Centenary Line

[#Metro]

Ok, seperate (new) proposal.
The Centenary Line
Indooroopilly
(Indooroopilly Shopping Centre)
Fig Tree Pocket North
Kenmore
Jindalee
Mt Ommanney
Jamboree Heights
Middle Park
Riverhills
(Bridge Crossing)
Bellbowrie
Moggill

[stephenk]

I think you are in dreamland again tramtrain.

Exactly where would you put the alignment of this line, without having to demolish hundreds of properties?

[mufreight]

A somewhat convoluted route that because of the length would be slow point to point and as a consequence carry few passengers. also as proposed the line would need two cross river bridges not one.

[#Metro]

Exactly where would you put the alignment of this line, without having to demolish hundreds of properties?

I'm not aware of many (or any?) major infrastructure projects that didn't require at least somebody's house to be demolished or re-located.

If it runs in low density areas then there isn't the demand for the service,
If it runs in high density areas then you can't do it because peoples homes are there.
Looks like zero options exist where someone is made better off and no-body is worse off.

An entire suburb was demolished to make way for Brisbane Airport,
Eastern Busway will require more demolitions, Airport Link....

Oh well, do you have any suggestions?

[#Metro]

This isn't the first time the idea or a similar one has been floated for a Western Corridor either.
http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=91.0

As someone who lived in Bellbowrie, I have seen how bad the road system is already, even before some of the new estates have been completed, and I have listened with dread to some of the road and bridge options being proposed.  I believe that an excellent opportunity exists to use rail (or, at least, public transport) to make a major impact in that region.

[david]

I think the proposal would be better (and cheaper) as a busway proposal. Heavy rail through the area is unneccessary, not only due to relatively close proximity of the Centenary suburbs to Darra Station, but also due to the unfortunate car-loving nature of many of the residents in the suburbs mentioned.

However, a bus-only bridge would be excellent to link Bellbowrie to Riverhills to allow easy access of Bellbowrie residents to Darra station. 

[#Metro]

Thanks for your suggestion David.
Yes, busway sounds like a good possibility too. And a green bridge, even better.
Hills are not a problem, and it is probably a bit cheaper...

Good idea!

[longboi]

The Centenary suburbs aren't exactly big enough trip generators for heavy rail and they are pretty well serviced by buses already.

The only thing I can suggest is merging the 450, 453 and 454 routes into one BUZ and likewise with the prepaid routes, along with improvements to Darra station feeder services.

[#Metro]

450 Centenary BUZ -->http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3231.0

[stephenk]

Exactly where would you put the alignment of this line, without having to demolish hundreds of properties?

I'm not aware of many (or any?) major infrastructure projects that didn't require at least somebody's house to be demolished or re-located.

If it runs in low density areas then there isn't the demand for the service,
If it runs in high density areas then you can't do it because peoples homes are there.
Looks like zero options exist where someone is made better off and no-body is worse off.

An entire suburb was demolished to make way for Brisbane Airport,
Eastern Busway will require more demolitions, Airport Link....

Oh well, do you have any suggestions?

More frequent buses. Much more cost effective.

[O_128]

Exactly where would you put the alignment of this line, without having to demolish hundreds of properties?

If it was a freeway it would go ahead.

[#Metro]

I'm just thinking- random thought- would a ferry service like the CityCat be viable out there?
Or are the river banks too steep?

[somebody]

I'm just thinking- random thought- would a ferry service like the CityCat be viable out there?
Or are the river banks too steep?

BCC believe that the river is not suitable for any extensions to the ferry service.  Besides, the river is pretty winding, it wouldn't exactly be fast if it were longer.

The only thing I can suggest is merging the 450, 453 and 454 routes into one BUZ and likewise with the prepaid routes, along with improvements to Darra station feeder services.

You mean abolish the 453 & 454 and just make the 450 a BUZ?  Might not be too popular with those on the 454 route beyond Mt Ommanney shops.  Very popular in Jindalee.  This has been proposed before, one suggestion was to also BUZ the 460 and co-ordinate the timetable so that 454 people could change at Mt Ommaney for a faster service.  I'm not completely convinced. 

I am convinced that a half-hourly 450 would be an improvement on an hourly 454 which applies after about 7pm weeknights though.

I think the proposal would be better (and cheaper) as a busway proposal. Heavy rail through the area is unneccessary, not only due to relatively close proximity of the Centenary suburbs to Darra Station, but also due to the unfortunate car-loving nature of many of the residents in the suburbs mentioned.

However, a bus-only bridge would be excellent to link Bellbowrie to Riverhills to allow easy access of Bellbowrie residents to Darra station. 

