Articles: Bus changes announced 10 feb 2010

[longboi]

That's not a bad idea Somebody  What about taking it a step further and after Roma St Busway; travel via Albert, Wickham, Gipps, Story Bridge/Bradfield Hwy, Main St & Terminate at the Gabba?

[somebody]

What about taking it a step further and after Roma St Busway; travel via Albert, Wickham, Gipps, Story Bridge/Bradfield Hwy, Main St & Terminate at the Gabba?

I actually think that would undermine my idea's reason for existing: to connect Roma St & the Gabba at high speed.  Besides, there already is a route which does virtually that: the 475, although I think it probably uses Elizabeth St southbound.

[#Metro]

475 needs alteration to use the Busway.
393 extension is a very very good idea- it gets most of the loop done...


For the imaginative, it could be merged to the 235, 236 Bulimba Ferry.

Too many buses terminate at Cultural Centre.
It wastes a good opportunity to enact cross town services.

[stephenk]

PIDs at RBWH now showing correct 66 destinations.

Reports of a 66 and following 333 both full to capacity at Roma Street (outbound) during am peak today.

[Sir Loin]

PIDs at RBWH now showing correct 66 destinations.

Reports of a 66 and following 333 both full to capacity at Roma Street (outbound) during am peak today.

Just my 2 cents.

I'm finding getting to and from the RBWH a million times better. Hardly any waiting time for services and not much overcrowding.

I guess it depends on what time you travel, but personally it has been great since the changes came in.

Now only if the trains came more frequently.....

[stephenk]

Now whilst the 66 to RBWH is a massive improvement over the previous INB service, I do have 2 issues with the current operations:

1) The 330,333, and 340 sometimes don't seem to think that they now need to pick up passengers at RBWH and RCH. They are timetabled to pick up passengers, and not picking up passengers reduces the frequency, decreases effective capacity, but puts more pressure on the 66 (see below).

2) The 66 to RBWH and RCH have been a huge success and are very popular. I have heard occasional reports of full buses leaving behind passengers at Roma St in the am peak. In the pm peak the 66 often dwells at QUT KG until they are full, or the next 66 arrives. There isn't much capacity left in the system. Translink need to start planning now for increases in INB capacity that will be required in the near future.

[somebody]

Got to agree that point 1 has to stop.

With point 2, making the 66 pre paid would help with the long dwell times.  In addition to my previous point about returning 331/332/341, another option would be extending the P222 to RB&WH.

[stephenk]

Got to agree that point 1 has to stop.

With point 2, making the 66 pre paid would help with the long dwell times.  In addition to my previous point about returning 331/332/341, another option would be extending the P222 to RB&WH.

I would agree that the 66 should become pre-paid, although Translink will need to install AVVMs at all busway stations first. Bendy-buses with multiple entrance doors would also reduce the dwell times at QUT KG, but a heterogenous bus fleet would result in variable dwell times with knock-on effects to the service.

[somebody]

I would agree that the 66 should become pre-paid, although Translink will need to install AVVMs at all busway stations first.

I don't see any reason why they need the AVVMs first.  Alternate routes are present, and besides, most people have come from another route in the AM so those without a Go Card should already have a paper ticket.  I suppose the latter is a point why it mightn't make much difference.

Bendy-buses with multiple entrance doors would also reduce the dwell times at QUT KG, but a heterogenous bus fleet would result in variable dwell times with knock-on effects to the service.

I'm told off bus touch ons are not possible with the current cubic software.  If you have multi door boarding with on bus touch ons, how do you ensure that back door boarders touch on?

[ozbob]

how do you ensure that back door boarders touch on?

Similar to most rail stations, honesty system really ...

[stephenk]

I would agree that the 66 should become pre-paid, although Translink will need to install AVVMs at all busway stations first.

I don't see any reason why they need the AVVMs first.  Alternate routes are present, and besides, most people have come from another route in the AM so those without a Go Card should already have a paper ticket.  I suppose the latter is a point why it mightn't make much difference.

I would strongly disagree. It is a no brainer that a busway station where over 50% of buses would be pre-paid should have a ticket machine. Don't forget that paper tickets will be phased out completely, and some people may need to top up to get home.

Bendy-buses with multiple entrance doors would also reduce the dwell times at QUT KG, but a heterogenous bus fleet would result in variable dwell times with knock-on effects to the service.

