High Speed and Fast Rail

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/7NewsSydney/status/1068401775412043776

[Stillwater]

LOL,   

A federal government in trouble, facing electoral defeat in May 2019, yet again reaches for the high speed rail bauble from the Christmas Tree and rubs it between its fingers so that it shines and sparkles before the voters.  What an excellent opportunity for Scott Morrison and the local member to stand in every hamlet between Melbourne and Brisbane and say 'here's where a high speed rail train will run'.  The probability is that it won't stop.

I give applause for the political audacity, hope something will come of it, but remain sceptical.

[ozbob]

Certainly a strong case for regional rapid rail. As far as high speed rail say Melb to Sydney to Brisbane, never going to happen.

The window of opportunity was lost in the 1980s.

Utopia does high speed rail well! 

[Cazza]

HSR in Australia will never work. Cities are way too scattered with absolutely nothing in between them. Planes do the job just fine, for a fraction of the cost (no need for 1000s of kms of track with crazy amounts of property resumptions).

I thought teleportation was just around anyway...

[#Metro]

The way people are talking about HSR, it won't work.

Planes are already capable of traveling at 900 km/hr 3x faster than a train.

In Barcelona, they have security screening, just like an airport does.

Given the cost, you could just divert a portion to faster and better security screening at airports.

Where HSR does have a chance is against the car, where cars are legally limited to 100-110 km/hr and 2000 pax/lane/hr. And where you have high volume everyday commuting to and from work.

A train can be competitive if its speed is roughly double that of a car, so about 200-250 km/hr.

This means places like Toowoomba, Sunshine and Gold Coast, could be viable.

[techblitz]

top priorities:

sunshine coast - Brisbane - gold coast
Newcastle - Sydney - woolongong

Not sure about Melbourne......not quite the populations there in Bendigo/ballarat etc....perhaps focus on Melbourne to Canberra instead..

[verbatim9]

Certainly a strong case for regional rapid rail. As far as high speed rail say Melb to Sydney to Brisbane, never going to happen.

The window of opportunity was lost in the 1980s.

Utopia does high speed rail well! 

The way people are talking about HSR, it won't work.

Planes are already capable of traveling at 900 km/hr 3x faster than a train.

In Barcelona, they have security screening, just like an airport does.

Given the cost, you could just divert a portion to faster and better security screening at airports.

Where HSR does have a chance is against the car, where cars are legally limited to 100-110 km/hr and 2000 pax/lane/hr. And where you have high volume everyday commuting to and from work.

A train can be competitive if its speed is roughly double that of a car, so about 200-250 km/hr.

This means places like Toowoomba, Sunshine and Gold Coast, could be viable.

top priorities:

sunshine coast - Brisbane - gold coast
Newcastle - Sydney - woolongong

Not sure about Melbourne......not quite the populations there in Bendigo/ballarat etc....perhaps focus on Melbourne to Canberra instead..

Those Sydney connections sound reasonable Canberra or Newcastle would be my first vote. I would lean towards Canberra first, as this would provide more benefits to the population. (As in electrification and connecting Canberra Airport and Canberra to the region as well as the new Badgerys Creek Airport for Sydney residents. Newcastle already has electrification, so it would be my second vote for an upgrade.

Definitely! Bne - Toowoomba - Bne delivered with inland rail to save on costs,  Coolangatta Airport to Bne and Bne - Caloundra/Nambour (Bundaberg) - Bne

Trains would only need to travel at 160kph for passengers to reap significant time savings.

[achiruel]

top priorities:

sunshine coast - Brisbane - gold coast
Newcastle - Sydney - woolongong

Not sure about Melbourne......not quite the populations there in Bendigo/ballarat etc....perhaps focus on Melbourne to Canberra instead..

Why would you do Melbourne to Canberra rather than Sydney to Canberra? 

Melbourne-Canberra has even more nothingness than Brisbane to Sydney.

