High Speed and Fast Rail

[SurfRail]

Im slowly working my way through the report and one thing i feel that is unnecessary is the tunnelling to get into the capital cities, surely it would be cheaper to build the tracks parallel to the GC line and then be either parallel to the pacific/south east freeways or elevated above it then a bridge next the CC bridge run next to the REX then pass over into Roma street or depending id CRR is built just terminate it wooloongabba, it would only be 10min to the airport and will be destination in itself by the time we have HSR.

My other thing is that I would like to see predicted air travel prices as HSR will definitely be cheaper by then due to fuel costs.

If you want to maintain a reasonable amount of speed in dense metropolitan areas, for reasons of safety and amenity tunnels are generally the way to go.  The M1/M3 alignment is way too circuitious to allow 200kph running.

[Golliwog]

Possible detour to fantasy land here, but if it were to connect into CRR to terminate at Roma St (I assume something would be worked out wrt no. of platforms as long distance trains need bigger dwells) but that would allow for the future extension to Nth QLD via the potentially planned tunnel from Roma St to Alderley then continueing on via Trouts Rd (IIRC, the corridor is fairly straight) which gets it to Strathpine again before requiring much in the way of land take (this may change if Trouts Rd becomes a multi-modal corridor (ie: road and rail) which is still being given consideration.

[Andes]

Thanks Oz bob.  We need advocates like you who are actually interested in social justice for all citizens rather than where you live and which crappy political party is in power.  As you have probbaly seen in the media the Sun Coast pollies are a push over and more interested in OS study holidays and attending slunches rather than getting behind the wheel and fighting for SunCoast infrastructure.   

[Stillwater]

Re High Speed Rail to the Sunshine Coast, see here:

http://www.infrastructure.org.au/Content/veryfasttrains.aspx

In particular, note:  Figure 5 on Page 19; Pages 34-35 and Table 5 on Page 36.
All mention the extension of HSR to the Sunshine Coast.

Also, the Bligh Government has stated its intention to have fast CoastConnect trains running from the Sunshine Coast to Brisbane in about an hour.  What are the synergies possible by exploring this option in conjunction with a HSR concept linking the Sunshine Coast and Melbourne?

Will Ms Bligh push for HSR feasibility study to look at a Sunshine Coast terminus?  If not, how is she and her government going to provide for fast trains in the corridor independent of the HSR concept?  She has committed to CoastConnect, so she must explain how it will be funded through state coffers now that, as it would seem, the Sunshine Coast is off the radar in respect of a east coast HSR project.

Maybe it is time for the Sunshine Coast Regional Council to throw some dollars into the next stage of the HSR investigation in order to at least see whether HSR to the SC is feasible.  The council is pushing diversification of its economic base.  What a fantastic boost (and a tourist attraction in its own right) would be a HSR service and maintenance facility based on the Sunshine Coast?  (Maybe even the Big Pineapple could be the terminus.  It is central to the coast.)  Skilled workers?  Maybe they could be poached from Maryborough?

[ozbob]

Pity that ( http://www.infrastructure.org.au/Content/veryfasttrains.aspx ) has not made the Phase one study, but further enhances arguments to include the Sunshine Coast ...

[ozbob]

From the ABC News click here!

Costs run away on bullet train plan

Costs run away on bullet train plan
Brigid Andersen

Updated August 04, 2011 15:58:49

The plan seems out of this world - at least, that is, if you live in Australia. A high-speed bullet train which could slash travel times and costs between major cities and dramatically change the way Australians do business and holiday.

The Federal Government has released the first stage of a feasibility study into a high-speed rail network which could link Brisbane, Newcastle, Sydney, Melbourne and Canberra by 2036.

The study says the Brisbane-to-Sydney journey time could be three hours, while Newcastle to Sydney could take just 40 minutes and cost as little as $16.50.

The trip between Melbourne and Sydney could take less than three hours and cost between $99 and $197.

