Cultural Centre Congestion

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Ban cars from Victoria Bridge: experts

Ban cars from Victoria Bridge: experts
Tony Moore
November 22, 2011 - 7:59AM

Cars should be banned from Brisbane's Victoria Bridge to counter growing peak hour congestion for buses, public transport specialists say.

There are now more than 200 buses an hour on the bridge between South Bank and the CBD in the morning and afternoon peak periods, an increase of 15 buses an hour in the past two years.

University of Queensland's urban planning expert Professor Peter Spearritt, a former director of the Brisbane Institute, said cars should be banned from the bridge immediately.

"It should have happened a year ago," Professor Spearritt said.

"You have an absurd build-up of buses in the tunnel coming on to Melbourne Street, that is travelling south to north," he said, reporting his observations came from personal experience.

"And in morning peak period, people can be sitting there for 20 minutes.

"It is just ridiculous, just ridiculous."

Professor Spearritt advocated the Victoria Bridge should become Brisbane's second "green" bridge, and like the Eleanor Schonell Bridge at St Lucia, be only opened to public transport, cyclists and pedestrians.

Rail: Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow agreed, saying the Victoria Bridge was now "controlled chaos", with the bridge choked by buses in the morning and afternoon peak hours.

"I think cars have to be removed from Victoria Bridge," Mr Dow said.

"That would give them some extra capacity with some remodelling of the Cultural Centre bus station.

"Perhaps put another lane in there, that would mean that buses would flow a bit easier."

Mr Dow said this was an immediate solution to the peak-hour problem but the long-term answer was the 2006 idea of a new "green bridge" from the top of Adelaide Street.

"The system is just overloaded. There is just far too many buses being squeezed in at peak times," Mr Dow said.

"It is almost routine now to have a bus jam inbound in the morning and outbound in the afternoon.

Mr Dow said there would be no support for plans to put buses in special lanes on the Riverside Expressway or the Story Bridge.

"There would be as much chance of that happening as me flying to the moon tomorrow," he said.

He understood removing cars could open the debate about "funnelling" cars on the nearby Go Between Bridge where motorists pay a toll, but this could be managed.

Professor Spearritt said there were two problems with the current arrangement.

In the morning, buses queued waiting to turn right to get on to the Victoria Bridge from the South Bank busway.

In the afternoon peak, there was "shocking congestion" at the Cultural Centre bus station.

"That is more problematic, that is a hard one. They just that they don't have enough bus stopping spots to do the pick up," he said.

Professor Spearritt said he unsure of the merit in building another bridge at the top of Adelaide Street.

But he said the success of Brisbane's first "Green Bridge", Eleanor Schonell Bridge at St Lucia, was a test case to getting rid of cars from Victoria Bridge.

"The phenomenal success of the Green Bridge in terms of pedestrians and cyclists and buses is there for all to see. I mean thousands and thousands of people use it a day."

Professor Spearritt said there was a "relatively modest" number of motorists using the Victoria Bridge and it should become a "bus only" link as soon as possible.

"There are other ways of getting and out of the CBD," he said.

"It should be done immediately."

The state government and Brisbane City Council last night rejected calls for such a move.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/ban-cars-from-victoria-bridge-experts-20111122-1nrl5.html#ixzz1eO7UOuXp

[ozbob]

Poll is interesting --> http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/polls/victoria-bridge-congestion-20111122-1nrjj.html

[somebody]

Interesting comment from one blogger.  There are no cars in the photo, only buses.  So I guess you could have the CC terminating routes out with the traffic if there was a stop to support them and also the traffic lights ex-QSBS supported it.  Of course, that is a tad silly.  The real problem is in the other direction and I don't believe you will have yet another traffic light phase to allow getting from the VB into QSBS.  You'd also need a hole in the wall on the CC southbound platform to allow boarding buses heading for the mixed traffic on the VB.

[colinw]

Interesting comments & poll result.  Shows that a lot of people are starting to 'get it', although I'll bet that the same article run over at a News corp site would get a very different response - it being on a Fairfax site does select a more PT friendly audience to an extent.

[Fares_Fair]

Voted ...
Results so far -->

Should cars be banned from the Victoria Bridge to make way for buses?