[techblitz]

If we are talking stages priority then yes...Sydney to Canberra would take precendence over Melbourne to Canberra due to the sheer growth happening west of Sydney...but don't underestimate albury/Wodonga....the region is scraping 100k as we speak.....they even stuffed up and under forecasted the projections with that region...predicting it wont hit 106k til 2036....looks like it will hit that easily by 2025

If they proceed with the national HSR then its almost guaranteed the Melbourne to Canberra stretch will be done via albury/Wodonga..
Melbourne will still need to be connected to Canberra eventually.....clogged airspace will ensure that..
And we cant continue relying on planes to move people between Sydney and melbourne....that stretch is now one place off busiest local stretch in the world...busier than LA - san francisco....busier than sao Paulo to rio...busier than Mumbai to delhi...some of you are acting like airspace is infinite...just keep building airports to fix the problem.....do you even realise the enviromental impacts of continuing this mundane strategy??   

[#Metro]

I keep hearing this meme repeated that "Sydney to Melbourne is the busiest corridor".

The key word here is "busy", which is such a vague term.

What does that actually mean? Does it mean high frequency, or approaching capacity?

If the planes are frequent, but small, then the corridor might be busy but nowhere near capacity.

If capacity is the issue - get a bigger plane!

[techblitz]

What does that actually mean? Does it mean high frequency, or approaching capacity?

well put it this way...it wont be long until its the worlds busiest.....lets call it a badge of honor shall we?
A badge of honor on stupidity for failing to properly decentralise.....and you know what the trophy is going to be? A combined 20+ billion dollar PER YEAR congestion bill by 2030....just for those 2 cities alone.....as we continue with this incessant love of cramming everyone in and rinse/repeating the infrastructure to keep up with it.
And there goes our money for developing the regional areas further...p%ssed  up against a brick wall...

[verbatim9]

Certainly a strong case for regional rapid rail. As far as high speed rail say Melb to Sydney to Brisbane, never going to happen.

The window of opportunity was lost in the 1980s.

Utopia does high speed rail well! 

The way people are talking about HSR, it won't work.

Planes are already capable of traveling at 900 km/hr 3x faster than a train.

In Barcelona, they have security screening, just like an airport does.

Given the cost, you could just divert a portion to faster and better security screening at airports.

Where HSR does have a chance is against the car, where cars are legally limited to 100-110 km/hr and 2000 pax/lane/hr. And where you have high volume everyday commuting to and from work.

A train can be competitive if its speed is roughly double that of a car, so about 200-250 km/hr.

This means places like Toowoomba, Sunshine and Gold Coast, could be viable.

top priorities:

sunshine coast - Brisbane - gold coast
Newcastle - Sydney - woolongong

Not sure about Melbourne......not quite the populations there in Bendigo/ballarat etc....perhaps focus on Melbourne to Canberra instead..

Those Sydney connections sound reasonable Canberra or Newcastle would be my first vote. I would lean towards Canberra first, as this would provide more benefits to the population. (As in electrification and connecting Canberra Airport and Canberra to the region as well as the new Badgerys Creek Airport for Sydney residents. Newcastle already has electrification, so it would be my second vote for an upgrade.

Definitely! Bne - Toowoomba - Bne delivered with inland rail to save on costs,  Coolangatta Airport to Bne and Bne - Caloundra/Nambour (Bundaberg) - Bne

Trains would only need to travel at 160kph for passengers to reap significant time savings.

top priorities:

sunshine coast - Brisbane - gold coast
Newcastle - Sydney - woolongong

Not sure about Melbourne......not quite the populations there in Bendigo/ballarat etc....perhaps focus on Melbourne to Canberra instead..

Why would you do Melbourne to Canberra rather than Sydney to Canberra? 

Melbourne-Canberra has even more nothingness than Brisbane to Sydney.

If we are talking stages priority then yes...Sydney to Canberra would take precendence over Melbourne to Canberra due to the sheer growth happening west of Sydney...but don't underestimate albury/Wodonga....the region is scraping 100k as we speak.....they even stuffed up and under forecasted the projections with that region...predicting it wont hit 106k til 2036....looks like it will hit that easily by 2025

If they proceed with the national HSR then its almost guaranteed the Melbourne to Canberra stretch will be done via albury/Wodonga..
Melbourne will still need to be connected to Canberra eventually.....clogged airspace will ensure that..
And we cant continue relying on planes to move people between Sydney and melbourne....that stretch is now one place off busiest local stretch in the world...busier than LA - san francisco....busier than sao Paulo to rio...busier than Mumbai to delhi...some of you are acting like airspace is infinite...just keep building airports to fix the problem.....do you even realise the enviromental impacts of continuing this mundane strategy??   

