High Speed and Fast Rail

[SurfRail]

My view remains that we absolutely should have a small group working within the Federal Government to identify and preserve a corridor, partially through acquisition if feasible but most likely largely through planning controls without actually acquiring land.   

Actual procurement?  Forget it, not for a VERY long time.

[verbatim9]

Sunshine coast might get the Hyperloop instead https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperloop

[colinw]

My view remains that we absolutely should have a small group working within the Federal Government to identify and preserve a corridor, partially through acquisition if feasible but most likely largely through planning controls without actually acquiring land.   

Actual procurement?  Forget it, not for a VERY long time.

Corridor preservation is AOK, and the corridor could end up being useful for something even if we don't build a TGV standard line.

But going off on an eye-wateringly expensive HSR building binge while more pressing needs to unmet .. no thanks!

[ozbob]

IRJ --> Texas HS pre-construction contract awarded

TEXAS Central Partners has signed a $US 130m contract with Dallas to Houston Constructors (DHC), a joint venture between Archer Western Construction and Ferrovial Agroman to carry out engineering and pre-construction work on the proposed 385km Dallas - Houston high-speed line ...

[ozbob]

BBC --> Seven dead as French TGV high-speed train derails in east

A high-speed TGV train has derailed near the eastern French city of Strasbourg, killing at least seven people, officials say.

The crash happened during a test run in the town of Eckwersheim, on a new Paris-Strasbourg line.

Reports say technicians were on board the train and seven people were injured.

The injured have been taken to hospital by helicopters.

Local government officials say the derailment was due to "excessive speed".

The train was carrying 49 people when it derailed, caught fire and headed into a canal.

Pictures later showed the locomotive partly submerged. Wreckage was also scattered in a field beside the track.

Rescue teams - including divers - are working at the scene.

Reports say the Paris-Strasbourg high-speed line is scheduled to open next year.

Junior transport minister Alain Vidalies and Ecology Minister Segolene Royal will visit the scene, French media reported.

[ozbob]

^

Railway Gazette --> Late braking caused TGV derailment, says SNCF

FRANCE: SNCF President Guillaume Pepy emphasised the 'over-riding importance of organisational and human factors' following the publication on November 19 of an initial report into the fatal derailment near Strasbourg on November 14 of a TGV during commissioning trials for Phase 2 of LGV Est-Européenne. The accident claimed the lives of 11 people, injuring 37 of which three are still reported to be seriously ill.

The report has concluded that the 'certain cause' of the accident was 'a late braking sequence'. The train derailed at 243 km/h after entering a 945 m radius curve over a canal at Eckwersheim at 265 km/h, instead of the 176 km/h limit applying to that point in the test run. The resulting centrifugal force destabilised the TGV causing the vehicles to derail, with some coming to rest in the canal. The curve forms the approach to the grade-separated junction between LGV Est and the Paris – Strasbourg main line at Vendenheim.

Noting that 'the immediate cause is now known', SNCF said that it had found no fault in the condition or operation of the infrastructure or the test train itself which could have contributed to the derailment. Nor were there any irregularities in the operational control of the area.

The report said that there were seven people in the cab of the TGV at the time of the accident. The authors suggest that this may have impaired the driver's sight lines, and hindered the ability of a second driver to intervene to slow the train. Noise in the cab is also an area of focus, the report added. The two drivers and the traction inspector have been suspended by SNCF pending possible criminal charges ...

More > http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/news/europe/single-view/view/late-braking-caused-tgv-derailment-says-sncf.html

[ozbob]

Twitter

The Australian ‏@australian 1h

Federal Labor calls for high-speed rail link ­between Brisbane and Melbourne. http://bit.ly/1TfBPIh  @albomp

[verbatim9]

I wonder if they can unlock super funds to pay for it? Dual guage sleepers from Qld/Nsw border at Gold Coast via OOL and realignment from Beenleigh to Roma Street makes sense. Improvements for all trains running South.

[ozbob]

Every year or so HS rail is rolled out by Labor and the Greens - although to be fair with the Greens HS rail is more of a standing item.

There is little chance of generating the necessary support, economically, politically and socially for HS rail whilst suburban and interurban, and freight rail languishes in this land IMHO.

