High Speed and Fast Rail

[#Metro]

While the report will go to government at the end of July, government will take a bit of time to digest it, so expect public release in about late September (or Melbourne Cup Day if it wants to bury the report).  At the same time, the government has also called for a feasibility study into a second Sydney airport, so the two will be weighed together.

Oh what another study into, Sydney Airport AGAIN!?

See, if you are a politician and don't like something, you just bury it in a pile of studies.

[Stillwater]

That way you can say:

1)  The government is looking actively at that proposal, so it would be unwise until we have all the facts.
2)  The government has only just got the report, so it will take some time for the government to consider all the implications.  I won't be rushed into taking a position one way or the other.
3)  The report is comprehensive and has raised issues that has implications for the private sector.  We are consulting that sector before releasing it publicly.
4)  (If it doesn't like the report).  The government will honour its commitment to release the report publicly, but because there are sensitive matters contained therein, a summary document (with the embarrassing bits removed) is being prepared and will be released in due course.
5)  This report will be discussed at the next round of COAG, due to its national and cross-border ramifications.  It will be released after that process, but only with the agreement of the states.

Oh yes, there are lots of ways to use a report or study, or feasibility .......

[Stillwater]

Position of second Sydney airport will be tied to HSR in one way or another, either conveying passengers to the airport en route to somewhere else, or having HSR along east coast delaying a second airport for some time.
Read: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/second-airport-rises-again-20110404-1cyoc.html

[Stillwater]

The correct link re Sydney second airport:

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/second-airport-rises-again-20110404-1cyoc.html

[#Metro]

Position of second Sydney airport will be tied to HSR in one way or another, either conveying passengers to the airport en route to somewhere else, or having HSR along east coast delaying a second airport for some time.
Read: http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/second-airport-rises-again-20110404-1cyoc.html
   

I was thinking about this later this evening and I thought that maybe the conception is wrong. HSR is better over shorter distances and that would make something like up the coast Brisbane to Cairns, or maybe linking Sydney to Newcastle Airport or something like that much more sensible than an inter-capital thing. Would you HSR between Sunshine Coast/Brisbane/Gold Coast/Tweed/Byron Bay? I don't think an air route would compete there, it is too short for planes to be worthwhile, too long for interurban trains, buses would be 4x slower at best, car wouldn't do much.... so there IS maybe a space there.

Don't just copy... think!

And you know what... something like that WOULD be a mobility improvement over the status quo (current situation).

[HappyTrainGuy]

Would HSR be cheap enough for passengers to switch over from CityTrain to go to and from the coasts? Why build all new inferstructure when there's already some provided?

[#Metro]

Speed. People are willing to pay for that, which is why they pay $20 000 plus huge fees every year to drive a car in congestion. people will pay more for a better service.

[HappyTrainGuy]

But how much are they willing to pay. And remember there won't be the high frequency like CityTrains. They would have to fit into QRs timetable as its QR track (When they use it).

Why doesn't everyone catch the Tilt to/from Nambour/Gympie?

[#Metro]

If there are spare seats (and I guess there would be) then it WOULD make sense to discount them and sell them to commuters if they exist. The level of loss made on those seats would be lower than if the seat otherwise carried air into Brisbane.

To calculate willingness to pay one needs to figure out how much someone is already spending in a car driving in from these places in both time and fuel, assign a value to time and then figure out if the train was faster. If the train is faster then that's a big incentive to use and pay for it. Alternatively a survey could be done, but this might not be as reliable. The current fare is $12 something on GoCard, that takes 2 hours almost... would people pay $20 for 1 hour or a 30 minute trip? At that level it might not be unaffordable when you consider that parking in the city is eye-watering and a professional job in the CBD might pay easily at least $20-$30 per hour

Are you really going to run HSR on QR Track? In that case *puff* goes the idea of 400 km/hour trains as soon as the train reaches Brisbane it will be crawling along, limited to the speed of the CityTrain in front of it, this could easily be 30 minutes ...

[Arnz]

If there are spare seats (and I guess there would be) then it WOULD make sense to discount them and sell them to commuters if they exist. The level of loss made on those seats would be lower than if the seat otherwise carried air into Brisbane.

Are you really going to run HSR on QR Track? In that case *puff* goes the idea of 400 km/hour trains as soon as the train reaches Brisbane it will be crawling along, limited to the speed of the CityTrain in front of it, this could easily be 30 minutes ...

Not to mention the Single Track from somewhere in Central Queensland to Beerburrum!  Especially once you hit south of Gympie North.

