Cultural Centre Congestion

[dwb]

Sorry to add some more confusion, but a cheap 'fix' could be to scrap the inbound right turn lane for general traffic approaching Grey St from Melbourne St and put an extra lane in for the buses so theres a straight through lane and a turn left lane. However, you would make it similar to the Dutton Park intersection where the left hand lane is actually for turning right (or in this case, going straight through).

This wouldn't add an extra phase, and would allow the West End bound buses to wait out of the way of the Melbourne St portal buses, and vice versa.

That's much more along the lines of what I see as being a feasible solution Golliwog!

[dwb]

any idea why they don't simply re-phase the lights for a combined green straight and left?...

That would involve an additional phase in the cycle.

Couldn't every fourth cycle in the morning or something not give an exit green to SEB portal inbound, and instead give straight and left green at once... or upon command from a staff member at the BMTMC???

[Jonno]

So to avoid congestion and peak oil destruction of our economy, killing more people on our roads, being over-run by concrete on/off ramps and bankrupting our nation trying to outbuilding congestion with more road space we need to have active/public transport and freight rail catering for 60-70% of all trips.

I can't see how playing with just light phasing is going to get us there.  For every $1 not spent on public/active and freight rail we will spent $10 on road construction (and that's being conservative).    To argue that we don't need to spend money on public transport is to accept we will spend 10 fold on roads.

[dwb]

So to avoid congestion and peak oil destruction of our economy, killing more people on our roads, being over-run by concrete on/off ramps and bankrupting our nation trying to outbuilding congestion with more road space we need to have active/public transport and freight rail catering for 60-70% of all trips.

I can't see how playing with just light phasing is going to get us there.  For every $1 not spent on public/active and freight rail we will spent $10 on road construction (and that's being conservative).    To argue that we don't need to spend money on public transport is to accept we will spend 10 fold on roads.

Jonno I generally agree with you that there needs to be a shift toward more sustainable freight and commuting patterns, however, and this is a big however, cars are here to stay and the community demands though its political processes that this mode is accounted for. If you think that you can shut off car funding then you're mistaken, what we need is a well supported shift. But even under that shift, existing roads need to be maintained and design at blackspots improved.

Further, our system is no where near capable and won't be anytime soon of providing service for the entire community at 70% of trips, not with our land use pattern and lifestyle/behaviours. Neither of those are going to change overnight as much as you might hope they will, not even if we lived in a dictatorship where the President/Prime Minister declared car free day life!

[#Metro]

Consider these two axioms:

1. A project is only acceptable if it reduces overall travel time
2. A person will choose the vehicle (car/pt/foot/bicycle) purely based on minimising the overall 'cost' of taking the trip (where cost equals a function which includes variables such as waiting time (related to frequency), cash cost, purpose of trip, comfort level and vehicle journey time).

Under these two circumstances a road project will be approved if it decreases travel times. This is true even if it results in induction of traffic because people move towards consuming that 'benefit' created.

Why do so many people use cars? Because car is the fastest, most convenient mode of transport compared to all other options, based on waiting time and raw vehicle speed. For cities which are compact, have narrow streets, heritage buildings etcetera it becomes physically impossible to accommodate increased cars, which is why I suspect many European cities have high mode share of slower modes (bicycle/public transport/walking).

This ISN'T a reason for not spending money on PT. Public transport might be slower overall but it is cheaper, greener, has high capacity and makes a more pleasant urban environment (people hate freeways constructed everywhere).

It is unlikely that 150 years of Brisbane settlement can be undone. Even if huge effort were expended on the task, only new developments would be affected (unless we bulldoze established suburbs). This is why I think network improvements (core frequent network) and targeted infrastructure projects (busways/CRR) are important because they act on that waiting time and speed components of that mode share equation.

Freeways and roads will continue to be built. They have a purpose (I wouldn't travel to the Gold Coast last weekend if I had to take the train or drive down a 2 lane suburban road for 80 km)... It is important that we separate debates about mobility from generalised "anti-car" crusades.

The most sustainable mode of transport is walking... does this mean that public transport, cars, bicycles and anything else should be banned for the "good" of everyone?