There is only so much funding available.  A nation that cannot even deliver basic transport functions in a sound sustainable way has no chance with HS rail ...

[ozbob]

Gold Coast Bulletin --> Is Australia being taken on a super-fast ride?

[ozbob]

House of Representatives

Media release

Value-capture the fast track to high speed rail

New inquiry

The development of transport infrastructure and increased transport connectivity will be a major driver of economic activity in Australia's cities and regions.

As part of a new inquiry into the role of transport connectivity on stimulating development and economic activity both in major urban areas, and in regional Australia, the Standing Committee on Infrastructure, Transport and Cities will examine the means of promoting and funding new transport infrastructure, with a particular focus on value-capture as a funding mechanism for infrastructure development.

Value-capture refers to the impact that transport infrastructure – such as high speed rail – has on property values and how governments can harness this improved value to sustainably fund transport infrastructure.

Standing Committee on Infrastructure, Transport and Cities Chairman, Mr John Alexander OAM MP, said he is looking forward to hearing about how the value-capture model has been used in other countries to deliver high speed rail projects.

"Given the positive impact increased transport connectivity usually has on property values, mechanisms such as value-capture can help to make major projects focused on increasing transport connectivity more feasible.  Value-capture has not been widely used in Australia, and this inquiry is an excellent opportunity to examine the ways in which it has been applied internationally, and how it could best be applied in Australia," Mr Alexander said.

The committee invites interested persons and organisations to make submissions to the inquiry addressing the terms of reference. Submissions close on Friday 12 February 2016.

Further information on the Inquiry, including the full terms of reference and how to prepare a submission can be obtained from the Committee's website or from the Secretariat on (02) 6277 2352.

[verbatim9]

Do you think that 2040 is a legitimate timeframe to wait for HSR surely it could be operational before then?

[ozbob]

Gold Coast Bulletin -->City, tourism and business leaders back renewed look at plans for east coast bullet train

[#Metro]

A Gillard Government feasibility study put the cost of such a link at $114 billion, with Cr Tate conceding overseas investment would be needed to help it become a reality.

To put this into perspective, the Australian Government spends around $450 BN each year. This project would consume ~ 25% of national income.

Planes also travel at 2x the speed of the trains.

Budget 2015 http://www.budget.gov.au/2015-16/content/overview/html/overview-29.htm

Much more luck to be had with disconnecting the Beenleigh line from the GC line and running into Brisbane via the SE Freeway. Or just do bus reform! Cost next to nothing!!

[ozbob]

As a community we cannot even manage to set up connected bus networks ...

HS rail?   Sure  ... go to Japan, China, Europe etc.   never going to happen down under ...

HS always surfaces as election cycle begins to peak .... 

[hU0N]

A Gillard Government feasibility study put the cost of such a link at $114 billion, with Cr Tate conceding overseas investment would be needed to help it become a reality.

To put this into perspective, the Australian Government spends around $450 BN each year. This project would consume ~ 25% of national income.

Planes also travel at 2x the speed of the trains.

Budget 2015 http://www.budget.gov.au/2015-16/content/overview/html/overview-29.htm

This is the real issue. Roma Street to Sydney Central via best conventional HSR systems currently in service would be around 3.5 - 4hrs. Plus maybe 15min for boarding, and an extra 30 mins if you checked luggage. In total 4-5hrs end to end, give or take. Sydney Central to Southern Cross would be similar.  Roma Street to Southern Cross would be in the region of 7.5-8.5hrs.

By comparison, Roma Street to Sydney Central by air: 30 mins airtrain (incl waiting time). 15 mins boarding, another 20 mins to check bags (with online check-in). 90 mins flight time, 10 mins to pick up bags, 30 mins train to Sydney Central (again including waiting), which adds up to about 3.5hrs give or take. Again Sydney Central to Southern Cross is similar (a touch quicker due to shorter skybus headway). Roma Street to Southern Cross about 4.5hrs.

That's the real issue. That while the service might not be that much slower (particularly to/from Sydney), it still would be slower. And in order to attract passengers other than HSR wonks to a slower service, it would need to be either cheaper or similarly priced and more comfortable.

And either option is a huge hurdle.

