Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade

[Gazza]

I think Labor's 15 minute Ferny Grove plan is what sci-fi tv fans call a retcon.

Who cares though? If both parties are scurrying to copy each other, and it's something the public wants for a change, then that means democracy is working.

+1 Simons post. If QR/TL were doing this off their own back I wonder if they would possibly be more generous with span. LNPs interpeak plan seems a bit bare minimum.

[Golliwog]

The election material from the LNP in my letterbox this afternoon said 15 minutes off peak with no mention of interpeak...

[SteelPan]

They entire City to Ferny Grove line should, in stages over 20yrs, be sunk underground and higher density style housing built along it.  

Also, 2025+ extend the line backout to Samford.

Well, I said it, someone had to...  

[Golliwog]

They entire City to Ferny Grove line should, in stages over 20yrs, be sunk underground and higher density style housing built along it.  

Also, 2025+ extend the line backout to Samford.

Well, I said it, someone had to...  

I disagree with the need to sink it, or the sense in doing so. Whats wrong with just building over the top of it? I do however agree with the idea of extending it back out to Samford, and maybe even Dayboro (though I don't see it happening anytime soon).

[SteelPan]

I disagree with the need to sink it, or the sense in doing so. Whats wrong with just building over the top of it? I do however agree with the idea of extending it back out to Samford, and maybe even Dayboro (though I don't see it happening anytime soon).

Yes, sorry, "sink" just sounded like the right DRAMATIC word to use, I like the word "sink", it grabs the eye...anyway, I'll sink my idea of sinking the FG line and accept building over it, is likely just as good and the idea should sink into public thinking for some discussion - also and don't tell the govt, but the steady allowing of building appropriate structures over such a line could let some cold hard ca$h sink into state coffers...wait till that reality sinks in down in George St.....      you'll have never seen 'em move so fast...like they's sinking an oil well...then they'll tax it.....    

[Golliwog]

Though of course you'd want to sort out exactly how the Trouts Rd line would tie in at Alderley/Newmarket, as well as look at any potential future requirements for the line, eg: if freight is somehow returned to the line, will extra tracks be required, etc.

[O_128]

The election material from the LNP in my letterbox this afternoon said 15 minutes off peak with no mention of interpeak...

Rule one of flyer, Keep it simple, No need to say off peak and inter peak. Chances are they are referring to any time that isn't peak. 15 min to 9pm is fine by me.

Is anyone else excited that this is the first "no excuses" line on the network, no single track, no freight, virtually no excuses to expect anything other than a world class service.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Is anyone else excited that this is the first "no excuses" line on the network, no single track, no freight, virtually no excuses to expect anything other than a world class service.

Excuse #1. Translink 

[SteelPan]

The cost of going over the FG line tracks is pretty much all borne by the developer - it's almost 100% profit for the State.  Through legislation the State maintains the right to approve any and all structures built over lines and the ongoing structural integrity of developments, which, given Australian building codes, will be of high quality in any case.

No, the FG has no (serious) freight along it and never will.

[Golliwog]

Yeah, RTT I don't really expect freight to come back to the FG line at all, except maybe once the Trouts Rd line is in, and even then only as a possibility between Trouts Rd and Bowen Hills. The only other way it could happen is if there was a big policy, modal shift for distribution for supermarkets/departments stores etc to reduce or remove semi trailers from the roads through Brisbane where possible. But I highly doubt that will happen or even be feasible.

[Jonno]

Yeah, RTT I don't really expect freight to come back to the FG line at all, except maybe once the Trouts Rd line is in, and even then only as a possibility between Trouts Rd and Bowen Hills. The only other way it could happen is if there was a big policy, modal shift for distribution for supermarkets/departments stores etc to reduce or remove semi trailers from the roads through Brisbane where possible. But I highly doubt that will happen or even be feasible.

It is more than feasible as other cities are clearly showing but doubt we have any poitical champions who could get even closely to implementing it.

[SurfRail]

Freight belongs on other lines really.  Adelaide, Perth and Melbourne have almost complete separation between passenger and freight.  There are minor exceptions in all cases, but none of these cities have track-sharing to the extent that Brisbane and Sydney have in the metropolitan area.