I'm told off bus touch ons are not possible with the current cubic software.  If you have multi door boarding with on bus touch ons, how do you ensure that back door boarders touch on?
[/quote]

The same as on trains, trams, and bendy-buses in many cities. The honesty/open system.

[somebody]

I would strongly disagree. It is a no brainer that a busway station where over 50% of buses would be pre-paid should have a ticket machine. Don't forget that paper tickets will be phased out completely, and some people may need to top up to get home.

...

The same as on trains, trams, and bendy-buses in many cities. The honesty/open system.

Ok, it is a fair point that they may need to top up, but when (if) paper tickets disappear, that will apply at every stop.  Why worry about only a handful of stops?  Besides, aren't AVVMs already available at Cultural Centre, South Bank, Mater Hill, Roma St?  Not sure about the Gabba, UQ Lakes, Boggo Rd busway, Normanby and north.

Got to say, I don't like the idea of an honesty system for buses.  It would just be far too tempting to not touch on.  And you can get on a bus at the front door without breaking your stride with the go card system.  The gains of the honesty system are too small.

[Jon Bryant]

Then lets start gating the busways stations and remove scanning onto the bus altogther? 

[somebody]

Further to my previous comments about an honesty system.  The majority of rail passengers are heading to or from Roma St, Fortitude Valley or Central so are forced to use gates at one end.  That wouldn't apply with rear door boarding on buses.

[ozbob]

True, but plenty don't.  The City Glider has already been flagged to be having non-front loading.  I think it will need some aggressive ticketing enforcement and it will sort it out in the end.

If deemed to be a problem (non-touching) then they can stop it, or increase the penalty.  If they ever get bi-artics it will need to be sorted ...

[longboi]

True, but plenty don't.  The City Glider has already been flagged to be having non-front loading.  I think it will need some aggressive ticketing enforcement and it will sort it out in the end.

If deemed to be a problem (non-touching) then they can stop it, or increase the penalty.  If they ever get bi-artics it will need to be sorted ...

I agree. The benefits of faster boarding times outweigh the potential risk of fare evasion as most people do adhere to the honesty system.

That being said, strict enforcement in at least the first six months is a must to ensure otherwise honest people don't start changing their behaviour if they begin to perceive its "easy" to get away with it.

[stephenk]

Then lets start gating the busways stations and remove scanning onto the bus altogther? 

But then you would get inconsistency between people using gates at busway stations, and readers on buses at normal bus stops. This would create even more confusion, especially to new users and tourists. It would be a very bad move.

[#Metro]

They should get gates. Nobody should be allowed near the bus unless they have swiped in.
However, I am extremely wary about this. What if they muddle up this and manage to lock all the commuters in/out at all stations due to a computer malfunction? What if the gate does not beep or flash properly? Will the gate be wide enough for certain individuals? Will this be another PR catastrophe waiting to happen?

The buses could possibly be programmed to ignore touch ons at busway stations (not that it isn't already partially there- its has ignored me 4 times now!). A public education campaign would dispel the confusion and the helping hands could have another show.
A small ad on the back of the GoCard could assist.

It would be the ultimate in speed. Just jump on. No need to swipe, no fumbling, just go through any door you want.

[stephenk]

It would be the ultimate in speed. Just jump on. No need to swipe, no fumbling, just go through any door you want.

It would be the ultimate in confused passengers. Also, how would the system handle transfers between buses at a gated busway station?


Back on topic,
I rode a 66 today from RCH Herston to Normanby just after 4pm. The 66 and following 333 both filled to capacity at QUT KG, and left behind over 30 passengers. By the huge crowd waiting at QUT KG when the buses arrived, I assume the previous bus also left behind passengers. Both the 66 and 333 did not take on waiting passengers at Normanby. More capacity required!

Whilst at Normanby I observed a rather full looking outbound 345 as well.

[MaxHeadway]

How would the system handle transfers between buses at a gated busway station?

I guess you'd have the same readers as train stations do, and allocate a number of buses without readers installed to serve the busways. But that's only possible if the busways are a trunk/feeder setup, so that someone coming from Sunnybank on a 140 has to change at Moron Mountain Griffith University busway station for instance. That removes the busways' drawcard of using several routes to complement each other, before diverging further out.  It might as well be light rail if you're going to do that! Besides, setting aside a proportion of buses without go card readers would reduce fleet flexibility; I don't know how much of a problem that would be?

An honesty system, with go card machines at major on-street stops, might be the way to go. Zurich, Switzerland has ticket machines at a lot of bus stops - even suburban termini.

