Platform heights

[ozbob]

Platform heights is an issue that is not going away.  Recent reports of issues at Indooroopilly have highlighted once again the network wide problem.  Are there solutions?

Some photographs of the step up at Indooroopilly, 44cm (17 ¼ inches).





Photographs mufreight 23rd January 2010

[O_128]

It should be an urgrent issue that all platforms are raised with in the next 2 years

[somebody]

I question why it's a problem.  It prevents problems with people putting their feet between the train and the platform.  Even high-height platforms still require a ramp for wheelchair access don't they?  They certainly do on CityRail, although an exception could be Brisbane Domestic Terminal with it's very narrow gap between the train and the platform.  It's a bit of a pain if you are on crutches, but it can be done without assistance.

[#Metro]

Has anyone ever fallen through the gap? Little kids?

[stephenk]

I question why it's a problem.  It prevents problems with people putting their feet between the train and the platform.  Even high-height platforms still require a ramp for wheelchair access don't they?  They certainly do on CityRail, although an exception could be Brisbane Domestic Terminal with it's very narrow gap between the train and the platform.  It's a bit of a pain if you are on crutches, but it can be done without assistance.

Maybe you should spend a day in a wheelchair, or on crutches? I would hope that you would form a different opinion!

A 44cm gap, means that the ramp slope is quite steep. It can be difficult to push, or even drive some electric wheelchairs up/down steep slopes. For someone on crutches with limited joint movement 44cm would be very difficult to deal with.

(I have a brother with cerebral palsy, and have accompanied him on rail journeys, so I have observed these issues at first hand).

[Nightwriter]

Don't forget there is also the elderly and frail, who may not be in a wheelchair or have some kind of mobility assistance, but would rightly consider the height of train to platform difficult to manage.

[O_128]

Don't forget there is also the elderly and frail, who may not be in a wheelchair or have some kind of mobility assistance, but would rightly consider the height of train to platform difficult to manage.

thats not even the point. There is no reason why the platforms cant be raised. Though becuase this is a gov owned company DDA doesnt apply

[ozbob]

From  http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=300.msg13831#msg13831

==============

From the Courier Mail click here!

Rail platform curve puts passengers in danger

Rail platform curve puts passengers in danger
Article from: The Courier-Mail

Ursula Heger

September 15, 2009 12:00am

COMMUTERS at one of Brisbane's largest stations are being injured after falling in a large gap between the train and platform despite a $26.5m upgrade.

The Courier-Mail has learned rail passengers at Indooroopilly Station, including a 15-year-old intellectually disabled boy, have been injured boarding trains.

Local MP Scott Emerson said he expected the problems to have been fixed by the recent $26.5 million upgrade, but he had still received numerous complaints.

Passengers yesterday struggled getting into trains, with a knee-high step of about 40cm and about a 15cm gap between the train and platform. Queensland Rail disputes the size of the gaps.

Regan Hill, who suffers from a rare brain birth defect, fell in the gap while travelling with his carer last month.

His mother, Raewyn Hill, said her son could have been severely injured after the doors began to close while he was trapped.

"He had tried to pull himself up on the two handles on either side of the door, he didn't have enough momentum, and he slipped and fell down and one leg was stuck," she said.

"His carer was trying to pull him out from behind, and she couldn't, and that's when they said the train doors were closing. There was a man on the train who helped get him on, luckily."

Mrs Hill said she had written twice to Queensland Rail about the incident, and had been advised that there were special areas where people with disabilities could access trains.

But she said she was just trying to ensure the same situation did not happen to other children or passengers.

Mr Emerson said he had heard of several other serious cases where people had come to harm after falling.

"I have had three people contact my office, and someone from my office witnessed one where a young boy slipped through and the mother had to grab him out," he said.

"Queenslanders have a right to be alarmed if the Bligh Government believes this unsafe station is the standard for its infrastructure projects. Surely passenger safety should be this Government's priority."

QR passenger executive general manager Paul Scurrah said the gap had been left to stop trains hitting the platform, as Indooroopilly station was built around a curve in the line.

"QR is not able to raise platforms at Indooroopilly station, because raising them would cause some trains to strike the edge of the platforms, which are curved," he said.

