High Speed and Fast Rail

[ozbob]

From the Melbourne Age click here!

Fast-rail link 'opportunity for airport'

Fast-rail link 'opportunity for airport'
October 29, 2010

A PLANNED fast-rail link from Melbourne to Canberra and Sydney could make a railway line to Melbourne Airport possible, Public Transport Minister Martin Pakula says.

The state government has written to Canberra, saying a $20 million feasibility study of the fast-rail route presents ''a unique opportunity for Victoria to make an airport rail link a viable project''.

The federal transport department has said high-speed rail operations between Australia's main cities will not be workable because areas are too sparsely populated and the distances between them too great, but rail experts disagree.
Advertisement: Story continues below

Mr Pakula said the state government had been working on a possible route for the airport that would probably go from Southern Cross Station to Flemington, with stations at Highpoint Shopping Centre, and the new Maribyrnong Defence factory development, Airport West, Avondale Heights and Tullamarine.

The state had asked Prime Minister Julia Gillard to consider including the airport link as part of its feasibility study, Mr Pakula said.

CLAY LUCAS

[frereOP]

From the Melbourne Age click here!

Fast-rail link 'opportunity for airport'

Fast-rail link 'opportunity for airport'
October 29, 2010

A PLANNED fast-rail link from Melbourne to Canberra and Sydney could make a railway line to Melbourne Airport possible, Public Transport Minister Martin Pakula says.

The state government has written to Canberra, saying a $20 million feasibility study of the fast-rail route presents ''a unique opportunity for Victoria to make an airport rail link a viable project''.

Not if they have 5 stations between Tullamarine and Southern Cross.  See the ALCOM report on the need for priority for HSR services on shared tracks.

The federal transport department has said high-speed rail operations between Australia's main cities will not be workable because areas are too sparsely populated and the distances between them too great, but rail experts disagree.

If they are so informed that they know the answer already, why spend the money to do the study?  Bureaucrats getting involved is the last thing we need.  Let the study decide and if the two reports produced already (by the CRC for Rail Innovation and ALCOM), are any indication, there may be a few bureaucrats with their overpaid snouts out of joint.

Advertisement: Story continues below

Mr Pakula said the state government had been working on a possible route for the airport that would probably go from Southern Cross Station to Flemington, with stations at Highpoint Shopping Centre, and the new Maribyrnong Defence factory development, Airport West, Avondale Heights and Tullamarine.

The state had asked Prime Minister Julia Gillard to consider including the airport link as part of its feasibility study, Mr Pakula said.

CLAY LUCAS

[#Metro]

This is just madness.
Melbourne has many options:

1. Get a train out there
2. Get a tram/Light Rail out there

Melbourne already has the SkyBus, good but I prefer rail travel, it is faster, high capacity and more comfortable.
There is no need for HSR to travel such a short distance. They are using a sledgehammer to crack a peanut.

SmartBus yellow orbital has been extended to the Airport.
So now there is a cheap option just one interchange away from a rail station.

[frereOP]

This is just madness.
Melbourne has many options:

1. Get a train out there
2. Get a tram/Light Rail out there

Melbourne already has the SkyBus, good but I prefer rail travel, it is faster, high capacity and more comfortable.
There is no need for HSR to travel such a short distance. They are using a sledgehammer to crack a peanut.

SmartBus yellow orbital has been extended to the Airport. /
So now there is a cheap option just one interchange away from a rail station.

And why would you build an HSR station at an airport terminal like Tullamarine that is so close to a city?  It makes no sense because people would not catch an expensive HSR from Southern Cross Stn to the airport to catch a plane (they even complain about the price of Airtrain in Brisbane!), and they wouldn't save much time compared to a commuter line anyway.   And where else would they be going?  Sydney or Canberra which have airports as well?  Besides, YMML is on the wrong side of the city for an HSR line to the east or north-east of Melbourne.

Canberra is a different issue as they have no rail system at present and YSCB along with YGLB are touted as options for second international airport for Sydney.  So flying internationally into either Canberra or Goulburn would need HSR to Sydney which would be faster than a domestic flight.  Indeed an HSR could even be operated by QANTAS and intergrated into its network to serve this purpose with seamless interchange and accrual of QF Frequent Flyer points.  Imagine flying on QF?? into Canberra then transferring to the HSR to Sydney with a boarding pass you got in London. Gold Coast is the same.