[#Metro]

2. A person will choose the vehicle (car/pt/foot/bicycle) purely based on minimising the overall 'cost' of taking the trip (where cost equals a function which includes variables such as waiting time (related to frequency), cash cost, purpose of trip, comfort level and vehicle journey time).

If you want more people to take PT/bicycle/walk, we need to look at #2.

- cars don't have a waiting time, ditto.
- cash cost (petrol could go up, or you could introduce congestion and or road user charging)
- vehicle journey time (freeway bans, pedestrianising city streets, compact development)

Many people have tried to act on the last one ('ban freeways') but I think this has limited effect because the potential still exists. The desire for people to take car isn't removed. Look at TransApex-- resurrected after how many decades from the Wilbur Smith Plan of 1960? It is also impossible to pedestrianise everything, and compact development will take eternity to act as the number of properties in renovation or development at any one time is an extremely low fraction of the total of at any one time.

The first one is useless and can't be changed, unless you make it law that all cars must have some ignition delay of half an hour (equivalent to public transport waiting time!!! now you see why people don't catch PT and I am a frequency crusader!), which will never fly politically!

The middle one is political TNT, however is probably the least worst and most likely to get up. There needs to be road user and charges. That money can then act as a source for infrastructure funds on PT projects and so forth.

[dwb]

There needs to be road user and charges. That money can then act as a source for infrastructure funds on PT projects and so forth.

You shouldn't charge road users with the goal to suppress road use, at most it should be a side benefit, and is likely to be short lived anyway... it's better the principle is to fund alternatives, reduce general subsidy or other...

But this is all getting off topic... what this thread is about is cultural centre busway station capacity issues and what can be done to address these issues that is practicable!  Massive new bridges when just reaffirming an existing link, or expensive tunnels, and a whole bunch of other things are scope creep.... we need to be looking at the roads around here and how that space is allocated, it really is as simple as that... and that should be true in other locations too, but Cultural Centre is about THE most important to start with!

[#Metro]

You shouldn't charge road users with the goal to suppress road use, at most it should be a side benefit, and is likely to be short lived anyway... it's better the principle is to fund alternatives, reduce general subsidy or other.

..

Why not?

But this is all getting off topic... what this thread is about is cultural centre busway station capacity issues and what can be done to address these issues that is practicable!  Massive new bridges when just reaffirming an existing link, or expensive tunnels, and a whole bunch of other things are scope creep.... we need to be looking at the roads around here and how that space is allocated, it really is as simple as that... and that should be true in other locations too, but Cultural Centre is about THE most important to start with

I think it is important. The very reason we are discussing band-aid solutions is because we don't want to look at high-cost, high-benefit solutions like bus tunnels, grade separation, metros etc because "there is no funding".

I think any solution at CC will be short lived (5 years or less). Even if we get the West End services out of there TransLink is going to add more BUZ routes, demand will add more bus routes and we will be back to square one again.

[#Metro]

I think it is OK to propose a short, a medium and a long term solution to this problem.
That way all bases are covered.

[Golliwog]

I think one of the main reasons we're looking at low cost solutions is because it's not something that needs massive amounts of money spent on it at this point in time. There's much more pressing things like CRR and the NCL. At the moment, the CC still functions. Sure, theres a bit of a delay during peak, but at the end of the day, you still get home and the rest of your journey along the busway is pretty much free flowing.

I would just like to say though, cars do have waiting time (of a sort) due to traffic lights and intersections. Would I be the only one who says waiting at traffic lights seems to take forever? Nope. I know of someone who called up TMR to complain about a set of lights they used very early one morning. She swore she sat there waiting for 5 minutes with not a single car going through from the other approaches. As it is a digital system, the person she was talking to was able to look up the intersection and could tell her precisely how long she had been waiting for, and she refused be believe him that it was (IIRC) less than 1 minute.

I don't know if delay time due to intersections is factored in transport models like waiting time is for PT, but I don't think it is.

[#Metro]

I think that it is incorporated in the overall journey time. But it would be interesting to see what a bit of traffic priority and bus lanes would do.

[Golliwog]

I think that it is incorporated in the overall journey time. But it would be interesting to see what a bit of traffic priority and bus lanes would do.

I know it is incorporated there, but what I meant was, is it factored up like waiting time is for PT?

