Brisbane Underground Rail Loop (BURL)

[#Metro]

Should there be a rail loop for the CBD and surrounds (Valley/Newstead)?

[#Metro]

http://blogs.brisbanetimes.com.au/yoursay/archives/2008/06/innercity_rail.html
http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermail/pineapplepolitics/index.php/couriermail/comments/map_of_brisbanes_underground_rail_loop/

[#Metro]

And before anyone says "that's crazy" just remember that the CBD is perfectly encircled by roads and road tunnels on all sides... Clem 7, Riverside Expressway, Airport Link, and the ICB.

[Sunbus610]

If an underground rail system (for Brisbane) similar to this map ever did become a reality >>>> <<<< but could you imagine the timeframe and cost involved in boring out all of those tunnels......??

[O_128]

And before anyone says "that's crazy" just remember that the CBD is perfectly encircled by roads and road tunnels on all sides... Clem 7, Riverside Expressway, Airport Link, and the ICB.

Though probably political suicide for a politician to go through with it. And by rail costs it would probably cost 50 billion

[O_128]

And i wouldnt give churchie its own station lol

[#Metro]

How much did the 3 or 4 bypasses cost (incl Nth Link as well?)? Probably more than 50 billion so far.


We don't need 3 circles. We could probably refine the circles down to one circle that captures only the most essential stations.
Which stations are those?

And also, for freight, freight trains should dive under the City in dedicated tunnels before or at Roma Street to pop out at Mayne or North of the CBD.

[#Metro]

Alternatively, if you don't like trains it could always be done in bus, metro or light rail.

[O_128]

Alternatively, if you don't like trains it could always be done in bus, metro or light rail.

I think this would work well as a metro. Just include the fairfield-bowen hills tunnel for suburbans

[#Metro]

Sydney (High Speed) -->   1920s/30s

Melbourne (a little slower) -->   1960s/1970s

Brisbane ("We are still planning it.. er, aren't we guys? Watch this powerpoint instead) -->


Estimated time of completion: year 3000

[#Metro]

Any ideas on which stations should be cut/stay?

[mufreight]

Cut stations, are you kidding the object of the exercise with public transport is to provide a passenger friendly service, eliminating stations does not encourage patronage.

[O_128]

I would just build it like that. It means practically everyone living withing 5km of the CBD is within walking distance to a station. As soon as the airport link is done just start digging. Where would you put stabling though?

[cartoonbirdhaus]

It means practically everyone living withing 5km of the CBD is within walking distance to a station.

Or you might build something like this. It was loosely inspired by the Vienna U-Bahn. Each line is actually going somewhere, whilst crossing other lines at several points to create a network effect (see the PDF).

Yes, I'm in foamer mode tonight.

[#Metro]

Cut stations, are you kidding the object of the exercise with public transport is to provide a passenger friendly service, eliminating stations does not encourage patronage.

Hi Mufreight.
That diagram has four circles! Melbourne and Sydney have one circle only- the city loop.
Insisting on all four circles may mean that a grand total of zero circles are built- due to sheer expense- the absolute worst outcome of them all.

Better to have one circle with the essentials on it than none at all!

Otherwise, which should be built first...

[#Metro]

Or you might build something like this. Each line is actually going somewhere, whilst crossing other lines at several points to create a network effect (see the PDF).

This is a fantastic proposal. Why don't you mail it off to the BCC? They are looking into metro plans and possible routes.

[ozbob]

Excellent thread!

Check out this page at Railway Gazette --> http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/urban-rail.html

There is a global revolution underway, and we can be part of it!

[ozbob]

This is an interesting read ..  we could substitute Melbourne with Brisbane ..

From the Melbourne Age  click here!

A clean, green rail Metro... Melbourne? Sorry, try Delhi

A clean, green rail Metro... Melbourne? Sorry, try Delhi

Matt Wade, New Delhi
March 29, 2008

AS MELBOURNE tinkers with its largely pre-World War II public transport system and puts up with congested roads, commuters in the Indian capital, New Delhi, are revelling in a state-of-the-art Metro.

Although India's average income is only about one tenth Australia's, its rapidly growing cities are pouring money into new rail networks.

Delhi had no metropolitan rail system before part of its new Metro was opened in 2002. Now, authorities expect that, by 2020, it will be bigger than London's underground.

The rail system has changed the lives of commuters such as Vimal Chandra, a 55-year-old public servant. Mr Chandra used to spend 2½ hours on crowded buses getting to work. That has been cut to just over an hour.