Similar networks already exist in Europe and Asia, and the latest feasibility study was commissioned as part of the Federal Government's deal with the Greens.

The study has priced the project at between $61 billion and $108 billion.

It says the bullet trains could travel at speeds of up to 350 kilometres per hour and the network could carry around 54 million passengers a year.

But transport experts say the price tag is far higher than that which has been attached to similar networks overseas.

Spain, which has the longest network in all of Europe, with more than 2,000 kilometres of rail, is estimated to have spent about $60 billion on its system. It plans to expand that network so that 90 per cent of the country is within about 50 kilometres of a high-speed rail station, which would cost about $150 billion.

In contrast, Australia's system would serve just a small portion of Australians living on the east coast.

Dr Michelle Zeibots is from the University of Technology Sydney's Institute for Sustainable Futures.

She says there seems to be a blow-out in costs for Australian infrastructure projects.

"We need to question those costs and I don't think that those costs are in keeping with construction costs for projects of that kind overseas," she said.

"This is a problem that needs to be levelled at a lot of rail and big infrastructure projects that we're currently looking at in Australia.

"It's not just this bullet train but a lot of extensions to our existing heavy rail network in Sydney for example."

Dr Zeibots says infrastructure costs in parts of Europe - where high-speed rail networks already exist - are cheaper than Australia.

"If a country that is very wealthy like Switzerland - labour costs are not cheap in Switzerland - if they're able to produce good quality, high-speed rail products at costs that are far below what we are, then we need to ask why," she said.

"I think this is what we really need to focus on in order to see if something like this is viable."
Changes on the way

But Dr Zeibots says Australia needs to start planning for new transport networks.

She says changes will have to be made over the next decade.

"We do need to look at this because there are going to be problems with fuel availability for air travel," she said.

"I think we're going to have problems in that particular area, they're going to creep up on us and they're going to get more and more severe over the next decade.

"So over the next decade is the time when we really do need to start looking at this seriously because of that issue of fuel availability and energy security."

And Dr Zeibots says while the network is vital for the economic future of Australia's major cities, it would also boost regional areas.

"I think that a project like this could potentially bring life into a lot of rural and regional areas," she said.

"If these trains are also going through rural hubs along the way - and I can't see why they wouldn't stop at several places between Brisbane and Sydney, then I actually think we could see it breathe life in our regional areas," she said.

The second part of the study, which will look at geotechnical work and network routes, will be released next year.

[Fares_Fair]

612 ABC Brisbane Drive Show host Kelly Higgins-Devine conducted an interview on the study.  I was able to mention the Sunshine Coast, and that it should be considered in the corridor, principally because of the population projections and the benefit to tourism and residents alike.  It was a wide ranging interview and I explained the advantages of electric rail - light and heavy and high speed in the context of renewable electricity production and that land transport and aviation costs will escalate as carbon based fuels increase in costs, due to oil shortages and carbon pricing/emission trading schemes and so forth.

Thanks for the interest 612!

[ozbob]

High speed rail Channel 7 News  Brisbane --> http://au.news.yahoo.com/video/queensland/watch/26164829/

[ozbob]

High Speed Rail SBS News --> http://player.sbs.com.au/naca/#/naca/wna/Latest/playlist/High-speed-rail/

[SurfRail]

In contrast, Australia's system would serve just a small portion of Australians living on the east coast.

Half the country's population is not a "small portion".

It's easy to throw around crap like "Europe builds things cheaper" without any context as well.

[O_128]

In contrast, Australia's system would serve just a small portion of Australians living on the east coast.

Half the country's population is not a "small portion".

It's easy to throw around crap like "Europe builds things cheaper" without any context as well.