[dwb]

But it would be interesting to see what a bit of traffic priority and bus lanes would do.

Interesting to think about the psychology of this all.... waiting and bus lanes...

This might be a bit tangential, but its been something I've been pondering of late...

Maybe bus lanes on Ann/Wickham St would be more psychologically acceptable to the public if they were contra flow... that way each and every single driver sees multiple on coming buses, not an empty wasted lane that they have been unfairly restricted from, but something heavily used and also to be kept out of (for fear of head on with a bus!).

Perhaps if we think more like this we might get further... road space reallocation is a (politically) fraught issue!

[STB]

I think one of the main reasons we're looking at low cost solutions is because it's not something that needs massive amounts of money spent on it at this point in time. There's much more pressing things like CRR and the NCL. At the moment, the CC still functions. Sure, theres a bit of a delay during peak, but at the end of the day, you still get home and the rest of your journey along the busway is pretty much free flowing.

I would just like to say though, cars do have waiting time (of a sort) due to traffic lights and intersections. Would I be the only one who says waiting at traffic lights seems to take forever? Nope. I know of someone who called up TMR to complain about a set of lights they used very early one morning. She swore she sat there waiting for 5 minutes with not a single car going through from the other approaches. As it is a digital system, the person she was talking to was able to look up the intersection and could tell her precisely how long she had been waiting for, and she refused be believe him that it was (IIRC) less than 1 minute.

I don't know if delay time due to intersections is factored in transport models like waiting time is for PT, but I don't think it is.

I did a Monash Uni course in Transport Planning a few years ago (still have the folders here packed away), and based on the research they have done in the past, there is a marked difference between 'perceived time' and 'actual time'.  The perceived time can be at least triple the actual time waiting, such as the case of waiting for a bus, train or ferry.  Eg: 2 minutes waiting can feel like 6 minutes has passed, which can cause an increase in stress levels etc and in the case of waiting at a bus stop can make you feel in your own mind that the bus is running late, even if it's proven that it's not.  Interestingly once you are on the bus and moving the perceived time and actual time tend to equal out each other.

I know in my personal travels, waiting at a bus stop for a few minutes can feel a lot longer in my own head and I have to keep reminding myself that the time that has passed has only been a few minutes by constantly checking my mobile for the time.

The quirks of the human mind is amazing!

I'm no scientist but perhaps that's partly why people drive, because the 'perceived time' to wait for a bus seems to take far too long as you aren't going anywhere, even though the actual time passed hasn't been that long at all.

[O_128]

But it would be interesting to see what a bit of traffic priority and bus lanes would do.

Interesting to think about the psychology of this all.... waiting and bus lanes...

This might be a bit tangential, but its been something I've been pondering of late...

Maybe bus lanes on Ann/Wickham St would be more psychologically acceptable to the public if they were contra flow... that way each and every single driver sees multiple on coming buses, not an empty wasted lane that they have been unfairly restricted from, but something heavily used and also to be kept out of (for fear of head on with a bus!).

Perhaps if we think more like this we might get further... road space reallocation is a (politically) fraught issue!

Ive though this aswell. Best place it would work is on corro drive, convert the 2 left lanes to virtually a 2 lane busway after the overpass.

[Golliwog]

I did a Monash Uni course in Transport Planning a few years ago (still have the folders here packed away), and based on the research they have done in the past, there is a marked difference between 'perceived time' and 'actual time'.  The perceived time can be at least triple the actual time waiting, such as the case of waiting for a bus, train or ferry.  Eg: 2 minutes waiting can feel like 6 minutes has passed, which can cause an increase in stress levels etc and in the case of waiting at a bus stop can make you feel in your own mind that the bus is running late, even if it's proven that it's not.  Interestingly once you are on the bus and moving the perceived time and actual time tend to equal out each other.

I know in my personal travels, waiting at a bus stop for a few minutes can feel a lot longer in my own head and I have to keep reminding myself that the time that has passed has only been a few minutes by constantly checking my mobile for the time.

The quirks of the human mind is amazing!

I'm no scientist but perhaps that's partly why people drive, because the 'perceived time' to wait for a bus seems to take far too long as you aren't going anywhere, even though the actual time passed hasn't been that long at all.