[#Metro]

And why would you build an HSR station at an airport terminal like Tullamarine that is so close to a city?  It makes no sense because people would not catch an expensive HSR from Southern Cross Stn to the airport to catch a plane (they even complain about the price of Airtrain in Brisbane!), and they wouldn't save much time compared to a commuter line anyway.   And where else would they be going?  Sydney or Canberra which have airports as well?  Besides, YMML is on the wrong side of the city for an HSR line to the east or north-east of Melbourne.

Call me a conspiracy theorist, but maybe this is a deliberate way of derailing a serious look into HSR. Rather than oppose the HSR, straw-man "claytons proposals" are put up to make it look like something is happening, the costings will come out and of course- because the thing is designed-to-fail, oh look, its not financially viable and used as "proof" that Melbourne Airport can't support rail!

All this sounds all to similar to some LRT proposals in Brisbane! 
There was one proposal (I can't remember which one, there are so many failed LRT proposals for Brisbane) which had LRT to UQ, West End and New Farm. It was cancelled.

The next proposal was pretty much the same- except that it had the "profitable/high patronage" bits such as UQ and West End cut off!
Of course it then failed. What a waste of time.

Canberra is a different issue as they have no rail system at present and YSCB along with YGLB are touted as options for second international airport for Sydney.  So flying internationally into either Canberra or Goulburn would need HSR to Sydney which would be faster than a domestic flight.  Indeed an HSR could even be operated by QANTAS and intergrated into its network to serve this purpose with seamless interchange and accrual of QF Frequent Flyer points.  Imagine flying on QF?? into Canberra then transferring to the HSR to Sydney with a boarding pass you got in London. Gold Coast is the same.

I couldn't pick out where in the various HSR reports was where it said that an improved rail service (i.e. Tilt Train to Canberra) was not feasible vs HSR. A tilt train to Canberra might be one solution. The costs are lower, the performance is lower vs HSR, but maybe it is within financial and practical engineering reach vs HSR?

On a side note, if Sydney needs a new Airport, IMHO Sydney should get one. Why fly into Canberra only to jump on a train to Sydney? That's crazy! While the Airline and rail markets overlap, they do have a significant non-overlap: far destinations, point-to-point travel and international flights. Not all air travel can be substituted by rail, only some.

[#Metro]

There has been no less than 53 reports since the 1970s for a new Airport at Sydney.
IMHO the mere possibility of HSR should not delay or prevent a second airport at Sydney.
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/chron/2003-04/04chr02.htm

A new Airport located near Badgerys Creek could also plug into the Western Express rail service that is planned for Sydney. Far cheaper, & much faster to deliver and more convenient.
http://www.nsw.gov.au/pages/metropolitan-transport-plan-map

[Stillwater]

Tramtrain:

Sydney stands almost alone in the world as a major city without a 24-hour international airport.  Every day, planes take off from wherever, hoping that Sydney Airport will not be fogged in or otherwise affected from 6am, when their flights are scheduled to land.  Curfew applies after 11pm.

There is no space in the Sydney Basin for a second international airport.  Recent housing development around Badgerys Creek site means that location is ruled out of contention.  Governments have stated that Badgerys is out for an airport.

In any event, to build a second Sydney Airport from scratch would cost $17 billion to $20 billion, so the issue becomes whether you can make Newcastle or Canberra work as Sydney's 'second international airport' and avoid all or part of this cost; the difference being 'captured' for a rapid transit system from either Newcastle or Canberra.

Re suggestion of a tilt train linking Sydney-Canberra, the mainline track south of Sydney is pretty good, but would require a deviation for optimal performance.  The track between Goulburn and Canberra is something that Adam built and has poor alignment and speed restrictions.  For a tilt train to be even remotely feasible, this section would have to be rebuilt, possibly to a new route via Lake George.

The logical termination point would be Canberra Airport.

So, part of the latest study should look at this option and whether a $20 billion 'saving' from not building a new airport at Sydney could be applied to a Canberra Airport upgrade (it is privately owned) AND a better rail line.

It would be just one consideration in a mix of many.  What does $20 billion buy you if you look to a dedicated fast line to Newcastle, and redevelopment there?