Yeah, but the priority is the City-Indooroopilly part first.  Then probably extensions to Kenmore.

[#Metro]

BCC believe that the river is not suitable for any extensions to the ferry service.  Besides, the river is pretty winding, it wouldn't exactly be fast if it were longer.

I meant around the Suburbs of Moggill, Bellbowrie connect with Riverhills, Westlake etc.
It seems good enough for Moggill ferry...

You mean abolish the 453 & 454 and just make the 450 a BUZ?  Might not be too popular with those on the 454 route beyond Mt Ommanney shops.  Very popular in Jindalee.  This has been proposed before, one suggestion was to also BUZ the 460 and co-ordinate the timetable so that 454 people could change at Mt Ommaney for a faster service.  I'm not completely convinced.

I am convinced that a half-hourly 450 would be an improvement on an hourly 454 which applies after about 7pm weeknights though.

Improved transport in this general area and also between centres in this area has merit IMHO; Just seems like the proposals are going to be watered down too much so as not to be much improvement from the status quo.

There seems to be enough demand to Northern Link and Goodna bypass...

[longboi]

The only thing I can suggest is merging the 450, 453 and 454 routes into one BUZ and likewise with the prepaid routes, along with improvements to Darra station feeder services.

You mean abolish the 453 & 454 and just make the 450 a BUZ?  Might not be too popular with those on the 454 route beyond Mt Ommanney shops.  Very popular in Jindalee.  This has been proposed before, one suggestion was to also BUZ the 460 and co-ordinate the timetable so that 454 people could change at Mt Ommaney for a faster service.  I'm not completely convinced. 

I am convinced that a half-hourly 450 would be an improvement on an hourly 454 which applies after about 7pm weeknights though.

What about something similar to Browns Plains and have two BUZ routes? One could be the 450 and the other would be 454 which would exit the Centenary at Goggs Rd and travel via Sinnamon Park, 17 Mile Rocks, Mt Ommaney (interchange with 450 BUZ) and then continue on to Darra.

[STB]

The Centenary suburbs aren't exactly big enough trip generators for heavy rail and they are pretty well serviced by buses already.

The only thing I can suggest is merging the 450, 453 and 454 routes into one BUZ and likewise with the prepaid routes, along with improvements to Darra station feeder services.

I have heard quite reliably that that indeed was looked at and recommended some years ago (about 3 to 4 years ago I think) in a formal report to TransLink, ie: a 450 BUZ with modifications to the other routes and expresses in the area.

[somebody]

The only thing I can suggest is merging the 450, 453 and 454 routes into one BUZ and likewise with the prepaid routes, along with improvements to Darra station feeder services.

You mean abolish the 453 & 454 and just make the 450 a BUZ?  Might not be too popular with those on the 454 route beyond Mt Ommanney shops.  Very popular in Jindalee.  This has been proposed before, one suggestion was to also BUZ the 460 and co-ordinate the timetable so that 454 people could change at Mt Ommaney for a faster service.  I'm not completely convinced. 

I am convinced that a half-hourly 450 would be an improvement on an hourly 454 which applies after about 7pm weeknights though.

What about something similar to Browns Plains and have two BUZ routes? One could be the 450 and the other would be 454 which would exit the Centenary at Goggs Rd and travel via Sinnamon Park, 17 Mile Rocks, Mt Ommaney (interchange with 450 BUZ) and then continue on to Darra.

Pretty interesting suggestion.  That would also replace the 467/468, but I can't see how it could serve the Mt Ommanney Centre, unless it doubles back on itself.

[#Metro]

There are issues with traffic already, indeed it has been discussed previously:

http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2738.0 Western Suburbs
http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2684.0 Western Busway
http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2690.0

It is the only area (North[Kenmore etc] and South[Jindalee etc] of the Brisbane river) that is not serviced by a railway line close by (Ips line is not close IMHO) or a busway.

[frereOP]

The Centenary suburbs aren't exactly big enough trip generators for heavy rail and they are pretty well serviced by buses already.

The only thing I can suggest is merging the 450, 453 and 454 routes into one BUZ and likewise with the prepaid routes, along with improvements to Darra station feeder services.

Noooo... please!  Don't force an extra 7 minutes on us to do the sightseeing bit through Jindalee please.

What about thinking outside the square and having the Centenary buses act as feeder services to Darra and Oxley stations rather than run into town -  a viable option now with integrated ticketing that wasn't there 5 years ago.  Currently there is NO direct connection between Mt Ommaney Shopping Centre and Darra Station, and the 452 Darra Station loop bus misses most of Westlake by going along Riverhills Rd.

