraby and/or Gold Coast services are not possible with the current infrastructure unless Gold Coast services are slowed down by 4 mins.

What if there was a crossover at Sunnybank or near to allow the Kuraby terminators to use the third track for the Sunnybank-Kuraby stretch?

I think it could possibly work if the running times on the 3rd track and turnaround times suited. It would still not allow 15min off-peak Gold Coast or Beenleigh services, only 15mins off-peak to Kuraby.

If we had 15-minute off-peak frequencies, we wouldn't need a pulse timetable.

Sure, I'm not disputing this at all. IF we had a 15 min timetable. We don't at the moment, so in the meantime...

A 6 minute layover is an inconvenience, however, the longer layover at Central could be transferred to Roma Street.
(Or does Central have enough platforms to do it there?). It only adds 6 minutes extra waiting time and this is applied to all services in the off peak (i.e. when people are not rushing to work urgently etc) it would allow people to transfer easily from all other 7 services.

6 minutes or so is quite minor. Trial it on Saturday and Sundays to see if it works and collect feedback.
If it works, extend it into the weekday off peak.

It requires:
* No new trains
* No new funding
* Can be done as soon as the timetables are adjusted and changes are communicated

Whereas 15 min timetable requires:
* New trains most likely
* New funding
* Takes time for the orders to be shipped, delivered, tested and crews to be trained.

Pulse timetable should be a stop-gap measure until 15 min frequency can be achieved.

A 15min off-peak timetable will not require new trains.

Roma Street is not the best place for the layover as the majority of passengers travel to/from Central.

The current off-peak timetable and layover times allow for all services to use one set of tracks through the CBD Line, so that the other set of tracks can be closed for engineering work without disrupting the timetable. This is a sensible move which means that the timetable does not need to be rewritten every few weekends and evenings.

I doubt a pulse timetable would work reliably. We need to be pressing for a 15min off-peak timetable, not trying to make a 30min timetable more complex!

[#Metro]

So if we already have the trains sitting in the yard...

Roma St is far better place to transfer than Central.

We need to be pressing for a 15min off-peak timetable, not trying to make a 30min timetable more complex!

Sure. But I have my own ideas and I'll post them.

[#Metro]

From our friends at the PTUA

http://www.ptua.org.au/myths/techno.shtml

The city of Zurich has some of the most successful public transport in the world. Yet it has no Maglev, no O-Bahn, no monorails and no ultra-high-speed trains. This is not for want of trying by the city engineers: in 1962 they floated a proposal to put the main tram lines underground and replace the rest with 'space age' buses; in 1973 there was a similar proposal for a new metro system, not unlike the BART which dates from the same period. As both proposals were defeated by referendum, this required the planners to find another way to make trams run efficiently in city streets. Their solution was to systematically remove all impediments to the movement of trams, through such mundane measures as adjusting traffic light sequences, installing concrete kerbs between tram and car lanes, and declaring turn bans at certain intersections. The measures were so successful that they are now employed in a large number of European cities.

Another Swiss invention is the 'pulse timetable', where inter-city trains converge on a single location five minutes before the hour and depart for other locations at five minutes past the hour, allowing anyone to transfer from any service to any other in just ten minutes. No fancy technology is required, just a few planners with a brain between them.

[somebody]

As has been mentioned before, reverse-peak and off-peak 15min Kuraby and/or Gold Coast services are not possible with the current infrastructure unless Gold Coast services are slowed down by 4 mins.

What if there was a crossover at Sunnybank or near to allow the Kuraby terminators to use the third track for the Sunnybank-Kuraby stretch?

I think it could possibly work if the running times on the 3rd track and turnaround times suited. It would still not allow 15min off-peak Gold Coast or Beenleigh services, only 15mins off-peak to Kuraby.

An even simpler solution might be to have the Kuraby train turn around on the middle platform, and the inbound coastie use the third track.  The crossovers needed are already in place.  I figure this should (just) get out of the way of the southbound Coastie in time, although it has no real margin.  Margin could be created by creating another crossover and bi-di'ing the middle track.  That avoids a conflicting move as compared to using the existing bi-di track.

I doubt a pulse timetable would work reliably. We need to be pressing for a 15min off-peak timetable, not trying to make a 30min timetable more complex!

This point I definitely agree with.

Another Swiss invention is the 'pulse timetable', where inter-city trains converge on a single location five minutes before the hour and depart for other locations at five minutes past the hour, allowing anyone to transfer from any service to any other in just ten minutes. No fancy technology is required, just a few planners with a brain between them.

Which is 2.5 minutes worse than a 15 minute frequency with random arrival/departures.  Although a commuter railway would probably squeeze the 10 minute dwell considerably.