"If you have ever used Delhi buses, you know how good the Metro is," he said. "It has made a big difference to the city and, at my age, it has come as a great relief."

Trains arrive every four minutes during peak times. The clean, air-conditioned carriages are a major attraction given Delhi's extreme summer heat. Every passenger is searched before entering a station and security staff patrol platforms and carriages.

Accounting student Sunil Kumar Maurya, 22, said it had become Delhi's "lifeline". "It costs more than the bus, but it has halved my commuting time. This city could not survive without it now."

At least nine Indian cities are building or planning rail metros including the booming IT centres of Bengaluru (formerly Bangalore) and Hyderabad.

The contrast with Australia's big cities is stark.

"Since the Second World War there has been very little expansion of urban public transport systems in Australia and the quality has declined," said Graham Currie, Professor of Public Transport at Monash University's Institute of Transport Studies.

"The answer for both Australian cities and Indian cities is to invest in mass transit systems."

And there are striking differences between Delhi's Metro and the fashions shaping the development of public transport in Australia. The Delhi Metro is not privately owned and funded like many public transport projects proposed in Australia. Delhi Metro Rail Corporation, the company building and operating the system, is a joint-venture by the Indian Government and the Delhi State Government.

Unlike Australia's Federal Government, which has left urban transport to the states, India's national Government has taken a big role in Delhi's rail project.

Delhi's population has ballooned from 5.7 million in 1981 to around 17 million and is projected to reach 19 million by 2011. Its roads are crammed with more than 5 million vehicles — more than in Mumbai, Kolkata and Chennai combined.

The Delhi Metro will be completed over the next 20 years. The first phase was finished in late 2005, ahead of schedule and below budget at a cost of $2.5 billion. It has three interconnecting lines, serviced by 59 stations, 13 of which are underground.

One line runs under old Delhi, which has buildings from the 17th century Mughal empire. At a station near Delhi's famous Red Fort, passengers emerge from spacious underground platforms into alleys crammed with small traders that are a hallmark of the old city.

This second phase is scheduled to open before Delhi hosts the 2010 Commonwealth Games.

"By 2010 the Delhi Metro will already rank among the largest metros in the world," said a spokesman for Delhi Metro Rail Corporation, Anuj Dayal.

The system turned an operational profit from the first day. What's more, the Delhi Metro's exceptional green credentials were underscored in January when it became the world's first rail project to be registered by the United Nations under the Clean Development Mechanism.

As a result, the Metro can claim carbon credits worth more than $3 million a year for the next 10 years, thanks to an energy saving mechanism in the braking system of its rolling stock. The company is also seeking carbon credits for reducing emissions by shifting commuters from buses and cars to rail.

"The 650,000 passengers we carry each day means 40,000 less vehicles on Delhi roads," Mr Dayal said.

The unassuming 72-year-old railway engineer who heads Delhi Metro, Elattuvalapil Sreedharan, has become a national hero. He was recently named Indian of the Year by the CNN-IBN news channel for achieving "the near-impossible, for breaking through bureaucratic red tape and defying the naysayers of modern infrastructure-building".

Indeed, it's hard to find anyone who has a bad word to say about it.

This story was found at: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2008/03/28/1206207412949.html

"The answer for both Australian cities and Indian cities is to invest in mass transit systems."

Indeed!

[#Metro]

Maybe Bombay Express might actually be a good designation in the future...
Perhaps over there they will have a full train/late train/time gap and say "Oh, its just like the Brisbane Express!".

Not everything can be transferred over. This article didn't explore the details.

* Delhi has a population that is 7x more than Brisbane.
* The density of Dehli is 11,463 persons/km2. Brisbane's is 918/km2
There are other cases which fit this pattern: Transmilenio in Bogota and MTR in Hong Kong.
Both pay for themselves, as the Delhi one is also doing. The key is density and TODs.

In Australia we are much wealthier which means that we can afford to buy (three) cars (closer to the Hong Kong model) but our cities are of a much lower density (this is where we come unstuck). Labour in Dehli would also be cheaper.

The first phase was finished in late 2005, ahead of schedule and below budget at a cost of $2.5 billion.

Other things not possible in Australia:
* Below budget? Is that even possible here?
* On time? Impossible for Australia.
* Two levels of government talking to each other and forming a company to pursue a common goal?
We can't even get TL, the minister and the local council to talk to each other.