Its more than half the country and I would say that some of the estimates are even on the conservative side. I see the gold coast hitting 1 million at least by the 50s and brisbane possibly 5 million. They have a point with the europe builds things cheaper but most of our money has to be in admin ( 450 million for 1km of busway, we all know the land would have been 20 mill max and materials about 100 mill). I just hope the australian government moves away from the australian car industry approach delivery model of "just in time" to the american model of having the cars on the lot ready to go.

[ozbob]

From 9 News Finance click here!

Industry hails high-speed rail link idea

Industry hails high-speed rail link idea

Interest groups have welcomed a high-speed rail line between Australia's east coast cities as a visionary, clean alternative to air travel.

Federal Transport Minister Anthony Albanese on Thursday released the first stage of a $20 million study into building an east coast high-speed train network.

The network linking Brisbane, Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne could cost as much as $100 billion, with trains travelling at speeds of up to 350km/h.

Tickets between Sydney and Melbourne could cost as little as $99.

"High-speed rail is good nation-building transport infrastructure," said Planning Institute of Australia (PIA) president Dyan Currie.

"Looking at it now rather than putting it on the back burner will help to address a number of planning issues.

"PIA has always fought for better public transport networks and the option of rail has a number of desirable outcomes including its obvious green credentials.

"High-speed rail is even better with its proven efficiencies in other parts of the world."

The Rail, Tram and Bus Union (RTB) said high speed rail was "the broadband of transport" and would help reduce the country's carbon footprint.

"We have seen the disruption and chaos that overtakes our society when air travel is interrupted, either as a consequence of global events like the South American ash cloud or events closer to home like the grounding of Tiger airways," RTB national secretary Bob Nanva said.

"High-speed rail provides a safe and comfortable alternative for commuters."

Infrastructure Partnerships Australia (IPA) said it was "a realistic and feasible option" for the country's east coast.

"The acid test will be the willingness of governments to put in place planning protections after the second phase of the study, to ensure that the long, straight high-speed rail corridors remain available for development in twenty or thirty years' time," IPA chief executive Brendan Lyon said.

"Failure to protect the corridors will repeat the mistakes of the past and could put high-speed rail off the agenda in the future."

Mr Lyon said the economic benefits would be substantial, with the cost of congestion in Australian cities expected to reach $20.4 billion in 2020.

"That means that we need to change the game in transport in and between our population centres," he said in a statement on Thursday.

"It's in everybody's interest that Australia gets it right on high speed rail."

[O_128]

hmm, possibly if we the world goes into a recession which is looking more likely the government will follow the ones of old and build this to keep people employed like the story bridge =), I can only hope though

[Andes]

Hello Stillwater, you are absolutely spot on.  You are totally across all the different options mooted for the Sunshine Coast. The only concern I have is that all the State government studies have been completed and again we are at the whim of the State government to initiate any sort of meaningful rollout of improvements to the Sunshine Coast line.  For some godforsaken reason Sunshine Coast residents keep voting for politicians who are in minority parties?  it least if there was some sort of federal government push to involve the Sunshine Coast region within the HRT concept surely this would have to engage the State government to get their act together and start putting together some meaningful timeframes.  At the moment the State government just keeps pushing out timeframes for improvements to the network which I think this is completely unacceptable.  Look at the Gold Coast corridor? billions spent on land acquisition and infrastructure and now they have a system which albeit crowded is highly utilised and a great asset to the region. 

I know I sound like a whinger but I just feel as if we have missed out on a huge opportunity to improve this great piece of infrastructure during the last 10 years (Sunshine Coast line and realignment)and have blown all this money on other stupid government expenditure and public servants.  I just resent it so much   Can you imagine how all the Sun Coast hinterland towns would have flourished if there was a higher-speed train service from say Nambor to Brisbane.  You wouldn't necessarily have to keep building new urban sprawl areas out towards Ipswich, all of the hinterland towns have the required infrastructure and could accommodate a degree of increased population density without necessarily impacting on the heritage and character features of the hinterland towns.  It would be a fantastic urban renewal project which would pump increased diversity and economic activity into all of these existing centres.