I keep hearing this meme repeated that "Sydney to Melbourne is the busiest corridor".

The key word here is "busy", which is such a vague term.

What does that actually mean? Does it mean high frequency, or approaching capacity?

If the planes are frequent, but small, then the corridor might be busy but nowhere near capacity.

If capacity is the issue - get a bigger plane!

What does that actually mean? Does it mean high frequency, or approaching capacity?

well put it this way...it wont be long until its the worlds busiest.....lets call it a badge of honor shall we?
A badge of honor on stupidity for failing to properly decentralise.....and you know what the trophy is going to be? A combined 20+ billion dollar PER YEAR congestion bill by 2030....just for those 2 cities alone.....as we continue with this incessant love of cramming everyone in and rinse/repeating the infrastructure to keep up with it.
And there goes our money for developing the regional areas further...p%ssed  up against a brick wall...

Even though there is a focus on a regional intercity train network, I think the line will be improved and electrified between Bne and Mel to cater for faster rolling stock. This is likely to occur after the regional network is operational in Se Qld, NSW and Vic by the mid to late 2020s.

[AnonymouslyBad]

The way people are talking about HSR, it won't work.

Planes are already capable of traveling at 900 km/hr 3x faster than a train.

In Barcelona, they have security screening, just like an airport does.

Given the cost, you could just divert a portion to faster and better security screening at airports.

Where HSR does have a chance is against the car, where cars are legally limited to 100-110 km/hr and 2000 pax/lane/hr. And where you have high volume everyday commuting to and from work.

A train can be competitive if its speed is roughly double that of a car, so about 200-250 km/hr.

This means places like Toowoomba, Sunshine and Gold Coast, could be viable.

It will definitely be a "build out over time" situation.

The stuff about having one big HSR project building from Melbourne to Sydney via Canberra, and maybe onwards to Brisbane ... that's pure political cynicism. It will never happen like that.

But it'd be more feasible to build out regional HSR from each city.
Sydney to Canberra is definitely feasible, for example.
And then, if it becomes justified in future, the different segments can always connect.

The issue with the "just fly" argument is that domestic flights are inherently unsustainable, at least at current prices.
Because of the power required, there's no clear path to a sustainable future for air travel.
Maybe it will happen. But if it doesn't, too bad for us, because an HSR build needs to get underway something like 50 years before it's actually required. Even if construction started today, many people reading this would never see its completion.

Some trips must be made by air. Hopping between Sydney and Melbourne isn't one of them, and including the local commute at each end it's not even fast.

It's true there's an awful lot of nothingness in between our major cities, but that's a chicken and egg argument.

[ozbob]

Couriermail --> Capital cities linked by a ultra high-speed Hyperloop under ambitious plan pitched to Federal Government

COMMUTERS would hurtle between Australia's eastern capital cities in just minutes in a futuristic proposal for a capsule-based transport system.

A journey from Brisbane to Sydney would take a little more than 35 minutes on the "ultra-high-speed, tube-based inter and intra-city" system called a Hyperloop, which has a claimed top speed of 1223km/h.

People would be able to get from Adelaide to Melbourne in just over 30 minutes by an ultra high-speed, tube-based inter- and intracity transportation system running from SA all the way to Brisbane, in a futuristic plan pitched to the Federal Government.

The land-based technology, called a Hyperloop and first proposed by Elon Musk in 2012, would also run routes from Melbourne to Canberra (an estimated 23 minutes travel), Canberra to Sydney (14 minutes) and Sydney to Brisbane (37 minutes) hurtling at a top speed of 1223km/h.

It involves capsules magnetically levitating within a tube, primarily built on pylons, but could involve ground-level and underground segments if required, in which air pressure has been drastically reduced to allow the capsules to move at high speed with nearly zero friction.

Solar panels are also deployed along the outside of the tube and at Hyperloop stations to help power the system.