[somebody]

Has anyone ever fallen through the gap? Little kids?

The annual figure on CityRail is 1xx.  Can't remember exact numbers.

I actually knew someone that did it.  Of course, she was blind.

To avoid large gaps between the trains and platforms would mean that the platforms cannot be curved.  Indro is curved, so it's a choice between an elevation change, and a sizeable gap.

Maybe you should spend a day in a wheelchair, or on crutches? I would hope that you would form a different opinion!

A 44cm gap, means that the ramp slope is quite steep. It can be difficult to push, or even drive some electric wheelchairs up/down steep slopes. For someone on crutches with limited joint movement 44cm would be very difficult to deal with.

(I have a brother with cerebral palsy, and have accompanied him on rail journeys, so I have observed these issues at first hand).

Yes, Ok, a double disability with crutches AND limited movement in your good knee would make it challenging.

A longer ramp wouldn't be as steep.


44cm does seem a little excessive.  After spending $26.5m at Indooroopilly station they couldn't raise it at all?  And that alleged 15cm gap between the train and platform?  I'll have to pay attention next time I am there.

[O_128]

At manly there is a huge gap where the second carrige stops. when it was raining i slipped and my leg fell in there and im young and fit

[Derwan]

It's basically a case of step up or step over (the gap).  I would personally prefer to step up and have no chance of anything or anyone falling through the gap.  (If you weren't careful, you could put a foot through the gap and be in serious trouble.)

I think for some stations the step up is too high.  There must surely be a compromise between a large step and door-level platforms that have a gap.  It'd be nice if the platform was just below the door ledge - but that may cause issues with freight trains - and may still have positioning difficulties for curved platforms.

[somebody]

It's basically a case of step up or step over (the gap).  I would personally prefer to step up and have no chance of anything or anyone falling through the gap.  (If you weren't careful, you could put a foot through the gap and be in serious trouble.)

Thank you.  That's exactly what I've been trying to say.

[mufreight]

There have to my knowledge been at least two recorded instances where people , one which I witnessed where a 5/6 year old child had slipped/fallen through the vertical gap between carriage and platforn at this station which had a full rebuild costing $26.5 million a much publicised feature of which was the disability access to the platforms.
With reference to the comments by Somebody I would make these comments.
Curved platforms, platforms 5/6 at Central are at carriage floor height and are curved.
Freight rollingstock regularly operated through platform 6, the waggond attached to the rear of the Westlander, container trains that have on occasion been routed through Central to Bowen Hills due to problems on the exhibition loop and on occasion hauled by a 2800 class loco which are restricted on some lines because of being slightly over width compared to other locos.
The argument that a platform can not be built to carriage floor height if built of a curve is spurious as a simple exercise in geometry clearly shows, at worst a horizontal gap of 15cm with a platform at carriage floor height is considerably safer than a 44cm vertical gap.
There is no valid reason why the platforms at Indooroopilly could not have been raised to carriage floor height during the reconstruction, as could have been the platforns at Fortitude Valley.
It is also worth noting that the new platform at Oxley has also been constructed below carriage floor height and that the new platform at Darra is also being constructed below carriage floor height,
The existing platforms at Darra now closed for the reconstruction are to be left at the old low height despite the opportunity to raise them while the reconstruction is underway.
The obvious advantages of raising the platform heights to carriage floor level are better passenger access for all passengers, not just the disabled and elderly infirm, faster loading times and a safer more pasenger friendly access and exit to comply with the ZERO HARM protocols for rail.
I might suggest that if you doubt the height of the gap at Indooroopilly then you should measure it yourself, I did and I can provide you with a list of over 30 platforms where the height difference exceeds 35 cm (14 inches)
At Indooroopilly the problem is exacerbated by the superelevation of the curve which tilts the carriage away from the platform.
The step heights for comercial buildings where there is no horizontal or vertical gap is about 25cm.
It would seem that the govening factor is saving money not the convenience or safety of commuters.

[ozbob]

When I was down at Varsity Lakes I noticed it was  at full height.