[ozbob]

Maybe Bombay Express might actually be a good designation in the future...
Perhaps over there they will have a full train/late train/time gap and say "Oh, its just like the Brisbane Express!".

But hopefully the community can ensure a better outcome than what we appear to be heading for ...

[stephenk]

1 CBD loop may just about be justifiable, but 3, and a station at Churchie are laughable ideas. Another one to file in "trainspotter fantasies" along with the Maglev to Doomben.

Brisbane needs more cross-city rail capacity connecting with the existing suburban rail lines before we even think of looping metros.

[#Metro]

Yes, but how doesn't a metro fit the description of "more cross city rail capacity"?
The idea does need refinement. Germany has S-Bahn and U-Bahn. The existence of both a metro and long distance rail doesn't seem to conflict there.

[mufreight]

Stephenk, you have it right with your comment, a far more realistic and practical approach than many, aspiration is good but unfortunately all too frequently falls far short of what is practical affordable reality

1 CBD loop may just about be justifiable, but 3, and a station at Churchie are laughable ideas. Another one to file in "trainspotter fantasies" along with the Maglev to Doomben.

Brisbane needs more cross-city rail capacity connecting with the existing suburban rail lines before we even think of looping metros.

[#Metro]

I've done an image trawl for Brisbane Metros.

There are

1. The BURL (circular one, 4 circles)
2. The BCC inner city one (see below)
3. Something I will call SEQConnect as it treats Ipswich and Mt Gravatt as hubs (see below). It is more of a hybrid between a metro and the suburban rail network we have now. [Skyscraper City)

Click on the thumbnail to enlarge

The BURL, Courier Mail


BCC Proposal


SEQ Connect Proposal

[stephenk]

Yes, but how doesn't a metro fit the description of "more cross city rail capacity"?
The idea does need refinement. Germany has S-Bahn and U-Bahn. The existence of both a metro and long distance rail doesn't seem to conflict there.

For starters, the S-bahn is a suburban rail system, not a long distance rail. In fact as it's fully segregated from all other rail traffic, it could be classed as a metro. Berlin is a geographically smaller city than Brisbane, with a geographically larger central employment area, and considerably higher suburban population density.

The majority of public transport journeys in Brisbane are people commuting from the suburbs to the CBD. An inner city metro system will thus provide little overall benefit compared to increasing capacity of the existing suburban rail system with new tunnels under the city centre. An increase in suburban rail capacity will allow for a "metro like" rail service from the suburbs to the CBD. A central area metro as you have proposed, will not increase the much needed rail capacity from suburbs into the CBD. With limited funding available, a central area metro is not financially justifiable.

[#Metro]

An increase in suburban rail capacity will allow for a "metro like" rail service from the suburbs to the CBD. A central area metro as you have proposed, will not increase the much needed rail capacity from suburbs into the CBD.

Hmm. I tend to agree Stephen K. The immediate inner city and suburbs are already well served by Public Transport (generally). Though I think some more distribution around the CBD would be worthwhile- there are large flows of foot traffic going east along George St towards QUT in the morning, for example. Central isn't really centrally located either. And the free loop bus doesn't really cut it IMHO.

Sydney has a hybrid rail system which is metro-like in the inner city and more suburban (from Wiki)

Sydney, the largest city in Australia, has an extensive network of passenger and freight railways. The passenger network is a hybrid metro-suburban railway with a central underground core running at metro style frequencies, which branches out into a suburban commuter type network. The system also carries freight, and there is a separate network of freight lines, some of which are disused.

[Mozz]

I would suggest a "huge" amount of pedestrian traffic along george street in both ways to and from the Qld University of Technology with peaks in the morning and afternoon (from a lay persons perspective I would suggest may 5000 - 10,000 pedestrian movements a day to and along this corridor.

[stephenk]

I would suggest a "huge" amount of pedestrian traffic along george street in both ways to and from the Qld University of Technology with peaks in the morning and afternoon (from a lay persons perspective I would suggest may 5000 - 10,000 pedestrian movements a day to and along this corridor.

5-10,000 movements/day does not justify a metro. Maybe a frequent bus or surface light rail.  

Anyway, the 1st Cross City Rail tunnel should serve the Gardens Point area.

[Mozz]

Some sort of public transport alternative may see an increase in the usage ... as opposed to foot traffic to maybe 10,000 which would be a positive

[#Metro]

Just weighing up the posts. I'm feeling a bit uncertain.

Will there be adequate demand? On one hand it seems like the area is well served by transport as is.
The outer areas really need attention (suburbs-city).