The ambitious plan is detailed in a submission made by Los Angeles-based "innovative transportation and technology company" Hyperloop Transportation Technologies to a Federal Government inquiry looking at the current and future developments in the use of automation and land-based mass transit.

HyperloopTT is asking the Federal Government to not only assist in conducting a feasibility study into the proposal but also directly invest in a 'Innovation Hub' in partnership with an Australian state "to adapt Hyperloop technology for an Australian application".

In its submission HyperloopTT says it could connect the capital cities of Australia and transport freight.

"A Hyperloop serving Australia's eastern seaboard and connecting Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane addresses a population of over 10 million people," the submission says.

"Adding Adelaide, Canberra, the Southern Highlands and extending the route to the Gold Coast increases the number to well over half of the Australian population, in a 2000km stretch of relatively flat, seismically stable terrain and creating new business, passenger and freight transport opportunities to millions of Australians each year."

Hyperloop TT has said it will have a full-scale prototype of the technology that brings aeroplane speeds to ground-level operational from next year at a site in France.

It says on its website it has 11 global government agreements.

Rival company Virgin Hyperloop One last year touted a route from Sydney via Tamworth and Toowoomba to Brisbane, and a spur to the Gold Coast, but the Queensland Government said it had no business case.

Mr Musk has no connection with either company.

The HyperloopTT submission does not indicate how much a Hyperloop link in Australia would cost, or when it could be built.

A previous proposal by HyperloopTT connecting to Bratislava and Bratislava to Budapest was estimated to be US$200 to US$300 million.

The Advertiser contacted HyperloopTT for comment.

Earlier this month the current link between Adelaide and Melbourne, the Overland rail service which takes 10.5 hours, was given a one-year reprieve after the Victorian Government gave it a $200,000 lifeline.

The South Australian Government has said there are no plans to reverse its decision to axe its funding of the 131-year-old link at the end of this year.

The Advertiser contacted the State Government for comment about the Hyperloop proposal.

What is a Hyperloop?

Touted as safely bringing aeroplane speeds to ground level a Hyperloop is high-speed tunnel or tube transportation that can carry people and goods in capsules travelling up to 1,223km/h.

The concept first entered the public arena in 2012 when Elon Musk raised it at a speech.

Who is HyperloopTT?

While Musk brought the concept to public attention, other companies have taken the lead on making it a reality.

In October last year, Richard Branson made a "significant investment" into Hyperloop One, rebranding it Virgin Hyperloop One.

It along with Hyperloop TT is one of the two major dedicated companies pursuing the technology.

Hyperloop Transport Technologies was founded in 2013 and says it has more than 800 "collaborators" from the world's leading companies and universities working on the technology.

It is conducting feasibility studies and has agreements with countries and institutions in North and South America, Europe and Asia and has unveiled a full-scale passenger capsule, saying a full-scape prototype in Toulouse is planned for next year.

What are they proposing?

For the Federal Government to fund a feasibility study into the technology with a potential study option connecting Adelaide, Melbourne, Canberra, Sydney and Brisbane with a travel time of potentially under 1hr 50 minutes.

They are also calling on the Federal Government to directly invest in a "Innovation Hub" in partnership with a state to adapt Hyperloop technology for an Australian rollout.

What now?

The proposal is contained in one of dozens of submissions to a Government inquiry looking into current and future developments in the use of automation and new energy sources in land-based mass transit.

More action regarding the inquiry will take place next year when Parliament returns.

[#Metro]

^ This is such garbage, it blows my mind that a newspaper can even think of publishing it.

1000+ km/hr? Really?!

Absolutely no public funding whatsoever should be tipped into this.

There are diminishing benefits as speed increases.

Station spacing limits the speed, it is not all about the vehicle.

[ozbob]

We all have a better chance of visiting Planet Claire then travelling to Sydney by hyperloop I am afraid ...

[verbatim9]

I would like to see regional rapid rail built and implemented prior to that technology being rolled out in Australia. Surely travelling at those speeds at ground level would have adverse affects on the body?

The beauty about traditional HSR is that you can look out the window and enjoy the scenery going by, That's what rail is all about at ground level, not looking outside to silver and black metal.

