High Speed and Fast Rail

[O_128]

It says the price has gone down, but it doesn't say why.... that's interesting... why would the price go DOWN?

competition. Newcastle to Canberra would make sense by 2020 though, Probably wwould make a profit to.

[Golliwog]

As high speed tracks become more popular the knowledge,etc of how to build them becomes more common, and those who build them gain more expertise in what they're doing. Plus IIRC when they first started it there were a number of different options that were undertaken to see which worked best etc. I suppose the easiest explanation is just how a top of the range computer from 5-10 years ago is now cheap as chips.

[#Metro]

HSR (as in very fast trains) is NOT going to share track with Citytrain.  It will be on its own track.  HSR will NOT sit over the backyard fence from someone.  HSR PROBABLY won't leave from Roma Street Station, but from some stand-alone station, where the comings and goings of suburban trains won't interfere with its operation.  It is NOT a commuter train.  Those who think it will run to Cairns are in fairyland.  Most likely it will radiate from Sydney and stop ONLY at major centres.  And it is decades away from those on this side of the border.

I agree. I suspect they would go for standard gauge or whatever. So no sharing! Remember it has to run to other states as well!

All this talk of tunnels and resumptions on a colossal scale... well... fanciful much?
Just because it is cheap(er) does not necessarily make it sensible either. I can't wait to read the report though.

competition. Newcastle to Canberra would make sense by 2020 though, Probably wwould make a profit to.

Competition in what? I thought it was about construction materials here...

[Stillwater]

The benefits of HSR do not accrue, in the main, from the distance between termini, but rather the population served.  Noosa and Tweed Heads have roughly the same population - about 60,000.  Granted, there is a significant population between.  The state government has committed to, at some stage in the future, operate tilt-trains at 160kph to reduce the journey from both coasts to Brisbane in 'about an hour'.  Why, then, would we built CoastConnect AND also HSR just for that limited market?  Canberra-Sydney and Sydney-Newcastle have substantial and frequent air travel.  No-one flies Maroochydore-Brisbane and Coolangatta-Brisbane.  People use land-based transport modes.  Canberra has a large public service base that undertakes frequent travel elsewhere around the country.  Qantas virtually operates shuttle aircraft between Canberra and Sydney, where these travellers plug into flights heading elsewhere.  The demographics of Noosa and Tweed Heads are different that of Canberra also.  HSR competes with aircraft. If ever built between Sydney and Brisbane, HSR will pass through Gold Coast-Tweed enroute.  The Gold Coast/Tweed never could be considered as a terminus destination from Brisbane, only as an intermediate stop on the way to southern population centres.  HSR would extend to Noosa only because that is where southern visitors may want to go.  (They fly Melbourne-Maroochydore and Sydney-Maroochydore.)  Brisbane-Sunshine Coast travel would be incidental on HSR, but, as indicated above, people would use CoastConnect in preference because the 'about an hour' travel would be convenient, and could be achieved for a turn-up-and-go Go-card fare.  Greater Melbourne has about four million people, Greater Sydney the same.  South-East Queensland is on the way to having four million people too.  The linkage of these major population centres by HSR could be possible and we will find out soon enough.  Brisbane-Cairns is greater than the distance between Brisbane and Melbourne.  The flaw in the argument about HSR up the east coast of Queensland is that Rockhampton (roughly half way) is not a city of four million and Cairns is not a city of four million.  At best, along the east coast of Queensland there are about 1.5 million.  And how many of them are wanting to travel to Brisbane on a regular basis to justify the cost of HSR?

[#Metro]

I think we should be VERY careful to assume that high air corridors = good HSR route and low air corridors = bad HSR route.

Air is great over long distances to major centres. Over shorter distances it just isn't economical because land based transport modes simply have better service characteristics (frequency, ability to make multiple stops and pool people in the same vehicle) and are more convenient and probably significantly cheaper too (does anyone fly from Coolangatta/Tweed to Sunshine Coast, I think not!!!)

And this is why I think any concept of HSR (note, CONCEPT we haven't got to sorting out whether we can afford it or it is the most important thing to spend money on etc etc) needs to stop looking at air corridors and Europe/China/America in some fanciful "we can be great like them" fantasy and start thinking about  HOW CAN THIS MAKE SENSE.