[#Metro]

There is no space in the Sydney Basin for a second international airport.  Recent housing development around Badgerys Creek site means that location is ruled out of contention.  Governments have stated that Badgerys is out for an airport.

I would disagree that Badgery's Creek should be ruled out due to housing development. Perhaps this was more of a convenient straw-man excuse?
This is an aerial photograph from 21 September 2010
http://www.nearmap.com/?q=Badgery's%20creek@-33.894785,150.759029&ll=-33.894785,150.759029&z=13&t=k&nmd=20100921

And there are precedents where housing has been taken back:
The entire suburb of Cribb Island was demolished to make way for Brisbane International Airport as we know it today.

Kansai Airport, Japan is built on an artificial island in the middle of the sea, built from scratch, with all sorts of expensive and fancy engineering.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kansai_International_Airport

I question the cost of the Airport being $20 billion. Kansai Airport, Japan has reportedly cost $20 billion to construct- it seems doubtful that any new or improved airport for Sydney would need anything near this level of engineering and therefore cost.

Also, who would be bearing these costs? The source of the money also matters- would this construction coming from the private sector or from government budgets or a mix of both?  Is there a reduction in benefit as well by building an airport so far away from the people who
wish to use it? Will it be worthwhile when the cost of the HSR ticket is factored in for travel to Sydney?

I note that Brisbane's parallel runway is expected to cost about $1 billion.
http://www.newparallelrunway.com.au/content/standard1.asp?name=NPR_approval

Newcastle is about 120 km from Sydney
Badgery's creek is 50 km from Sydney, and close to Western Sydney. There are existing road and rail options that would only require short extension.
Canberra is about 240 km from Sydney
Canberra is about 470 from Melbourne

Expecting people who want to go to Sydney, to go to Canberra first, transfer and catch a train into Sydney, just so that
a HSR train can be justified just makes no sense to me. Areas around Sydney, even Newcastle are far, far closer.

[frereOP]

The federal transport minister Anthony Albanese has today announced the $20M feasibility study into an east cost HSR project as promised in the recent federal election.  Problem is,it will be run through his department who oppose it in principle.

Details HERE

[O_128]

The federal transport minister Anthony Albanese has today announced the $20M feasibility study into an east cost HSR project as promised in the recent federal election.  Problem is,it will be run through his department who oppose it in principle.

Details HERE

First why is the study not being contracted to a private company out of the governments sphere of influence, secondly I agree with the suggestion on a canberra airport her station to alllow it to become sydneys second airport, then let private companies like qantas and virgin ( who has experience in the uk) run thee own services if they fund some of the money to build the stations,

[somebody]

Nothing less than a maglev is worth considering for travel between the capitals.  Unless you want it to serve the regional centres.

[frereOP]

Nothing less than a maglev is worth considering for travel between the capitals.  Unless you want it to serve the regional centres.

Canberra - Goulburn - Wollongong  - Sydney is about all an HSR could service realistically.  Maglev?  well, all I can say about that is beggars can't be choosers.  It would be nice but it ain't gonna happen!

[somebody]

Yes, OK, Canberra-Sydney, and Newcastle-Sydney-'Gong don't need maglev.

[Stillwater]

Maybe Mr Albanese should save taxpayers $20 million and hire Tramtrain to conduct the study.

frereOP - The terms of reference will be made public in an open accountability sense and Mr Albanese's statement says that private sector expertise will be used extensively. Presumably there will be a public comment phase, or calling of submissions.  The Greens will be watching the process closely -- and the report can be directed, after tabling, to a Parliamentary Committee scrutiny process.  There is little room for the department to maniplulate the final product.

Somebody - Maglev trains are very, very, expensive -- far more costly than steel wheels on steel track -- and operate, by and large, on the flat.  Calling for a Maglev train makes the prospects for a high speed train even more remote.  Have a look at the terrain between Sydney and Canberra.  Maglev is unsuitable for this route. 

[somebody]

Have a look at the terrain between Sydney and Canberra.  Maglev is unsuitable for this route. 

But I just said that you didn't need it for that route.