Regional Rapid Electrified rail priorities.
Go Bne - Toowoomba - Bne
Go Bne - Coolangatta - Bne
Go Bne - Caloundra - Bne

[ozbob]

Yes, need to sort our suburban and regional rail, and freight long before this sort of nonsense.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1078674240189095936

[timh]

Got tagged in this today:

https://janet-rice.greensmps.org.au/articles/it%E2%80%99s-time-build-publicly-owned-high-speed-rail-between-melbourne-and-brisbane-say-greens

As much as I love the idea, it seems a bit "pie in the sky", and afaik would require the Greens to have a majority government, which seems unlikely obviously... Cool plan though.

[verbatim9]

Got tagged in this today:

https://janet-rice.greensmps.org.au/articles/it%E2%80%99s-time-build-publicly-owned-high-speed-rail-between-melbourne-and-brisbane-say-greens

As much as I love the idea, it seems a bit "pie in the sky", and afaik would require the Greens to have a majority government, which seems unlikely obviously... Cool plan though.

I have seen that too. A government building HSR would be unlikely. It would go out for commercial tender. A successful tender would be building and running it for commercial purposes. Tickets no doubt will be subsidised as it is in China,  Japan and other countries.

That email from the Greens is just vote grabbing  I can't see it happening the way they intend it to happen!?

[ozbob]

Just blogged by The Urbanist - Why is east coast High Speed Rail still taken seriously? https://t.co/Rv2Br5whmn

— Alan Davies (@MelbUrbanist) March 17, 2019

https://twitter.com/MelbUrbanist/status/1107099709011718145

[ozbob]

High-speed trains to nowhere: Australia's long-running rail fail https://t.co/yiIaOHE2X8 #auspol #wapol #saparli #springst #nswpol #qldpol

— RAIL_BoT_Forum (@railbotforum) August 6, 2019

" ... The University of Wollongong academic Philip Laird calculates $125m in today's dollars has been spent on high speed rail investigations, but not one kilometre of corridor has been reserved. ... "

[Stillwater]

Always easy around election time to set up a new high speed rail taskforce and throw an extra couple of million at the problem .... lots of publicity, but little by way of outcome.  Maybe we could put the Utopia team to work planning it. 

[Gazza]

I think with HSR, you could definitley justify a Newcastle to Canberra line right now.

Down in Victoria you might do a line to Albury Wodonga via Shepparton, but it's a lot more marginal and would basically be a loss leader / gold plated V line.
The actual corridor is quite straight, and might only require some high speed deviations  around Wandong, Glenrowan, Wangaratta etc.

Once those two are in place, its only a 250km missing link between Albury Wodonga and Canberra.

I think that's the way to do it.

The Final stage, Newcastle to Brisbane would have to wait quite a while IMO.

[ozbob]

Gold Coast Bulletin --> Why time might finally be right for Australia to adopt high speed rail


The 2013 High Speed Rail Study plan. The National Faster Rail Agency's current plans.

Opinion: It's a popular and successful form of transport used in much of the developed world. With our growing congestion problems, it's time we saw it in Australia, writes Keith Woods.

A JOURNEY on the old Southport to Brisbane railway line was a slow affair.

The steam-powered locomotive that was its workhouse, the PB15, had a maximum speed of 65km/h.

The PB15 came into service on December 22, 1899. Fast forward 120 years, and although much has changed, in terms of our rail system, many things are remarkably similar.

A journey by train from Helensvale Station to Roma St Station, a distance of 68km, takes an hour and five minutes. The average speed of the journey is 63km/h.

In fairness, that's including the many stops along the way – the trusty old PB15 would never have made it in that time, even going at full clip. And the New Generation Rollingstock trains on the Gold Coast line offer far greater comfort.

But the reality is that they spend most of their time travelling at a relatively sedate pace which would not be all that alien to the Queenslander rail customers of 1899.

The infrastructure does not exist for Australian trains to go much faster. The average speed of the service between Brisbane and Sydney is 73 km/h – not much more than the PB15 was capable of.

It doesn't have to be this way.