Shorter distances make a LOT of sense IMHO. So something like Cairns-Townsville-Mackay-Rockhampton-Gladstone-Sunshine Coast-Brisbane-Gold Coast-Tweed-Byron Bay DOES make sense and this would be a mobility improvement over the status quo (tilts/crappy slow interurbans) . You can get a network effect on the train as the train picks up people from these towns and places them all in the same vehicle- with a plane it is very rare to have multiple landing and takeoffs (because of crewing/turn around times, refuelling/landing and takeoff procedures etc).

There is also a big tourist market there that does the North-South Brisbane Cairns... mostly on 'hop on, hop off' buses at the moment though. A HSR train would blast that market and possibly some air share as well.

We need to think about PURPOSE and MOBILITY and how we might need to adapt the concept to our needs, rather than do a "copy Superpowers of the world" so we can stroke our own egos and live in some denial that we can have the sexy train even if it does not represent an improvement in mobility.

[O_128]

Tramtrain remember that HSR is all about the average speed, whats the point of having a train capable of 400kph only to be stopping every 5 mins. There is absolutely no point continuing past brisbane because the sushine coast will have 160kph tilt trains. There is to smaller population any further north to justify the high costs of HSR. Brisbane, Sydney ,Melbourne is the only route that makes any sense. And a stillwater said  a gold coast station is incidental and would more be used for travelers from the south than Brisbane trips.

[#Metro]

Tramtrain remember that HSR is all about the average speed, whats the point of having a train capable of 400kph only to be stopping every 5 mins. There is absolutely no point continuing past brisbane because the sushine coast will have 160kph tilt trains. There is to smaller population any further north to justify the high costs of HSR. Brisbane, Sydney ,Melbourne is the only route that makes any sense. And a stillwater said  a gold coast station is incidental and would more be used for travelers from the south than Brisbane trips.

Disagree. There is a smaller population, but that's not what I want to know we are assuming that population and city size is a good proxy measure for demand. And that might not be true in this case due to the tourism element.

There is a lot of North-South movement between Byron-Gold Coast-Brisbane-and then up north to Cairns as people are going on holiday, backpacking and tourism. Why do we need 160 kph tilt trains if we can HSR ? Are we really going to reinvent the wheel twice by having tilts AND HSR running parallel? Maybe we should dump the tilts if this idea shows promise.

Is the purpose to serve people or is the purpose to reach absolute maximum land rail speeds & 400 km/hr zooming train?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Why do we need 160 kph tilt trains if we can HSR ? Are we really going to reinvent the wheel twice by having tilts AND HSR running parallel? Maybe we should dump the tilts if this idea shows promise.

I guess that depends on who owns the network, what stations and areas HSR would serve and where the track is vs the Tilts.

[Stillwater]

What are the facts of HSR?  This paper sets out the issues upon which a sound assessment should be made.

http://www.patrec.org/web_docs/atrf/papers/2004/Douglas%20&%20Thornton%20(2004).pdf

[O_128]

What are the facts of HSR?  This paper sets out the issues upon which a sound assessment should be made.

http://www.patrec.org/web_docs/atrf/papers/2004/Douglas%20&%20Thornton%20(2004).pdf

The study seems stupid, Beenleigh, robina and cooloongatta? at that rate it will take 3 days to get to sydney.

HSR is for intercity. Germanys trains are called ICE , inter city EXPRESS.

[SurfRail]

The study seems stupid, Beenleigh, robina and cooloongatta? at that rate it will take 3 days to get to sydney.

Agree.  The only 3 logical stations within SEQ to my mind are one each for the Sunshine Coast (somewhere at least 90km distant, probably further), Brisbane (CBD) and Gold Coast (Airport).  Next stop out of the Gold Coast should probably be one serving both Byron and Ballina.

[frereOP]

What are the facts of HSR?  This paper sets out the issues upon which a sound assessment should be made.

http://www.patrec.org/web_docs/atrf/papers/2004/Douglas%20&%20Thornton%20(2004).pdf

The study seems stupid, Beenleigh, robina and cooloongatta? at that rate it will take 3 days to get to sydney.