[O_128]

If there are spare seats (and I guess there would be) then it WOULD make sense to discount them and sell them to commuters if they exist. The level of loss made on those seats would be lower than if the seat otherwise carried air into Brisbane.

Are you really going to run HSR on QR Track? In that case *puff* goes the idea of 400 km/hour trains as soon as the train reaches Brisbane it will be crawling along, limited to the speed of the CityTrain in front of it, this could easily be 30 minutes ...

hell to the no. HSR is to be completely separated. south it would follow the pacific highway and north the bruce

[Stillwater]

Why would people not catch the Tilt Train from Gympie North to Brisbane in preference to the slower Citytrain?  Is that the question?

1.  Convenience:  You have to book a seat on the Tilt Train, not just rock up at the station and board.  To get a discount price, booking 7 days in advance is better.

2.  Cost:  It costs twice as much to travel on the Tilt Train between Gympie North and Roma Street than using the Citytrain.  Go-card does not apply on the Tilt Train.

3.  Accessibility:  The Tilt Train stops at limited stops between Brisbane and Gympie North, which may not be convenient to the commuter.

4.  Premier Anna Bligh has promised fast tilt-trains, as Citytrains, for the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast lines.  See: http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2010/08/31/on-track-for-faster-train-trip-premier/
Expect that promise to be trotted out during the election campaign.

[#Metro]

1.  Convenience:  You have to book a seat on the Tilt Train, not just rock up at the station and board.  To get a discount price, booking 7 days in advance is better.

Yes, but maybe they could sell a pass? Problem is though is the time convenient for commuting?

2.  Cost:  It costs twice as much to travel on the Tilt Train between Gympie North and Roma Street than using the Citytrain.  Go-card does not apply on the Tilt Train.

If there are empty seats, it does not make sense that they carry air into Brisbane because that represents 100% loss. Even charging at a price below break-even, you can reduce the level of loss.

3.  Accessibility:  The Tilt Train stops at limited stops between Brisbane and Gympie North, which may not be convenient to the commuter.

Yes. Time might be another factor

4.  Premier Anna Bligh has promised fast tilt-trains, as Citytrains, for the Gold Coast and Sunshine Coast lines.  See: http://www.sunshinecoastdaily.com.au/story/2010/08/31/on-track-for-faster-train-trip-premier/
Expect that promise to be trotted out during the election campaign.

Bit of pipedream... but at least more realistic than intercapital HSR IMHO.

Problem is this--- a HSR on its OWN tracks would not have these constraints of either freight or regular pax services, though it would have fewer stations to reflect the longer distance it travels.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I meant use QR lines when they branch off their line to go into the city like the XPT.

And who ever said that HSR would be walk up and go card?

[Zoiks]

"Mobility is not a concern"

Gee whiz, if that's the case, ANY train will do; High OR low speed!

I also find it difficult to believe that "time savings" are a benefit when ALL trips shown are actually SLOWER by train than by air.

What is the point of this system if it doesn't increase mobility? If you want to improve land values, you may as well dig holes and bury cash in them to improve the land value, it would actually be cheaper.... and is HSR the best and only way of achieving these benefits? I would think not...

I still think the money is better spent on improving mobility on existing urban systems because it will return a much higher benefit.

You seem to corner mobility into mainly number of services per hour or day. I was simply stating that for long distance services, people tend to be ok adhering to timetabled services. Besides, if you want the ultimate in mobility we should move to cars. A service anytime you want, whereever you want. 

Sydney needs another airport. Would it not be better to funnel these funds into a HSR system that has some major direct and indirect benefits.

Dont get me wrong, I agree we need more frequent services, you just come across sometimes as against infrastructure building.

The previous study on HSR: http://www.infrastructure.org.au/Content/veryfasttrains.aspx


As can be seen by that and my previous post, even a 160km/h train captures significant market share sydney->canberra. It completely dominates the route at 350km/h
It captures half the trips between Sydney and Melbourne, and Brisbane to Sydney. It pretty much dominates all shorter routes ie Sunshine Coast to Brisbane at 350km/h.

It would be a sensible option to do the Sydney to Canberra leg instead of a new Airport. That would then be a staging platform for extensions to Melbourne + To newcastle and beyond.

[somebody]

I meant use QR lines when they branch off their line to go into the city like the XPT.

I think you meant TGV.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Same thing. TGV does it in Europe and the XPT/Southern Rail does it here.

[#Metro]

You seem to corner mobility into mainly number of services per hour or day. I was simply stating that for long distance services, people tend to be ok adhering to timetabled services. Besides, if you want the ultimate in mobility we should move to cars. A service anytime you want, whereever you want.  