Yeah, I did an advanced transport systems class at UQ this semester, and they touched on that a little bit. It's quite an interesting thing to get into, though from the point of view of the planner/designer, all we cared about was what that scaling factor was. Do you know if anyone has done any research into in-vehicle waiting time? Not traffic delays, but waiting for the green light/a gap in traffic at a giveway intersection? Just something I've been thinking about as in my experience, the same as with waiting at a bus stop, waiting at a red light always seems much longer than you know it is. Might have a look around and see if I can find anything.

[dwb]

It is another reason I think things like reliable wifi on buses is important, it is something people can't do in buses, watch youtube, play games etc... yes people do have 3G, but even on Optus this is still pretty unreliable.

[#Metro]

I did a Monash Uni course in Transport Planning a few years ago (still have the folders here packed away), and based on the research they have done in the past, there is a marked difference between 'perceived time' and 'actual time'.  The perceived time can be at least triple the actual time waiting, such as the case of waiting for a bus, train or ferry.  Eg: 2 minutes waiting can feel like 6 minutes has passed, which can cause an increase in stress levels etc and in the case of waiting at a bus stop can make you feel in your own mind that the bus is running late, even if it's proven that it's not.  Interestingly once you are on the bus and moving the perceived time and actual time tend to equal out each other.

I know in my personal travels, waiting at a bus stop for a few minutes can feel a lot longer in my own head and I have to keep reminding myself that the time that has passed has only been a few minutes by constantly checking my mobile for the time.

The quirks of the human mind is amazing!

I'm no scientist but perhaps that's partly why people drive, because the 'perceived time' to wait for a bus seems to take far too long as you aren't going anywhere, even though the actual time passed hasn't been that long at all.

And this is why frequency is so important. It cuts waiting time dramatically.

[ozbob]

And this is why frequency is so important. It cuts waiting time dramatically.

And that is what it is all about ...

[dwb]

And this is why frequency is so important. It cuts waiting time dramatically.

And that is what it is all about ...

Also while realtime info is important... so you can stay in the shop until you're bus is almost there... if done well can practically eliminate stop waiting time!

[#Metro]

Also while realtime info is important... so you can stay in the shop until you're bus is almost there... if done well can practically eliminate stop waiting time!

Waiting is waiting. Whether it is done in the home, up a tree, in a shop... the moment you think "I want to catch PT now" the clock starts ticking.
Even timetables have not eliminated the inconvenience of PT waiting.

Waiting time matters a lot. Imagine if you jumped in your car and there was an ignition delay of half an hour during the day, and up to one hour at night! Car mode share would dive to current PT levels!!!

[dwb]

Also while realtime info is important... so you can stay in the shop until you're bus is almost there... if done well can practically eliminate stop waiting time!

Waiting is waiting. Whether it is done in the home, up a tree, in a shop... the moment you think "I want to catch PT now" the clock starts ticking.
Even timetables have not eliminated the inconvenience of PT waiting.

Waiting time matters a lot. Imagine if you jumped in your car and there was an ignition delay of half an hour during the day, and up to one hour at night! Car mode share would dive to current PT levels!!!

Wrong. If you have a certain window of time to get from A to B, and A happens to be a coffee shop and you happen to have a paper timetable in your hand and you rush to finish your coffee in order to get to the stop in time for the timetabled service and it is actually five minutes late, this is VERY different from sitting there with your magazine and coffee and glancing up at the realtime display above the counter for the local stop, or checking your mobile to see the ACCURATE status of your desired service... it means you can finish you coffee in due course and saunter to the stop just in time to board, skipping the bit where you wait in the sun those extra five minutes because the bus is late. In this case, the bus wasn't late at all, if the realtime info is accurate. People spend huge amounts of time on discretionary activities and if you can fill a small gap with one, rather than sitting in the sun, it is NOT waiting. I will simply not accept your assertion that waiting is waiting.

[somebody]

I agree with dwb.