Yes  71%
No   29%

Total votes: 724.

Regards,
Fares_Fair

[Golliwog]

I would have thought it's the intersections either end of the bridge that cause the bus congestion on the bridge, not the bridge itself.

[AnonymouslyBad]

I would have thought it's the intersections either end of the bridge that cause the bus congestion on the bridge, not the bridge itself.

I guess the idea is that if you take cars off the bridge, you can then simplify the intersections to allow more buses through.

The article itself acknowledges Cultural Centre as being at capacity, so it's a bit of a headline grabber to imply that just taking cars off the bridge will fix anything much. But presumably widening the bridge would allow three or four platforms at Cultural Centre, which if used wisely and as two separate paths would help a lot.

Still good to see coverage of this issue.

[ozbob]

Media release 23 November 2011

SEQ: Cultural Centre Bus Congestion Capacity Crisis - solutions?

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters calls for solutions to the congestion crisis at Cultural Centre to be implemented.

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The Cultural Centre busway station is at capacity with a bus every 20 seconds or less, and 9000 passengers per direction per hour, this means proper solutions need to be found to ease congestion at this location. Waiting for an unfunded rail project that has an entirely separate passenger catchment area to the busway, or extolling the virtues of the Go Between Bridge are non-solutions (1, 2)."

"There are a number of options that should be considered. Creating a Green Bridge by closing two car lanes would allow terminating buses (300 series) plus West End (196/199/192/CityGlider) and Western Suburbs buses (400 series) to stop at new, separate platforms. This would be significantly cheaper and rapid to construct than an entirely new Victoria Bridge, which could easily cost around $120 million and two to three years to construct. Green Bridges work well, for example, the Eleanor Schonell Bridge (3)."

"This option has two disadvantages though - bicycles would have to use the pedestrian lanes, and car users would be offended, even though those car lanes carry nowhere near 9000 passengers/hour/direction. As an alternative, a smaller and cheaper pedestrian only bridge could be considered to take cycling and foot traffic to permit the remaining 2 car lanes are given over to buses."

"Other options include removing non-BUZ services from Cultural Centre and sending these over the Captain Cook Bridge, using more rocket buses over the Captain Cook bridge together with a bus lane on the Captain Cook Bridge and all-door boarding on buses."

"Eventually something will have to give. Unless something is done Brisbane runs the risk of a congestion cascade where buses are banked up inside Queen Street busway and Adelaide streets. Captain Cook Bridge is also not a perfect solution as a single accident or delay on that can throw the entire bus network into chaos."

"Let's see all options on the table, the benefits and disadvantages of each and solutions implemented. Constant delays and difficulty in accessing the buses are turning people away from public transport, and further compounding the congestion crisis on Brisbane's failing road system."

References:

1. Brisbane Times  http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/ban-cars-from-victoria-bridge-experts-20111122-1nrl5.html

2. Cross River Rail  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2034.msg76360#msg76360

3. Cultural Centre Congestion  http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3356.0

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org
RAIL Back On Track http://backontrack.org

[dwb]

Some interesting discussion here: http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7022.msg76691#msg76691

[Jonno]

Was at Cultural Centre today and thought that if all the bridge could be used for busway then it could be possible to drop the buses connecting to the busway between a new platform on the performing arts side & existing western platform, build underground platforms for those services and tunnel under Grey/Melbourne street intersection and connect to busway. Non busway sevices would use the top platforms.

Cheaper than building a new bridge which would require rebuilding the station anyway.

It might cut though some car parking or the car park access but I don't care.

Thoughts?

[#Metro]

Was at Cultural Centre today and thought that if all the bridge could be used for busway then it could be possible to drop the buses connecting to the busway between a new platform on the performing arts side & existing western platform, build underground platforms for those services and tunnel under Grey/Melbourne street intersection and connect to busway. Non busway sevices would use the top platforms.

Cheaper than building a new bridge which would require rebuilding the station anyway.

It might cut though some car parking or the car park access but I don't care.

Thoughts?

I've had similar thoughts. You could have a 2-level cultural centre 400 series and West End on the top level
and then 200 series and whatnot in the underground level.