Disagree. I have yet to see a car take off from Brisbane Airport, fly without a fixed guideway at 400 km or more per hour etc etc.
I am saying that it does not make sense to substitute a plane with a train if this does not result in a mobility benefit.
It also does not make sense if it is not economical.
If it does not increase mobility, why are we building it? Decoration?

What Mobility Means http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=5958.0

Sydney needs another airport. Would it not be better to funnel these funds into a HSR system that has some major direct and indirect benefits.

It depends, and I am open to HSR being looked at to Newcastle for example.

Dont get me wrong, I agree we need more frequent services, you just come across sometimes as against infrastructure building.

I am not against building infrastructure, but I am against building infrastructure for the sake of building infrastructure. Particularly when the social benefit
is likely to be far below that of spending the same money on urban transport services.

As can be seen by that and my previous post, even a 160km/h train captures significant market share sydney->canberra. It completely dominates the route at 350km/h
It captures half the trips between Sydney and Melbourne, and Brisbane to Sydney. It pretty much dominates all shorter routes ie Sunshine Coast to Brisbane at 350km/h.

Shorter routes I am more open to, however again for a train you need a fixed guideway, for a plane you don't. I'll wait and see the latest proper report.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Cars do have the ultimate mobility. While a train/plane/bus can get you from point A to point B whats available at point B to get you to point C. Trains, busses, planes, ferries, monorails can't get you or what your taking everywhere. Planes have weight limits, trains/busses have space and what you can carry limits. Would you get on a peak hour train with 2 giant bulky computer monitor boxes or get on the bus with the weekly family groceries with the leg of ham from the butcher? What would you say if a band coming from Ipswich had all their instruments and sound equipment on the peak hour train going through Roma Street-Brunswick Street? Cars can carry alot of things, can leave at any time they like, don't have to interchange between services.


Going back to a little earlier.
Since HSR would most likely be privatised the prices would be higher as the Government wouldn't be propping it as much. Now if CityTrain has the same route, higher frequency, with bus interchanges, car parking for half the price what would attract more customers? Would these faster trains be able to get slotted into the QR timetable during peak? What about problems now crossing from the south to the north?

If Gympie North passengers aren't willing to spend double the price on a Tilt that's 40 minutes faster what incentive would HSR have if its double the normal translink rate and has to fit into QRs schedule.

[O_128]

For the last time I will explain what HSR is.

1. HSR does not share tracks with city services except near the central stations. (eg, tracks would join from the south at roma street west)

2. HSR is not for Short trips, We have to remember that when HSR the SC track will have been duplicated and the coast connect service will most likely be running which is why I am against HSR going any further north than Brisbane. The only example I have seen of a short trip is the train from Florence to Venice where the HSR train stops at the last mainland station before crossing the bridge and terminating at Venice which is about a 10min segment

3. The difference with if the track is privatized is that there would be a few operators competing for the lowest price like the airlines.

4. Costwise just because there is a HSR doesn't mean people will take it. People value there time. In Italy to travel from Rome to Florence you have the choice of HSR or the normal train. HSR is non stop and is on its own dedicated route and takes about 90min while the other train has multiple stops and takes 4 hours. HSR is about $50 while normal train is $25 ( these were prices from the ticket machine and much cheaper fares are available if you book in advance)

6. The most likely route that will be chosen would be a second bridge next to the captain cook bridge before following the highway. Stop at Gold coast ( Buses and possible northern NSW train connections), Ballina or lismore, Coffs Harbour, Port Macquaire, New castle and finally Sydney.




Remember HSR is 25 to 30 years away, Most of SEQs network will be upgraded, Coast connect with 160kph trains will run.

[somebody]

For the last time I will explain what HSR is.

1. HSR does not share tracks with city services except near the central stations. (eg, tracks would join from the south at roma street west)

TGV violates this part of your definition of HSR AIUI.

[O_128]

For the last time I will explain what HSR is.

1. HSR does not share tracks with city services except near the central stations. (eg, tracks would join from the south at roma street west)

TGV violates this part of your definition of HSR AIUI.

Yes but ideally as you have as much dedicated HSR track as possible, then if someone wants a service to somewhere off the main track to service a town it can be setup, though one of the benefits of the eastern seaboard is that it is a linear setup of towns.

[HappyTrainGuy]

So how would HSR get to Roma Street West? Would it have its own bridge/tunnel across the river, head out over and above west end or would it share the same tracks with CityTrain and then branch off at Acica Ridge/whereever their rail network starts and pick up speed on its own dedicated track? If it goes to the north how many thousands apon thousands of properties would have to be redeveloped rather than cruising at 100kph on already available track then branch off somewhere after Petrie to join their own dedicated track.