[#Metro]

Wrong. If you have a certain window of time to get from A to B, and A happens to be a coffee shop and you happen to have a paper timetable in your hand and you rush to finish your coffee in order to get to the stop in time for the timetabled service and it is actually five minutes late, this is VERY different from sitting there with your magazine and coffee and glancing up at the realtime display above the counter for the local stop, or checking your mobile to see the ACCURATE status of your desired service... it means you can finish you coffee in due course and saunter to the stop just in time to board, skipping the bit where you wait in the sun those extra five minutes because the bus is late. In this case, the bus wasn't late at all, if the realtime info is accurate. People spend huge amounts of time on discretionary activities and if you can fill a small gap with one, rather than sitting in the sun, it is NOT waiting. I will simply not accept your assertion that waiting is waiting.

Then don't accept my assertion. Perhaps we should hand out coffee and muffins at rail stations to make up for the poor frequency! Or fit cars with half an hour ignition delays so people can grab a coffee and read the paper. There have been many times I have got to a QR station to glance at the timetable or display and be told HALF AN HOUR WAIT

Real time displays do help, but don't eliminate the waiting component.

The patronage increases on BUZ have been achieved by cutting waiting time, and not by increasing vehicle speed. Yes, people could read the paper, file their nails, do crosswords etectera, but that does not diminish the fact that they are still waiting, they are doing these things while they wait and they would be rather doing something else.

[dwb]

Wrong. If you have a certain window of time to get from A to B, and A happens to be a coffee shop and you happen to have a paper timetable in your hand and you rush to finish your coffee in order to get to the stop in time for the timetabled service and it is actually five minutes late, this is VERY different from sitting there with your magazine and coffee and glancing up at the realtime display above the counter for the local stop, or checking your mobile to see the ACCURATE status of your desired service... it means you can finish you coffee in due course and saunter to the stop just in time to board, skipping the bit where you wait in the sun those extra five minutes because the bus is late. In this case, the bus wasn't late at all, if the realtime info is accurate. People spend huge amounts of time on discretionary activities and if you can fill a small gap with one, rather than sitting in the sun, it is NOT waiting. I will simply not accept your assertion that waiting is waiting.

Then don't accept my assertion. Perhaps we should hand out coffee and muffins at rail stations to make up for the poor frequency! Or fit cars with half an hour ignition delays so people can grab a coffee and read the paper. There have been many times I have got to a QR station to glance at the timetable or display and be told HALF AN HOUR WAIT

Real time displays do help, but don't eliminate the waiting component.

The patronage increases on BUZ have been achieved by cutting waiting time, and not by increasing vehicle speed. Yes, people could read the paper, file their nails, do crosswords etectera, but that does not diminish the fact that they are still waiting, they are doing these things while they wait and they would be rather doing something else.

I think you've missed the point, if you have a stop based realtime display you can just as easily have a mobile realtime display, that means you don't take yourself to the stop before the time the bus gets there. Poof, no more waiting.

[#Metro]

I think you've missed the point, if you have a stop based realtime display you can just as easily have a mobile realtime display, that means you don't take yourself to the stop before the time the bus gets there. Poof, no more waiting.

DWB, a printed rail timetable or a printed bus timetable gets x patronage.
Double the frequency and pax increase. What explains that?

It is still waiting. You haven't avoided spending that time, it just has to be spent on something else that you don't really want to spend it on.
That time still has to pass.

It's not so bad, but it still places PT at a disadvantage relative to other modes (car).

[dwb]

I think you've missed the point, if you have a stop based realtime display you can just as easily have a mobile realtime display, that means you don't take yourself to the stop before the time the bus gets there. Poof, no more waiting.

DWB, a printed rail timetable or a printed bus timetable gets x patronage.
Double the frequency and pax increase. What explains that?

It is still waiting. You haven't avoided spending that time, it just has to be spent on something else that you don't really want to spend it on.
That time still has to pass.

It's not so bad, but it still places PT at a disadvantage relative to other modes (car).

Most people have flexibility in their lives to fit in various tasks around other tasks, as such, knowing ACCURATELY and FOR CERTAIN when a service will come, can make a huge perceptual difference. This is relevant and true up to hourly services, and most run by Translink are at least hourly.

Believing in the importance of realtime info does not take away from believing in the need for frequent or reliable services... actually I see it as a core component.

