New timetable - Ipswich and Rosewood lines

[ozbob]

Your suggestions please.

[ozbob]

Presently there are about 12 different patterns on the Ippy.

First thing reduce the variations.

Probably 3.

1.  Express CBD/Darra, stop Indooroopilly, express darra to redbank, express redbank to Ipswich, all stations to Rosewood. (Peak Only)

2.  Express CBD/Darra, stop Milton, Indooroopilly, Darra, all stations to Ipswich - major pattern for the Ippy.

3.  Darra (Richlands?)  to Shorncliffe sweepers, all stations. Back and forwards, back and forwards.

Some initial thoughts ...  

[stephenk]

See Richlands thread for my Ipswich Line suggestions.

Rosewood Line should have 30mins off-peak service.

[Arnz]

Rosewood Line should have 30mins off-peak service.

A recent government report (which is linked in the archives on this board somewhere) had the Rosewood line being proposed to be through-running and operating every 30 minutes.  It was through via extending the existing Ipswich service to Rosewood (and having trains turn back at Rosewood instead of Ipswich).

[somebody]

Rosewood Line should have 30mins off-peak service.

I'm interested why you say this.  It's got a tiny patronage.

I say 3 patterns on the Ipswich/Richlands lines, for these reasons:

1) There isn't enough track capacity on the single suburban track between Corinda & Darra for half the services to use it (at least not without fleeting/bunching of services)
2) No way would Richlands/Corinda/Sherwood/Graceville/Chelmer/Taringa/Auchenflower combined be more than 1/4 of demand on the Ipswich/Richlands lines
3) Ipswich is so far, that there should be services which miss a significant number of stations.  So long as the timetable isn't fat, the greater express trains from Ipswich should save more time in journey time than is lost in increased waiting time.  For arguments sake, let's define pattern A as express Roma St to Darra and Darra to Goodna, and pattern B Milton, Toowong, Indooroopilly, Oxley then all stations.  With these patterns each running at 5tph, each one has a 6 minute average waiting time, but the faster pattern saves 6 minutes on the slower one.  Which is more than the 3 minutes that would be saved from having all the trains stopping to Pattern B.  So long as more than a third of commuters on the Ipswich/Richlands lines get that benefit, you are ahead.  And Toowong/Indro commuters also have the all stoppers from Richlands, so the frequency at those stations is still high
4) Redbank isn't a very good turnback station, so you might as well go all the way to Ipswich

[ozbob]

Rosewood - contrary to most of the recent residential developments (eg. Springfield, North Lakes) the residential expansions going on west of Ipswich actually have decent public transport already in place.  There will be need for higher frequency on this line and to further encourage commuters local and long haul to use it.  Provision for power is underway, so in time will be an important line.

[#Metro]

There will be need for higher frequency on this line and to further encourage commuters local and long haul to use it.

Perhaps consider a single peak Rosewood to Ipswich (all stations) and then bullet to Roma St not stopping anywhere in between for the a.m. and p.m. peak only.

[Arnz]

I personally would think the ICE is better suited to Rosewood Line express operations (for both off-peak and peak) rather than the Sunshine Coast Line.  The spread out seating capacity of the ICE  would suit it for the thinly spread population west of Ipswich.  

Whilst the government report does suggest that Ipswich trains simply be extended to Rosewood, and having trains terminate and turn-back at Rosewood, I simply think its a bit too extreme for a all-stations.  

A Ipswich all-stations takes about 1 hour, adding 18 minutes onto that to Rosewood and it would be one of the "longest" all-station services around.

[mufreight]

The old problem of infrastructure again rears its ugly head, Rosewood and Wulkuraka have platforms that allow for the operation of six car sets and Translink and the Government have indicated little interest in commuters west of Ipswich.
A more logical move would be to lengthen all platforms to be able to take the STANDARD 6 car set and exten the electrification west, initially to Grandchester and with the construction of a new alignment and tunnel through the Little Liverpool Range to Helidon possibly in two stages the first being to Gatton.

[stephenk]

Rosewood Line should have 30mins off-peak service.

I'm interested why you say this.  It's got a tiny patronage.

