Ipswich via Moggill

[#Metro]

Stage 1
Indooroopilly (Branch begins)
(Possible Station opposite Indooroopilly Shopping Centre)
Fig Tree Pocket North
Kenmore
Stage 2
Pinjarra Road
Bellbowrie
Moggill
Stage 3
(Future Crossing)
Barellan Point
Karalee
North Tivoli
North Ipswich
Ipswich 'Central'

This would provide faster transport than bus could, open up land in the area for cheap housing, abolish the Moggill Ferry (can you believe that they have a ferry out there?) and connect with Ipswich. And because development would be from scratch, there would be an opportunity to do it with TOD principles in a sustainable way (i.e. Grid, no cul-de-sacs) rather than the road oriented policies we have had since the 1960s.

[O_128]

yep lets add this to the list of things on the post 2026 list. This actually would be a great route though

[Jon Bryant]

If this route and many more public transport routes are all planned for post 2026 then we are in for some serious economic and social decline as Peak Oil hits well before 2020.

[Jon Bryant]

The route is pretty much as a roughly drew on google maps.

See discussion of all new lines - http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=3177.0

[O_128]

Whens your promotion to minister for transport 

[stephenk]

File this idea with Maglev to Doomben.

[Arnz]

File this idea with Maglev to Doomben.

Or the "Maglev Bus to Caboolture" (tm Skyscrapercity Transport forums).

[#Metro]

Thanks Johnno.
I've put the idea into stages to reduce risk and keep the line construction in step with suburban density.
There is another possibility- I will place in a separate post.

I know this line may seem ambitious, but when you consider that the pollies were wanting a Goodna Bypass
http://www.nationbuildingprogram.gov.au/projects/ProjectDetails.aspx?Project_id=000756-09QLD-NP

The Goodna bypass would have diverged from the Ipswich Motorway, run north of it (where the rail line I proposed roughly fits) and then rejoins the motorway! No other connections whatsoever to anywhere; This is in effect a doubling up of an entire freeway, for what purpose? But everyone knows the Ipswich motorway is a vote vacuum cleaner for any politician who wants to extend or duplicate it.

At least they will preserve that particular corridor!
Lets hope in the future they put trains not lanes on there.

[mufreight]

The concept is great but unfortunately the geography is not, the grades for such a line if on the surface would require a rack railway (low operating speeds) or a convuluted route to avoid the hills which would increase the distance and again the curve grade combination would mean slow point to point running times or a line that for most of its length would either be in tunnels or on bridges, anyone got a few spare (about $6 Billion) to pay for it.

[#Metro]

Yes, the route would require some refinement to avoid hills etc, but in general the roads don't appear to be that steep or hilly at all.
Perhaps going through the part just out of Kenmore perhaps, but this would need a more detailed study.

Definitely no to a rack railway. It is best kept simple and good.

[#Metro]

anyone got a few spare (about $6 Billion) to pay for it.

1. Do it in stages, that way you don't spend everything up front
2. 2.3 billion or so can be diverted away from the Goodna bypass.
3. Land releases in the area and development could fund further construction.

In the pre-road era, this is how estates were built. A tram line or railway line was extended piecemeal, and then the land around it was released. IIRC This is how suburbs like Everton Pk, Stafford etc came about- line extension in step with land release.

Now we just build the freeway and do the same as above. 

[STB]

I personally doubt any such line would ever happen, not just in the current and forecasted population density but also you'd find the Moggill residents would kick up a major stink if they had a crossing into the Ipswich area, hence why there is no bridge available from Moggil Road and Moggil Ferry Rd, the residents simply didn't want Ippy people coming across into their suburb.

[#Metro]

Perfect illustration of NIMBY at work.
People move to the area, its nice, more people? Quick, pull up the drawbridge and lock them out.

[#Metro]

Found a story on Moggill Ferry.
http://www.qt.com.au/story/2009/10/19/furore-future-ferry-moggill/
http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/2008/11/turn-the-moggil.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/photos/2008/11/21/2425849.htm (This one has a photo)

The ferry is so 1800s! Residents don't want a traffic bridge because cars might use it.
A rail bridge or even a green bridge does not have this problem.

Some comments in the foot of the ABC feature suggest that "the money would be better spent on the Ipswich Motorway".
Funny that!

[#Metro]

Interestingly though, there is one group which actually would prefer a transport bridge out there.
Which is a refreshing change to the NIMBY mantras...
http://www.saveourkenmore.com/blog/news/we-need-bridge-moggill-to-wacol

We need a solution that takes traffic direct at source to the freeway network, rather than dragging it past thousands of families' homes.  We need a solution that gives a real choice to get out of their cars and onto trains.