And again I would assert you are wrong, it is not just frequency which drives patronage improvements, rather it is the service more closely meeting people's expectation of it. If you take a long and circuitous route that is slow with multiple stops, you may slightly increase services but you won't achieve what you want. I know you love the idea of a steam iron, but really, BUZ is about multiple things, not just frequency, but also simplicity and generally limited stops, direct routes, and consistency, both from a routing perspective, a travel time perspective, and a time of day - you know it will be running. The key driver here is actually simplicity... something which realtime will help deliver upon.

And believe me I've spent many a day waiting for BUZes wondering where the damn bus is, and if only I had realtime info on my phone I could have occupied countless hours doing more enjoyable or productive things, either at the stop, at my home or workplace, place of study, shopping, recreating at the park, or chatting with friends. Even at the stop I can relax and watch that youtube clip because the bus isn't due just yet and I don't have to keep an overly zealous eye on the road for that bus that might just drive straight past me if I haven't leap from the seat to hail it as it comes around that blind corner. I'm sorry you can't open your mind to anything beyond three ideas, subway, frequency and steamiron...

[Gazza]

Agree with Simon and dwb....There is some scope to make the actual waiting a bit nicer, even on high frequency services, where the wait could still be 14 minutes.
The proof in this is the way stations and stops get upgraded to provide a more comfortable environment. There's waiting in the shade with a bench, or there is waiting in the sun or rain, standing up. Or waiting somewhere with nice ambience, or waiting at somewhere like one of the feral stations in the outer suburbs.
So I don't think 'waiting is waiting', because there's other factors that make it nice. Now, nice stops aren't a subistitute for frequency, but they have to influence patronage in some way, or else they wouldn't bother.

In the same way that uncertainty makes the wait feel longer, certainty would help make it feel shorter, so accurate real time info is important for that reason too.

I think dwb is right about using wait times more productively. It's not necessarily "waiting" that is the commodity, but time itself, which is "The least renewable resource of all".
So if knowledge lets you do something in the mean time, that's time you've saved say later in the day when you get back home from your travels.
I mean, how spontaneous is travel anyway? You say the clock starts ticking the moment you want to make a trip....Is it when the thought pops into your head?
But if its something like a trip to the shops, and there was other stuff you had to do that day anywa, then being able to do something around the house you had to do anyway in the meantime, is not just 'pure' waiting. It keeps you occupied.

And don't even bother saying stuff like I'm implying that congestion or longer waits are a good thing, because it lets people do their makeup in their car, because that's not what I mean.

Hehe, going by my avatar a bit, but its like waiting in line to go on a theme park attraction. Some theme parks just have cattle pens you queue up in in an endless zigzag. Other theme parks have you queuing up in elaborately themed areas with forms of entertainment (Eg TV screens giving a backstory, things to see and do, making the queue path follow a twisting route with lots of hidden details to look at)
You could well be 'waiting' the same amount of time for the ride under both scenarios, but the latter one, where the theme park has made an effort to make the queue part of the experience...well the time goes faster.

[#Metro]

And again I would assert you are wrong, it is not just frequency which drives patronage improvements, rather it is the service more closely meeting people's expectation of it. If you take a long and circuitous route that is slow with multiple stops, you may slightly increase services but you won't achieve what you want. I know you love the idea of a steam iron, but really, BUZ is about multiple things, not just frequency, but also simplicity and generally limited stops, direct routes, and consistency, both from a routing perspective, a travel time perspective, and a time of day - you know it will be running. The key driver here is actually simplicity... something which realtime will help deliver upon.

I never said that it was just frequency. But I think that is the MAIN way to make a dent in travel journey time. Nice stations, even air conditioning does increase patronage but nowhere near decent frequency improvements. A weekend ago I went out on BUZ 100 and people were crowding at bus stops- even the ones without a seat or shelter, ones across main roads, just to get to the frequency.

BUZ is a nice experiment because the only things that change are the frequency and the scope of hours. The stops don't change, the speed of the service doesn't change, the signs don't change, the seating doesn't change, the route doesn't change, the number doesn't change...

I'm not denying the contribution of real time signs, comfortable waiting environment or whatnot, but IMHO these are small fry compared to decent frequency.