[Stillwater]

The Sunshine Coast hinterland towns offer fantastic lifestyle opportunities and have reasonably good facilities (high schools, sporting clubs, golf courses, etc, parks and service clubs etc.)  They dovetail perfectly with the State Government's 'housing affordability' agenda also.  They can expand without losing their soul or identity.

All the documentation I have seen talks about transport and land use planning going hand in hand, yet this is all claptrap in reality.  It doesn't happen by and large.

The state prefers to deal with the big boys and their master built communities (ie Stockland and Caloundra South).  They have the potential to be isolated communities with no existing social infrastructure.  There's chalk and cheese between these sorts of places and the railway towns of the Sunny Coast.  Fast and frequent rail transport between them will provide access to superior shopping and medical facilities at growing service towns such as Beerwah, Nambour and Cooroy.

Sunny Coast has always been second-best to the Gold Coast by a big margin -- just one example, Stocklands Park on the Sunny Coast and the potential Commonwealth Games facilities being built on the Gold Coast.  And so it is with railway traansport.  If only the people of the Sunshine Coast could organise themselves to have marginal electorates. 

[O_128]

The Sunshine Coast hinterland towns offer fantastic lifestyle opportunities and have reasonably good facilities (high schools, sporting clubs, golf courses, etc, parks and service clubs etc.)  They dovetail perfectly with the State Government's 'housing affordability' agenda also.  They can expand without losing their soul or identity.

All the documentation I have seen talks about transport and land use planning going hand in hand, yet this is all claptrap in reality.  It doesn't happen by and large.

The state prefers to deal with the big boys and their master built communities (ie Stockland and Caloundra South).  They have the potential to be isolated communities with no existing social infrastructure.  There's chalk and cheese between these sorts of places and the railway towns of the Sunny Coast.  Fast and frequent rail transport between them will provide access to superior shopping and medical facilities at growing service towns such as Beerwah, Nambour and Cooroy.

Sunny Coast has always been second-best to the Gold Coast by a big margin -- just one example, Stocklands Park on the Sunny Coast and the potential Commonwealth Games facilities being built on the Gold Coast.  And so it is with railway traansport.  If only the people of the Sunshine Coast could organise themselves to have marginal electorates. 

Its also that they have traditionally been against development making the Gold coast a better choice.

[Stillwater]

The Sunshine Coast is a network of villages and towns in close proximity.  People are not against population expansion (it rises from 320,000 to 500,000 people in 20 years on current estimates), just against large scale development.  Moderate development of the railway towns makes sense and has been happening.

[ozbob]

Sydney Morning Herald --> 314 km/h: on board China's flagship bullet train

[ozbob]

Wyong Advocate --> Business says high-speed rail link just the ticket

[ozbob]

From BusinessDay click here!

Fast rail takes driver's seat

Fast rail takes driver's seat
Andrew Heasley
August 22, 2011

IN MELBOURNE, French Transport Minister Thierry Mariani told BusinessDay Europeans were increasingly choosing the convenience of fast rail over air travel.

The corridor between Paris and London is no longer the world's busiest air route, with some surveys suggesting 90 per cent of people are choosing to travel by fast rail instead.

''The air traffic between these two countries and two cities ... is less and less because we have high-speed trains,'' Mr Mariani said.

''If ... Paris and London or Paris and Brussels disappears off the most important [air route] list ... it's because everybody takes the train.''

Ironically, Mr Mariani spoke of his enthusiasm for fast rail during a tour of French conglomerate Thales's futuristic new Melbourne air-traffic control research, development and training centre, CASIA, at the World Trade Centre.

At meetings with federal Transport Minister Anthony Albanese and his Victorian and New South Wales counterparts Terry Mulder and Gladys Berejiklian, Mr Mariani expressed the keen interest of French rail companies in being involved in an Australian high-speed rail project.

