Article: Logan City plans Springfield-style satellite at Greater Flagstone

[ozbob]

From the Courier Mail click here!

Logan City plans Springfield-style satellite at Greater Flagstone

Logan City plans Springfield-style satellite at Greater Flagstone
Article from: The Courier-Mail

Sarah Vogler

February 23, 2010 12:00am

AN area earmarked for one of the biggest population explosions in the southeast will be developed as a self-contained satellite city similar to Springfield.

The 4000-strong Greater Flagstone population, west of Jimboomba, will explode to 130,000 in just 21 years.

And Logan City Council yesterday revealed just what that community will look like.

Planning and Development Committee Chairwoman, Councillor Cherie Dalley said three options were put to the community before council made its decision.

"The Centres based approach encourages a self-contained development pattern through the creation of communities with a desirable mix of centre activities and dispersed local employment opportunities," Cr Dalley said.

Design will encourage residents to live, work and play in their local area, taking the strain off overloaded transport infrastructure in the area.

Cr Dalley said Greater Flagstone was one of three major areas within Logan earmarked for major development.

"Currently Greater Flagstone is home to approximately 4000 people but in the future it is expected to house more than 130,000 people," she said.

Council's next step will be to investigate priority infrastructure needed to service the massive growth predicted including public transport.

Cr Dalley said the consultation gave the community input into the planning.

"What we have just done is not a mandatory requirement, instead it is something we chose to do to involve the community early so that when we go through the next (statutory phase) there shouldn't be any big surprises."

[#Metro]

And where is the transport out here?

Most of the jobs will be in the City, people will still have to commute.
Just like people in the so called "self contained" Springfield, Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast...

They will demand a bus or rail express service.

[Derwan]

Design will encourage residents to live, work and play in their local area, taking the strain off overloaded transport infrastructure in the area.

This sounds like a cop-out and an excuse not to provide adequate public transport.

The reality is that if it within an hour or so of Brisbane, it will be in high demand for people who work in the city or other areas on the south side.

If they are going to "plan" the satellite city, public transport needs to be included in the plan - even if they are reserved corridors in the initial stages.  Developers should contribute towards a public transport infrastructure fund that can be used as the infrastructure is required.  Rail (or at least a dedicated busway) should be built long before it gets to the stage that Springfield is now.

[Jon Bryant]

How about they trial build the public and active transport to cater for 60% of trips and vehicles for 40% max and see if people's travel behaviour adapts.  Could be a great test case for the future design of the rest of QLD and Australia

[stephenk]

The plan is to build 4 stations on the Brisbane to Sydney Line. Of course, it's not quite that simple. The line will probably need to be duplicated and/or made dual gauge, electrified, grade seperated junction near Salisbury, and have sufficient capacity through the core of the network (extra tracks north of Salisbury, and will require the 1st cross river rail tunnel). This will add up to huge $$$.

Given that Springfield is still awaiting a rail line, I think Logan City Council are rather being optimistic about there being decent public transport to  Greater Flagstone anytime soon.

I wonder if dedicated busways as in some new towns/developments in the UK will be built? Or is that too smart for Queensland?

[#Metro]

Ha, it will probably be yet another car-centric development.
Look at Redcliffe. No rail line, just a promise.
Springfield, no rail line yet - they are going to to that in stages.

They would be better off building a satellite city on the Ferny Grove, Cleveland, Shorncliffe, Beaudesert-Bethania or Doomben lines for what it is worth.

[O_128]

Ha, it will probably be yet another car-centric development.
Look at Redcliffe. No rail line, just a promise.
Springfield, no rail line yet - they are going to to that in stages.

They would be better off building a satellite city on the Ferny Grove, Cleveland, Shorncliffe, Beaudesert-Bethania or Doomben lines for what it is worth.

Better yet just densify beenleigh

[stephenk]

A useful link
http://www.logan.qld.gov.au/lcc/council/haveyoursay/closed/greaterflagstone.htm

[mufreight]

No doubt the existing SG interstate rail line which is currently being dual gauged as far south as Bromelton for freight services could be used to provide a passenger service to this development using railcars on either SG or NG.
Would be interesting to see how Translink interacts with ARTC who now has control of the line from the border to Acacia Ridge.

[O_128]

Would be interesting to see how Translink interacts with ARTC who now has control of the line from the border to Acacia Ridge.