[Jon Bryant]

That about describes it though the driver could just block/disable the readers when at a busway stop as well.  It is not that hard to work out or program on the Go Card system.  The bus gps location can identify it at a busway

[#Metro]

It would be the ultimate in confused passengers. Also, how would the system handle transfers between buses at a gated busway station?

But this is hardly an insurmountable obstacle.

How does the railway handle it anyway when transferring between trains? You just jump off, and jump on the next service.
Transfers are free within 2 hours anyway. So there is no payment to collect. If someone does touch on, it should beep and have a smiley face or "free transfer" pop up on the screen. It should make no difference.

Although there are problems, most have solutions that can be found..

I rode a 66 today from RCH Herston to Normanby just after 4pm. The 66 and following 333 both filled to capacity at QUT KG, and left behind over 30 passengers. By the huge crowd waiting at QUT KG when the buses arrived, I assume the previous bus also left behind passengers. Both the 66 and 333 did not take on waiting passengers at Normanby. More capacity required!

Regular ICRCS Ekka Loop tunnel services will take the pressure off here.

How much more extra capacity does the busway have?
Perhaps more buses, or bendy ones. Or alter 393 to go to Roma St & Cultural Centre.

[stephenk]

It would be the ultimate in confused passengers. Also, how would the system handle transfers between buses at a gated busway station?

But this is hardly an insurmountable obstacle.

How does the railway handle it anyway when transferring between trains? You just jump off, and jump on the next service.
Transfers are free within 2 hours anyway. So there is no payment to collect. If someone does touch on, it should beep and have a smiley face or "free transfer" pop up on the screen. It should make no difference.

Although there are problems, most have solutions that can be found..

Trains are "gated" and only have limited routes for the Go-Card system to work out. However buses aren't gated, and the system needs to know where you have started and finished a journey. Thus having people transfer within gated busway stations would leave the system not knowing where the transfer was made.

I rode a 66 today from RCH Herston to Normanby just after 4pm. The 66 and following 333 both filled to capacity at QUT KG, and left behind over 30 passengers. By the huge crowd waiting at QUT KG when the buses arrived, I assume the previous bus also left behind passengers. Both the 66 and 333 did not take on waiting passengers at Normanby. More capacity required!

Regular ICRCS Ekka Loop tunnel services will take the pressure off here.

No it wouldn't. Since when has the 1st cross river rail tunnel been planned to serve QUT KG? Why would RBWH workers walk over 5mins to Exhibition station for a train to Roma St when they can walk 1 minute to a busway station to get a bus to Roma Street.

[#Metro]

Trains are "gated" and only have limited routes for the Go-Card system to work out. However buses aren't gated, and the system needs to know where you have started and finished a journey. Thus having people transfer within gated busway stations would leave the system not knowing where the transfer was made.

Gate the stations. The busier ones are effectively gated during peak hour already by security guards, barriers and staff who force you to buy a ticket before accessing the platform.

The transfer is free anyway. No money lost.
Neither the start nor finish is affected by the presence of a transfer. If you touch off at the end, the system will know what to do as the charging is based on zones. It works for trains, and I think it is within the capacity of the GoCard system as it is zones used that is charged not explicit routes. GPS also makes it easier. Even better if there was a cap.

No it wouldn't. Since when has the 1st cross river rail tunnel been planned to serve QUT KG? Why would RBWH workers walk over 5mins to Exhibition station for a train to Roma St when they can walk 1 minute to a busway station to get a bus to Roma Street.

Well, the same reasons why people catch the train at South Bank, Cultural Centre, King George Square, Roma Street etc despite there being busways next to them or nearby.

They might walk to the train:
* if they consistently fail to get onto a bus because it is full and they can't fit and they actually end up waiting 30 minutes-1 hour
* They might be intending to catch a train at Roma Street but actually their train uses the ICRCS tunnel #1, so there is no need...
* They are on a ICRCS tunnel #1 train anyway and want to go to RBWH
* They might also get on as they live or work in the TOD there, and the station happens to be closer to them

[#Metro]

I'm sure yet even more buses are in the pipeline and superbuses as well.
Remember only 20% or so of the bus portion of the 301 000 seats funded by every single cent of fare rises have been delivered.
Just have to wait wait wait..

[somebody]

Back on topic,
I rode a 66 today from RCH Herston to Normanby just after 4pm. The 66 and following 333 both filled to capacity at QUT KG, and left behind over 30 passengers. By the huge crowd waiting at QUT KG when the buses arrived, I assume the previous bus also left behind passengers. Both the 66 and 333 did not take on waiting passengers at Normanby. More capacity required!