[stephenk]

Another Swiss invention is the 'pulse timetable', where inter-city trains converge on a single location five minutes before the hour and depart for other locations at five minutes past the hour, allowing anyone to transfer from any service to any other in just ten minutes. No fancy technology is required, just a few planners with a brain between them.

Did you read the "inter-city trains" bit in that paragraph, yes that's infrequent inter-city trains that run around Swiss mountain valleys, past hairy cows and yodellers.

Brisbane is not Switzerland, and has a suburban rail network which needs a 15min off-peak timetable, not a pulse timetable which has far too many negatives (which I really can't be bothered listing) to make it work in a suburban setting. Move onto the next idea  

[#Metro]

run around Swiss mountain valleys, past hairy cows and yodellers.

Hairy cows? Hairy Cows? Does the scenery matter?

Next thing the government will tell me is that pulse timetable will turn my curtains and GoCard yellow.

Did you read the "inter-city trains" bit in that paragraph

Ipswich, Caboolture, GoldCoast, Sunshine Coast, Springfield and Beenleigh are all intercity.
They are all intercity locations

Brisbane is not Switzerland, and has a suburban rail network

One train per hour (Switzerland) vs two trains an hour (Brisbane- 3rd largest city in Australia). Well, well well Brisbane's off peak 30 minute services are only marginally better than rural Switzerland!


Just trial it on Sunday when there isn't much traffic.

And no, of course this is no substitute for 15 minute timetable.
Actually if you look back a few posts, I was promoting such an idea with my posts discussing
1. the Mohring Effect. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2918.0

where I said:

Imagine what would happen if you increased train frequencies to 15min across the board?

and

What this suggests is that the Rail network could be improved remarkably simply:
1. Just put more trains on.

and a little research showed that Perth actually had it in place already (See Transparency and Performance thread) http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2914.0

Just did a quick comparison of their rail services:
Remember, Perth is smaller than Brisbane in terms of population. It is also less dense in persons/km2.

Train frequencies on a Sunday (October 2009)

TransPerth
Armadale line: 15 minutes after 7 am-midnight   F 6:22am L:12 midnight*
Fremantle line: every 15 minutes after 9 am-6pm F: 6:58 am, L: midnight
Joondalup line: every 15 minutes after 8 am-7pm F: 7:25am L: 12:15 (at night)
Mandurah line : every 15 minutes after 8 am-8pm  F: 7:22am L: 11:45 (at night)
Midland line: every 15 minutes after 9am-6pm F: 7:30  L: 12 (midnight)

Queensland Rail
Beenleigh line: Every 30 minutes (6am-11pm),  F:6:01 am  L:10:31pm
Caboolture line: Every 30 minutes (8am-11pm)  F: 6:07 am L:11:07 **
Ferny Grove Line: Every 30 minutes ( 11am-11pm) F: 5:33 am L: 11:03 am
Shorncliffe line: Every 30 minutes (8am-11 pm) F:5.22 am, L: 10:52pm
Ipswich line: Every 30 minutes (9am-11pm)  F: 6.06 am, L: 11.06 pm
Cleveland line: Every 30 minutes (9am-11pm) F: 5.46 am L: 10:46 pm
Gold Coast line: Every 30 minutes (6am-11pm) F: 6.25 am L: 10:54pm ***


2. Rail upgrade zones. http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3163.0

[somebody]

Ipswich, Caboolture, GoldCoast, Sunshine Coast, Springfield and Beenleigh are all intercity.
They are all intercity locations

I disagree.  Only Gold Coast and Nambour can be considered inter city.

[#Metro]

I would consider any major city/town location out of the Brisbane City Council area an intercity location.

Inter-City Bus

An inter-city bus is a vehicle that operates on a set time schedule, for individual fares, over a regular route and between fixed terminating points. Vehicles that are operated exclusively within a single municipality or the Capital Regional District or the Greater Vancouver Regional District are excluded from the definition of inter-city bus, and are defined as a general passenger vehicle.

http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/rpt/ptola/tutorial/vehicleTypes.html#ICB

Now, if we already have the train sitting in the yard, why are they not being used for every 15 minutes services?

[somebody]

I think it could possibly work if the running times on the 3rd track and turnaround times suited. It would still not allow 15min off-peak Gold Coast or Beenleigh services, only 15mins off-peak to Kuraby.

One possibility would be if there was a 15 minute frequency to Kuraby, all stations, combined with a 15 minute frequency to Varsity Lakes, express Park Rd to Kuraby.  i.e. stoping all stations Kuraby to Varsity Lakes.

Maybe if the Gold Coast people scream loudly enough, that's what they should do!

[Jon Bryant]

Just travelled by train ti the soccer at Suncorp Stadium.  To the game no additional services and train left regular commuters at Roma Street and Central.  On the way home missed a Clevland train by seconds...30 min wait now.  Trial 15 min off peak on Game Nights at least.  Normal services do not cope or take all night to get home. 