If that goes ahead, then I'd like to see new busway stations in the CBD- Post Office Square, Creek Street Financial District and Fortitude Valley

[dwb]

Was at Cultural Centre today and thought that if all the bridge could be used for busway then it could be possible to drop the buses connecting to the busway between a new platform on the performing arts side & existing western platform, build underground platforms for those services and tunnel under Grey/Melbourne street intersection and connect to busway. Non busway sevices would use the top platforms.

Cheaper than building a new bridge which would require rebuilding the station anyway.

It might cut though some car parking or the car park access but I don't care.

Thoughts?

Over engineered and too expensive, not to mention difficult to construct ie disrupting existing services

[Jonno]

Ok so do nothing works?

[ozbob]

The CC has been a looming and festering problem for years.  It is another monument to the general public transport approach - the culture of failure is manifest.  

Let's pretend it is 'world class' ...  

We will continue to highlight the issues and solutions ....

[somebody]

The CC has been a looming and festering problem for years.  It is another monument to the general public transport approach - the culture of failure is manifest.  

Let's pretend it is 'world class' ...  

We will continue to highlight the issues and solutions ....

The part that I can't believe is that the Cultural Centre was supposed to be the solution for the addled city stop locations AIUI.  God forbid that they should fix the latter!

[Jonno]

I just the economics of do little for public transport, watch the pt mode share decline further and spend a couple of billion dollars providing more roads space for motor vehicle which are the least efficient forms of moving freight and people.

So a do nothing approach because it is expensive actually costs more. Don't get that at all.

[achiruel]

So a do nothing approach because it is expensive actually costs more. Don't get that at all.

Yes, but it keeps the voters happy.  Most people don't actually want to take or like public transport.  Probably a large part of that is because it's so sh*t, but I work with some people who refuse to ever use it because they have to travel with other people - funny thing is one of them I think we should be grateful doesn't take PT, he has a serious BO problem 

[dwb]

Ok so do nothing works?

Spending a lot of money to entrench an existing problem is not clever in any way and I can't see how you think it is, actually I can, you're an engineer right? it's your bread and butter...

I'm only half taking the p%ss

[ozbob]

From the Brisbanetimes click here!

Victoria Bridge our 'weakest link', say transport experts

Victoria Bridge our 'weakest link', say transport experts
Tony Moore
November 28, 2011 - 7:11AM

Four more public transport figures have backed calls for cars - and in some cases buses - to be banned from Brisbane's Victoria Bridge.

Six transport "planners" have now described the Victoria Bridge, from the top of Queen Street across to the Cultural Centre, as Brisbane's public transport's weakest link.

They say there is simply no more room to put extra buses across the bridge.

Two say the bridge should become part of a grand pedestrian walkway, free of cars and buses, that would become an international feature for Brisbane.

The bridge is jammed in morning and afternoon peak hours with more than 200 buses an hour running through the Cultural Centre Busway, according to Translink.

Last week lobby group Rail Back on Track and former Brisbane Institute strategic planner Peter Spearritt opened the debate and called for cars to be banned from Victoria Bridge.

Since then, Brian Camilleri from transport planners the TTP Group, Professor Phil Charles from the University of Queensland's school of engineering, Michael Roth from the RACQ and a fourth transport planner, who requested anonymity, have weighed into the debate.

Transport engineer Mr Camilleri said the number of buses expected to travel along the Eastern Busway and the Southeast Busway would put too much traffic on Victoria Bridge.

The South East Busway now carries 150,000 people a day, while the "junior" Eastern Busway will carry about 7000 people a day by 2016.

"When you are spending that much money - billions and billions on busways feeding out to all these outer suburbs - if you don't do something with the most important link, it is almost defeating the purpose," Mr Camilleri said.

'These things are going out as far as Capalaba.

"But where do they all feed to? The City, into the Myer Centre and they rely on that little tiny bridge to get across."

Mr Camilleri said planners should build a tunnel under the river between the Myer Centre and the South Bank Busway, which was considered when the busway was planned.

"So to me, the ultimate scheme ... would be to put it underneath," he said.