Whilst at Normanby I observed a rather full looking outbound 345 as well.

That's sounds like pretty good news really.  It means that people are again using the busway after the debacle since KGSBS openned.  Perhaps less people are using the 37x, but I'd expect an overall increase in patronage.

Does this mean my idea about the returning 331/332/341s should be implemented now?  The 66 already offers reliable frequency, running every 5 mins in peak.

[stephenk]

That's sounds like pretty good news really.  It means that people are again using the busway after the debacle since KGSBS openned.  Perhaps less people are using the 37x, but I'd expect an overall increase in patronage.

Does this mean my idea about the returning 331/332/341s should be implemented now?  The 66 already offers reliable frequency, running every 5 mins in peak.

Using the returning 331/332/341s would be a relatively easy way of adding extra capacity.

[stephenk]

Trains are "gated" and only have limited routes for the Go-Card system to work out. However buses aren't gated, and the system needs to know where you have started and finished a journey. Thus having people transfer within gated busway stations would leave the system not knowing where the transfer was made.

Gate the stations. The busier ones are effectively gated during peak hour already by security guards, barriers and staff who force you to buy a ticket before accessing the platform.

The transfer is free anyway. No money lost.
Neither the start nor finish is affected by the presence of a transfer. If you touch off at the end, the system will know what to do as the charging is based on zones. It works for trains, and I think it is within the capacity of the GoCard system as it is zones used that is charged not explicit routes. GPS also makes it easier. Even better if there was a cap.

I don't think you actually understand how the Go-Card system works. If people could change buses at gated stations, how would the system know where that person changed, and thus what route they took, and which fare to charge? Also, how would the system know that someone is swiping off a particular bus service when they didn't swipe on?

No it wouldn't. Since when has the 1st cross river rail tunnel been planned to serve QUT KG? Why would RBWH workers walk over 5mins to Exhibition station for a train to Roma St when they can walk 1 minute to a busway station to get a bus to Roma Street.

Well, the same reasons why people catch the train at South Bank, Cultural Centre, King George Square, Roma Street etc despite there being busways next to them or nearby.

They might walk to the train:
* if they consistently fail to get onto a bus because it is full and they can't fit and they actually end up waiting 30 minutes-1 hour
* They might be intending to catch a train at Roma Street but actually their train uses the ICRCS tunnel #1, so there is no need...
* They are on a ICRCS tunnel #1 train anyway and want to go to RBWH
* They might also get on as they live or work in the TOD there, and the station happens to be closer to them

A % of RBWH and RCH workers may use Exhibition 2 station instead (those who would use the lines that will run through the new tunnel), but the majority of those won't. QUT KG students who represent the majority of passengers on the INB do not have the choice of rail, and thus have no choice but the use the INB. So, Exhibition station will not solve overcrowding on the INB, running more buses on the INB will!

[#Metro]

Perth has some form of automatic tag off/tag on. involving two different modes.

Controlled stations

At some bus-train interchanges, arriving buses drop passengers off inside the "paid" area of a closed station. These stations have a special arrangement which allows passengers to transfer from a bus to a train and vice versa without going through a fare gate.

Because of this, passengers tagging off a bus at any Controlled Station will automatically be tagged onto the train, and passengers tagging on this bus after getting off the train at a Controlled Station will automatically be tagged off the train before being tagged onto the bus.

So we know that:

Train-Train transfer without touch off is possible and
Bus-Train and Train-Bus is possible, which leaves just
Bus-Bus

I guess one could pose the question. "If you tag on/off, how does it know which train you are catching?".
If we replace the "train" with simply "bus" (and the computers should not care what the vehicle is or looks like), this is how I see it working..

Different system, but still a smartcard. I think It can be done.

If people could change buses at gated stations, how would the system know where that person changed, and thus what route they took, and which fare to charge? Also, how would the system know that someone is swiping off a particular bus service when they didn't swipe on?

Good questions.
I might refer you to Cubic for that question... http://cubic.com/cts/contactform.htm

[somebody]

What's the added value though?

I think it's a solution with a pretty small problem.

[#Metro]

Not 100% sure either way.

Pre-payment in trials conducted at Cultural Centre, Mater Hill etc showed that this lead to faster boarding.
As paper tickets are going to be phased out anyway, everyone will have GoCard, which will make it quicker, but still require people to spend time swiping and gawking at the screen trying to read their balance or understand error messages...