He said one of his reasons for travelling to Australia was to ''make the point about the project of high-speed railway ... [because] you are having a debate about whether it is necessary or not''.

The latest AECOM Australia feasibility study for the federal Transport Department puts the cost of establishing high-speed rail linking Melbourne, Canberra, Sydney and Brisbane anywhere between $61 billion and $108 billion, depending on the route options chosen.

The leg from Melbourne to Canberra could cost $19.5 billion to $25.6 billion, and Canberra to Sydney another $10.9 billion to $24.5 billion.

Disappointingly for Melburnians crying out for a fast train to connect the airport with the CBD and interstate routes, the study finds that while there is a rail corridor which passes close to Melbourne Airport, a fast train ''will not provide a suitable airport rail link''.

''Airport rail links must have the ability to accommodate large volumes of passengers without seat reservations and are also likely to operate at a relatively high service frequency, making frequent stops at multiple locations,'' the report says.

Still, the French rail companies are keen to be involved in the project, if it ever goes ahead.

''The French companies are interested, too, because Alstom has great experience, because one of the first fast trains in the world was in France,'' Mr Mariani said.

''The TGV [Trains a Grande Vitesse, or trains at high speed] - the first one in France was in 1981 - which means we have more than 30 years of experience.

[colinw]

Railway Gazette International -> click here

Opening of Ankara - Konya fast line completes strategic link

24 August 2001

TURKEY: Passenger services on Turkey's second 250 km/h line began on August 24, the day after the Ankara - Konya route was inaugurated by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

Built at a cost of YTL 1bn, the north-south line completes a strategic link in the rail network. Taking the direct 306 km route instead of the previous uncompetitive 688 km circuitous route via Afyon cuts Ankara - Konya journey times from 10½ h to 1½ h. TCDD plans to accelerate its initial timings to save a further 15 min, and increase the service from 10 trains/day to hourly to meet predicted demand.

The first 94 km of the new route shares the Ankara - Eskisehir fast line, branching off at a triangular junction in Polatli to run 212 km to Konya, with seven major bridges, 83 road under and over bridges, 2 030 m of tunnel and a parallel road for security purposes.

Railway systems were supplied by domestic contractor Yapi Merkezi Insaat ve Sanayi under a turnkey agreement. Invensys Rail Dimetronic supplied signalling and train controls systems, managed from TCDD's Ankara control centre, and Nortel the GSM-R radio backbone. Balfour Beatty Rail was responsible for 25 kV electrification and Areva T&D supplied substations.

Civil works work started in 2006, and an inaugural test train ran on December 17 last year. There were problems with weak soil, but Transport Minister Binali Yildirim said construction period compares favourably with European projects.

Work on the fast line from Eskisehir to Gebze outside Istanbul and the 466 km Ankara - Sivas line is now to be accelerated, with completion envisaged within three years.

Note: 1 billion Turkish Liras is approximately AUD$ 540 million

[ozbob]

From the Queensland Times click here!

Boom should fund rail link: Brown

Boom should fund rail link: Brown
30th August 2011

CASH from the resources boom should be used to build a $100 billion rail link between Brisbane and Melbourne, federal Greens leader Bob Brown says.

When a feasibility study was published by the federal government early this month, Infrastructure Minister Anthony Albanese said the plan to link the cities was worth the significant expense and would also cut carbon emissions.

On Tuesday, Senator Brown said funding for the rail link should be drawn from the resources industry, with private enterprise playing a role.

Referring to the feasibility study, Senator Brown told a high speed rail conference in Sydney on Tuesday, "Three times this report says you are not going to recover your capital costs, that $100 billion.

"It therefore is obvious this must be a nation-building project.

"Where do you get the money from?

"Well, we're in the middle of a resource boom."

Senator Brown said both Opposition Leader Tony Abbott and Prime Minister Julia Gillard must promise in the run-up to the next election that they will use money from the resources boom for the rail link.