This columnist's recent travels in Japan brought a welcome reminder of the wonders of the Shinkansen, the famous "bullet train" which zips from city to city at speeds of up to 320 km/h.

A fellow traveller remarked that it is remarkable such a system has never been built in Australia, given the vast distances between our cities.

It is a comment that has been made many time before – but it is hard to disagree.

Multiple proposals have been advanced in the last four decades, but while there has been some enthusiasm, our political system no longer seems able to deliver this kind of nation-building infrastructure.

There is much focus, including here on the Gold Coast, on what the State Government is doing in regards to transport. That is understandable, given that transport is, for the most part, a local issue.

But taking a wider view, there is a strong case that the Federal Government has been the more neglectful of its duties.

In the absence of strong federal initiatives, states have been attempting to fill the gap with their own rail projects. But the issue is something Canberra should be leading on – not leaving to state governments.

The most recent of many attempts to do so was the High Speed Rail Study commissioned by the Rudd Government. The plan allowed for trains travelling at up to 350km/h on a line stretching from Melbourne to Brisbane, with stops including the Gold Coast. It was very well advanced when it was killed off by the Abbott Government, which had a strong ideological aversion to all things on rails.

The time is right to dust off those plans. Being a safe pair of hands won Scott Morrison an election in the face of the swivel-eyed policies of Bill Shorten, but it will not be enough to win him a place in the history books as one of Australia's great nation-building Prime Ministers.

Finally constructing a rail network to rival those in Japan and Europe would be one way to do it.

It could provide jobs and stimulus in a slowing economy, and a neat answer to those who say Australia is doing nothing to combat climate change.

It would also be likely to win bipartisan support – Mr Shorten's successor, Anthony Albanese, has long been a passionate advocate of a high-speed rail network.

"A High Speed Rail Link from Brisbane to Melbourne via Sydney and Canberra would revolutionise interstate travel, allowing people to travel between capital cities in as little as three hours," Mr Albanese told this column.

"It would also open up huge development opportunities for the regional communities along its path – cities like the Gold Coast, Casino, Grafton, Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie, Taree, Newcastle, the Central Coast, the Southern Highlands, Canberra, Wagga Wagga, Albury-Wodonga and Shepparton.

"When Labor was last in Government we completed a study which not only found the project was feasible, but would generate $2.30 in public benefit for every dollar spent on construction.

"Despite this, the Coalition Government has run dead on this important nation building project."

It is true that the Morrison Government this year established a National Faster Rail agency. But its ambitions are piecemeal and limited, and look suspiciously like they've been crafted to meet electoral interests more than the national interest. It is focused on local links, with speeds well below that achieved by the Shinkansen, like a line between Melbourne and Geelong.

None of the routes it is looking at support cross-state boundaries. There is no national vision.

This is a shame. Since the first PB15 steamed into Southport almost 120 years ago, the Gold Coast and Australia has advanced beyond recognition.

The pioneers who built that line showed a vision that would ultimately lead to the creation of the city of the Gold Coast. It's time we showed a little bit more of that kind of nation-building vision again.

A trusty PB15 at the old Southport train station.

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/XHscitech/status/1189514479215751169

[timh]

https://twitter.com/XHscitech/status/1189514479215751169

I have travelled on China's HSR network a number of times. It's fantastic. Very well suited to the population densities they have. You can basically get around the entire country by rail. Much better than flying and I did even see commuters using the system to travel from Emeishan to Chengdu (2-3 hour trip by HSR). I suspect that would be similar elsewhere in the country

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Gazza]

Gold Coast Bulletin --> Why time might finally be right for Australia to adopt high speed rail


The 2013 High Speed Rail Study plan. The National Faster Rail Agency's current plans.

The map illustrates quite well that if Victoria builds a line to Wodonga and NSW build a line to Canberra, it will be a logical step to  connect the two systems and at least have the SYD-MEL segment done.

[ozbob]

IRJ -->  China opens world's first automated high-speed line


The Beijing – Zhangjiakou line is the world's first automated high-speed line.

CHINA National Railway (CR) opened the 174km Beijing North – Zhangjiakou line on December 30, the world's first automated high-speed railway, together with the 53km Chongli line serving venues for the 2022 Beijing Winter Olympics.