I say 3 patterns on the Ipswich/Richlands lines, for these reasons:

1) There isn't enough track capacity on the single suburban track between Corinda & Darra for half the services to use it (at least not without fleeting/bunching of services)
2) No way would Richlands/Corinda/Sherwood/Graceville/Chelmer/Taringa/Auchenflower combined be more than 1/4 of demand on the Ipswich/Richlands lines
3) Ipswich is so far, that there should be services which miss a significant number of stations.  So long as the timetable isn't fat, the greater express trains from Ipswich should save more time in journey time than is lost in increased waiting time.  For arguments sake, let's define pattern A as express Roma St to Darra and Darra to Goodna, and pattern B Milton, Toowong, Indooroopilly, Oxley then all stations.  With these patterns each running at 5tph, each one has a 6 minute average waiting time, but the faster pattern saves 6 minutes on the slower one.  Which is more than the 3 minutes that would be saved from having all the trains stopping to Pattern B.  So long as more than a third of commuters on the Ipswich/Richlands lines get that benefit, you are ahead.  And Toowong/Indro commuters also have the all stoppers from Richlands, so the frequency at those stations is still high
4) Redbank isn't a very good turnback station, so you might as well go all the way to Ipswich

I think a 30mins Rosewood shuttle service is justifiable, especially with the development along the line. We are trying to make public transport attractive!

At a 5tph service pattern, Richlands services would be difficult to operate without a 4th electrified track from Corinda to Darra.

I only really suggested Redbank for shoulder-peak service turnback. I should have stated that, but didn't want to write a thesis.

[Mozz]

Maybe just maybe the 4th line electrification will be done ... fingers crossed

[somebody]

I think a 30mins Rosewood shuttle service is justifiable, especially with the development along the line. We are trying to make public transport attractive!

At a 5tph service pattern, Richlands services would be difficult to operate without a 4th electrified track from Corinda to Darra.

Well if Ipswich's off peak frequency stays at 30 minutes, and Rosewood's goes to 30 minutes, I think we should be getting rid of the shuttles.  The Newcastle line has many short platforms, and pax are simply told they must use the last 1/2/4/6/7 cars of the train for those platforms.  I think Sydney's South Coast line might have the same thing.  Why do CityTrain think that would be too hard for Brisbanites to work out?  Of course, 6 car platforms all the way to Rosewood would be nice.  A 30 minute Rosewood service rather than a 30 minute Ipswich service is attractive for simplicity reasons.  It's also much more convenient than the current transfer.

5tph to Richlands might be difficult on current timings, but not impossible.  I also wonder if fat could be squeezed out of the timetable to make it easier.  Seems pretty obvious that the inbound timetable is excessively fat at present between Darra and Corinda.

[somebody]

At a 5tph service pattern, Richlands services would be difficult to operate without a 4th electrified track from Corinda to Darra.

An alternative might be for the counter peak services to use the existing track at Oxley with the peak direction services on the new track.  At least it's a fall back for late running services.

Would the conflicting moves at Darra of such an option be a nightmare?

What about the conflicting moves east of Milton in peak?  Is there a case for all outbound AM services to use the suburbans and all inbound PM services to use the mains?  At least then there's only one conflicting junction at Darra.  Or would the configuration at Darra make this a bad idea?  Also, I guess that there's a conflicting move at Corinda in the AM with that way of doing things.

[stephenk]

At a 5tph service pattern, Richlands services would be difficult to operate without a 4th electrified track from Corinda to Darra.

An alternative might be for the counter peak services to use the existing track at Oxley with the peak direction services on the new track.  At least it's a fall back for late running services.

Would the conflicting moves at Darra of such an option be a nightmare?

What about the conflicting moves east of Milton in peak?  Is there a case for all outbound AM services to use the suburbans and all inbound PM services to use the mains?  At least then there's only one conflicting junction at Darra.  Or would the configuration at Darra make this a bad idea?  Also, I guess that there's a conflicting move at Corinda in the AM with that way of doing things.

If moves at Milton were timetabled to be parallel, then the conflict shouldn't be too much of a problem when things are running reasonably on time. However, as more conflicts that are added there will be increased constraints on timings at other junctions.

The counter-peak services needs to weighed up between decent frequency vs too many conflicting moves. However Ipswich/Roma St bound am counter-peak services can't really avoid a conflicting move somewhere.

[Cam]

All Ipswich services should be express in extended peak hours (6-9am & 3.30-6.30pm).

I agree that there should be 2 express stopping patterns in peak hours - both should skip at least 8 stations to provide a maximum 45 minute trip between Central & Ipswich. I propose that each of the following services to be run at least every 15 minutes in extended peak periods:

1) Express Roma St to Darra, Redbank then all stations to Rosewood - 13 stations skipped.

2) Outbound from Roma St with stops at major stations: Milton, Toowong, Indooroopilly, Oxley, Darra, Goodna, Redbank & all stations to Ipswich - skipping 8 stations.