Cheaper is a problem because airfares are already super low ($40 - $400 economy, but usually somewhere around the $150-$200 mark). Even with a fully loaded train each way every day between Sydney/Melbourne AND Sydney/Brisbane, it would take over 1000 years to pay back the construction costs alone out of fare box revenue at fares broadly similar to airfares. So cheaper fares is a problem.

And making the train more comfortable is also a problem because it ultimately means fewer seats per train, which has much the same effect on the bottom line as charging lower fares.

This all squares with overseas experiences, where journeys up to 700km are super competitive, 700-800+km go line ball with airlines, while journeys over 900km are not really competitive.

I'm no expert on HSR economics, but I imagine that what makes HSR work overseas is the relatively short haul services that connect cities a few hundred kilometres apart. One train can travel the 900km or so from Paris to Marseille and it passes through a bunch of decent sized cities on the way, dropping off and picking up fares the whole way.

Apart from Canberra, this isn't the case in Australia. You'd stop in Grafton (for example) because it's there, but realistically it wouldn't generate that much demand. Here in Australia the long haul is the whole game, and it's not a game any rail operator can really afford to pay.

[#Metro]

It would be interesting to see what the HSR costs are if the terminals were located out of the city areas. Much of the cost is due to incursions of the HSR alignment into urban and city areas, where the land value is very high and tunnelling is needed.

People tolerate airports being located outside CBD areas, so why not intercity rail services? Costing model could be reworked to have terminals at Badgery's Ck or Brisbane Airport for example.

In any case, if there is a case for HSR in any form (doubt it) it would be for cities where air travel would be silly. For example, Brisbane <---> Gold Coast; Brisbane <---> Sunshine Coast; Melbourne <---> Geelong and possibly Sydney <---> Canberra.

When the distances are shorter, speed becomes less important (unless you are perhaps Bronywn Bishop MP taking a helicopter to Geelong) and the cost to fuel up the plane, turn the plane around, landing fees etc make the plane less ideal. And because people travel more frequently to destinations that are nearer than farther ones, more people would use it, plus the construction cost would be less because the line length would be shorter (lower construction AND operating costs).

There are so many other things that we could spend the money on fixing up the existing network. Like making GC trains every 15 mins with works, fixing SC line, LRT extensions and so forth.

[verbatim9]

Yes, Rail realignment and electrification from Sydney Brisbane as well as to Canberra will do wonders in the short to medium term and cost a lot less.
300,000,000 Aud per km for electrification and track amendments as per a quick search on Google for 25Kv system. So around 9 billion to Coffs Harbour from Brisbane for approx 300km of track

[#Metro]

I suspect there is a "sweet spot" that optimises construction costs / travel time and speed. Would be worth seeing what this is for local corridors. Nobody would dream of catching plane from Brisbane to GC or Brisbane to SC or Mel to Geelong.

Some of the medium speed options might be more worthwhile.

Maglev to Sunshine Coast!!

[Stillwater]

^^Well, perhaps Tilt technology to the Sunny Coast.  In the Bligh 'infrastructure pipeline' (the one that broke and was replaced with the LNP 'we deliberately did not have an infrastructure plan' .... which broke and has been replaced with only having a proposal to have a new pipeline ....) the Coasts were going to get Tilts to achieve coast-to-Brisbane travel times of 'about an hour'.  So, the future (it always seems to be so distant in Queensland), maybe Tilts as less ambitious and more feasible.

I remember one former NSW Government pulling a stunt by bringing out a tilt train from Sweden, running it all over the place and telling people this was what they would get if they voted the 'right way'.  The XPT's must be ancient.  What will replace them?

Could the Queensland Tilts, when it comes time for them to go into semi-retirement, make the Gympielander trip? 

[ozbob]

The XPTs are being replaced.  See > http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=11551.0

True high speed rail will never happen in Queensland.   We cannot even sort out basic suburban and interurban transport.

We need to fix what we have, enhance what we have so that it is reliable, connected, accessible, quicker and safe.

Priorities in my mind are track amplification Beerburrum Landsborough North, ATP for suburban network.

[#Metro]

XPT's must be ancient.  What will replace them?

Hi Speed Camel!


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/07._Camel_Profile,_near_Silverton,_NSW,_07.07.2007.jpg

[Arnz]

Forget the Maglev Bus to Caboolture, Maglev Bus to Gympie North anybody? 