[ButFli]

Indeed an HSR could even be operated by QANTAS and intergrated into its network to serve this purpose with seamless interchange and accrual of QF Frequent Flyer points.  Imagine flying on QF?? into Canberra then transferring to the HSR to Sydney with a boarding pass you got in London. Gold Coast is the same.

Qantas already do this in Germany. They fly into Frankfurt and codeshare on DB trains from there to several other German cities. The trains aren't operated by Qantas but you do have a Qantas boarding pass with a QF**** flight number and you do earn points.

[verbatim9]

Indeed an HSR could even be operated by QANTAS and intergrated into its network to serve this purpose with seamless interchange and accrual of QF Frequent Flyer points.  Imagine flying on QF?? into Canberra then transferring to the HSR to Sydney with a boarding pass you got in London. Gold Coast is the same.

Qantas already do this in Germany. They fly into Frankfurt and codeshare on DB trains from there to several other German cities. The trains aren't operated by Qantas but you do have a Qantas boarding pass with a QF**** flight number and you do earn points.

Thats a good idea to have Virgin, Tiger and Qantas go for the tender of running the high speed rail here in Australia. It makes sense to checkin for your flight at point of Origin @ Southern Cross Station Mel or Central Syd or Brisbane. Plus having HSR passing via the Airport you have a seamless integrated transport network.

[frereOP]

Indeed an HSR could even be operated by QANTAS and intergrated into its network to serve this purpose with seamless interchange and accrual of QF Frequent Flyer points.  Imagine flying on QF?? into Canberra then transferring to the HSR to Sydney with a boarding pass you got in London. Gold Coast is the same.

Qantas already do this in Germany. They fly into Frankfurt and codeshare on DB trains from there to several other German cities. The trains aren't operated by Qantas but you do have a Qantas boarding pass with a QF**** flight number and you do earn points.

That's mainly because Berlin's main airport is unsuitable for heavies and super-heavies.  QF don't fly into Berlin.  I'm not sure what the boarding pass does on Deutsche Bahn services because ICE is a non-booking service.  You can book seats but you don't have to.  KLM and Air France are getting into the HSR business as well, not just as a code-share but operating the trains.

[ButFli]

Indeed an HSR could even be operated by QANTAS and intergrated into its network to serve this purpose with seamless interchange and accrual of QF Frequent Flyer points.  Imagine flying on QF?? into Canberra then transferring to the HSR to Sydney with a boarding pass you got in London. Gold Coast is the same.

Qantas already do this in Germany. They fly into Frankfurt and codeshare on DB trains from there to several other German cities. The trains aren't operated by Qantas but you do have a Qantas boarding pass with a QF**** flight number and you do earn points.

That's mainly because Berlin's main airport is unsuitable for heavies and super-heavies.  QF don't fly into Berlin.  I'm not sure what the boarding pass does on Deutsche Bahn services because ICE is a non-booking service.  You can book seats but you don't have to.  KLM and Air France are getting into the HSR business as well, not just as a code-share but operating the trains.

Uh no. There are no Qantas codeshares on DB to Berlin. If you buy a ticket to Berlin from Qantas you fly to London and there is a codeshare (or not) on BA from there.

I imagine your boarding pass acts as your ticket on the train.

[colinw]

Not via Frankfurt?

I haven't been to Berlin, but have visited our office in Madrid a couple of times.  Sometimes it is QF to London, and either a BA or Iberia code share to Madrid.  Other times it is QF to Frankfurt and then Iberia code share to Madrid.

[frereOP]

Indeed an HSR could even be operated by QANTAS and intergrated into its network to serve this purpose with seamless interchange and accrual of QF Frequent Flyer points.  Imagine flying on QF?? into Canberra then transferring to the HSR to Sydney with a boarding pass you got in London. Gold Coast is the same.

Qantas already do this in Germany. They fly into Frankfurt and codeshare on DB trains from there to several other German cities. The trains aren't operated by Qantas but you do have a Qantas boarding pass with a QF**** flight number and you do earn points.

That's mainly because Berlin's main airport is unsuitable for heavies and super-heavies.  QF don't fly into Berlin.  I'm not sure what the boarding pass does on Deutsche Bahn services because ICE is a non-booking service.  You can book seats but you don't have to.  KLM and Air France are getting into the HSR business as well, not just as a code-share but operating the trains.