3) All stations to Richlands.

4) All stations to Redbank.

 
I'm hoping that the 2011 timetable is a tiered timetable and express services to Ipswich are run from 6am-9pm seven days a week. Again these services should skip at least 8 stations to provide a maximum 45 minute trip between Central & Ipswich.

The upgrade of the Ipswich Motorway between Darra & Wacol has been completed which has significantly reduced road travel times between Brisbane & Goodna & it is now usually considerably faster driving a vehicle than catching a train between Brisbane & Goodna in peak periods. When the Dinmore to Goodna upgrade of the motorway is completed in 2012, it should be significantly faster to use the road than train to much of Ipswich unless there are frequently express services between Brisbane & Ipswich.

There is currently only 1 real express service to Ipswich in the afternoon peak & 2 in the morning peak period. Skipping 3 stations in an Ipswich service only provides a time saving of a couple of minutes on a 50+ minute trip.

[#Metro]

The upgrade of the Ipswich Motorway between Darra & Wacol has been completed which has significantly reduced road travel times between Brisbane & Goodna & it is now usually considerably faster driving a vehicle than catching a train between Brisbane & Goodna in peak periods. When the Dinmore to Goodna upgrade of the motorway is completed in 2012, it should be significantly faster to use the road than train to much of Ipswich unless there are frequently express services between Brisbane & Ipswich.

Oh dear. It is going to pull passengers off the train and into cars, which will then fill up the motorway to take up that time saving, until it reaches a congestion level which makes the time saving = 0, which is a point that balances the time between rail and car at peak hour.

[somebody]

Hi Cam,
That's almost exactly my suggested operating pattern.  However, I do not see the need for the skip stop pattern.

The Milton, Toowong, Indro, Oxley, all to Ipswich should be the all day pattern at 4tph.

Oh dear. It is going to pull passengers off the train and into cars, which will then fill up the motorway to take up that time saving, until it reaches a congestion level which makes the time saving = 0, which is a point that balances the time between rail and car at peak hour.

Yes.  Let's see if we can make PT more attractive.

[Cam]

Hi Cam,
That's almost exactly my suggested operating pattern.  However, I do not see the need for the skip stop pattern.

The Milton, Toowong, Indro, Oxley, all to Ipswich should be the all day pattern at 4tph.

I believe that Milton, Toowong & Indooroopilly shouldn't miss out on express services altogether in peak periods. I think that the all stations services to Richlands should be every 10 minutes in peak periods - otherwise commuters may drive to Darra to gain a far better frequency. The proposal I made above would have Ipswich Line services departing Central every 3 or 4 minutes in peak periods.

[david]

All Ipswich services should be express in extended peak hours (6-9am & 3.30-6.30pm).

I still think that there is grounds to at least have an all-stations to Ipswich every 30 minutes at least during peak. This caters for those people who don't fit the current typical travel patterns. Maybe a simple extension of every second Redbank service to Ipswich?

[somebody]

I still think that there is grounds to at least have an all-stations to Ipswich every 30 minutes at least during peak. This caters for those people who don't fit the current typical travel patterns. Maybe a simple extension of every second Redbank service to Ipswich?

By that logic, you should have Airport-Cleveland/Beenleigh trains, Cleveland-Ferny Grove etc.  Not everyone can have a single seat journey.

[#Metro]

Another possibility not canvassed in this thread is 4TPH RCH, 2 part expresses IPS and 2 Darra <-> IPS

I've had more thought about this. Here is what I think:

2 tph to Richlands, all stops (you could add 2tph shuttle later if you wanted to)
2 tph to Ipswich, all stops
2 tph to Rosewood, EXPRESS

The timetable would be co-ordinated such that a Richlands shuttle connects with an Ipswich all stopper (to avoid double transfer).
This makes sense as we could eliminate the transfer penalty and waiting time for Rosewood commuters, and give them an express trip
(doubtful we will ever see 4tph out at Rosewood, and the speed would make sense here).

This way we get 4tph to Ipswich, save time, get our express service as well and have half hourly service to Rosewood...

[Gazza]

Im just wondering if such a mix of stopping patterns is getting a bit convoluted :s

[somebody]

Im just wondering if such a mix of stopping patterns is getting a bit convoluted :s

It's a bit Cityrail-esque.

Heading inbound, when the train arrives on Darra #2 from Richlands, another train needs to be arriving on Darra #4 from Rosewood, running express.

It is similar outbound - the Rosewood bound train needs to arrive at Darra simultaneously as the Richlands bound train to prevent a stagger.  These issues mean that one of the tracks between Corinda and Darra needs to be used in two directions.