[#Metro]

SHSR: Short High-Speed Rail Corridors

I think there is merit in exploring HSR for short distances. I doubt that any of this will be built anytime soon, if ever, and there are far more important things to spend money on - but I think there is value in changing the national conversation which is currently 'trains vs planes', to 'trains vs cars' over shorter distances where you would never think of taking a plane. In effect, HSR would compete with motorways, which seem to be a bottomless pit of subsidy which has had billions spent on it, lane addition, widening and road interchanges.

There would need to be some national standard so that should these separate systems ever join, they are inter-compatible.

Obvious corridors are Brisbane-Gold Coast and Brisbane-Sunshine Coast. Others can suggest corridors

At 300 km/hour, it would take about 15-20 minutes to reach the Gold Coast, cutting travel times by over 60%, more if the service is frequently (say every 15 minutes). Even better it would allow the Beenleigh and GC lines to be separated, with the GC line to be along a more direct alignment.

Times to the Sunshine Coast would be similar. Costs would be high ($20 billion mark) however it would fill a large gap between cars (max speed 110 km/hr) and planes. It would be very competitive against motorways.

To me it seems silly to have Planes vs Trains. Trains are not going to win that one. But HSR vs Car, that may be doable!

https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/

[bcasey]

SHSR: Short High-Speed Rail Corridors

I think there is merit in exploring HSR for short distances. I doubt that any of this will be built anytime soon, if ever, and there are far more important things to spend money on - but I think there is value in changing the national conversation which is currently 'trains vs planes', to 'trains vs cars' over shorter distances where you would never think of taking a plane. In effect, HSR would compete with motorways, which seem to be a bottomless pit of subsidy which has had billions spent on it, lane addition, widening and road interchanges.

There would need to be some national standard so that should these separate systems ever join, they are inter-compatible.

Obvious corridors are Brisbane-Gold Coast and Brisbane-Sunshine Coast. Others can suggest corridors

At 300 km/hour, it would take about 15-20 minutes to reach the Gold Coast, cutting travel times by over 60%, more if the service is frequently (say every 15 minutes). Even better it would allow the Beenleigh and GC lines to be separated, with the GC line to be along a more direct alignment.

Times to the Sunshine Coast would be similar. Costs would be high ($20 billion mark) however it would fill a large gap between cars (max speed 110 km/hr) and planes. It would be very competitive against motorways.

To me it seems silly to have Planes vs Trains. Trains are not going to win that one. But HSR vs Car, that may be doable!

https://infrastructure.gov.au/rail/trains/high_speed/

It might be doable if everyone lived next to the HSR terminals, however once you add on the waiting time and travel time on a different method of transport to get from home to the terminal and vice versa (whether it is via bus, commuter train, taxi/uber or park/kiss&ride), there wouldn't really be any advantage to go by HSR, imo. Considering how much trouble it is taking just to get the current sunshine coast line duplicated, I very much doubt an extra HSR line would be politically possible or even practical anytime soon

[#Metro]

It might be doable if everyone lived next to the HSR terminals, however once you add on the waiting time and travel time on a different method of transport to get from home to the terminal and vice versa (whether it is via bus, commuter train, taxi/uber or park/kiss&ride), there wouldn't really be any advantage to go by HSR, imo. Considering how much trouble it is taking just to get the current sunshine coast line duplicated, I very much doubt an extra HSR line would be politically possible or even practical anytime soon

Er, I think it could work because the large express section between Brisbane - Beenleigh. Similar setup could be done for SC.
It is well suited to this kind of operation.

Point taken about this being a pipedream though! We can't even reorganise the bus network.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Financial Review ‏@FinancialReview 1h

Chinese railways want high-speed double-deck #Sydney Harbour tunnel. http://bit.ly/1Ok4F8T  #ausbiz #rail #nswpol

[ozbob]

Sydney Morning Herald --> 'Stars are aligning' for Australia to build high speed rail, says international expert

[verbatim9]

Twitter

Financial Review ‏@FinancialReview 1h

Chinese railways want high-speed double-deck #Sydney Harbour tunnel. http://bit.ly/1Ok4F8T  #ausbiz #rail #nswpol

Wonder why Bne not mentioned



Mmm! I have suggested the above in a post recently having Crr in Brisbane dual gauge to allow HSR to pass through.