But he also highlighted some of the potential environmental concerns the project could face.

Planners would need to consider heritage sites, wetlands, protected regions and endangered species when building the rail line, he told conference delegates.

The goverment's feasibility study outlined plans for trains travelling between Brisbane and Melbourne at up to 350km/h outside cities and at up to 200km/h in built up areas.

The line would run from Brisbane to Newcastle, through Sydney and on to Canberra before terminating in Melbourne.

Travel time between Sydney and Brisbane and Sydney and Melbourne would be reduced to three hours.

The study put the price tag for the plan at between $61 billion and $108 billion.

Senator Brown said it was sensible to assume the cost would be at the upper end of that scale.

[Gazza]

Disappointingly for Melburnians crying out for a fast train to connect the airport with the CBD and interstate routes, the study finds that while there is a rail corridor which passes close to Melbourne Airport, a fast train ''will not provide a suitable airport rail link''.

''Airport rail links must have the ability to accommodate large volumes of passengers without seat reservations and are also likely to operate at a relatively high service frequency, making frequent stops at multiple locations,'' the report says.

Stupid.

What's stopping them basically using two different trainsets (The long distance ones, and then a fleet of Javelin style trains with reduced amenties and more luggage racks) , sharing the short section of line from SXS to MEL, with appropriate passing tracks as seen on the TGV, Shinkansen etc, and a platform and barrier layout at SXS that separates the long distance and airport services?

[somebody]

If HSR is done, I think it would be stupid to serve Melbourne Airport.  You don't travel on a train from Sydney or Canberra because you want to go to the Airport.

[Golliwog]

If its going out of its way to get to Melbourne airport, then yes, stupid. But just because there's a station there doesn't mean all the trains have to use it. The Eurostar shares tracks with high speed trains that stop along the run towards the channel tunnel, but it itself doesn't. Same could happen with Melbourne, and in fact anywhere along the HSR alignment. Yes it does reduce capacity for through trains, but are we really expecting 24tph on HSR? I think not.

[SurfRail]

If its going out of its way to get to Melbourne airport, then yes, stupid. But just because there's a station there doesn't mean all the trains have to use it. The Eurostar shares tracks with high speed trains that stop along the run towards the channel tunnel, but it itself doesn't. Same could happen with Melbourne, and in fact anywhere along the HSR alignment. Yes it does reduce capacity for through trains, but are we really expecting 24tph on HSR? I think not.

Standard gauge custom built EMUs would be the go here, with a decent terminus at Southern Cross.

[Gazza]

If HSR is done, I think it would be stupid to serve Melbourne Airport.  You don't travel on a train from Sydney or Canberra because you want to go to the Airport.

But there has been talk of an alignment that would swing out of Melbourne in that direction though....Its gotta get out onto the plains somehow, and if its going in that general direction then a spur off to the Airport would make sense IMO.

[colinw]

Railway Gazette International -> Electro-diesel Talgo Unveiled

SPAIN: Patentes Talgo is converting 15 RENFE Class 130 gauge-changing high speed trainsets to the Class 730 hybrid by replacing the end seating cars with two new trailers each housing an MTU 12V4000R43L engine and traction alternator.

With a continuous rating of 3600 kW, the Class 730 has a top speed of 180 km/h in diesel mode, weighing 385 tonnes when empty compared to the 312 tonnes of the Class 130.

The Class 730 offers a total of 262 seats in place of 299 for the Class 130.

Or to put it in in Australian terms: "impossible, no such thing exists or could ever exist".

Existing dual gauge Talgos are dual voltage (3KV DC on the 5'6", 25KV AC on the standard gauge).  Not sure if this set retains its 3KV capability or always runs as diesel when on the 5'6".

[somebody]

What's the reason for bothering?

[colinw]

Allows extension of high speed service to a lot of destinations off the standard gauge high speed network.