The Beijing – Zhangjiakou line has eight stations including Badaling Great Wall and Xiahuayuan North, where the 52.2km Chongli high-speed line branches off to serve the Olympic Village in Prince Edward City. Badaling Great Wall station is underground and has a maximum depth of 102m and occupies an area of 41,000m2.

The maximum speed on the Beijing – Zhangjiakou line is 350km/h and will cut the journey time between the two cities from 3h 7min to 47 minutes. The Chongli line has a top speed of 250km/h to achieve a Beijing – Prince Edward City journey time of 53 minutes. CR is operating 36 round trips per day on the two new lines plus six daily round trips in peak hours.

Two more new lines
The Beijing – Zhangjiakou line is one China's eight vertical and eight horizontal high-speed corridors and connects with two new 250km/h lines: the 287km line from Zhangjiakou to Hohhot (the western section of which opened in 2017) and the 141km Zhangjiakou – Datong line. As a result, the Beijing – Hohhot journey time has been cut from 9h 15min to 2h 9min, while the fastest time from Beijing to Datong is now 1h 42min compared with 6 hours before the new line opened.

[verbatim9]

^

[ozbob]

Daily Telegraph --> A look into the super speedy train debate promised between Sydney and Melbourne

This is the high speed rail debate that should be watched closely by those in Australia who have promised a super fast rail link between Sydney and Melbourne.

I caught an early morning train from London to Manchester this week and it's got me thinking a lot about transport in the UK and back in Australia.

At the risk of sounding like an uncle at Christmas you haven't seen for months, this postcard is dedicated to how I got there.

I won't go into every detail of which turns I made, or what tube lines I had to ride to get to Euston station like your uncle would when describing the route he took to your house for his roast lunch.

I do have a complaint to make about the train. It wasn't the $500 AUD cost of the peak time ticket, but the toilets.

I went into the bathroom to wash my hands and the soap was on the right hand side.

It was like I was reading an Arabic or Hebrew script.

England, with its stiff upper lip and monarchy, usually has the procession line of soap, then water then hand dryer, just like Australia.

I had no idea what to do.

The train was incredibly comfortable, with a table for my laptop and a power point, very handy for every device known to man that modern people need but has the battery life of a butterfly flapping its wings.

It was also incredibly empty – remember the ticket price.

I was heading to Manchester for a chat with Sonny Bill Williams, the rugby and boxing superstar who is now playing for the Toronto Wolfpack in the UK Super League.

I was never in the back of the school photograph but Williams has a way of making you feel like you should be sitting in the front row next to the class sign.

Work paid for my ticket up there, which was about six times more than the bus would have cost to get there.

And that's the problem, the trains are just too expensive here.

It comes as UK politicians debate whether to continue with a $190 billion AUD, yes, billion is not a typo, high speed rail line from London to Manchester and Leeds which would use a mix of existing and new track line routes.

British Prime Minister Boris Johnson wants to even up the country by spending to create more jobs in the north of England and Scotland after his thumping election win thanks to voters from those regions.

However, he's under pressure from his own party members to scrap the rail scheme, which has blown budget after budget.

The problem I see is that if they cannot fill a train from London to Manchester at 8am on a Tuesday morning because the tickets are too expensive, how are they going to make the high speed rail affordable enough for everyday people to use.

The high speed rail debate should be watched closely by those in Australia who have promised a super fast rail link between Sydney and Melbourne.

There's a risk that too could be a white elephant if it was ever built even though it would be great to see the clips of the ABC's Utopia played again if it did get the green light.

With the infrastructure deficits in Oz with water, and the enormous disaster recovery efforts needed I doubt that  high speed rail will ever happen in eastern Oz.  Regional fast rail yes, that's about the best that will happen.

[kram0]

I totally agree with you. The amount of time it takes to do the basics in this country is ridiculous, so how all levels of government would come together to construct a HST network I don't know. I doubt it will ever happen.

I can't even see the GC line turning to a faster rail corridor in the next 20 years. They haven't even given timeframes for extending the line to GC airport for f&@k sake.

They should not attempt any major infrastructure until we can get the basics right.