[verbatim9]

Sydney Morning Herald --> 'Stars are aligning' for Australia to build high speed rail, says international expert

Step forward I guess

[BrizCommuter]

HSR should not be sharing tunnels with metro due to the small radius curves (just look at the alignment between Barangaroo and Martin Place). HSR should run on it's own almost straight alignment.

[verbatim9]

New push for Australia to adopt high-speed rail ----> http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/new-push-for-australia-to-adopt-highspeed-rail/news-story/761325b4e98123c2e1ec0163fee62df6

[#Metro]

Same old arguments trotted out.

Emissions - not an argument. Carbon tax or offsets would accomplish that.

Regional development - posting cheques to councils in regional areas would achieve the same thing (and more cheaply)

Speed -  Planes fly 2x faster than trains

Capacity - Just buy a bigger plane

Time savings - Long distance passengers are less time sensitive IMHO. Many would block out the whole day. If you bring luggage, also need time to stow that too.

Cost - Air travel is cheap, trains would have to be much cheaper to undercut them.

If there is a space for HSR, it will not be competing against aircraft. It will be competing with motorways where cars are necessarily limited to 100 - 110 km/hour and motorway capacity is too low to sustain free traffic flows.

Pick the right tool for the right job. HSR as proposed by proponents is dumb. But adapted and applied to a slightly different problem, may be a way forward.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Is it time to move on high-speed rail?

[ozbob]

Twitter

Anthony Albanese ‏@AlboMP 9s

My speech calling on Govt to adopt my #HighSpeedRail Planning Authority Bill: VIDEO: http://bit.ly/21IcpYq  BILL: http://bit.ly/1RBsium

[error]

Same old arguments trotted out.

Emissions - not an argument. Carbon tax or offsets would accomplish that.

Regional development - posting cheques to councils in regional areas would achieve the same thing (and more cheaply)

Speed -  Planes fly 2x faster than trains

Capacity - Just buy a bigger plane

Time savings - Long distance passengers are less time sensitive IMHO. Many would block out the whole day. If you bring luggage, also need time to stow that too.

Cost - Air travel is cheap, trains would have to be much cheaper to undercut them.

If there is a space for HSR, it will not be competing against aircraft. It will be competing with motorways where cars are necessarily limited to 100 - 110 km/hour and motorway capacity is too low to sustain free traffic flows.

Pick the right tool for the right job. HSR as proposed by proponents is dumb. But adapted and applied to a slightly different problem, may be a way forward.

Emissions, regional development, capacity... Sure the answers you've given to the problems would probably work - but they are not the only answers. There isn't always the one best solution. If HSR could achieve the same results without too many other drawbacks I'd say go for it.

[#Metro]

http://www.afr.com/opinion/columnists/our-government-has-dr-evils-budget-management-skills-20160303-gn9ddu

Indeed, like Dr Evil in the Austin Powers films, some don't seem to know or care about the difference between $1 million, $1 billion or $1 trillion. For many in Canberra, money is an abstract concept rather than the result of ingenuity and hard work by millions of people. Moreover, our largely innumerate media class is not about to call them out.

For something that cost 25% of national income, and basically duplicates a well functioning and cheap air system, I'm more than happy to pass on it.

If there is a place for HSR, it will not be competing against aircraft. It will be competing against motorways which are necessarily limited to 100 km/hour and have limited lane capacity.

[petey3801]

You do realise that an east coast HSR doesn't just mean Brisbane - Sydney - (Canberra) - Melbourne, yeah? There are a number of other regional stops between those cities, even if not every train stops there.

[#Metro]

What is the purpose of HSR?

[Stillwater]

HSR also opens up the opportunity for whole new towns to be developed, in addition to expansion of existing towns along the route.  And this may well be the sweetener offered to the private sector -- here is a couple of square kilometres of sheep paddock for you to develop and flog off in exchange for a contribution to HSR.  There would only be three or four of these sites, as development would occur more easily in places like Wagga Wagga, Shepparton, Newcastle, Port Macquarie etc where industry and infrastructure are in place already.