And believe me I've spent many a day waiting for BUZes wondering where the damn bus is, and if only I had realtime info on my phone I could have occupied countless hours doing more enjoyable or productive things, either at the stop, at my home or workplace, place of study, shopping, recreating at the park, or chatting with friends. Even at the stop I can relax and watch that youtube clip because the bus isn't due just yet and I don't have to keep an overly zealous eye on the road for that bus that might just drive straight past me if I haven't leap from the seat to hail it as it comes around that blind corner. I'm sorry you can't open your mind to anything beyond three ideas, subway, frequency and steamiron... Sad

If I don't validate your beliefs or opinions, that's just too bad. Its a forum, we can write our opinion and people don't have to agree with it.

[dwb]

If I don't validate your beliefs or opinions, that's just too bad. Its a forum, we can write our opinion and people don't have to agree with it.

I'm not seeking validation but now would be a nice time to point out the irony in your signature... are you in stage 2 of realtime information?

[Golliwog]

TT, while I think the frequency certainly helps get people to route 100 (and other BUZ routes), I think it's also the simplicity that helps. In the offpeak, they know that at the same 4 times in any hour there will be a bus. I still have to check the timetable everytime I use the 362, just because while it's roughly hourly, its rough so the time past the hour varies.

While I agree that waiting is waiting, I agree that if you're able to do something else like grab a coffee, you're not really waiting. Sure you've got the bus/train you have to catch at the front of your mind, but if you know exactly when it will be coming then no biggie.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Its called multitasking

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Less could be more for bridge

Less could be more for bridge
Tony Moore
December 2, 2011 - 3:01AM

Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk has agreed to discuss the future of Brisbane's congested Victoria Bridge with Lord Mayor Graham Quirk next week.

And cutting the number of peak-hour services in the area to reduce the number of half-empty buses on the bridge could be on the table.

In the past fortnight six traffic experts have raised major concerns that the bridge has reached its capacity at peak hours.

Buses queue across the bridge in the morning and afternoon peak hours and there are also lengthy delays in the nearby South Bank busway while buses wait to turn right on Melbourne Street.

Several traffic planners this week suggested it was time to plan for the removal of cars from the bridge and make it Brisbane's second car-free green bridge.

Ms Palaszczuk said it was time to begin talking about the future of the bridge.

"I have a meeting with the Lord Mayor coming up in about a week's time, so I am happy to put this on the agenda," Ms Palaszczuk said.

"Because, you are right, where we can work together, we should.

"But I do want to stress, it is a council bridge."

Ms Palaszczuk said she did not think it was time to remove cars from the bridge.

"At the moment cars do need to go to and from the city in that direction," she said.

She said the immediate fix was to stop running empty buses across the bridge in peak hour.

"What we do need to do is to extend the capacity of the buses through, so we are not sending half-full buses through the bridge," she said.

Ms Palaszczuk said the Transport Department was now working on a "risk assessment" of the Cultural Centre busway with council.

Translink is also studying problems with "half-full" buses leaving the Myer Centre and going towards the Cultural Centre busway in peak hours.

"Translink is doing a lot of work at the moment to make sure that we have the maximum capacity on the buses that are running through there, "she said.

"So you are not running buses at peak (hours) that are half-full."

A number of bus routes are being reviewed she said, but declined further details.

Ms Palaszczuk said she was unaware council's long-term plan was for a new bridge from the top of Adelaide Street, contained in their 2006 Inner City Shape Study.

"They have not raised it with me, but I am happy to have a look at it," she said.

The idea seems to have stalled with council admitting last week that there had been no talks about the concept in the past 12 months.

The government is relying on Brisbane's underground rail project, Cross River Rail, to reduce inner-city demand on buses and cars.

Ms Palaszczuk announced test drilling, but no official go-ahead, for the project this week.

She would not canvas what would happen if Cross River Rail did not get federal funding.

"Look, we are very positive about Cross River Rail and we are doing everything we can to make sure that it is "shovel ready".

"It's our number one infrastructure project, the federal government has recognised it as very important and it is up to them to consider the business case."

She declined to indicate how much private sector money might be required for the project.

Translink studies flexibility for Victoria Bridge

More buses will use the Captain Cook Bridge at Woolloongabba and the Story Bridge to take pressure from the Victoria Bridge, Translink acting CEO Matt Longland said.

He said the busway exit behind the Morrison Hotel at Woolloongabba allowed considerable flexibility.