Mr Camilleri said the solution was to remove the buses, remove most of the traffic lights and open up the Melbourne Street strip as a grand boulevard.

"If you got rid of all the bus stuff down there, I think it would become a great boulevard," he said.

"From West End, all the way down Boundary Street there right into the heart of Brisbane.

"It could become a great feature of Brisbane.

"But you stand there now and I think I counted 65 red lights. It's like a Christmas tree, it's just ridiculous."

But a senior transport planner from a southeast Queensland firm, who asked for anonymity, said a tunnel under the river would be "too steep" and "too expensive".

The man works for a company contracted to the state government to provide transport advice.

"There is less funding available and the question of how we get transport projects funded and moving forward, really it is becoming more difficult to do to those really big schemes," he said.

"There is obviously difficulties in funding Cross River Rail at the moment."

The specialist said it was difficult to see how another "under-river" tunnel could be funded in Brisbane in the current economic climate.

He said the location was also difficult for a tunnel.

"It is fiddly trying to join all the elements together," he said.

"It is a reasonably deep river and if you can get it [the tunnel] down, could you get back up again in so short a distance?"

The specialist said he believed the better option was re-prioritise the current services, but doubted Brisbane City Council's plan to build a new bridge from Adelaide Street would work.

"Launching that bridge from the South Brisbane side would be tricky," he said.

"You have to connect that into the [Cultural Centre] busway and you do have already capacity constraints with the platforms as we speak."

The planner also questioned the problems of connecting into the existing intersection at the top of Adelaide Street.

"It would change the three-way intersection into a four-way intersection."

He agreed that cars should be phased off the Victoria Bridge and the bridge considered a pedestrian walkway.

"By taking out cars, you potentially reduce the conflict so the journey is quicker and the amenity for those [South Brisbane to CBD] movements is a lot stronger.

"I would certainly like to see a where we did give that priority and it could be a real statement for the city."

Transport Professor Phil Charles, from the University of Queensland's School of Engineering, said the Cultural Centre Busway was already choked and decentralisation was the answer.

Professor Charles said buses should now link to rail stations outside the inner city such as Albion and Bowen Hills.

"At the moment there is just no more capacity in the city," Professor Charles said.

He agreed research was badly needed to examine future growth of the Cultural Centre busway at South Brisbane.

"And it is not so much the Victoria Bridge, it is where the buses can be accommodated and where they can be terminated to get into the city," he said.

"Sydney's George Street is now 'wall to wall' buses.

"There is just a physical limit on how much you can get the capacity in there, and it is the same here in Brisbane."

Professor Charles doubted there was merit in spending a lot of money on a bridge under the river to connect the Myer Centre and the South Bank busway.

"Tunnels are 10 times more expensive than surface facilities, so you really do need to look very seriously at whether you can justify it," he said.

"What I do is stand back and say 'why are we trying to solve this short-term problem when we should be looking more long term?'

"And to me, in the long term, it is not viable. You can't keep pouring more and more into the city."

The RACQ's director of public policy, Michael Roth, agrees Victoria Bridge has no more room for buses.

"It is pretty much at capacity, the problem is that the busway intersection with Melbourne Street is also at capacity," Mr Roth said.

"Putting more capacity on Victoria Bridge won't improve the situation."

Mr Roth said the RACQ believed Translink's only solution to get more buses on to the South East Busway was to take divert them to the Captain Cook Bridge.

"And they have already been taking been pursuing the strategy," Mr Roth said.

He said there was a "fine balancing act" under way at present.

"The big point is that they can't take too many more buses through South Brisbane. They might be able to take some more buses through the Captain Cook Bridge.

"But they can't get any more through that South Brisbane section."

Mr Roth questioned the cost of busways, suggesting more benefit could come from dedicated bus lanes on roadways.

"When one understands that every kilometre of busway equals about four kilometres of additional bus lanes that do not exist, it is easy to see how alternative projects could possibly have delivered more benefit," he said.

Mr Roth said congestion costs would be the decider.

"The ultimate performance indicator in this space is of-course congestion," he said.

"RACQ surveys show over 90 per cent of members believe congestion is increasing."