[SurfRail]

Any development of the Trouts Road corridor for transit purposes should be done with a view to the inclusion of HSR tracks in my view (in the corridor, not sharing tracks and paths).  It is the only way you'll get a decent run out of the city to the north largely at grade.

[O_128]

The last thing you want are tracks shared all the way out to accia ridge, Following the south east and pacific highways are the best solution.

[Golliwog]

Any development of the Trouts Road corridor for transit purposes should be done with a view to the inclusion of HSR tracks in my view (in the corridor, not sharing tracks and paths).  It is the only way you'll get a decent run out of the city to the north largely at grade.

To my knowledge, Trouts Rd is currently being investigated as a road and rail corridor. If that goes ahead (its an investigation to see if its feasible, NOT a "this is want we want give us the figures to show its the best option") then I doubt there would be enough room for 4 tracks plus a road. Also, if Trouts Rd does go ahead wouldn't you need to quad the FG line between Bowen Hills and Alderley? So add in HSR and you'd have 6 which I doubt would fit without resumptions along the corridor.

[#Metro]

To my knowledge, Trouts Rd is currently being investigated as a road and rail corridor. If that goes ahead (its an investigation to see if its feasible, NOT a "this is want we want give us the figures to show its the best option") then I doubt there would be enough room for 4 tracks plus a road. Also, if Trouts Rd does go ahead wouldn't you need to quad the FG line between Bowen Hills and Alderley? So add in HSR and you'd have 6 which I doubt would fit without resumptions along the corridor.
   

I think a lot of people are going to scream when HSR track lands in their backyards, though that's not a reason not to consider it.

[O_128]

To my knowledge, Trouts Rd is currently being investigated as a road and rail corridor. If that goes ahead (its an investigation to see if its feasible, NOT a "this is want we want give us the figures to show its the best option") then I doubt there would be enough room for 4 tracks plus a road. Also, if Trouts Rd does go ahead wouldn't you need to quad the FG line between Bowen Hills and Alderley? So add in HSR and you'd have 6 which I doubt would fit without resumptions along the corridor.
   

I think a lot of people are going to scream when HSR track lands in their backyards, though that's not a reason not to consider it.

Alot of people are going to scream when rail lands in there yards lol.

Though trouts road is the way to go for HSR

[SurfRail]

Also, if Trouts Rd does go ahead wouldn't you need to quad the FG line between Bowen Hills and Alderley? So add in HSR and you'd have 6 which I doubt would fit without resumptions along the corridor.

God no.  It would have to be tunnelled and hooked into Cross River Rail to make any sense.  If HSR was involved, it would need to hook into however that accesses the CBD from the south.  Either way – tunnels from Roma St to just beyond Alderley, with QR services hooking into Strathpine and HSR ducking up the Bruce.

[ozbob]

Courier Mail --> From Sydney to Melbourne in three hours on 400km/h Australian High Speed Vehicle

[ozbob]

The Interpreter --> High-speed rail: China's white elephant?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Courier Mail --> From Sydney to Melbourne in three hours on 400km/h Australian High Speed Vehicle

Yeah, everybody wants to be on a train with round seats going at 400kph. And so much for the centre of gravity. But the front does look bad ass!

[O_128]

The Interpreter --> High-speed rail: China's white elephant?

China is offering to provide technology, equipment and trains, and even construction costs for countries willing to supply natural resources.

interesting

[Stillwater]

HSR (as in very fast trains) is NOT going to share track with Citytrain.  It will be on its own track.  HSR will NOT sit over the backyard fence from someone.  HSR PROBABLY won't leave from Roma Street Station, but from some stand-alone station, where the comings and goings of suburban trains won't interfere with its operation.  It is NOT a commuter train.  Those who think it will run to Cairns are in fairyland.  Most likely it will radiate from Sydney and stop ONLY at major centres.  And it is decades away from those on this side of the border.

[SurfRail]

It is NOT a commuter train.

I don't know where to begin with just how wrong that statement is.  HSR easily has a commuter function on most overseas versions, and I can easily see passengers travelling from the northern Sunshine Coast or from Coolangatta to Brisbane.  If they are prepared to pay a premium (ie non-TransLink) fare, I can't see the issue. 

HSR PROBABLY won't leave from Roma Street Station, but from some stand-alone station, where the comings and goings of suburban trains won't interfere with its operation.

Roma Street is the only station that makes any sense whatsoever.  It would need to be underground, no matter where it is going to end up, if it is going to be within cooee of the City.  I certainly don't want a situation where our main HSR railhead is at Acacia Ridge.