Uh no. There are no Qantas codeshares on DB to Berlin. If you buy a ticket to Berlin from Qantas you fly to London and there is a codeshare (or not) on BA from there.

I imagine your boarding pass acts as your ticket on the train.

DB operates code-share services with American Airlines, Emirates, China Airlines and Lufthansa between Frankfurt International Airport and Cologne / Bonn, Düsseldorf, Freiburg, Hamburg, Hanover, Mannheim, Munich, Nuremberg, and Stuttgart.  DB even has its own IATA identifier (2B).

[somebody]

I believe frereOP is correct, at least somewhat.  Although I don't have a link, and can't be bothered, really.

[ButFli]

Indeed an HSR could even be operated by QANTAS and intergrated into its network to serve this purpose with seamless interchange and accrual of QF Frequent Flyer points.  Imagine flying on QF?? into Canberra then transferring to the HSR to Sydney with a boarding pass you got in London. Gold Coast is the same.

Qantas already do this in Germany. They fly into Frankfurt and codeshare on DB trains from there to several other German cities. The trains aren't operated by Qantas but you do have a Qantas boarding pass with a QF**** flight number and you do earn points.

That's mainly because Berlin's main airport is unsuitable for heavies and super-heavies.  QF don't fly into Berlin.  I'm not sure what the boarding pass does on Deutsche Bahn services because ICE is a non-booking service.  You can book seats but you don't have to.  KLM and Air France are getting into the HSR business as well, not just as a code-share but operating the trains.

Uh no. There are no Qantas codeshares on DB to Berlin. If you buy a ticket to Berlin from Qantas you fly to London and there is a codeshare (or not) on BA from there.

I imagine your boarding pass acts as your ticket on the train.

DB operates code-share services with American Airlines, Emirates, China Airlines and Lufthansa between Frankfurt International Airport and Cologne / Bonn, Düsseldorf, Freiburg, Hamburg, Hanover, Mannheim, Munich, Nuremberg, and Stuttgart.  DB even has its own IATA identifier (2B).

I don't see Berlin on that list. What's your point?

Not via Frankfurt?

I haven't been to Berlin, but have visited our office in Madrid a couple of times.  Sometimes it is QF to London, and either a BA or Iberia code share to Madrid.  Other times it is QF to Frankfurt and then Iberia code share to Madrid.

There aren't any Qantas codeshares from Frankfurt to Berlin. You could fly Qantas to Frankfurt and some other airline's flight number to Berlin. Qantas don't want you doing that though, because they aren't making any money from it. :p

[Stillwater]

It is true that (domestic) business travellers would want to fly into Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport.  However, consider all those international tourist travellers, or retired baby boomers tripping around the world on charter flights, or using RyanAir type operations.  For them, landing at Canberra or Newcastle would not be an inconvenience, if they could then travel to Sydney on High Speed Rail.  Think secondary airports serving London and the cheaper landing fees etc.

[Stillwater]

As to the disputed cost of a second Sydney airport, this article is interesting:

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/number-crunching-on-second-airport-20101004-164ep.html

Note that the article confirms that Badgerys Creek has been formally ruled out as a site for Sydney's second airport, although Richmond RAAF base may be an alternative within the Sydney Basin.

We will know the outcome next year.

[Stillwater]

Here' the Canberra Airport puts up its hand to be Sydney's second airport:
http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/canberra-stakes-claim-for-sydney-airport-20100831-14fn6.html

[frereOP]

It is true that (domestic) business travellers would want to fly into Sydney Kingsford Smith Airport.  However, consider all those international tourist travellers, or retired baby boomers tripping around the world on charter flights, or using RyanAir type operations.  For them, landing at Canberra or Newcastle would not be an inconvenience, if they could then travel to Sydney on High Speed Rail.  Think secondary airports serving London and the cheaper landing fees etc.

Not necessarily.  Time is money in business so if HSR can do Canberra City to Sydney City quicker than air, business will use it in preference (eg London - Paris).  As for "cheaper carriers" landing at other airports, that too is a double edge sword.  RyanAir type operations might be cheap, but when you add the expense of getting into the city, you are better off taking the more expensive option and flying direct.

So, for business, time is the critical driver, for tourists and casual travellers it will be the total cost from city centre to city centre.