HSR is for intercity. Germanys trains are called ICE , inter city EXPRESS.

Yes and Deusche Bahn's philosophy is quite different to SCNF.  ICE trains operate are more like traditional trains with lots of intermediate stops.  SCNF's TGV, JNR's Hikari and Nozomi Shinkansen services and Eurostar from London to Paris on the other hand operate in an "airline philosophy" mode with an end to end timetable invovig few if any intermediate stops.  For example, ICE from Interlaken (in Switzerland) to Berlin is about 9 hours because of all the stops despite the speed.

Going from Brisbane to Sydney operating like a TGV, Shinkansen (Hikari or Nozomi) or Eurostar style service, stops would be Gold Coast, Coffs Harbour, Newcastle and Sydney.  ICE-style would add places like Byron Bay, Port Macquarie, Gosford etc and increase trip time substantially.  JNR operate Shinkansen as a mixture of all stops and end-to-end services with all-stops Kodama trains operating between Hikari and Nozomi services.

[frereOP]

Position of second Sydney airport will be tied to HSR in one way or another, either conveying passengers to the airport en route to somewhere else, or having HSR along east coast delaying a second airport for some time.
Read: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/second-airport-rises-again-20110404-1cyoc.html
   

I was thinking about this later this evening and I thought that maybe the conception is wrong. HSR is better over shorter distances and that would make something like up the coast Brisbane to Cairns, or maybe linking Sydney to Newcastle Airport or something like that much more sensible than an inter-capital thing. Would you HSR between Sunshine Coast/Brisbane/Gold Coast/Tweed/Byron Bay? I don't think an air route would compete there, it is too short for planes to be worthwhile, too long for interurban trains, buses would be 4x slower at best, car wouldn't do much.... so there IS maybe a space there.

Don't just copy... think!

And you know what... something like that WOULD be a mobility improvement over the status quo (current situation).

That is the philosophy of HSR, find routes that provide a cost benefit over air travel - especially for business travel.  SYD-NCL or SYD-CBR are ideal routes because:-

• Travel time (terminal to terminal which is usually city centre to city centre for HSR) is comparable or less than airport to airport (which is usually out of the city such as Newcastle, Tullamarine, Brisbane or Canberra).  Note that the argument that you have to arrive at the airport 30mins before the flight increases air travel time compared to rail is a nonsense because you also need to do that for HSR too (eg Eurostar)
• Business travelers can use PC's and phones en route
• Population density is sufficient

[O_128]

Position of second Sydney airport will be tied to HSR in one way or another, either conveying passengers to the airport en route to somewhere else, or having HSR along east coast delaying a second airport for some time.
Read: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/second-airport-rises-again-20110404-1cyoc.html
   

I was thinking about this later this evening and I thought that maybe the conception is wrong. HSR is better over shorter distances and that would make something like up the coast Brisbane to Cairns, or maybe linking Sydney to Newcastle Airport or something like that much more sensible than an inter-capital thing. Would you HSR between Sunshine Coast/Brisbane/Gold Coast/Tweed/Byron Bay? I don't think an air route would compete there, it is too short for planes to be worthwhile, too long for interurban trains, buses would be 4x slower at best, car wouldn't do much.... so there IS maybe a space there.

Don't just copy... think!

And you know what... something like that WOULD be a mobility improvement over the status quo (current situation).

That is the philosophy of HSR, find routes that provide a cost benefit over air travel - especially for business travel.  SYD-NCL or SYD-CBR are ideal routes because:-

• Travel time (terminal to terminal which is usually city centre to city centre for HSR) is comparable or less than airport to airport (which is usually out of the city such as Newcastle, Tullamarine, Brisbane or Canberra).  Note that the argument that you have to arrive at the airport 30mins before the flight increases air travel time compared to rail is a nonsense because you also need to do that for HSR too (eg Eurostar)
• Business travelers can use PC's and phones en route
• Population density is sufficient

Eurostar is only 30min because you have to go through customs and security, All mainland european trains are turn up and go. I brought a ticket to florence 5 min before the train left.