Spain has a very large existing 5'6" network, much of it not electrified, and a lot of it good for up to 200 km/h or so.  Combined with the newer high speed lines these dual gauge Talgos allow through journeys at high speed on the SG, which can then turn off onto the existing 5'6" to access their destination.

These trains allow high speed service to be extended to many destinations at much lower cost than building a new high speed line, and with more attractive service than enforcing the change.

The stated policy is to get ALL major regional cities within 3 hours journey of Madrid and 5 hours of Barcelona. These trains are part of that strategy.

I expect such arguments & logic to be completely alien & unthinkable in Australia or anywhere else in the backward looking English speaking world.

[somebody]

Interesting that a few years ago Barcelona-Madrid was the busiest air route in the world.  Now, it's 11th.

You aren't the only person that comments on the English speaking world having poor PT.

[O_128]

Interesting that a few years ago Barcelona-Madrid was the busiest air route in the world.  Now, it's 11th.

You aren't the only person that comments on the English speaking world having poor PT.

It amazes me how far behind english countries are.

[AnonymouslyBad]

Interesting that a few years ago Barcelona-Madrid was the busiest air route in the world.  Now, it's 11th.

You aren't the only person that comments on the English speaking world having poor PT.

Yep. And considering our modest population, Australian cities feature rather prominently in the world's busiest air routes.

[colinw]

More on the Spanish dual gauge high speed sets:

Railway Gazette International -> click here

21 September 2011

SPAIN: During a test run on the high speed line between Ourense and A Coruña on September 20, Development Minister José Blanco announced that RENFE would introduce Class 730 gauge-changing electro-diesel trainsets on services between Madrid and the northwestern region of Galicia in mid-2012.

The trainsets would enable Madrid - Galicia journey time to be cut to less than 5 h, using high speed infrastructure between Madrid and Olmedo, the non-electrified 1 668 mm gauge route from Olmedo to Ourense, and the Ourense - A Coruña high speed line which is due to open on December 10.

Under a €74m project managed by RENFE's Integria rolling stock maintenance and assembly business, 15 Talgo/Bombardier Class 130 trainsets are being converted to the Class 730 by replacing the end trailer cars with two new cars each housing a 1 800 kW MTU 12V 4000 R43L diesel engine and traction alternator.

The Class 730 has a top speed of 180 km/h in diesel mode, rising to 220 km/h under 3 kV DC and 250 km/h on 1 435 mm gauge high speed infrastructure.

A total of seven Class 130s have so far entered the production line, with three now available for testing. Medium-distance services between Ourense and A Coruña are to be operated with four-car Class 121 trainsets, each offering a total of 281 seats.

[frereOP]

If its going out of its way to get to Melbourne airport, then yes, stupid. But just because there's a station there doesn't mean all the trains have to use it. The Eurostar shares tracks with high speed trains that stop along the run towards the channel tunnel, but it itself doesn't. Same could happen with Melbourne, and in fact anywhere along the HSR alignment. Yes it does reduce capacity for through trains, but are we really expecting 24tph on HSR? I think not.

Standard gauge custom built EMUs would be the go here, with a decent terminus at Southern Cross.

You don't want the HSR to be a shuttle to and from the city (a trip of what would about 30 mins by suburban trains and probably not a lot less by HSR.  However, it might make sense to have the HSR pick up (but not set down) coming from SC and set down (but not pick up) heading to SC if there was a station at Tullamarine.  This would enable passengers (particularly those on international flights) to connect with HSR to and from places like Albury and Canberra.   This would also make sense if Canberra (or Goulburn) were selected as sites for new International airports so people could connect with domestic destinations not serviced directly from that airport.

[frereOP]

Im slowly working my way through the report and one thing i feel that is unnecessary is the tunnelling to get into the capital cities, surely it would be cheaper to build the tracks parallel to the GC line and then be either parallel to the pacific/south east freeways or elevated above it then a bridge next the CC bridge run next to the REX then pass over into Roma street or depending id CRR is built just terminate it wooloongabba, it would only be 10min to the airport and will be destination in itself by the time we have HSR.