On the other hand:
* There is significant foot traffic already (outside Central, Riverside, Valley, towards QUT)
* The city is densest part of Brisbane.
* 199 runs every 5 minutes and is the busiest despite being possibly the shortest BUZ route there is and only serving 3 suburbs immediately next to the city.
* The CityCat is well used as is the Goodwill bridge.
* There seems to be enough demand to justify CityGliders in the area as well.

What do others think? Maybe the missing line is along the Eastern side of the CBD. Heavy rail or otherwise.

[longboi]

Guys, check this out:

http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/BCC:BASE::pc=PC_5841

A metro like what has been proposed complements this plan perfectly and encourages high-density development within the 5km city area. Eventually this whole area will be a series of neighbourhoods which make up the 'City'.

[#Metro]

An underground rail loop in the city is possible.
It might not be the best option when compared against other alternatives.

More info later...

[somebody]

Inner city rail service Park Rd-Bowen Hills is not that great off peak, and pretty bad after 10pm Mon-Thu.  It would (obviously) be significantly better if the inner Cleveland and inner Beenleigh lines had better service.

[longboi]

Inner city rail service Park Rd-Bowen Hills is not that great off peak, and pretty bad after 10pm Mon-Thu.  It would (obviously) be significantly better if the inner Cleveland and inner Beenleigh lines had better service.

This is something separate to the Citytrain network. The metro proposal is for a completely seaparate, high-frequency underground rail network.

[stephenk]

Inner city rail service Park Rd-Bowen Hills is not that great off peak, and pretty bad after 10pm Mon-Thu.  It would (obviously) be significantly better if the inner Cleveland and inner Beenleigh lines had better service.

This is something separate to the Citytrain network. The metro proposal is for a completely seaparate, high-frequency underground rail network.

Running more frequent services on the CityTrain network will result in a metro like frequency through the core sections.

[#Metro]

Inner City Rail Capacity Study here
http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/Home/Projects_and_initiatives/Projects/Cross_river_rail/Publications_cross_river_rail

Inner City Rail Capacity Summary here
http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/Home/Projects_and_initiatives/Projects/Inner_City_Rail_Capacity_Study/

I'm not sure that I'm happy with the alignment. In principle support for a Wooloongabba-CBD and West End-CBD link, but the alignment and placement of stations is what I'm not sure about. It also Depends on whether a metro will eventuate or not (can't have too many tunnels at the same level).

There also seems to be a duplication of the role of the Exhibition line (and a 2nd Exhibition Station). Why re-invent the wheel? Why can't they just use the Exhibition line we have now?

[O_128]

Its probably easier to build a whole new exhibition line than upgrade the current one lol. Also it is a must that UQ gets a station

[longboi]

Inner city rail service Park Rd-Bowen Hills is not that great off peak, and pretty bad after 10pm Mon-Thu.  It would (obviously) be significantly better if the inner Cleveland and inner Beenleigh lines had better service.

This is something separate to the Citytrain network. The metro proposal is for a completely seaparate, high-frequency underground rail network.

Running more frequent services on the CityTrain network will result in a metro like frequency through the core sections.

Yes, that's right but it is still a suburban commuter railway - look at the spacing of the proposed stations. Not that I have anything against the Inner City Rail Capacity Upgrade, however the proposed metro project is something entirely different being planned after the rail upgrades.

[stephenk]

There also seems to be a duplication of the role of the Exhibition line (and a 2nd Exhibition Station). Why re-invent the wheel? Why can't they just use the Exhibition line we have now?

I don't wish to cause offence, but that comment shows that you have little understanding of rail operations.

IIRC the reasons for not using part of the existing Exhibition Line are:-
1)There is not enough track capacity for the extra services on the Exhibition Line. It is already a busy line!
2)Due to the alignment, it is more cost effective to duplicate part of the line with a tunnel than to add extra tracks and flyovers/unders near Spring Hill and around Bowen Hills.
3)The line would have restrictive gradients to be able to rise to the surface near Spring Hill.

[somebody]

Isn't the main problem with the Exhibition station no demand?  They seem to be able to run services there during the Ekka.  I presume this is largely making services stop there that would run through there anyway.

I think a large part of the problem is the targetted gradients and depth, which IMO are completely unreasonable, although the business of the Exhibition line could be a real issue.

Also it is a must that UQ gets a station

Well it already has the Eleanor Schonnel (sp?) bridge.  This really provides better service than rail would to most people.  Why's it need 2 solutions to the same problem?