[ozbob]

There is another factor driving HSR.   Fuel for aviation is a finite resource.  Electric rail can be powered by renewable energy.

In fact the long term future of aviation is now under a cloud.  You wouldn't know it with the crazed airport construction moves.

[frereOP]

There is another factor driving HSR.   Fuel for aviation is a finite resource.  Electric rail can be powered by renewable energy.

In fact the long term future of aviation is now under a cloud.  You wouldn't know it with the crazed airport construction moves.

Aviation is aware of the fuel issue and have already begun trialling renewable aviation fuels.  Air New Zealand have one of their aircraft fitted with an isolated fuel system that supplies biofuel (or a biofuel mixture) to one engine with normal Jet A1 to the other 3 as part of a certification program.  The advantage of turbine engines is they will run on what ever you feed them so fuel options are flexible.  Why is kerosene used now?  Because it is less flammable than other fuels in an emergency amongst other things but turbines will run on sump oil if necessary.

[#Metro]

Canberra is just so far. You probably would be better off just picking a closer airport/airport site and running HSR to that.

[somebody]

You wouldn't know it with the crazed airport construction moves.

Where are you thinking of here?  I can't think of anywhere in Aust that a new airport is under construction, although there was the plan for the parallel runway at BNE, now deferred.

Aviation only uses a small percentage of the fuel produced.  It will likely just pay a higher price for fuel until the end of the century.

[ozbob]

The key is moves.  Second Sydney, further extensions to Brisbane, talk of another airport Gatton area.

The sustainable transport forum did cover this impact, that is the impact on the aviation industry (and military as well) of the oil shortage.  Countries that once exported oil and are now net importers eg. Indonesia.  The last real oil in the ground not essentially fully exploited is in Iraq.  It is the view of some who research these matters that the last country with the potential to export oil is Saudi Arabia.  Another unknown is geo-political stability.  Running aircraft on biofuels or whatever is going to be expensive.  One of the reasons they use highly refined kerosene for turbines was the price and efficiency, and these fuels are starting to become more expensive.  Price sensitivity has been recognised by QRN and has started inline on train refueling on the long hauls, so they are not at the mercy of local fuel prices.  Something that the aviation industry cannot do in the same way.

3 November 2010
Media Release
QR National introduces fuel-as-you-go freight trains Australia's largest
rail freight company, QR National, has introduced a more efficient fuelling
process which enhances the reliability of its intermodal services between
Melbourne and Perth.
The service which left Melbourne on 16 September was the company's first to
use inline refuelling, which allows a train's fuel tanks to be continuously
topped up from a separate tank wagon behind the locomotives.
Group General Manager Intermodal Hans Anneveldt said the move would allow QR
National's intermodal business to buy diesel wherever it could obtain the
best price, rather than when the locomotives' tanks were running low.
"This has been made possible by the acquisition of new locomotives with the
technology to allow in-line refuelling and by the purchase of two refuelling
tanks which can be carried on a wagon behind the locomotives," Mr Anneveldt
said.
"Previously the trains had to stop to refuel at remote locations on the
east-west corridor where diesel prices tend to be higher than in
metropolitan areas.
"With this innovation we can purchase fuel in Melbourne, Perth or Adelaide
according to where prices are lowest.
"This is an important development because fuel is one of the highest costs
for the intermodal business, representing about 20% of our operating
expenses.
"Although the refuelling tanks, known as 'tank-tainers', will take up a
wagon that could otherwise be used to carry freight, the benefits outweigh
the costs.
"Further, the new process improves the efficiency and reliability of our
services because our trains will make fewer stops on the 3,500 km journey
across the country."

Countries that export oil are increasingly starting to think they may need to keep their supplies for themselves. 

The push for renewable energy production is gaining momentum, even in Queensland     There is hope, and it is electric rail.   

Electric cars are only at best a part solution, as we need massive increases in electricity generation to replace the addiction to petrol.   I think electric cars will be used for taxis.

[#Metro]

Electric cars are only at best a part solution, as we need massive increases in electricity generation to replace the addiction to petrol.   I think electric cars will be used for taxis.

Electric cars  The car companies have been talking about this for years, hasn't taken off in a big way (yet?)

"This is an important development because fuel is one of the highest costs
for the intermodal business, representing about 20% of our operating
expenses.