[skippy]

OK Bob, for the next media release.

Firstly a few facts
1. The buz routes have been exceptionally successful on routes within 20km of the city, and patronage increased by between 74% and 141%* with no infrastructure changes other than increasing the frequency (and a red sign at the bus stop).
2. The rail network in SEQ is constrained in many parts, however there is no infrastructure enhancements required to provide a 15min off peak service to Ferny Grove, Petrie, Manly and soon Darra.
3. A 15 min service to Ferny Grove, Petrie, Manly and Darra would cater for 51%** of SEQ rail trips, and importantly 80.5%** of all rail trips within 20km of the city.
4. Existing timetables could be adjusted to introduce a new 30min Manly to Ferny Grove service, complementing the existing 30min Ferny Grove & Cleveland services. A new 30min Petrie to Roma St would also be required to complement the existing 30min Caboolture service.

The SEQIP duplications and Cross River Rail are desperately needed to improve counter peak capacity on Beenleigh, Shorncliffe and outer Cleveland corridors, however lets try lobby for a few 15 min off day time off-peak service using the existing infrastructure - more than 80% of rail journeys within 20km is a good start.

* Onboard newsletter June 2007
**Based on the 2009 QR Passenger Load Survey

[#Metro]

The buz routes have been exceptionally successful on routes within 20km of the city, and patronage increased by between 74% and 141%* with no infrastructure changes other than increasing the frequency (and a red sign at the bus stop).

The power of doing a single thing: just increasing the frequency.

No fancy or expensive infrastructure
No crazy fare structures
No sophisticated payment system
Probably no new buses or trains (just use the peak hour ones to fill in the gaps in the off peak)
No real time arrival signs
Minimum cost, minimum effort, maximum results...

If you could get train patronage to increase by 74 - 141% you deserve some cash...

[stephenk]

. A new 30min Petrie to Roma St would also be required to complement the existing 30min Caboolture service.

It would be better to run the Petrie service to Richlands, with Shorncliffe curtailed to Roma Street. Otherwise to get 15min frequency between Darra and Petrie, you would have two services both requiring exactly the same track slot between Northgate and Roma Street.

[Arnz]

It would be better to run the Petrie service to Richlands, with Shorncliffe curtailed to Roma Street. Otherwise to get 15min frequency between Darra and Petrie, you would have two services both requiring exactly the same track slot between Northgate and Roma Street.

Alternatively Shorncliffe could be connected to Cleveland instead, Shorncliffe services now run on the same lines as Cleveland without any conflicts (In that case: Shorncliffe services depart out of Platform 6/7 at Roma Street, 3/4 at Central)

Doomben gets curtailed to Roma Street.

[stephenk]

It would be better to run the Petrie service to Richlands, with Shorncliffe curtailed to Roma Street. Otherwise to get 15min frequency between Darra and Petrie, you would have two services both requiring exactly the same track slot between Northgate and Roma Street.

Alternatively Shorncliffe could be connected to Cleveland instead, Shorncliffe services now run on the same lines as Cleveland without any conflicts (In that case: Shorncliffe services depart out of Platform 6/7 at Roma Street, 3/4 at Central)

Doomben gets curtailed to Roma Street.

If 4tph Ferny Grove services ran to Kuraby/Beenleigh, then both 2tph Shorncliffe and 2tph Doomben could run to Manly/Cleveland (if running times suited).

[somebody]

I'm with trolleybus.

In the next few years, if we could get:
4tph Ferny Grove-Manly, with 2tph extending to Cleveland
4tph Shorncliffe-Kuraby, with 2tph extending to Beenleigh
4tph Airport-Roma St, with 2tph extending to Gold Coast, and 2tph extending to Richlands
4tph Ipswich-Caboolture, skipping Nundah, Toombul, Albion, Woolowin, and 2tph skipping Auchenflower, Taringa, Chelmer, Graceville, Sherwood, Corinda
? Doomben to Roma St.

I think that would be about right

[mufreight]

Come on fellows give a little thought to the practical reality of terminating then turning back services from any CBD station, much less Roma Street, playing trains is one thing actualy operating them in such a manner that the provision of one service does not conflict with another or impinge on the overall capacity of the system to operate reliably is entirely another.

[somebody]

Come on fellows give a little thought to the practical reality of terminating then turning back services from any CBD station, much less Roma Street, playing trains is one thing actualy operating them in such a manner that the provision of one service does not conflict with another or impinge on the overall capacity of the system to operate reliably is entirely another.

We do plenty of it now!

One thing I would ask, is what would be wrong with using Roma St #6 as a turnback platform and avoiding conflicting moves in that way?