[Jonno]

The main lines betweens ports, intermodal and other yards MUST be separated.  There must however be ways of using the remaining network out of peak times and overnight for local freight distribution both dedicated (drop off rail carriage) and smaller parcels (dropped at station).  Cities with trams now have freight trams as well! It can be done if we want it to be done!! But not going to!

[SurfRail]

The main lines betweens ports, intermodal and other yards MUST be separated.  There must however be ways of using the remaining network out of peak times and overnight for local freight distribution both dedicated (drop off rail carriage) and smaller parcels (dropped at station).  Cities with trams now have freight trams as well! It can be done if we want it to be done!! But not going to!

Well, that's what trucks are for.

Freight rail can have a local distributive function as well (eg the services between Port Botany and the western sydney freight yards), but there is no economy of scale in going to lower concentrations than that.

The big problem with Australian freight is long-distance trucking.  Shorter hops are where they should be.

[#Metro]

The main lines betweens ports, intermodal and other yards MUST be separated.  There must however be ways of using the remaining network out of peak times and overnight for local freight distribution both dedicated (drop off rail carriage) and smaller parcels (dropped at station).  Cities with trams now have freight trams as well! It can be done if we want it to be done!! But not going to!

I agree and there is a decent economic reason to do so!

Freight should be used for CORE purposes - line haul function. Main impetus to upgrade the Sunshine Coast Line and ultimately get freight-passenger rail separation (holy grail).

Imagine if Paris Subway or Toronto's subways had coal and freight trains on it. They would laugh!

[BrizCommuter]

The main lines betweens ports, intermodal and other yards MUST be separated.  There must however be ways of using the remaining network out of peak times and overnight for local freight distribution both dedicated (drop off rail carriage) and smaller parcels (dropped at station).  Cities with trams now have freight trams as well! It can be done if we want it to be done!! But not going to!

I agree and there is a decent economic reason to do so!

Freight should be used for CORE purposes - line haul function. Main impetus to upgrade the Sunshine Coast Line and ultimately get freight-passenger rail separation (holy grail).

Imagine if Paris Subway or Toronto's subways had coal and freight trains on it. They would laugh!

Freight services operated on London Underground into the 1960s.

[#Metro]

Freight services operated on London Underground into the 1960s.

Yes, exactly where we are stuck now....1960s

[colinw]

Freight services operating through Metros after hours has come up in the requirements for some of the Chinese projects I work on as well. Means the signalling has to be designed around the train lengths & stopping distances for a freight, not just a short metro train.

Regarding Ferny Grove, there used to be quite a bit of industry along the line including a ballast spur around Keperra, but the last siding went some 20 years ago.  I doubt we'll see freight out that way again, except as a diversionary route via Trouts Road if the main line via Northgate happens to be closed for any reason.

[Golliwog]

I would have thought they would prefer to run freight via Trouts Rd (assuming there is a connection to the Exhibition loop rather than just onto the subs at Mayne, or into CRR) as it will have a much straighter and faster alignment?

RE: freight distribution, I think Brisbane is getting a bit big to just have the one main distribution point for freight around the whole city. Would there be anything wrong with having a small freight area at say Mitchelton and using that as the distribution point for freight to the Northwestern suburbs? You could get some of those big semi trailers off the roads and just use smaller delivery trucks instead. But running big Woolies trucks all the way from the Rocklea markets (or similar) all over Brisbane, while easier to organise, is IMO a bit wasteful. Particularly when you take into account the congestion and road toll impacts.

[somebody]

I would have thought they would prefer to run freight via Trouts Rd (assuming there is a connection to the Exhibition loop rather than just onto the subs at Mayne, or into CRR) as it will have a much straighter and faster alignment?

That's a pretty big assumption.  It's only slightly straighter and faster, I doubt it will be enough to pay for such a connection.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I would have thought they would prefer to run freight via Trouts Rd (assuming there is a connection to the Exhibition loop rather than just onto the subs at Mayne, or into CRR) as it will have a much straighter and faster alignment?

That's a pretty big assumption.  It's only slightly straighter and faster, I doubt it will be enough to pay for such a connection.

Especially considering that the freighters at night with good signals are about 3-5 minutes slower than the Gympie express services between Northgate-Caboolture (Carseldine-Geebung and Lawnton-Dakabin are the main areas that slow them down).