"The exit provides a more direct route to the CBD and is ideal for peak-only services, such as the route 205 (Carindale Heights to CBD) and 217 (Carindale to CBD)," Mr Longland said.

"They were introduced as part of the Eastern busway opening in August and route 88, between Eight Miles Plains and Indooroopilly, is another recent service to benefit from this exit."

Mr Longland said the increased discount to encourage commuters to travel outside peak hours being offered in January next year (up from 15 per cent discount to 20 per cent), would be effective.

"But longer-term, Victoria Bridge bus access improvements are identified in the 2031 strategic projects in South East Queensland's transport plan: Connecting SEQ 2031," he said.

Other long-term suggestions

- make the Victoria Bridge a pedestrian thoroughfare;

- build a tunnel from the Cultural Centre to the Myer Centre;

- run buses to Woolloongabba and Bowen Hills and connect with trains; and

- expand South Brisbane train station as a new city station and encourage people to walk over the Victoria Bridge.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/less-could-be-more-for-bridge-20111201-1o92q.html

[dwb]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Less could be more for bridge

Less could be more for bridge
Tony Moore
December 2, 2011 - 3:01AM

Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk has agreed to discuss the future of Brisbane's congested Victoria Bridge with Lord Mayor Graham Quirk next week.
...
Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/less-could-be-more-for-bridge-20111201-1o92q.html

My comment:

Outbound buses queue more than inbound buses because there is only ONE lane after the busway station for buses turning BOTH left onto the South East Busway under the convention centre and for buses going straight through to West End. Therefore only one left turning bus is needed to block through buses and only one through bus is needed to block all left turning buses - each light cycle only allows left turning buses and then straight through buses, never both at once! To fix this, a small section of road could be taken to allow the West End buses to queue for their green separately to buses entering the busway portal. In the short term, cars could continue to have road space on the bridge, given some simplification at either end ie the bus turning lane as above and the removal (at very least in peak) of the general traffic right turn from North Quay onto Victoria Bridge. Now can you pay me $400,000k consultancy for this info?

[somebody]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Less could be more for bridge

Less could be more for bridge
Tony Moore
December 2, 2011 - 3:01AM

Transport Minister Annastacia Palaszczuk has agreed to discuss the future of Brisbane's congested Victoria Bridge with Lord Mayor Graham Quirk next week.
...
Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/less-could-be-more-for-bridge-20111201-1o92q.html

Sounds like they've either been reading my comments, or come up with the same sorts of ideas themselves.  Well done.

My comment:

Outbound buses queue more than inbound buses because there is only ONE lane after the busway station for buses turning BOTH left onto the South East Busway under the convention centre and for buses going straight through to West End. Therefore only one left turning bus is needed to block through buses and only one through bus is needed to block all left turning buses - each light cycle only allows left turning buses and then straight through buses, never both at once! To fix this, a small section of road could be taken to allow the West End buses to queue for their green separately to buses entering the busway portal. In the short term, cars could continue to have road space on the bridge, given some simplification at either end ie the bus turning lane as above and the removal (at very least in peak) of the general traffic right turn from North Quay onto Victoria Bridge. Now can you pay me $400,000k consultancy for this info?

Interesting idea.  I think basically you are suggesting that the straight through lane head east becomes a bus lane in the opposite direction, with straight through car traffic sharing the right turn lane.

I like this idea very much, and it is more politically achievable than closing the bridge to cars.

[dwb]

Interesting idea.  I think basically you are suggesting that the straight through lane head east becomes a bus lane in the opposite direction, with straight through car traffic sharing the right turn lane.

I like this idea very much, and it is more politically achievable than closing the bridge to cars.

Yep more or less... it was also discussed earlier on this thread...
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3356.msg77209#msg77209
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3356.msg77273#msg77273

[Ed. links added.]

[Golliwog]

http://media.brisbanetimes.com.au/news/national-news/buses-queue-across-victoria-bridge-2807379.html

Timelapse of buses queuing across the Victoria bridge during the afternoon peak.

[ozbob]

 

[HappyTrainGuy]

Should of had it taken more photos so its not as jerky.

[Mr X]

Should of had it taken more photos so its not as jerky.

I agree, is sorta hard to figure out if the buses you see in one frame are the same as those in the next =/