[Zoiks]

Sydney -> Newcastle should most definently be the first link built.
There are far more benefits to HSR over air then just price or mobility.

[petey3801]

To those saying 'Why have Tilts and HSR running parallel', you don't. You have them running on the same track. Idealy, if it were to happen, the HSR would go to Sunny Coast with the HSR services going, say, SC-BNE-SYD-MEL and the "Tilt's" running SC-BNE-GC on the same tracks. Not difficult. They do it in England on HS1 with the short distance trains running slower than the Eurostar.

[SurfRail]

To those saying 'Why have Tilts and HSR running parallel', you don't. You have them running on the same track. Idealy, if it were to happen, the HSR would go to Sunny Coast with the HSR services going, say, SC-BNE-SYD-MEL and the "Tilt's" running SC-BNE-GC on the same tracks. Not difficult. They do it in England on HS1 with the short distance trains running slower than the Eurostar.

This.

There is some scope for corridor (not track) sharing with the existing network, but I would be keeping it to that.  To maximise the investment in the new infrastructure, I see no issue with having an HSR with 3 Queensland stops and the "CoastLink" services north and south being provided as standard gauge 160kph or thereabouts services (faster if possible without too much greater expense).  Allows you to separate GC from Beenleigh and SC from Caboolture for good as an incidental benefit.

[O_128]

To those saying 'Why have Tilts and HSR running parallel', you don't. You have them running on the same track. Idealy, if it were to happen, the HSR would go to Sunny Coast with the HSR services going, say, SC-BNE-SYD-MEL and the "Tilt's" running SC-BNE-GC on the same tracks. Not difficult. They do it in England on HS1 with the short distance trains running slower than the Eurostar.

This.

There is some scope for corridor (not track) sharing with the existing network, but I would be keeping it to that.  To maximise the investment in the new infrastructure, I see no issue with having an HSR with 3 Queensland stops and the "CoastLink" services north and south being provided as standard gauge 160kph or thereabouts services (faster if possible without too much greater expense).  Allows you to separate GC from Beenleigh and SC from Caboolture for good as an incidental benefit.

Good idea as long as the stations are built so that the stopping services move off the tracks and wont slow down the intercity services then fine.

Though the most likely route to travel south will be a bridge parallel to the existing CC bridge and then follow the highway all the way to cooloongatta airport, though i see this as no issue as the existing GC line and HSR will serve different markets and will allow for interchange with light rail and HSR at coolangata.

Seems we are finally making some progress on this.

As with the Sunshine coast. run the HSR tracks via trouts road then run in the existing corridor to the coast. The main issue is that there can be NO sharing between HSR tracks and normal tracks. Though this will be avoided as the HSR will be standard gauge.

[ozbob]

Though this will be avoided as the HSR will be standard gauge.

You're jiving me?  I was hanging out for 5' 3" ... 

[O_128]

Though this will be avoided as the HSR will be standard gauge.

You're jiving me?  I was hanging out for 5' 3" ... 

, I guess we are doing exactly what the railway finders did, building a different gauge to stop other people using the track 

[#Metro]

Lets not repeat the mistakes of the past- one gauge please.

[#Metro]

Sydney -> Newcastle should most definently be the first link built.
There are far more benefits to HSR over air then just price or mobility.

There may well be but those are the main one. HSR should not be built as some decoration or art piece.

[ozbob]

Lets not repeat the mistakes of the past- one gauge please.

It is a joke TT.  (But secretly I have always wanted to see just how fast a R would go ... lol).

If HSR is built it will be standard guage I have no doubt.

[Stillwater]

Yep, standard gauge, on its own track, privately operated (after government involvement at the track construction stage), with fares set at a rate to earn a good return on the private investment.

[Gazza]

There is some scope for corridor (not track) sharing with the existing network, but I would be keeping it to that.  To maximise the investment in the new infrastructure, I see no issue with having an HSR with 3 Queensland stops and the "CoastLink" services north and south being provided as standard gauge 160kph or thereabouts services (faster if possible without too much greater expense).  Allows you to separate GC from Beenleigh and SC from Caboolture for good as an incidental benefit.