They wont

[mufreight]

The previous post raises the question why not?   

[somebody]

The previous post raises the question why not?   

Shouldn't they get the basics right first?

There's also single track constraints, even if done on NG.  I wonder why it would be being DG'd?  I hadn't heard that before.

[#Metro]

We have been down this path before. It hasn't led anywhere.
It would be worthwhile to connect Algester, Parkinson etc to the rail network.
There is huge demand on 130 and 150 buses from this area...

But will it happen?
Probably not. Single desks only means single desk. Nothing else.
Claims that planning (and actual doing) under a single desk are better than the alternatives have not been strongly proved either way...

[Derwan]

Translink interacts

Now that's an oxymoron!! 

[ozbob]

This might be of interest somebody ..

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1632.0
   
Qld Border - Acacia Ridge Track Upgrade

[Jon Bryant]

If we are to fix our current transport nightmare then a proposal like this should not be approved until it can demonstrate how 60-70% of trips will be made by public and active transport and only 30-40% by road.  I love how they say "Encourage Transit Oriented Developments"  not plan or control or regulate.....  I also noticed that the stations are 3-4 km apart.  If it is to be a Transit focused area then the stations should be the at 1.6km spacing (i.e. 800 meter walk to a station).    

[#Metro]

Where are the jobs? Certainly not in Beenleigh...
This is just going to be another population vat with bad transport links.

QLD Gov apparently wants to build lots more places out in whoop-whoop Ripley Valley.
This will require at least the construction of another freeway. What is their public transport plan?

[longboi]

I would love to see the proposed Ipswich-Springfield transport link extented to the Jimboomba/Flagstone area in light of this proposal.

I think its premature to shoot down this plan when they themselves have stated that they have not begun to investigate the PT required as yet.

[Jon Bryant]

No one is shooting it down.  We just want them to learn from the mistakes of old and build PT first.  There is certainly lots of opportunities to do just that with the line already in place...but if the State Govt is slow to provide a passenger service then the car behaviours are locked in when it does arrive.

[longboi]

No one is shooting it down.  We just want them to learn from the mistakes of old and build PT first.  There is certainly lots of opportunities to do just that with the line already in place...but if the State Govt is slow to provide a passenger service then the car behaviours are locked in when it does arrive.

Tramtrain certainly was.

And I agree with you and hope to see responsible planning which includes provisions for high-quality public transport infrastructure which is developed with the long-term future in mind.

[mufreight]

Ipswich - Springfield extended through to Jimboomba - Flagstone is in reality while possibly desirable for the future the reality is that it is less than a practical aspiration and would require the duplication of the proposed southern rail freight corridor from Rosewood to Kagaru.

[#Metro]

Tramtrain certainly was.

And I agree with you and hope to see responsible planning which includes provisions for high-quality public transport infrastructure which is developed with the long-term future in mind.

I think higher density in centres that are closer to the CBD or existing ones would be better than brand new ones which are always low density and and have high car dependency. I don't know of a single example in Queensland where paddocks and fields were converted into a satellite city and everyone then decided to use public transport everywhere. Is it really true that they are "self-contained" and discourage commuting?

It seems that we would rather use more and more marginal and distant land rather than intensify the low density of the areas that are already built up (infill development). To service brand new cities is expensive (sewerage, roads, electricity grid, water, drainage, phone, gas, public transport) and time consuming.
Kippa ring residents are still waiting.

Ipswich- Most people drive to Brisbane and use the motorway.
Gold Coast- Most people drive to Brisbane and use the motorway
Sunshine Coast- Most people drive to Brisbane
Springfield- Most people drive to Brisbane

Once the horse has bolted though, and it is already too late, the best that can be done is a salvage job to try and coax people to use public transport by providing it. But I think that prevention is far, far better than cure.

Infill to increase density should be priority.

[#Metro]

For the record though, ideally there would be a rail service to serve the people living along the line all the way out to at least Browns Plains. There is huge bus demand in this area for public transport (2 BUZ to Browns Plains, BUZ 130 and a whole bundle of 13X bus lines)

Issues are:

1. Line guage
2. Track capacity constraints
3. Electrification
4. Freight useage (remember Acacia Ridge freight facility is down that line)

[longboi]

Infill development is good but those people that persist on living in fully detached, low density need somewhere to live as well. At least with these sorts of developments we have the chance to plan for public transport before the city is built to infuence travel behaviours instead of the other way around.