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/victoria-bridge-our-weakest-link-say-transport-experts-20111128-1o1up.html

[Mr X]

i agree with the comments about turning Melbourne Street into a boulevarde. Currently the area is pretty dead, considering the amount of cafe's, high density residential and commercial nearby. It's a pretty bad walking experience, especially around the cultural centre intersection.
It would be hard to remove buses completely from this street unless you built a busway to west end or re-routed them via Peel Street with the general traffic (horrible idea imho). The whole South Brisbane precinct could be a nice pedestrian zone but all the traffic just ruins that. Look at Cordelia and Merivale Sts- inner city wasteland!

[O_128]

It seems no one is willing to state the obvious, take the cars off the bridge though of course its unthinkable.

The commenter Commuter seems to be stuck in a 1950s time warp. But some people are starting to get it, We are using buses and pretending they are trains.

The cheapest solution is to close down the bridge to cars, add 2 more platforms and implement the solutions for the intersections at both ends proposed by RBOT members.

Also at last the RACQ is talking a bit of sense but how about bus lanes to chermside and carindale from where the busways are supposed to go, no need to wait 20 years for billions of dollars worth of infrastructure.

[Mr X]

I was agreeing with 'Commuter' until I saw this:

Also, why are there dedicated bus lanes 24/7 on the bridge? Peak hour bus lanes would do just as well and cut car congestion too.

I've been in a car across the bridge at 9pm at night and the car section has been congested. With all the stops my bus makes, it's still quicker than the car to get to the city, because the bus can go straight across while the cars get stuck for 10mins in traffic!     leave the buses be!

Also at last the RACQ is talking a bit of sense but how about bus lanes to chermside and carindale from where the busways are supposed to go, no need to wait 20 years for billions of dollars worth of infrastructure.

100% agree! No more eastern busway style over-priced under utilised glossy world clarse lumps of concrete, please.

[#Metro]

Looks like we are going down the path of Ottawa...

[somebody]

Looks like we are going down the path of Ottawa...

The "busway spine" service was what un-did Ottawa.  I don't know why we want to replicate that mistake here.

The specialist said he believed the better option was re-prioritise the current services, but doubted Brisbane City Council's plan to build a new bridge from Adelaide Street would work.

It's not entirely clear what is meant here, but if he means running less of the city bound pax via South Bank, that would be good.

[Jonno]

But a senior transport planner from a southeast Queensland firm, who asked for anonymity, said a tunnel under the river would be "too steep" and "too expensive".

The man works for a company contracted to the state government to provide transport advice.

"There is less funding available and the question of how we get transport projects funded and moving forward, really it is becoming more difficult to do to those really big schemes," he said.

"There is obviously difficulties in funding Cross River Rail at the moment."

The specialist said it was difficult to see how another "under-river" tunnel could be funded in Brisbane in the current economic climate.

And herein lies our transport problem.  This advisor should be saying "scrap all your road projects and easily fund the busway fix because the roads expansion is just adding to congestion (see RACQ quote) and the money is better spent on public transport".

[#Metro]

Don't see evidence as to why it would not be possible.

Tunnel could begin past Mater Hill, travel under Grey/Stanley Street and then up into Adelaide Street or continue underground stopping at Post Office Square, Creek Street, Fortitude Valley and then surface.

[dwb]

Don't see evidence as to why it would not be possible.

Tunnel could begin past Mater Hill, travel under Grey/Stanley Street and then up into Adelaide Street or continue underground stopping at Post Office Square, Creek Street, Fortitude Valley and then surface.

Why would you bother, there'd be many better places to spend money. We need more routes rather than simply a bigger route.

That probably means using both REX and Story Bridge as alternative accesses to the CBD.

[dwb]

Having lived within a few kilometres of the Victoria Bridge for most of the last 30 years and used it frequently as a driver, cyclist, motorcyclist and pedestrian I can tell you this - It functioned better before the council experimented with the dedicated bus lanes. The Cultural Centre Bus exchange is a world winning boondoggle of public transport infrastructure - ideologically driven, unintuitive, inefficient, dangerous and illogical.