That is why we have been arguing for a local bridge from Moggill to Wacol.  It would involve a handful of resumptions, with two men and a dog on one side and State Government land on the other side.  This could halve trip times by linking Moggill/Bellbowrie to Wacol station via a high frequency bus.  Allowing local traffic on to that bridge would give direct access to three freeways for local commuters.  That would take traffic away from thousands of families, dramatically improve commute times and get traffic off of Moggill Road.

[#Metro]

And it looks like someone has beat me to the idea by 140 years.
This was for using steam trains, so gradients should not be such a big issue.
And the density is certainly much higher now.

There is a map in there worth looking at

http://www.brookfieldhistory.org.au/docs/The%20Brookfield%20Railway.pdf

[mufreight]

4 chain radius (and less) curves, grades of 1 in 25, a roller coaster tied to a meranding route to try to get around hills, creeks etc and two river crossings and it is obvious why the proposal was not built.

[Jon Bryant]

Your right.  It is all too hard isn't it.  Lets just build the freeway with lots of expensive tunnels or excavation now as there is really no public transport demand and in about 40 years time maybe build a busway along side so that the stations have little or no housing density around them.     

There seems to be a engineering solution for every situation when we are building roads but it is all too hard if we are planning public transport.

This corridior is poorly serviced by public transport now and a bus stuck in general traffic, as is the case now, is the most inefficient transport solution other than providing no service at all (buses are a great for of public transport they just need to have thier own dedicated corrridor and operate rail-like) 

A solution is needed before they simply build this useless freeway which will only feed into an already congested Centenary Motorway. 

It is time for bold solutions before gridlock and peak oil hit!!!!

[#Metro]

I actually went out on BUZ 444 recently to see for myself.
It is not that bad. Worth a look and a engineering study.

And I have proposed an alternative: Alongside centenary bridge via Jindalee area.
Of course others are welcome to propose their own ideas/refinements/remedies.

Nothing stops a road not even:
* Brisbane river
*  tuff rock
* Having to ship tunnel borers half way around the planet from Germany on a ship
* Having to assemble and disassemble the tunnel borers IKEA-style.
* Avoiding the S1 Sewer
* Housing Resumptions
* Expense, expensive labour and expensive safety systems
* Tolls
* Airport Link/Brisconnections saga/attempted hostile company takeover/shares going to 0.01c/people not paying
* Global Financial Crisis
* Community outcry over smoke stacks and smoke stack heights
* Crazy colouring (bright purple!) of smokestacks

and they managed to finish the project early!

...And we give up when faced with a railway curve?!

If that is the case, then I propose a high speed busway along the same corridor as an alternative #3.
At least you can put a BCC bus on Moggill Ferry. Rail is probably better to Ipswich than a busway though.

[#Metro]

This corridior is poorly serviced by public transport now and a bus stuck in general traffic, as is the case now, is the most inefficient transport solution other than providing no service at all (buses are a great for of public transport they just need to have thier own dedicated corrridor and operate rail-like)

No wonder Coronation Drive, Milton Road and the Western Freeway are congested/need upgrading.

The solution?:
~2 Billion Goodna Bypass
~ 1.7 Billion Northern Link Freeway
plus whatever it cost to install the Western Freeway.

This is what I found on the NL website, bolding is mine:

The overall daily travel patterns of the forecast 48,8000 vehicles per average weekday in 2026 that would use the Northern Link Project show that:

    * For traffic accessing Northern Link from the Western Freeway, 60% of traffic would travel via the Centenary Bridge, 19% would access Northern Link via Moggill Road west, and 17% would access via Mogill Road east. The remaining 3% would access the project from Fig Tree Pocket.

http://www.northernlinkeis.com.au/traffic.html
http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/northern-link-to-go-ahead-20090904-fawq.html

[#Metro]

Just doing some research- there appears to be a transport corridor stretching from Moggill, North of the Brisbane River and then Connecting with the Centenary Highway at Kenmore. It shows up on the City Plan map as a dark red broken line.

Looks like another freeway.
http://www.brisbane.qld.gov.au/bccwr/lib181/cp001_jan10.pdf

[somebody]

Sounds like the Kenmore-Karrallee freeway reservation.  There was talk last year sometime I think of it actually being built.  Residents were up in arms after buying near the reservation.  It'd make for an easier connection to the Warrego Highway, but it's thought to be uneconomic.

[#Metro]

Hmmmm.
A simple and cheaper green bridge from Moggill/Bellbowrie to Sumners Road Riverhills might have merit too.
It would allow fast connection to Darra Station as well, but I think people would use it to shop at Mt Ommaney.

Google Maps

[#Metro]

The more I read into it, the more I seem to find a "dual view".