I have seen freight and locomotives pass through platforms 5 and 6 at Central (these are full height).  One day I saw a loco and motor car trailer heading towards Roma St through 5 at very reduced speed.  I estimated about 2 cm clearance.  This is a wide wagon, so my guess is that the low platforms could be raised a bit without any real issues.  It that is truly not possible then do the hump thing, which at least facilitates wheel chair entry.

[ghostryder]

Platform Heights have been an issue brewing since the 1950s. Several platforms were rebuilt others were relocated (eg east ipswich originally curved Platforms near Chermside st) to meet the electrification standards of the 1950s scheme. Prior to 1976-78 platform heights restricted rollingstock that could be used on the Pinkenba line and on the south side. Trouble was you had three different Suburban sets doing the runs making improvements to the platforms a little difficult. Today you have lack of forsight unwillingess to listen to the travelling public budget restraints operation issues and poor planning and wider rollingstock.

cheers

scott  

[p858snake]

thats not even the point. There is no reason why the platforms cant be raised. Though becuase this is a gov owned company DDA doesnt apply

I thought they had to but because the situation, they were getting longer to do it. Or is QR just doing it to the best that they can?

I question why it's a problem.  It prevents problems with people putting their feet between the train and the platform.  Even high-height platforms still require a ramp for wheelchair access don't they?  They certainly do on CityRail, although an exception could be Brisbane Domestic Terminal with it's very narrow gap between the train and the platform.  It's a bit of a pain if you are on crutches, but it can be done without assistance.

I forget the full measurements but mum works with special needs children, one of whom is in a wheelchair, but most [wheel chairs] can apparently deal with height differences if they are less than about 4/5ish centimetres.

I've never been to indro station, but just looking at it on google maps so I can't tell the lengths that well, Does it have to be that long for a standard 6 car train? would it be possible to move it down slightly since it seems a bit straighter just a bit down and move the cross overs {slightly closer to/after} the bridge? (or buy out some land a bit further up and then move it upwards... (I know the government would never do that))

[somebody]

The argument that a platform can not be built to carriage floor height if built of a curve is spurious as a simple exercise in geometry clearly shows, at worst a horizontal gap of 15cm with a platform at carriage floor height is considerably safer than a 44cm vertical gap.

All I was trying to say here was that the curve would make the required gap between the platform and the carriage relatively large if the platform was at carriage floor height.  Perhaps this is partially compensated by QR's rollingstock having a fairing (or whatever it is called) at the base of the doors.

I think part of the answer for Indooroopilly would be to make the platform edge height track the actual height of the door base above the rail (Duh!).  It seems that it's basically a constant which doesn't allow for the change in superelevation which would apply along the length of Indro station.

[mufreight]

A platform when built should be and can be built to conform to railhead height allowing for superelevation with the platform coping adjusted to suit for clerance, so simple but here in the smart state we must lack the engineering abilities of others elsewhere or perhaps it might cost a little more and we are broke.
Wonder how that happened.

[ozbob]

Showing height of platform 3 Oxley (western end).  Lot better than Indooroopilly but still a significant step up.



Photograph R Dow 25th January 2010

[O_128]

Showing height of platform 3 Oxley (western end).  Lot better than Indooroopilly but still a significant step up.



Photograph R Dow 25th January 2010

They had the chance to build that at the right height and they didnt in that case it doesnt matter if its a 5c, step of a 40cm step

[mufreight]

Platform 3 at Oxley has a higher step up at the Brisbane (eastern) end than at the Ipswich (western) end.

[somebody]

we are broke.
Wonder how that happened.

Supposedly, the tunnels are being funded by the private sector and some contribution from BCC.  So in theory it shouldn't be causing the state govt to be broke.  I think it may be different in practice though.

[#Metro]

If there is one redeeming feature about tollways, it is the toll where once there was none!

[ozbob]

Platform 3 Oxley east.

SMU 273, not the best photo but shows the gap as a result of the curve at this end.  Height is a little bit more than the western end.



Photograph R Dow 27th January 2010

[mufreight]

This is a completely new platform and the gap is both vertival and horizontal, there was room for the platform to have been roughly one carriage length further to the west which would have made this platform almost straight for its entire length but this was designed by experts and built to their design despite the failings in the design having been brought to their attention by numerous qualified people.
So much for SEQIP.