Those who think it will run to Cairns are in fairyland.

Cairns, yes.  Rockhampton, yes.  Sunshine Coast - no.

[HappyTrainGuy]

HSR (as in very fast trains) is NOT going to share track with Citytrain.  It will be on its own track.  HSR will NOT sit over the backyard fence from someone.  HSR PROBABLY won't leave from Roma Street Station, but from some stand-alone station, where the comings and goings of suburban trains won't interfere with its operation.  It is NOT a commuter train.  Those who think it will run to Cairns are in fairyland.  Most likely it will radiate from Sydney and stop ONLY at major centres.  And it is decades away from those on this side of the border.

But it would eventually have to share some city related track may it be in Brisbane, Sydney or Melbourne if its to remain competitive with air travel at an affordable rate. Otherwise there would have to be massive land resumptions, another long and expensive tunnel near the multiple CBDs which would just blow the cost of the whole project right out of the water. If you have the terminus away from the CBD out at Acica Ridge or Ipswich away from readily available transport what incentive does that provide if there are limited services to get you to and from there. If the station was at Roma Street you have other services available. Trains to Ipswich, Nambour, Caboolture, Gold Coast, Beenleigh, Cleveland, Ferny Grove, Toowoomba, Springfield, Cairns, Longreach, Shorncliffe, Redcliffe. Busses going everywhere at your fingertips, Eastern Busway, Southern Busway, Northern Busway, BUZ routes (Aspley/Chermside etc). Pick up points, taxis and the big selling point your destination is right next to the CBD which makes it perfect for business trips.

A good way would be to have their own track, branch off at Acacia ridge and use QR tracks while they wait and get funds to build their own underground tunnel to the CBD under/beside Roma Street.

[#Metro]

HSR (as in very fast trains) is NOT going to share track with Citytrain.

Can you even begin to imagine how many train paths a 400 km/hour train would eat up if it shared QR tracks.

The more I think about it, the more I think another Sydney Airport would benefit the entire nation. Planes can fly to any city that has an airport. If you get another airport out at Sydney you would improve transport all across the nation an internationally.

[somebody]

Besides, 400km/h on NG is a ridiculous notion.  I think it was odd that Japan didn't go even wider than 4'8.5" for its Shinkansens, given that they couldn't share tracks with its NG network.

[ozbob]

From the Melbourne Age click here!

Minister talks up 'cheap' fast-train link

Minister talks up 'cheap' fast-train link
Deborah Gough
June 12, 2011

THE government's go-slow approach to rail upgrades may have inadvertently proved auspicious, with Infrastructure Minister Anthony Albanese announcing that a Melbourne-to-Sydney high-speed rail link would be significantly cheaper to build now than when it was last discussed a decade ago.

The Australasian Railways Association, which represents rail builders and operators, says the cost of building the link would be about a quarter of the price it was 11 years ago when the federal government pulled the plug on the project.

Buoyed by plummeting prices, and the push to cut carbon emissions and ease urban congestion, Mr Albanese said: ''There is no doubt in my mind this ... could be the century of rail.''

He said the federal government had committed $7.3 billion for urban rail projects, which he claimed was more than any other government allocation since federation.

The rail association's chief executive officer, Bryan Nye, said China was leading the surge in high-speed rail, rolling out 20,000 kilometres of tracks to all of its medium-sized towns. Only a handful of countries had high-speed rail a decade ago, he said, but 20 countries would have it by 2015.

He said demand for more high-speed rail had brought more companies onto the market, which had created competition, but an east coast rail link would still cost billions of dollars.

Mr Albanese has commissioned a study on the feasibility of a high-speed east coast rail link. The group, led by AECOM Australia, is due to report at the end of next month and the report will be made public in August.

Mr Nye said a Melbourne-Sydney rail journey would need to take less than three hours for it to be competitive with air travel. He said if the project proceeded soon the Newcastle-Sydney-Canberra rail link could be built by 2020 with a Sydney to Melbourne route by 2025.

Committee for Melbourne chief Andrew MacLeod said Geelong should be included in any study so that a link to Avalon Airport could be considered.

But Monash University professor of public transport Graham Currie dismissed the east coast rail link as a ''waste of time ... when we have gigantic public transport problems we are trying to cope with in our cities''.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/minister-talks-up-cheap-fasttrain-link-20110611-1fyl8.html#ixzz1Ozb1JN1T

[#Metro]

It says the price has gone down, but it doesn't say why.... that's interesting... why would the price go DOWN?