Makes me wonder- that HSR might be more viable as FREIGHT HSR rather than passenger HSR.

[somebody]

I would say that kero is moderately refined.  Much less refining than for petrol, and still less than for diesel AIUI.

There is also the energy density (kJ/kg) of kero, which is quite good.  A similar fuel was good enough for stage one of the Saturn V.

[frereOP]

The federal transport minister Anthony Albanese has today announced the $20M feasibility study into an east cost HSR project as promised in the recent federal election.  Problem is,it will be run through his department who oppose it in principle.

Details HERE

The Terms of Reference were included in the Ministerial Press Release.  To summarise:-

The high speed rail implementation study will by July 2011:-

     * Identify the requirements for implementation of a viable HSR network on the east coast;
     * Identify strategic route and station options, including high-level costing.

This initial phase will provide a basis for consultation and inform the specific direction of a second phase, including consideration of the specific corridors, routes and associated issues to be targeted for more detailed examination.

Further work from July 2011 will include:

    * Detailed corridor alignment identification;
    * Identification of preliminary geotechnical issues;
    * Development of comprehensive robust cost estimates for preferred options;
    * Further investigation of investment and (public and private) financing options;
    * Detailed patronage and revenue forecasts;
    * Consideration of preferred options in relation to other modes (for example, airport capacity implications resulting from diversion of air traffic to train).

The full Ministerial HSR Study Press Release

[frereOP]

Makes me wonder- that HSR might be more viable as FREIGHT HSR rather than passenger HSR.

The original VFT study in 1989 included HSR freight in the cost-benefit analysis.  This is what made it so attractive.  The benefits to the community (read "the justification for subisiding the service") included amongst other things:-

• Roll-on Roll-off containers with 3h transport Sydney to Melbourne enhancing transport efficiency based on a line that went via coastal southern NSW and Gippsland
• Reduction in costs associated with truck initiated road damage on the Hume Highway (1 semi-trailer does more damage than 50,000 cars!)
• Use of local feeder trucks to deliver freight to freight centres in the VFT line
• Reduction in cars on the Hume Highway leading to a reduction in road trauma and associated health costs
• Reduction in fuel use

High speed rail is now being introduced for freight in Europe by SCNF - especially for postal services - and of course Eurostar has the EuroShuttle betweern Calais and Folkstone.

The new Swiss/Italian tunnel will also be used for high speed freight to take much of the truck traffic off that route.

I'm sure an Australian HSR will need freight to make it viable - especially over the longer intercity distances (Sydney - Brisbane and Sydney - Melbourne.

[#Metro]

I agree. It puzzles me why the focus is so much on passenger HSR and all these glossy images of trains and 350km/500km etc focusing on the very high speed.

If speed was the issue, there were planes for that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concorde

Mach 2.04 (~2,170 kilometres per hour / 1,350 mph) cruising speed[30] for optimum fuel consumption (supersonic drag minimum, although turbojet engines are more efficient at high speed)

That would take you from Melbourne to Brisbane in 1 hour flat.

I think the issue should be "what service are we trying to do?" Unfortunately, the very high speeds and novelty/technological aspects seem to be taking the foreground rather than the service provided itself. What will the frequency be, for instance? How much will ticket prices cost? The HSR study should give a clearer picture of this.

The development of major town centres/cities is one thing that has been mentioned, although there are other ways to achieve this too. Relief of air traffic load was another. People may be willing to pay for a slower HSR service than air if it is cheaper. Regional connections are important. Freight and cars off the road are another reason.

If the HSR study just focuses on passenger transport, IMHO it won't fare very well. If the HSR can do freight or even allow faster freight train operation on the same track (so long as there were sidings etc for the slow trains to get out of the way) that would change things a lot.

[#Metro]

A chronology: http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/bp/1997-98/98bp16.htm

[Golliwog]

If you're putting any trains on the HSR line, it should be a high speed train. Freight or passenger, it doesn't matter, if its going on the fast line it should be a fast train. You're just going to limit capacity otherwise, even if you do provide sidings for trains to overtake.

[Jonno]

So where does this leave the Inland Railway? It is just one of the routes to be considered? Or can it be a slower route for freight along the route?  Interested in others thoughts?