We need to know how long that swiping takes, and whether we assume 1 door or multi-door boarding...

[somebody]

I can board without breaking my stride on a Go card.  There are a few things though, pre-paid 66, pre-paid QSBS maybe a couple of other things, but other than that, why mess with it?  It would be expensive to put in gates etc for buses.

I would advocate retaining paper tickets next year though.  That will make it so much easier for infrequent pax such as tourists.  Just have an even greater penalty.  It's already something like 90% are using a go card or already have a ticket in my observations.

[O_128]

I can board without breaking my stride on a Go card.  There are a few things though, pre-paid 66, pre-paid QSBS maybe a couple of other things, but other than that, why mess with it?  It would be expensive to put in gates etc for buses.

I would advocate retaining paper tickets next year though.  That will make it so much easier for infrequent pax such as tourists.  Just have an even greater penalty.  It's already something like 90% are using a go card or already have a ticket in my observations.

It would be great if all busway buses were prepaid

[Jon Bryant]

I don't think you actually understand how the Go-Card system works. If people could change buses at gated stations, how would the system know where that person changed, and thus what route they took, and which fare to charge? Also, how would the system know that someone is swiping off a particular bus service when they didn't swipe on?

Just like a train. It doesn't.  The Go card has no idea where I change (Central, Park Road, Eagle Junction, Roma Street, etc) but it knows where I swiped on, where I swiped off and works out the zones travelled.  Why would the bus/busway combination be any different.  For example I swipe on the 333 at Kedron (on the bus), get off at RBWH Busway Stop, jump on the 66 and swipe out at the Gabba Busway.  The Go card System would know that I have travelled to zones from Kedron to Gabba.  It also would treat any incorrect swipe as it does for the trains.   

[#Metro]

Something very interesting actually: Research conducted by QUT on Mater Hill Busway station
Boarding and alighting times

http://eprints.qut.edu.au/27416/4/27416.2.pdf

The passengers using GoCard are required to touch off their cards to a card reader before
alighting from bus to facilitate the accurate fare calculation for their trip. All other passengers
are not required to transact at the time of alighting from the bus. Similar to touch on while
boarding, touch off also requires passengers to place the card less than 10 cm distance from
the card reader and steady for one or more seconds. This inevitably has led to an increase in
alighting time per passenger, over the previous system used in 2007 where magstripe card
holders were not required to transact on alighting from the bus.

[Jon Bryant]

This surely highlights a need for gated busways. Even quicker boarding and alighting times could be possible.

[stephenk]

I don't think you actually understand how the Go-Card system works. If people could change buses at gated stations, how would the system know where that person changed, and thus what route they took, and which fare to charge? Also, how would the system know that someone is swiping off a particular bus service when they didn't swipe on?

Just like a train. It doesn't.  The Go card has no idea where I change (Central, Park Road, Eagle Junction, Roma Street, etc) but it knows where I swiped on, where I swiped off and works out the zones travelled.  Why would the bus/busway combination be any different.  For example I swipe on the 333 at Kedron (on the bus), get off at RBWH Busway Stop, jump on the 66 and swipe out at the Gabba Busway.  The Go card System would know that I have travelled to zones from Kedron to Gabba.  It also would treat any incorrect swipe as it does for the trains.   

Incorrect. When you change between buses you swipe off and on, thus the system knows the bus stop, bus route, and most importantly in which zone you transferred. If you transferred buses without swiping off and on at gated station the system doesn't know where and which zone you changed buses. Whilst it could guess, the possible bus route combinations could result in an incorrect fare - for example after the Northern Busway extension opens, you could travel on the busway from UQ to Lutwych via 2 different routes, and 2 different fares (Z1&2 or Z2). The system would not know which route you have taken. As there are limited rail routes, the system knows exactly which route you have taken, but with buses it's a lot more complex.

[Jon Bryant]

On the train Cubic does not know my exact movements just where I started and where I got off.  Why should a bus route be different. Why should I be charged more for taking a different route if I end up at the same place.  The train wouldn't. If the system is treating the route choice you took to get to the same place differently then it is designed wrong.  UQ to Lutwych is the same no matter how you get there.   

[somebody]

I wonder what you'd be charged if you touched on at Corinda and off at Yeerongpilly in peak?  Would it assume you'd gone through the city or realise you could have gone via Tennyson?

[#Metro]

Someone should test this. I suspect it would be a single zone fare.