[somebody]

the 452 Darra Station loop bus misses most of Westlake by going along Riverhills Rd.

That part does seem quite dumb.

[ozbob]

Agree with the direct feeds to Darra frereOP.  One issue I am aware of is TransLink don't want to change anything ( wrt buses into Darra station) until the Darra upgrade is complete.

When Richlands kicks in Darra is going to have a very frequent rail service between CBD and Darra it is obvious that more bus feeders will be needed and sensible.

[somebody]

Agree with the direct feeds to Darra frereOP.  One issue I am aware of is TransLink don't want to change anything ( wrt buses into Darra station) until the Darra upgrade is complete.

I think flatly Translink doesn't want to change anything.

[QRIG]

Ok, seperate (new) proposal.
The Centenary Line
Indooroopilly
(Indooroopilly Shopping Centre)
Fig Tree Pocket North
Kenmore
Jindalee
Mt Ommanney
Jamboree Heights
Middle Park
Riverhills
(Bridge Crossing)
Bellbowrie
Moggill

As a resident of a possible bridge crossing location for either a road bridge or hypothetical rail bridge at Riverhills ... HELL NO!

I would argue for an hourly 452 to Darra past the peak hours to make it a little easier to stumble home after a big night out

[mufreight]

The NIMBY factor rises again

[#Metro]

Then please redirect the funds to a transit project outside my house. 
Gold Coast not wanting Light Rail, that's fine too. Redirect funds to where I live please.

This was just an ideas thread. Idea threads sparks discussion and ideas evolve and refine into something practical.
It certainly worked with Trouts Road!!!

A BUZ to this area and bus upgrades (BUZ 450) would work well. Longer term, the Centenary Highway presents
an opportunity for a high volume trunk public transport corridor. A green bridge to Moggill would allow cycling/buses or Light rail across to Moggill in the distant future. PT is also likely to be faster with a bridge as access to the Centenary Highway will be possible rather than Moggill Road. Mobility would also be increased significantly as a large menu of new destinations to travel to for people in Moggill and Belbowrie will be opened. People wanting to travel to Ipswich will no longer have to interchange at Indooroopilly, for example. Its likely that most such trips are taken by car now or the antiquated Moggill Ferry becuase PT journey times are simply uncompetitive.

I would not be surprised at all, given the continuing development in that area, if a freeway proposal were to surface in the future which proposed connecting the Ipswich Motorway at Dinmore to the Centenary Highway at Indooroopilly and widening Moggill Road to freeway standards. The case for one would be justified by the Northern Link tunnel and current congestion issues on Moggill road. Not advocating for this to happen, just pointing out the possibilities.

[Jonno]

As a resident of a possible bridge crossing location for either a road bridge or hypothetical rail bridge at Riverhills ... HELL NO!

I would argue for an hourly 452 to Darra past the peak hours to make it a little easier to stumble home after a big night out

The reality is it WILL be a road bridge so a rail bridge which will be much quieter, far lower pollution levels and therefore a better outcome.  Trying to stop both is never going to succeed (talk to the residents of Bowen Hills and Kedron who have lost significant parts of their suburb just so people can drive to the city) so the choice is to back a better outcome.  Putting more and more buses into general traffic is a very good way of spending a lot of money really only encouraging more people to drive in the long run  (see Connecting SEQ 2031 for the trends since 1996).

The poeple of Toowong, Paddington, etc are also about to be significantly impacted by the Northern Link Tunnel as well so people can drive in the last efficient and most pollutting form of transport.  Not smart at all. 

[#Metro]

I have used the word 'line', because it is mode neutral. You can have a bus line, an LRT line, a rail line or a metro line. They're all lines.

I think buses + bridge will do the job and hold the fort while the core section is sorted out and LRT can be extended. By doing it this way, the services can be staged just like busways can be staged. You just incrementally move the bus-LRT interchange point further out into the suburbs as the project progresses and then completes.

A bridge can come first for cycling and buses and then LRT. The exclusive status of the bridge with no car traffic means that mode share is exclusively 100% active transport and PT only. Look at the Eleanor Schonell Bridge. Amazing things happening every day, very far out from the CBD.

If I recall correctly, the cost-benefit ratio of the Eleanor Schonell Bridge was something like 7-to-1, which means huge benefits created for the community. It has to be protected from SOV motorists though- as we have seen calls to run cars along the Schonell Bridge!

[somebody]

Putting more and more buses into general traffic is a very good way of spending a lot of money really only encouraging more people to drive in the long run  (see Connecting SEQ 2031 for the trends since 1996).

Disagree with the point that no one will use a bus in general traffic.  Take up of BUZ pretty much disproves it.  Although it is true that it increases the expense and effectiveness of the service.