All these issues are where I strongly believe we need to push for 4tph RCH + IPS express then: 5th track around Milton + increase the IPS.

[ozbob]

A lot of people in certain circles are no doubt about now thinking if only, if only the UP sub had been electrified all the way through, and the new platform one constructed at Oxley, as a number of interested parties suggested.  A skirmish we lost, but I am damn proud we had a go.  We were right ... 

It is not too late ...  the good thing about a mistake is that often it can be corrected!

[#Metro]

So, hmm... are we closer to some kind of workable solution that doesn't require a 5th rail track down Milton Road (lol!)?

[ozbob]

Fix the UP sub between Darra and Corinda.  This gets rid of the Pannard 'criss-cross' and associated conflicts. Eventually there will be trains pinging out of Springfield every 15 minutes I reckon.

Build the flyover at Corinda to take freight to and from the mains onto the Tennyson line.

Whammo, 4 TPH RCH and 4TPH IPS  and no conflicts at Darra West or Corinda for the non-pass trains.

The IPS trains all express CBD <-> Darra.

[somebody]

Fix the UP sub between Darra and Corinda.  This gets rid of the Pannard 'criss-cross' and associated conflicts. Eventually there will be trains pinging out of Springfield every 15 minutes I reckon.

Build the flyover at Corinda to take freight to and from the mains onto the Tennyson line.

Whammo, 4 TPH RCH and 4TPH IPS  and no conflicts at Darra West or Corinda for the non-pass trains.

The IPS trains all express CBD <-> Darra.

Hmm, that seems an interesting idea.  Of course, freight can already run Tennyson->Ipswich without conflicts although it does merge with the pax trains from Darra.  Ipswich->Tennyson is where there is still a problem.  Did the proposed flyover solve all the problems?  If it needs to take freight in both directions to/from the mains, there would need to be two flyovers or there is still a conflicting move between the IPS trains on the up main (which still apply in peak).  Similarly, there is a conflicting move Darra west with Ipswich bound freight conflicting with inbound pax, even with the flyovers you are recommending.

An alternative would be to have the flyover connect the down main to Tennyson.

So, hmm... are we closer to some kind of workable solution that doesn't require a 5th rail track down Milton Road (lol!)?

I don't see how any of what is posted above is a solution to desiring or even requiring that.

[Set in train]

Whammo, 4 TPH RCH and 4TPH IPS  and no conflicts at Darra West or Corinda for the non-pass trains.

The IPS trains all express CBD <-> Darra.

Wow, 8 TPH, can we handle that in Qld? 

[ozbob]

@simon

If up freight goes on the mains at Corinda it stays on the mains.  Increasingly down freight is staying on the mains and crossing over at Corinda.  The original plan was for the both up and down mains at Corinda to be connected via flyover to the equivalent Tennyson lines. Now that they have the half baked UP sub, a single flyover from the main down and up and over would be a big help.  If this was to eventuate there would no crossing onto the up sub at Darra West and running down against the up pass trains on the UP sub at Darra.  An important point as UP train frequency on the UP sub increases.   They can and do sometimes run down on the down sub, but the sub down from Corinda - Oxley - Pannard is the road for the UP passes.  Confusing when something is half baked.

But I doubt if this would happen, fly overs etc. let alone 8 pass TPH around the clock,  I am just sitting here in my corner bubbling away ... lol

[#Metro]

But I doubt if this would happen, fly overs etc. let alone 8 pass TPH around the clock,  I am just sitting here in my corner bubbling away ... lol

OMG! Actual services that are USEFUL!! Did someone in the bueaucracy get a lobotomy?

[somebody]

If up freight goes on the mains at Corinda it stays on the mains.  

Why do that?  It can easily use the up sub!  There aren't still issues with drivers not being qualified for the path from Tennyson to the up sub, surely!

If this was to eventuate there would no crossing onto the up sub at Darra West and running down against the up pass trains on the UP sub at Darra.  An important point as UP train frequency on the UP sub increases.  

Are you sure it is that important?  I'd think a freight could easily slot in the 10 minute gap or so through Darra #1 in the 8tph world.  Without the 5th track around Milton in the Sherwood bound direction you need to fit in in such a gap in two directions, not one, which is HEAPS harder.

I think you are focussing in the wrong area here.  Perhaps I am wrong.

[ozbob]

Don't forget I have a house at Darra that overlooks the western line.  For a 'freight' line, the UP sub I reckon sees less freight than the mains.