Good idea as long as the stations are built so that the stopping services move off the tracks and wont slow down the intercity services then fine.

Though the most likely route to travel south will be a bridge parallel to the existing CC bridge and then follow the highway all the way to cooloongatta airport, though i see this as no issue as the existing GC line and HSR will serve different markets and will allow for interchange with light rail and HSR at coolangata.

Seems we are finally making some progress on this.

As with the Sunshine coast. run the HSR tracks via trouts road then run in the existing corridor to the coast. The main issue is that there can be NO sharing between HSR tracks and normal tracks. Though this will be avoided as the HSR will be standard gauge.

I'm having some DeJa Vu.

Did I not say in this topic
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6075.0

But there is the potential for it to be run as high speed commuter, as is done in Japan, and on High Speed 1 in the UK.

Perhaps I need to make some clarification about how high speed commuter is incorporated into a HSR network. The standard design is to have high speed turnouts, so at each station the track is quadded, with through trains whizzing down the middle and trains stopping diverting off the mainline. Acceleration and deceleration track of appropriate length is provided before and after the station.
Eg:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebbsfleet_International

The HSR network would have less commuter stations....Eg on the Gold Coast there wouldn't be stops at places like Ormeau or Coomera, on the Sunshine Coast it wouldn't stop at any of the smaller towns.
-There would be interchange stations with the existing rail network. On the Gold Coast I imagine HSR would mirror the existing heavy rail, though on the Sunshine Coast it might go cross country a bit and not strictly mirror the north coast line and CAMCOS.

So when I post it, it gets poopooed, but now it's a good idea? Ah well, at least people are coming round to the idea 

Good idea as long as the stations are built so that the stopping services move off the tracks and wont slow down the intercity services then fine.

What you are describing is a standard feature on a high speed railway.
Eg, observe on the TGV:

On the line itself, it's dual track as you'd expect:
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Gare+du+Creusot&aq=&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=61.229641,135.263672&ie=UTF8&hq=Gare+du+Creusot&hnear=&radius=15000&ll=46.749017,4.504722&spn=0.002948,0.008256&t=h&z=18

At the station tracks are quadded, middle tracks are for full speed running, outside tracks are for stoppers:
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Gare+du+Creusot&aq=&sll=-25.335448,135.745076&sspn=61.229641,135.263672&ie=UTF8&hq=Gare+du+Creusot&hnear=&radius=15000&ll=46.765133,4.500709&spn=0.002947,0.008256&t=h&z=18

Another example

Approach to station:
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=gare+du+vendome+villers&aq=&sll=46.279106,4.781139&sspn=0.002973,0.008256&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Gare+de+Vend%C3%B4me-Villiers,+41100+Vend%C3%B4me,+Loir-et-Cher,+Centre,+France&ll=47.811537,1.016359&spn=0.002889,0.008256&t=h&z=18

Station itself:
http://maps.google.com.au/maps?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&q=Villiers-sur-Loir&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Villiers-sur-Loir,+Loir-et-Cher,+Centre,+France&gl=au&ll=47.822149,1.020151&spn=0.002889,0.008256&t=h&z=18

[O_128]

o of course gazza but this is australia, wouldnt be surprised to see hsr built single track

[Stillwater]

Previously, French TGV technology was considered suitable for Australia.  You won't see this baby stopping at Beenleigh on the way to the Gold Coast.   

[#Metro]

o of course gazza but this is australia, wouldnt be surprised to see hsr built single track

QUOTE OF THE WEEK!!! 

[ozbob]

Joint Transport Research Centre --> Interurban Passenger Transport: Economic Assessment of Major Infrastructure Projects

[ozbob]

From the Melbourne Age click here!

The need for speed in rail link

The need for speed in rail link
Clay Lucas
June 24, 2011 - 12:00AM

A HIGH-speed rail line between Australia's major east coast cities must link Sydney to either Melbourne or Brisbane within three hours if it is to be viable, according to the head of French transport and electricity giant Alstom.

Speaking in Melbourne yesterday, Chris Raine, Alstom's Australian chief executive, said this country had debated for far too long about the need for a fast train between its biggest cities.