[Cazza]

Very interesting video on regional and long(er) distance rail. The thing that sticks out to me most is at around 4:15:
The 250 mile (400km) route will take around 3 hours, falling into an important passenger rail sweet spot. It's too short to fly but too long to drive.

This is the key! We shouldn't be aiming for City to City travel in Australia, it's just straight up worthless due to the sheer superiority of air travel. From here, air travel will only become cheaper, greener and more efficient, so there's no point trying to pose a solution that only creates more problems than it solves.

City to Town travel here is what we need to be aiming for. Brisbane-Coffs/Brisbane-Bundaberg or even Rocky, Sydney-Canberra/Sydney-Orange, Melbourne-Bendigo/Melbourne-Ballarat/Melbourne-Albury, Perth-Bunbury. These are the routes that need to be invested in, not some stupid National Fast Rail that is no more than an election pipe dream tool and that is only continually draining funds from our limited pool of money.

A more broad comment that also resinates with me is:
Countries that invest in infrastructure are the ones that do the best. Do the best economically, do the best for the people, they create the best quality of life.

[Gazza]

Both are equally pipe dreams if you phrase it like that.

The US has numerous city pairs of millions of people within 400km.... Tampa to Miami as per the video..Also ones like St Louis to Chicago, Charlotte to Altanta, LA to Vegas.

400km... City to City.

But you can't really portray something like Sydney to Orange or Sydney to Port Macquarie as being on the same level, because its not.
Orange has 40,000 ppl, not 1 million.


Im just struggling to understand the "formula"?

A 400km line to a city of 40,000 is Ok by you.

But an 800km line between cities of 5 million is not?

The 400km line will cost half as much as the 800km one, but will service 1% of the passenger volumes.

That all said, Canberra to Newcastle falls into the very viable category.

[JimmyP]

Both are equally pipe dreams if you phrase it like that.

The US has numerous city pairs of millions of people within 400km.... Tampa to Miami as per the video..Also ones like St Louis to Chicago, Charlotte to Altanta, LA to Vegas.

400km... City to City.

But you can't really portray something like Sydney to Orange or Sydney to Port Macquarie as being on the same level, because its not.
Orange has 40,000 ppl, not 1 million.


Im just struggling to understand the "formula"?

A 400km line to a city of 40,000 is Ok by you.

But an 800km line between cities of 5 million is not?

The 400km line will cost half as much as the 800km one, but will service 1% of the passenger volumes.

That all said, Canberra to Newcastle falls into the very viable category.

To add to this, an east coast HSR route wouldn't be puerly for the capitals, it would serve those smaller destinations also, just not with every train.

[Cazza]

I understand that we aren't likely to see any sort of high speed, bullet train like stuff in Australia within any of our lifetimes, if at all, obviously due to the sheer lack of population density anywhere outside our capitals. But the point I'm trying to make is that this is regional distance rail is the stuff we need to be focussing our funds to, not some crazy high speed rail system like the one that runs right throughout China for example.

The "it's too short to fly but too long to drive" is the target we should be aiming for, not some unrealistic, expensive 1000km route which can be done by a plane in a tad over an hour.

[#Metro]

Nothing is getting built with the massive debt we have

[Gazza]

I understand that we aren't likely to see any sort of high speed, bullet train like stuff in Australia within any of our lifetimes, if at all, obviously due to the sheer lack of population density anywhere outside our capitals. But the point I'm trying to make is that this is regional distance rail is the stuff we need to be focussing our funds to, not some crazy high speed rail system like the one that runs right throughout China for example.

The "it's too short to fly but too long to drive" is the target we should be aiming for, not some unrealistic, expensive 1000km route which can be done by a plane in a tad over an hour.

But a route between capitals is just two such trains joined together.

Syd to Canberra is a good start, it services Bowral and Goulburn too.

Ok now what if we built Melbourne to Albury...that services Seymour, Benalla, Wangaratta, and potentially Shepparton.

A couple of regional lines both terminating at cities over 100k.

Now, what if after building those two, we built a bit in the middle.

Bam, now its not a pipedream,  and patronage skyrockets because it now is open to travel between capital cities

[ozbob]

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