Give Victoria Bridge back to all the people of Brisbane â€" 4 lanes of free flowing traffic shared by all types' vehicles and add a sun shade for pedestrians. Need evidence - stand on the bridge in peak hour and watch all the near empty subsidised buses hog the outbound lane whilst tax payers that fund them either stew in traffic, or as, pedestrians they melt in our sub-tropical sun.

Julian | Brisbane - November 28, 2011, 9:55AM

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/victoria-bridge-our-weakest-link-say-transport-experts-20111128-1o1up.html#ixzz1eym0Qh9L

This guy has some points, but by and large is the kind of thinking that pervades the community and is stopping anything sensical or logical happening.

[O_128]

Having lived within a few kilometres of the Victoria Bridge for most of the last 30 years and used it frequently as a driver, cyclist, motorcyclist and pedestrian I can tell you this - It functioned better before the council experimented with the dedicated bus lanes. The Cultural Centre Bus exchange is a world winning boondoggle of public transport infrastructure - ideologically driven, unintuitive, inefficient, dangerous and illogical.

Give Victoria Bridge back to all the people of Brisbane â€" 4 lanes of free flowing traffic shared by all types' vehicles and add a sun shade for pedestrians. Need evidence - stand on the bridge in peak hour and watch all the near empty subsidised buses hog the outbound lane whilst tax payers that fund them either stew in traffic, or as, pedestrians they melt in our sub-tropical sun.

Julian | Brisbane - November 28, 2011, 9:55AM

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/victoria-bridge-our-weakest-link-say-transport-experts-20111128-1o1up.html#ixzz1eym0Qh9L

This guy has some points, but by and large is the kind of thinking that pervades the community and is stopping anything sensical or logical happening.

So Public transport users don't pay tax?

Also the structure can't handle sun shades for some weird reason.

[#Metro]

This guy has some points, but by and large is the kind of thinking that pervades the community and is stopping anything sensical or logical happening.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

CC Busway = 9000 pphd!!! A freeway lane does max 2000 pphd, Victoria bridge with cars, even less!!!

MADNESS!!!

[#Metro]

Why would you bother, there'd be many better places to spend money. We need more routes rather than simply a bigger route.

That probably means using both REX and Story Bridge as alternative accesses to the CBD.

What? More band-aid solutions? How long will it take before these options also max out?

These routes are Class C rights of way. Think of it like having QR citytrain suddenly jump off the tracks and then packed 1000 pax trains going down adelaide street to access the platforms at central station.

Class A is very expensive, but in the inner city where there is very high volume, and the network has critical points, CLASS A is the only way to go.

This is why I think a tunnel is the most appropriate solution. Why?

(a) Because it is Class A
(b) Class A gives high capacity
(c) We need high capacity
(d) We need to insulate the network from interference from road and pedestrian traffic at this location
(e) anything less will be cheaper but will soon max out capacity and we will be back at square one again - this doesn't mean that cheaper/faster solutions can't be done, but it DOES mean that any el cheapo/el fasto solution will only delay the inevitable.

Ottawa is getting a tunnel under the city for this very reason- to get vehicles OFF the street. (albeit they are using the core as light rail here).

Long term I think a North-South subway is the way to go. You can still have buses use QSBS and CC, INB etc but the bulk of the SE Busway pax would be on automated, ultra high frequency trains (think Vancouver Skytrain or Toronto TTC) that would run under the CBD, stop at Creek St Financial district, Fortitude Valley and then continue north to Aspley and Chermside.

[#Metro]

North-South Subway http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6950.0

[somebody]

Don't see evidence as to why it would not be possible.

Tunnel could begin past Mater Hill, travel under Grey/Stanley Street and then up into Adelaide Street or continue underground stopping at Post Office Square, Creek Street, Fortitude Valley and then surface.

Why would you bother, there'd be many better places to spend money. We need more routes rather than simply a bigger route.

That probably means using both REX and Story Bridge as alternative accesses to the CBD.

We don't often agree, but I am with you here.  via South Bank is simply an illogical route for several parts of town.  REX is also faster than via South Bank.  I feel it is a failure that so many of the CBD pax go this way.

[dwb]

Why would you bother, there'd be many better places to spend money. We need more routes rather than simply a bigger route.