Darra West down freight to get on the UP sub involves a cross from the main down to the main up then points onto the down sub and then points to up sub. Stops everything.  That is why increasingly the freighters are coming straight through on the main down.

I am not suggesting that something doesn't have to done at Milton etc. but just pointing out that Darra West etc. will need some sorting as well.

[ozbob]

Quote from: ozbob on Today at 01:49:47 PM
If up freight goes on the mains at Corinda it stays on the mains.  
Why do that?  It can easily use the up sub!  There aren't still issues with drivers not being qualified for the path from Tennyson to the up sub, surely!

Because at times it is a better option for control to stop further delays on approach to Darra.  Not unusual to see coal etc. parked before Pannard on the UP sub waiting for a pass to run ahead through Darra one.  So if they can they will bring it across at Corinda to run straight through on the main up.  It just depends on the trains around at the time.  Very unpredictable.

Oxley is a good spot to watch the variations.

[somebody]

For a 'freight' line, the UP sub I reckon sees less freight than the mains.

Then they are managing it wrong, surely!  I say don't change the tracks because the management is wrong.

Darra West down freight to get on the UP sub involves a cross from the main down to the main up then points onto the down sub and then points to up sub. Stops everything.  That is why increasingly the freighters are coming straight through on the main down.

There is also the option of going under the Richlands line isn't there?  Or is that not signalled.  But I am assuming that option will eventually be restricted in its use if there is 8/hour pax trains through Darra #1.

What I am proposing has a lower cost - it doesn't need the "freight line" passengerised and only requires a one track flyover/under rather than two track.

I am not suggesting that something doesn't have to done at Milton etc. but just pointing out that Darra West etc. will need some sorting as well.

I would suggest that the issues here can be managed.  They are issues for freight trains only and if they pay to sort out, that should come from the freight budget.  However the lack of a 5th track at Milton is a real problem and pretty much prevents the efficient movement of freight through the network being combined with >>> pax trains.

[ozbob]

The UP sub is the line that goes underneath the branch (the 'loop' line).  

[ozbob]

Just at Darra and a down coalie just came through on the UP sub.  Pushed UP Ippy across to platform 2 from 1 with just over 1 minute notice, lots of scurrying pax.

[somebody]

The UP sub is the line that goes underneath the branch (the 'loop' line).  

I understand that.

Just at Darra and a down coalie just came through on the UP sub.  Pushed UP Ippy across to platform 2 from 1 with just over 1 minute notice, lots of scurrying pax.

Which goes to show the "freight priority" mentality.

[ozbob]

Just at Darra and a down coalie just came through on the UP sub.  Pushed UP Ippy across to platform 2 from 1 with just over 1 minute notice, lots of scurrying pax.

Here is the down coalie ..

QRN coal train (down) passing through Darra platform one.
21 Nov 2011

Photograph R Dow 21st November 2011

[Cam]

My main concerns about the introduction in off peak periods of 4tph all stations to Ipswich are:

1) It may be many years before express services are ever seen off peak to Ipswich or Rosewood because such services may be given very low priority as the line is seen to have a "good" off peak service of 4tph.

2) Shuttle services could be used instead of through services to Richlands/Springfield. This is the current unsatisfactory situation for most services to/from Rosewood with typically a 11 minute wait inbound & a 9 minute wait outbound at Ipswich.

3) The lack of express services will keep most off peak commuters in their cars. It's not so much the additional 8 minutes or so extra travel time of the all stations services compared to the current express services. Rather, it's the 23/29 stops along the way that seems to make the journey even longer than it is to/from Ipswich/Rosewood. Potential off peak users from the Ipswich area know that they can be most of the way to their destination using the Ipswich Motorway &/or Centenary Highway if they drive rather than being a few stations along the track from their origin if they take the train.

[Golliwog]

http://translink.com.au/travel-information/service-updates/bulletin/1323054368
Minor changes to train services from 12 December

From Monday 12 December, there will be minor changes to some train services on the Rosewood, Ipswich, and Gympie North lines:

    5.05am Rosewood to Ipswich train will depart Rosewood station three minutes earlier at 5.02 am (arriving at Ipswich at 5.23am), to provide a better connection to the 5.28am Ipswich to City train
    5.56am Gympie North to Roma Street train will depart Fortitude Valley station five minutes earlier at 8.37am, to provide better connections at Central and Roma Street stations
    7.52am Petrie to Richlands train will depart Central station five minutes earlier at 8.38am, reducing the wait time at Central to three minutes.

New timetables will be available soon.

We appreciate your patience.