[Golliwog]

What speed are the curves between Strathpine-BH like? I thought there were a few slow-ish ones? Trouts Rd should be all >80km/hr, with really only being below 100km/hr where it comes onto the FG line.

[O_128]

Some of you seem to complicate things way to much, Freight can run via northgate thats enough, leave trouts road for passenger trains. FG in fantasy land should really be brisbanes first metro line but it won't be, sigh

[#Metro]

It is worth considering. Perhaps we could get quadruple track straight off the bat on Trouts Road - two lines for freight, two lines for passenger services.
Would free up the entire northside. Freight could use a slip track to get past mayne and into the back end.

Trouts Road is one way we can move towards 100% total separation of long distance and passenger networks.

[Golliwog]

Some of you seem to complicate things way to much, Freight can run via northgate thats enough, leave trouts road for passenger trains. FG in fantasy land should really be brisbanes first metro line but it won't be, sigh

Why leave Trouts Rd for passenger trains? If it has a faster alignment, which is more important for freight trains as they're typically long (well, if they ever get around to fixing the NCL...) so have to go slower for much longer than a pax train would on a poor alignment. Plus, even with Trouts Rd, I think you would have more pax services to potentially get in the way going via Northgate (even with Sunshine Coast trains, etc using Trouts Rd, you still need other trains to continue serving the inbetween stations). If we're building Trouts Rd from scratch, why not build it so it can be as useful as you can make it? Freight should go by which ever route is faster. It doesn't need to stop at any stations so the choice of which alignment to use should come down to speed and cost to make it work. Provided the cost of the connection isn't too great, I don't see why you wouldn't run freight on Trouts Rd.

[#Metro]

Trouts road is an opportunity to FINALLY separate freight from passenger services.


And with Cross River Rail, more tracks freed up on the surface *rubs hands with glee*

[petey3801]

What speed are the curves between Strathpine-BH like? I thought there were a few slow-ish ones? Trouts Rd should be all >80km/hr, with really only being below 100km/hr where it comes onto the FG line.

Freighters wouldn't really get any faster than 50-60km/h between Bowen Hills and Northgate, from there to Strathpine (Lawnton, really) it's fairly high speed, with Zillmere-Carseldine being the slow point (down to 60km/h). Middle road is slow Bald Hills - Strathpine (freighter wouldn't achieve any more than 60km/h from just before Bald Hills until train is clear of Strathpine), but the Down Main is pretty good along that section (still only 60km/h at Bald Hills though).

This is all assuming green signals the entire way, of course...

[SurfRail]

With Trouts Road, there will be more than enough room for freight to run via the main lines, and the difference in time will not be that tangible enough to justify the investment in trying to retrofit the Ferny Grove line for it.

I expect that Trouts Rd would see Caboolture, Kippa-Ring and Sunshine Coast services routed down it, with an all stations Petrie to the city via Northgate and Ekka service to carry the existing corridor. (I also expect it will be easier to run this as an all stations to allow interchange between Albion and Ekka, otherwise people have to back-track, walk or transfer, and you are only missing 4 stations anyway). 

That pattern is probably going to be something like 15 minutes at absolute best in the off-peak or at night, and would be the only service using the mains between Northgate and the City. Shorncliffe, Airport and Doomben would be using the suburban tracks and be routed through the mains at Bowen Hills in the direction of Milton, with services from Windsor taking up the suburbans and heading for the Merivale Bridge.  Both the Petrie pattern and freight services would go via the loop and there would be dedicated tracks for each between Mayne and the CRR portal (the extra passener track is a semi-stranded investment from CRR once Trouts Road is open).

Plenty of room for freight this way, and you could refuge it all the way from Strathpine inwards where necessary with the third track in the middle.

[Golliwog]

Would freight trains/long distance pax be able to use the Trouts Rd-Exhibition tunnel? Assuming they put in an exit from the tunnel to the surface tracks.

[HappyTrainGuy]

What speed are the curves between Strathpine-BH like? I thought there were a few slow-ish ones? Trouts Rd should be all >80km/hr, with really only being below 100km/hr where it comes onto the FG line.