That probably means using both REX and Story Bridge as alternative accesses to the CBD.

What? More band-aid solutions? How long will it take before these options also max out?

These routes are Class C rights of way. Think of it like having QR citytrain suddenly jump off the tracks and then packed 1000 pax trains going down adelaide street to access the platforms at central station.

Class A is very expensive, but in the inner city where there is very high volume, and the network has critical points, CLASS A is the only way to go.

This is why I think a tunnel is the most appropriate solution. Why?

(a) Because it is Class A
(b) Class A gives high capacity
(c) We need high capacity
(d) We need to insulate the network from interference from road and pedestrian traffic at this location
(e) anything less will be cheaper but will soon max out capacity and we will be back at square one again - this doesn't mean that cheaper/faster solutions can't be done, but it DOES mean that any el cheapo/el fasto solution will only delay the inevitable.

It is predominantly the station that is the limiting factor. Remove the ROW issues and you still have issues at all central stations (including KGS, CCBS, QSBS, Mater and South Brisbane). Fact.

[dwb]

Having lived within a few kilometres of the Victoria Bridge for most of the last 30 years and used it frequently as a driver, cyclist, motorcyclist and pedestrian I can tell you this - It functioned better before the council experimented with the dedicated bus lanes. The Cultural Centre Bus exchange is a world winning boondoggle of public transport infrastructure - ideologically driven, unintuitive, inefficient, dangerous and illogical.

Give Victoria Bridge back to all the people of Brisbane â€" 4 lanes of free flowing traffic shared by all types' vehicles and add a sun shade for pedestrians. Need evidence - stand on the bridge in peak hour and watch all the near empty subsidised buses hog the outbound lane whilst tax payers that fund them either stew in traffic, or as, pedestrians they melt in our sub-tropical sun.

Julian | Brisbane - November 28, 2011, 9:55AM

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/victoria-bridge-our-weakest-link-say-transport-experts-20111128-1o1up.html#ixzz1eym0Qh9L

This guy has some points, but by and large is the kind of thinking that pervades the community and is stopping anything sensical or logical happening.

So Public transport users don't pay tax?

Also the structure can't handle sun shades for some weird reason.

Sorry I should have explained what he said that I agree with and what I don't agree with (as predominantly I re-posted that as an exemplar crazy opinion, not the opposite!)...

I do agree with 3 things he said or implied (and only these three):
a) it is a boondoggle of infrastructure, ideological in that a bunch of routes that don't need to be there are sent there for ideological purposes
b) there is an issue with too many sometimes unfull buses... air on all those weird express/rocket/weird stopping or doglegg routes that should be simplified down to 3 route options, BUZ full length limited stops, short BUZ (ie running to point Y about 1/2 of route) and express to point Y BUZ routes.
c) pedestrians and cyclists are majorly underserviced on this link, and pedestrians really do need shade

I definitely DO NOT agree with putting it to four general traffic lanes as it is an ideological waste of space and everyone instead should drive their cars.  Is that double emphasis enough?

[dwb]

Interesting to compare the Brisbanetimes.com.au approach with Couriermail who are currently only "campaigning to have a stretch of the M1 'fixed'"...

http://www.couriermail.com.au/questnews/logan/accidents-per-year-clog-up-logan-stretch-of-m1/story-fn8m0u8i-1226206471126

600 accidents over 5 years clog up Logan stretch of M1

by: Katie Duncan, Albert & Logan News From: Quest Newspapers November 26, 2011 12:01AM
36 comments

600 accidents have occurred on the Logan stretch of the M1 over the last 5 years. Source: Quest Newspapers
There have been 600 crashes in five years on the stretch of the M1 the News is campaigning to have fixed, with bad driver behaviour the cause of most.

Department of Main Roads figures show there were 600 reported crashes on  the  M1 between the Gateway and Logan Motorway overpasses from 2005-2009.

The department said data on crashes after this period was not yet available.

``Driver behaviour such as speeding, illegal manoeuvres, drink driving, not wearing a seatbelt, driving tired, disobeying a traffic light or sign and dangerous driving contributed to more than 85 percent of all crashes on this stretch of road from 2005 to 2009,'' a department spokesman said.