[#Metro]

I agree on some point, like planning to make encourage them to use public transport.
But even Brisbane is not like that. Public transport mode share in Brisbane is something like 8% IIRC and it has all the best transport services in the State of Queensland. Anything else is going to come in below that...

The land out there is cheap, but it disguises the true cost. The cost of providing transport to such far flung places in terms of laying track, electrification and other works and then paying for trains to run there would easily run into the high multi-millions. It is for this reason that other, cheaper and less effective modes are chosen such as Bus Priority on Anzac Avenue. And with services like that, one may as well drive a car.

By all means, if it is going to be built, put public transport there.
But before it is built, perhaps it should be considered whether it is a good idea to build it at all.
We sure have better things to spend multi-million dollars on transport in the built up areas...

[#Metro]

The least they could do is grow places along existing or feasible corridors.
Why can't Beenleigh, Caboolture, Redcliffe, Cleveland and Samford be considered instead? Or something off the Bethania-Beaudesert line?

That is where the transport is, and it would be easier to cater for growth in these areas.

[O_128]

Shouldnt Logan really be focusing on improving its current city before building a new one

[stephenk]

The least they could do is grow places along existing or feasible corridors.
Why can't Beenleigh, Caboolture, Redcliffe, Cleveland and Samford be considered instead? Or something off the Bethania-Beaudesert line?

That is where the transport is, and it would be easier to cater for growth in these areas.

I'd like to see you tell people who live in Samford that it should be turned into a large new town! 

[somebody]

I'd have to say, I like the idea of rail service to Algester.  All of the bus options are pretty indirect or slow to get to the Ridgewood Rd/Algester Rd part of the 130.  It would also almost do away with the need for the 110/115 bus routes.

[#Metro]

Maybe Samford is a bit far.   But you never know, it could be a Maleny-like TOD http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maleny,_Queensland
There is a lot of wasted space on counter-peak services. If there was something like a Milton or Toowong on lines then that would be an idea...

That way you could get to work in 15 minutes and go home in 15 minutes.
You wouldn't need to commute to the CBD for 30min-2 hours and you could spend more time doing things you like rather than sit in traffic or wait at train platforms for the next train in 30 minutes. Think of all the money you could save...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_Oriented_Development

[#Metro]

I'd have to say, I like the idea of rail service to Algester.  All of the bus options are pretty indirect or slow to get to the Ridgewood Rd/Algester Rd part of the 130.  It would also almost do away with the need for the 110/115 bus routes.

Like a Sunnybank Hills line?
Do you have a google maps diagram?

[somebody]

TT, no need.  I'm thinking of something along the alignment of the SG line.

[#Metro]

No worries.

This has been discussed, and I think Ms Nolan attacked the idea. There are a few constraints too. Though I think $150 million is a bargain when you consider that Translink is happy to fork out ~ 500 million for 1000m of busway.

---> Debate rages over Beaudesert Rail Service, http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2540.0

A drawing-board idea I floated a while back was to put in a spur line. I'm surprised at how few spur lines we have when compared to, say Melbourne and Sydney. I do note that the 'Y' shaped lines can make it harder to do up timetables.

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3552.msg22854#msg22854

The problem is the same old same old.
The government(s) involved allowed urban sprawl to grow out this far, and now it is going to be a painful, difficult and expensive
exercise to fix it, if it can be fixed at all. Once again development on cheap land has hidden costs which are passed on to the public purse, no wonder it is going for broke and we hear "oh, we can't afford that". I call it "Too Big to Fix".

By far the most salient finding of the analysis is that the per capita cost of most
services declines with density (after controlling for property value) and rises with the
spatial extent of urbanized land area.

This reinforces planners' claim that urban sprawl
undermines cost-effective service provision, and lends support to growth management
and `smart growth' programs aimed at increasing the density and contiguity of metro-
politan areasöat least from the standpoint of public finance. In particular, the models
show that there are savings to be gained in numerous areas, especially where both the
density and the spread of the metropolitan area matter for the cost of service delivery.

Carruthers J I, Ulfarsson G F, 2003, "Urban sprawl and the cost of public services"
Environment and Planning B: Planning and Design 30(4) 503 – 522

http://www.envplan.com/abstract.cgi?id=b12847