The only conflicting move in what I was suggesting then would be the Airport-Richlands 2tph service, conflicting at Roma St junction.

[stephenk]

4tph Airport-Roma St, with 2tph extending to Gold Coast, and 2tph extending to Richlands
4tph Ipswich-Caboolture, skipping Nundah, Toombul, Albion, Woolowin, and 2tph skipping Auchenflower, Taringa, Chelmer, Graceville, Sherwood, Corinda

That would not result in even 15min service gaps for stations between Auchenflower and Ipswich. All services on each line pairing should have matching service patterns.

[mufreight]

Sorry Somebody but while some services are terminated at Roma Street none are currently turned back at that point in normal service

[#Metro]

So what will happen to the Richlands train?
Will it just terminate at Bowen Hills and waste another cross-town service opportunity? Or will it just be an extension of the Corinda train, and then continue to Shornecliffe?

If the 15 minutes is possible off-peak, then why are the trains just sitting idle in the yards?
We've had lots of bus improvements and express ferries and route 77 cross town (the last 2 being things unimaginable fantasy 6 months ago)...

Bus improvements- tick
Ferry improvements - tick
Train improvements 

[somebody]

Sorry Somebody but while some services are terminated at Roma Street none are currently turned back at that point in normal service

Ahh, I think I see what you were saying there now.

All of the current turnback moves at Roma St (that I am aware of) use the Exhibition line, for some strange reason, in spite of that causing conflicting moves especially on the suburbans.  I'm still unaware why they don't use Roma St #6 for these moves.

That would not result in even 15min service gaps for stations between Auchenflower and Ipswich. All services on each line pairing should have matching service patterns.

It would provide that so long as the timetables are co-ordinated!  2tph all to Richlands, 2tph all to Ipswich and 2tph limited stops to Ipswich ought to provide 4tph, all to Darra.

If the 15 minutes is possible off-peak, then why are the trains just sitting idle in the yards?

Two reasons: Tight fisted governments, and a beauracracy which apparently is reluctant to get on and provide service to the public.  What I'm getting at on the last point is the argument: Can't run 15 minute frequency pax service, it would make it too hard for freight.

[mufreight]

Sorry again Somebody only one reason the inept attempted micro management of the commuter system by Translink which was intended to be only a co-ordinating body to oversee operations not a bureaucratic hydra that it has become.

[somebody]

Sorry again Somebody only one reason the inept attempted micro management of the commuter system by Translink which was intended to be only a co-ordinating body to oversee operations not a bureaucratic hydra that it has become.

Umm, but even before Translink was formed in 2004 you didn't have 15 minute frequency anywhere except the weekday daytime stretch to Corinda, or the multiple line sections Park Rd-Northgate.  So I don't think you can blame Translink completely for that one.

CityRail has had 15 minute frequency on some lines for decades.  The North Shore line had it as far back as 1990, and I'm sure earlier, and extending to 10pm (or later) on Sunday.  Also, Bankstown, Bondi Junction, parts of the Illawarra line, parts of the Western line and Liverpool via Granville have all had 15 minute frequency in some way for as long as I have known.  The Carlingford line, Richmond Line, Northern Line and Liverpool via Villawood have always been illegitimate children though.

[O_128]

Carlingford line = Doomben line 

[#Metro]

Two reasons: Tight fisted governments, and a beauracracy which apparently is reluctant to get on and provide service to the public.

I don't know if this is so true now. We have had fare increases to pay for just this. There are new trains coming every month apparently. Perth manages to do it, and their % overall level of subsidy is almost identical to Brisbane's. Perth would also be expected to have less money to go around too...

Sorry again Somebody only one reason the inept attempted micro management of the commuter system by Translink which was intended to be only a co-ordinating body to oversee operations not a bureaucratic hydra that it has become.

This would be good for discussion in the 'value of translink' thread. There are some good aspects, and some bad ones as well... Melbourne does not have a planning co-ordinating body- actually they abolished their Public Transport Corporation, with the planning functions done by DOI, IIRC. In 3 years train patronage has gone through the roof. Melbourne's railways may not be as reliable, but I think they are more frequent...

This was followed by an announcement of the introduction of more than 200 new weekly train services, set to tackle overcrowding on the city's busiest train lines, which had been attributed to a lack of trains and falling reliability.[19] In a period of three years, from 2005-2008, rail patronage grew by 35 per cent.[20][/b]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railways_in_Melbourne

[somebody]

Carlingford line = Doomben line 

I'd say that the Carlingford line is far worse.  The Doomben line supplements the hourly frequency with buses for a half hourly frequency.  The Carlingford line has a flat hourly frequency.  The Doomben line runs through to the city, the Carlingford line requires an unco-ordinated interchange at Clyde.