[Jonno]

Putting more and more buses into general traffic is a very good way of spending a lot of money really only encouraging more people to drive in the long run  (see Connecting SEQ 2031 for the trends since 1996).

Disagree with the point that no one will use a bus in general traffic.  Take up of BUZ pretty much disproves it.  Although it is true that it increases the expense and effectiveness of the service.

BUZ has shown that frequency does convert people.  No argument there

My point was that from 1981 to 2006 (and most likely beyond) the current approach to transport management has not resulted in the mode split change desired. In fact we have gone backwards not forward. All the efforts, which have been gerat ideas, etc., is not making the step-change we need.  If we want to target even the lowly 34% nominated in the draft Connecting SEQ 2031 then a significant change to the current policies/projects, etc needs to occur.  This includes an immediate halt on any mototrway, tunnel construction.

With all the PT and active transport improvements over the last 20 years has only resulted in more cars on our roads.  Connecting SEQ 2031 outlines a chnage but it is still too road centric.

[somebody]

From the 1960s/1970s until 1996 or so, the policy WAS to promote car use.  Policy SUCCESS.  Oops.

The 1997 plan didn't realise its goals, largely due to the concrete fetish which continues to this day.

[SteelPan]

I congratulate poster #1 on his vision  , but as can be seen even from the nervous nannies here - there's little vision and absolutely NO political clout, to see such a piece of infrastructure built!  Maybe one day things will be different, but "Brissy" mmmmaaatttteee will remain a Cinderella city to then! 

[grasseynoel]

I have freinds in Bellbowrie and Moggill who use the Moggill ferry to go to Riverview train station for their midweek CBD commute. So how about a "green bridge", bus and cycle only to replace the flood effected Ferry and have a Bus route to Riverview Station?

maybe even add the Buss bridge from Bellbowrie to Riverhills and connect the Mt Om shops to Bellbowrie bus route as well

[somebody]

I have freinds in Bellbowrie and Moggill who use the Moggill ferry to go to Riverview train station for their midweek CBD commute. So how about a "green bridge", bus and cycle only to replace the flood effected Ferry and have a Bus route to Riverview Station?

That's got to be pretty annoying!  Not only do you have to go backwards to park your car and pay the ferry toll, you turn into a pumpkin if you don't get home before the ferry stops running.

[#Metro]

I agree. Replace with bridge.

[mufreight]

It is not unreasonable to expect that were the Moggil Ferry to be replaced by a high level bridge that the greatest user would be those from Moggil, Bellborie and Kenmore who are so opposed to it now, had such a bridge been in place during the recent floods many who were isolated by the water would have a means of access.

[#Metro]

I think given a choice of sitting in a soggy house with no power, no food and cut off from the world for week + or a bridge, I'd be going for the bridge option too.

[Stillwater]

You dare speak the unspeakable, as far as the residents of Kenmore, Bellbowrie etc are concerned.  They have resisted, with great vigour, construction of a bridge to replace the Moggill Ferry.  The argument they make is that Moggill Road would become a rat run for traffic from Ipswich that otherwise would use the congested Ipswich Motorway.  There is strong speculation, however, that the real reason is that the people of the western suburbs view the natural barrier of the Brisbane River separating them from the Ipswichians in much the same way as the Romans considered the inhabitants on the other side of Hadrians Wall.  They feel that the Goths and Vandals of Ipwich will spill into their blueblood suburbs and rape and pillage.

Maybe the Flood Reconstruction Authority might be able to cut through the red tape and fear so as to consider a bridge as a 'back door' escape route for Bellbowrie etc in the event of a flood, but I still think the people there would rather starve than see a permanent link between them and Ipswich.

[#Metro]

Then starve they will!

[#Metro]

Build a bridge and then toll it. At 20-$50 million it might even pay for itself.

[colinw]

You dare speak the unspeakable, as far as the residents of Kenmore, Bellbowrie etc are concerned.  

I mentioned the Moggill Bridge concept to my wife, who grew up in the Western Suburbs (Brookfield), and her response was along similar lines.  She suggested that the "blue bloods" of Moggill would fight tooth & nail against any idea of being more closely linked to Ipswich!

My response to that was (a) "stuff 'em, I don't give a damn about how they feel", and (b) "blue bloods live in stately country homes in England and there is no such thing in Australia and we're all just poor immigrants, convict descendants or cashed up bogans in some form". :-)

A decent flood proof bridge at Moggill would be a real asset to the region, as well as bringing the Moggill area closer to a rail station.  This kind of response is just NIMBYism in another form, and not to be tolerated.