Public transport options in this area seemed to be dogged by reasons such as:
1. not enough density
2. little demand
3. too far

But when one looks at material proposing a freeway or a bypass (either Goodna, or Kenmore bypass) there seems to be any number of reasons advanced as to why a freeway should be built. Strangely "public transport improvement" is always tacked onto the end of the freeway proposal as it was with Northern link, the benefit being supposedly the faster travel on the freeway (which eventually will clog itself in time anyway).

The local pollie's site:
(There seems to be plenty of latent traffic demand)

...A Kenmore bypass would see this section of road built to allow in excess of twenty thousand cars a day entering Kenmore along Moggill Road to have the option of going direct to the Western Freeway....

...The Main Roads Department have long been of the view that little or nothing can be done to actually improve the flow of traffic along Moggill Road.With continuing growth particularly in the Moggill/Bellbowrie area traffic volumes are increasing significantly every year.
If a bypass were built travel times including those for public transport could be significantly reduced and importantly traffic conditions could be expected to improve dramatically on Moggill Road through both Kenmore and Chapel Hill.

Further, looking up on the DTMR website, it shows that the Kenmore bypass is feasable and is expected to go ahead as a 4 lane freeway (2 lanes each direction), with a large interchange to be sited at Fig Tree Pocket North.

Preffered planning option released

To be fair, the bypass would allow for say 444 Moggil BUZ or 446 Moggill Rocket a faster Journey, but I am of the view that there will be further development in the future which would need more extensions and freeway eventually joining the Warrego and Ipswich Motorways in a staged fashion. The bypass should be either Rail or busway, not another freeway.

[#Metro]

Nothing stops a freeway

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/kenmore-bypass-a-step-closer-20091013-gue2.html

...Queensland Transport has already flagged the widening of Centenary Highway to six lanes as another option to reduce congestion but has not made a decision on the Kenmore Bypass proposal...

...A second bridge is proposed for Kenmore Road to allow the bypass to cross onto the Centenary Highway...

...Residents in the past have suggested light rail run westwards over the Brisbane River connecting to Gailes Rail Station....

[Jon Bryant]

Not even the reality, evidenced by research around the world, that more road space encourages more vehcile use and thus the congestion that eventually fills it.  The most futile use of our tax payers money.

[#Metro]

Hi Jonno.

In summary.

1. There is a reserved area set aside for a "transport corridor" which will keep the number of resumptions down to a minimum or at least not be so many as a freeway would take. The freeway has passed the planning hurdle and is awaiting financing. The cost of resumptions and a new bridge is not prohibitive.

2. There was a previous proposal for a railway in this area branching from Indooroopilly dating back to the late 1800s. It apparently was approved by the QLD Parliament, but never built. However that said, a dedicated busway corridor or a light rail corridor could also be considered.

3. There is traffic to justify a number of road projects in the area (Goodna bypass, Kenmore Bypass etc) and increasing the size of the Centenary Motorway is being considered.

4. There is ample landholdings and continuing development in this area

5. This is the only point on the compass that does NOT have a busway. There is no "Western Busway".

6. Despite the local state MP's assertions that the project was "about benefiting public transport and cycling", at the heart of the proposal it is a freeway. In my view it should be rail/light rail/tramtrain or dedicated busway only. We can improve cycling and public transport while rejecting the freeway portion of the option presented.

A poll was conducted by the local state MP asking residents whether they wanted the freeway or not. Although most agreed that they wanted the freeway, tellingly, no-one bothered to ask if given the option, would they rather prefer a rail station/light rail station or a busway to this area.

[#Metro]

The cynic in me suggests that roads are preferred as they can collect tolls downstream, taxes and charges from fines and registration costs.

At least in a bus you don't get charged exorbitant tolls or have to bring your own vehicle!

[#Metro]

http://www.mainroads.qld.gov.au/Projects.aspx
TMR has 4 major projects going. 3 of them are in the western corridor.

They will need a busway sooner or later...

The Centenary Highway Extension will be the primary transport corridor for southern Ipswich, the Ripley Valley, Springfield, and the expanding Swanbank industrial area. It's being built well ahead of demand to improve the standard of living for western corridor communities.

Western Corridor Projects

    Over $4 billion in state and federal funding has been approved to date for the Western Corridor transport projects:

        * Centenary Highway Extension: Springfield to Yamanto – $366 million
        * Ipswich Motorway Upgrade: Wacol to Darra – $700 million (stage 1) and $124 million (stage 2)
        * Ipswich Motorway Upgrade: Ipswich/Logan Interchange – $285 million
        * Ipswich Motorway Upgrade: Dinmore to Goodna – $1.95 billion
        * Darra to Springfield Transport Corridor – $800 million (stage 1)
        * Corinda to Darra Rail Upgrade – $189 million.

Funny how rail is the cheapest...