Of the crashes, 254 were rear-end collisions, 178 motorists hit objects and  85  involved  side swiping.

The statistics also reveal that roadworks and road quality did not contribute to accidents.


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Most of the crashes resulted in property damage (228), followed by medical treatment (154), and hospitalisation (113).

A total of 103 crashes led to minor injuries and there were two fatalities  in 2005 and 2006.

The figures have seen the RACQ label the stretch a `worst link' in its crash mapping reports, giving it a ``high risk'' rating.

RACQ senior traffic and safety engineer Gregory Miszkowycz suggested additional lanes, limiting the number of cars entering  at merge points and  longer merge ramps could reduce crashes, as could improved driver behaviour.

``Motorists should drive courteously and obey the road rules,'' he said.

``When merging, try to match the speed of vehicles on the motorway, indicate and perform shoulder checks prior to changing lanes.

``Stay alert  don't drive tired, distracted or impaired by alcohol or drugs; maintain a safe following distance of at least two seconds in good dry conditions or minimum four seconds in adverse weather conditions.''

The Department of Main Roads spokesman said soon-to-be-completed upgrades at Springwood and Daisy Hill would improve road safety.

Accidents between Gateway Motorway to the Logan Motorway:

Crash nature  - Total
Hit object  - 178
Hit pedestrian - 1
Head-on collision- 2
Angle collision - 43
Overturned -17
Rear-end collision - 254
Fall from vehicle - 7
Sideswipe  - 85
Hit parked vehicle - 8
Other - 5
Total - 600
Period: 2005 - 2009


Does this stretch of road need to be upgraded?  Let us know by leaving a comment below.

[O_128]

FFS the M1 has been "fixed" non stop for the last 20 years.

Also DWB, I read somewhere but can't remember where that the Vic bridge can't handle fixed shades for some weird reason and I don't think it can take Light rail either.

Interesting that the old Vic bridge could do both these things and looked good.

[#Metro]

We don't often agree, but I am with you here.  via South Bank is simply an illogical route for several parts of town.  REX is also faster than via South Bank.  I feel it is a failure that so many of the CBD pax go this way.

Cultural Centre is an important interchange point for the rest of the network. Interchange in the city isn't that great.

It is predominantly the station that is the limiting factor. Remove the ROW issues and you still have issues at all central stations (including KGS, CCBS, QSBS, Mater and South Brisbane). Fact.

The station is a limiting factor, but the lights at either end don't help either. I still think Subway is the way to go- KGS is pretty full as it is with buses, Adelaide Street is used because buses can leapfrog so you don't get the restricted capacity issues that you get with stations such as KGS BS; if we were to do a bus tunnel we could split the traffic stream into via South Bank/via tunnel/via Captain Cook Bridge but the stations would still be capacity limiting.


There is one thing I would like to know

What's the plan? It's not like DTMR and TransLink didn't know that CC and busways et al have capacity issues. The Mass Transit Report of 2007 spells out the issue in black and white. Ottawa is also an example- their Slater street and whatnot started to get issues with heaps and heaps of buses on it.

At the moment it looks like there IS no plan! The glaring absence of busway capacity issues in the Connecting SEQ 2031 document is also noted.

[#Metro]

Fall from vehicle - 7

So what were these people doing?

[dwb]

Also DWB, I read somewhere but can't remember where that the Vic bridge can't handle fixed shades for some weird reason and I don't think it can take Light rail either.

Interesting that the old Vic bridge could do both these things and looked good.

I've heard that over and over again and I simply don't believe it. Especially if you were to remove the car access, then the load on the bridge would surely decrease. It is probably more to do with what you make it of and how you attach it to the bridge and for example what kind of strain a storm wind would put on it.

I see no reason why a light weight canvas solution couldn't be employed. It may not last 100 years without maintenance, but it would provide much needed shade. They could get QHealth to pay for it, that is 30,000 people per day less not being exposed to burn time on their walk to/from work.

The issue with lightrail is to do with the pressure waves in the bridge... I wouldn't be surprised if this could be 'gotten around too'....

Sometimes excuses are made and repeated so often they become "truth"... I question those!