"We really are a long way behind," Mr Raine said. "Eventually we'll build it, and then we'll all be wondering why we didn't do it earlier."

The fastest track speed on an Australian railway line is 160km/h, but trains rarely travel that fast. The fastest speed on the Victorian section of the 900-kilometre Melbourne-to-Sydney route is 115km/h.

Alstom is one of the world's biggest train and tram builders — it yesterday also signed a new contract with the Baillieu government to deliver another seven X'Trapolis trains for Melbourne's suburban network.

Alstom has also built 650 high-speed trains over the last four decades, for fast-rail networks in a dozen countries.

Mr Raine said that for rail to compete with aviation on Australia's eastern coast, it needed to run at speeds of 350km/h. "If we are going to have high-speed rail in Australia, [we need] technology to get between the major cities in three hours or less." Speeds of around 350km/h were achieved in Europe and parts of Asia, he said.

He said the populations and distances between Melbourne, Canberra and Sydney were similar to the Spanish cities of Barcelona, Madrid and Seville — which are linked by fast rail.

He said Sydney-to-Newcastle and Melbourne-to-Sydney would both be viable fast-rail routes.

Newcastle to Sydney compared well with a fast-rail route built between Paris and the declining mining and industrial city of Lille. Lille had been revived by fast rail link, he said. "It completely reversed the fortunes of Lille," he said, which has become an information technology hub and a dormitory suburb for Paris.

Mr Raine said events such as the volcanic ash cloud from Chile had made it all too clear Australia could not rely on aviation alone to meet its transport needs.

"Who would have thought that a volcano in South America could bring our major air corridors to a halt? In modern, connected economies, we need transport links that can survive various types of mishaps."

The federal government is working on a feasibility study — which has had support from the opposition and minor parties — for a high-speed rail link along Australia's eastern seaboard.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/the-need-for-speed-in-rail-link-20110623-1ghr4.html#ixzz1Q7bFRs7W

[ozbob]

'Adam talks High Speed Rail on ABC'

http://greensmps.org.au/content/greencast/adam-talks-high-speed-rail-abc

[frereOP]

Previously, French TGV technology was considered suitable for Australia.  You won't see this baby stopping at Beenleigh on the way to the Gold Coast.   

I love the look of that ICE. I guess this is the TGV Est line between Paris and Strasborg which is 600km in 2.5 h @ 310kph non-stop and shared with Deuche Bahn to Berlin. You are right, HSR operates differently to current interurban services with long sectors. The secret to going fast is to not go slow and stopping at stations is going very slow. Unless it is the terminus, it has only 3 chances of being an HSR station- Buckley's, none and sweet FA.

[O_128]

As much as I hate the greens this is the one thing that I really believe in. And they are right we arent going to realize how good it will be till we have it.

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> China unveils luxury high-speed Beijing-Shanghai train

[ozbob]

AusRAIL: The time has come for high speed rail in Australia

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Chinese train crash kills 16

AT least 16 people are dead after two Chinese high-speed trains collided, hurling two carriages off a viaduct.

The derailed train had been crippled by a lightning strike and was stopped when the second one ploughed into it from behind, state media reports said ...

[Golliwog]

Couriermail --> Chinese train crash kills 16

AT least 16 people are dead after two Chinese high-speed trains collided, hurling two carriages off a viaduct.

The derailed train had been crippled by a lightning strike and was stopped when the second one ploughed into it from behind, state media reports said ...

Now up to 32.

[O_128]

This is the first HSR incident I have heard of though, 1 incident in 50 years is pretty good.

[Golliwog]

This is the first HSR incident I have heard of though, 1 incident in 50 years is pretty good.

Apparently it isn't though. From the CM article:

In April 2008, 72 people were killed and more than 400 injured when one train derailed and another collided with it in the eastern province of Shandong.

[O_128]

This is the first HSR incident I have heard of though, 1 incident in 50 years is pretty good.

Apparently it isn't though. From the CM article:

In April 2008, 72 people were killed and more than 400 injured when one train derailed and another collided with it in the eastern province of Shandong.

Still 2 incidents in 50 years, How many plane crashes have there been.