Freighters wouldn't really get any faster than 50-60km/h between Bowen Hills and Northgate, from there to Strathpine (Lawnton, really) it's fairly high speed, with Zillmere-Carseldine being the slow point (down to 60km/h). Middle road is slow Bald Hills - Strathpine (freighter wouldn't achieve any more than 60km/h from just before Bald Hills until train is clear of Strathpine), but the Down Main is pretty good along that section (still only 60km/h at Bald Hills though).

This is all assuming green signals the entire way, of course...

It would have been good if they resumed the property north of Zillmere and realigned the track between Zillmere-Carseldine during the triple phase to remove the curves into Zillmere station. 100 after the Sunshine-Virginia curve then back to 80 after Geebung down to 60kph through Zillmere then back up to 90 after the Zillmere curve through Carseldine then 100kph to just after Telegraph Road level crossing before the 60kph through Bald Hills then back up to 100kph then down to 80 through Strathpine then back up to 100kph to the Pine River bridge before back to 80 then 60 then 50 through Petrie before pushing it to 100kph once again. Its pretty much the same in the opposite direction but a few areas have different speeds depending on the road its on ie the Bald Hills speeds Petey was referring to and the 70-100kph boards around Zillmere-Geebung.

[colinw]

Trouts road is an opportunity to FINALLY separate freight from passenger services.


And with Cross River Rail, more tracks freed up on the surface *rubs hands with glee*

Ah, but think how many thousand kilometres of BUZ routes you could get for that money. 

[#Metro]

Ah, but think how many thousand kilometres of BUZ routes you could get for that money.

Only if you want to load coal into the buses Colin  <--- Coal BUZ

[petey3801]

What speed are the curves between Strathpine-BH like? I thought there were a few slow-ish ones? Trouts Rd should be all >80km/hr, with really only being below 100km/hr where it comes onto the FG line.

Freighters wouldn't really get any faster than 50-60km/h between Bowen Hills and Northgate, from there to Strathpine (Lawnton, really) it's fairly high speed, with Zillmere-Carseldine being the slow point (down to 60km/h). Middle road is slow Bald Hills - Strathpine (freighter wouldn't achieve any more than 60km/h from just before Bald Hills until train is clear of Strathpine), but the Down Main is pretty good along that section (still only 60km/h at Bald Hills though).

This is all assuming green signals the entire way, of course...

It would have been good if they resumed the property north of Zillmere and realigned the track between Zillmere-Carseldine during the triple phase to remove the curves into Zillmere station. 100 after the Sunshine-Virginia curve then back to 80 after Geebung down to 60kph through Zillmere then back up to 90 after the Zillmere curve through Carseldine then 100kph to just after Telegraph Road level crossing before the 60kph through Bald Hills then back up to 100kph then down to 80 through Strathpine then back up to 100kph to the Pine River bridge before back to 80 then 60 then 50 through Petrie before pushing it to 100kph once again. Its pretty much the same in the opposite direction but a few areas have different speeds depending on the road its on ie the Bald Hills speeds Petey was referring to and the 70-100kph boards around Zillmere-Geebung.

Yeah, it is a great pity they didn't try to realign some of the bad sections while putting the triple through!! Same with a number of dup/trip/quad projects that have been done. Even north of Petrie could do with a bit of work, get rid of those damn 80/90km/h curves and get the entire section up to 100km/h, wouldn't be difficult at all, for the most part!!

Same with the Kep - FYG dup (look at that, this is actually on topic for this thread!   ), surely, for not much extra money, they could have eased the curves a bit in order to increase the speed from 50km/h to 70+ without a lot of difficulty! Doing the original track would be easy, just open the new track and have all traffic on that while the old track is realigned. Yes, it would mean a bit longer time with single track restrictions, however it would result in a much better job when finished!

[colinw]

Ah, but think how many thousand kilometres of BUZ routes you could get for that money.

Only if you want to load coal into the buses Colin  <--- Coal BUZ

Since when did coalies run to Brisbane from the north anyway?  If we need a Freight Upgrade Zone (FUZ) for coalies, it is to the west.

IMHO the problem with putting freight via Trouts Road is what to do when it reaches the FG line. A new connection to the Ekka loop would be needed as the FG flyover commits you to going via Central.