My other thing is that I would like to see predicted air travel prices as HSR will definitely be cheaper by then due to fuel costs.

If you want to maintain a reasonable amount of speed in dense metropolitan areas, for reasons of safety and amenity tunnels are generally the way to go.  The M1/M3 alignment is way too circuitious to allow 200kph running.

Not necessarily true.  Tunnels create their own problems - particularly with respect to air pressure issues.  Train speeds on many HSR lines are reduced in tunnels - eg Eurostar has a speed of 170 kpm in the Chunnel.  I was on a Shinkansen from Kobe to Tokyo and the build up of air pressure when my train passed another in a tunnel caused the window on the motorman's cabin to implode and we were speed restricted all the way to Tokyo causing us to be 3 h late.

[frereOP]

The $60 - $110billion cost of an HSR will be one argument used by politicians to can it.  They really don't have any imagination or foresight and they really don't care what the indirect benefits are (eg reduction in road trauma and road damage costs etc).  All they are interested in is what will it cost and will it be profitable - you now "where's the money coming from?".

What would be an interesting exercise, would be for someone to calculate what the cost was (expressed in 2011 dollars) of building the existing standard guage rail line from Melbourne to Sydney and Sydney to Brisbane.  I'll bet its probably not a lot different!

PhD anyone?

[SurfRail]

Im slowly working my way through the report and one thing i feel that is unnecessary is the tunnelling to get into the capital cities, surely it would be cheaper to build the tracks parallel to the GC line and then be either parallel to the pacific/south east freeways or elevated above it then a bridge next the CC bridge run next to the REX then pass over into Roma street or depending id CRR is built just terminate it wooloongabba, it would only be 10min to the airport and will be destination in itself by the time we have HSR.

My other thing is that I would like to see predicted air travel prices as HSR will definitely be cheaper by then due to fuel costs.

If you want to maintain a reasonable amount of speed in dense metropolitan areas, for reasons of safety and amenity tunnels are generally the way to go.  The M1/M3 alignment is way too circuitious to allow 200kph running.

Not necessarily true.  Tunnels create their own problems - particularly with respect to air pressure issues.  Train speeds on many HSR lines are reduced in tunnels - eg Eurostar has a speed of 170 kpm in the Chunnel.  I was on a Shinkansen from Kobe to Tokyo and the build up of air pressure when my train passed another in a tunnel caused the window on the motorman's cabin to implode and we were speed restricted all the way to Tokyo causing us to be 3 h late.

Certainly, but you are not going to get a surface alignment for anywhere near 170kph approaching Brisbane via the M1/M3 (or any other alignment without taking out half the southern suburbs) are you?

Once you have cleared Upper Mt Gravatt you wouldn't really have an issue.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The speeds in the tunnels approaching the cities here won't be designed for running at HSR speeds (additional costs of making a wider tunnel etc are quite substantial). After they leave the main station they would slowly build up and maintain a constant speed (can't remember exactly but it was around 160ish?) which would only be for about 10 or so minutes and once they have exited the 25km tunnel they would go full tilt onto the next stop. As surfrail said without getting rid of complete suburbs and massive earthworks just to get a straight track for HSR through the suburbs a tunnel is the best, cheapest and safest option in the long run.

[frereOP]

...without getting rid of complete suburbs and massive earthworks just to get a straight track for HSR through the suburbs a tunnel is the best, cheapest and safest option in the long run.

Not necessarily true.  How would the cost of a tunnel compare to an elevated track.  Clem 7 cost $3.6 Billion for 6km of double tunnel.  The Airtrain was 12km for around $100 Million at the time (albeit single track) and why couldn't you run the HSR above or beside the Pacific Motorway for some part of the distance?