Far better in my opinion to use Trout's Rd as primarily a pax route and free up capacity via Northgate. Ideally triple through to Caboolture so we can have a dedicated freight road + loops all the way from Caboolture to Northgate.

I sure hope the junction layout at Petrie is sensible!

[#Metro]

I think it is a good opportunity to free up DEDICATED freight lines. How did perth manage to separate the two?

[BrizCommuter]

Yeah, it is a great pity they didn't try to realign some of the bad sections while putting the triple through!! Same with a number of dup/trip/quad projects that have been done. Even north of Petrie could do with a bit of work, get rid of those damn 80/90km/h curves and get the entire section up to 100km/h, wouldn't be difficult at all, for the most part!!

Same with the Kep - FYG dup (look at that, this is actually on topic for this thread!   ), surely, for not much extra money, they could have eased the curves a bit in order to increase the speed from 50km/h to 70+ without a lot of difficulty! Doing the original track would be easy, just open the new track and have all traffic on that while the old track is realigned. Yes, it would mean a bit longer time with single track restrictions, however it would result in a much better job when finished!

Straight track = property resumptions = more $$$$ from the non-existent pot of money.

With talk of freight on Ferny Grove Line, undergrounding the Ferny Grove Line, straightening the Ferny Grove Line, and quadrupling Trouts Road Line, this thread is rapidly heading towards fantasy foaming file territory.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Who even said Trouts road is actually final?  

That being said having 2 tracks along Trouts road, 3 tracks Bald Hills to Northgate and 4 tracks Strathpine to Petrie would be more realistic posability.

[#Metro]

You're not worried it might be your house being resumed eh?    

this thread is rapidly heading towards fantasy foaming file territory.

I do believe on the Spectrum of Authorities this is called 'Vision', and is at the top. Everyone on this forum falls along that scale, some of us are visionaries and can imagine things independently of what is current, others are rationalist. You need a bit of both.

[colinw]

Quite simply, I do not believe ANY of the froth in this thread has a snowball's chance in hell of happening. Campbell will probably plop a freeway down on top of the Trout's Rd corridor and that will be the end of that, and there are most assuredly NOT going to be new freight corridors carved out of the Brisbane suburbs. Perth was able to do it because it had a relatively tiny suburban system starting only 20km out of town at Midland, vast undeveloped areas south of Canning Vale that could be built through with minimal resumption costs, and existing bypass links like Mundijong to Fremantle line. Perth also was the recipient of a massive Federal investment in bypass capacity when the standard gauge reached east from Kalgoorlie in the 1960s. Brisbane missed out, because we already had our 3rd rate branch line grade standard gauge from Sydney.

If we want dedicated freight links, we need to start at the extremities of the system and build additional tracks in the corridors we already have (e.g. Caboolture to Northgate or Ipswich to Darra), otherwise we're up for $billions to bypass Ipswich to the South or to carve out a new corridor from the north.

I actually believe it is worth working up some longer term aspirational stuff in the area of dedicated freight trackage.  At a minimum that would include at least a freight track + loops from Caboolture to Northgate, and some means of getting Coalies from the west around Ipswich. Either a 3rd line from Ipswich to Darra, or the Southern Freight Rail Corridor that the Bligh/Beattie Government resumed.

CRR should help as well, by finally chucking citytrain off the dual gauge from Salisbury to Dutton Park.

Have to do something about that darn XPT too, its counter peak departure from Roma St is just too disruptive.

The lack of a northside freight yard is also a major problem. If one goes in, it should be well north, perhaps even north of Caboolture.

[Golliwog]

I don't know if you would have extended the construction phase by much at all if you eased some of the curves. You'd take more time at the start doing resumptions, but in terms of the actual easing itself, surely it could be done similar to how some of the curves/tracks Corinda-Darra were changed during a shut down? So same as how they did it now, but during one of the previous shut down (or in additional ones) they shift the track.

Remaining on topic: The station is really coming together now. Most of the lighting has been installed on the platforms, just the station name boxes, and the PIDs that are noticably missing, plus some lights on the posts at the city end of the platform. The station building is being assembled pretty well as well. No sign of the go gates yet, but I don't expect those until it's mostly watertight