Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade

[Golliwog]

FYI, those are my comments on the pictures, not Ozbobs. And I was also mostly just guessing.

[railguy83]

FYI, those are my comments on the pictures, not Ozbobs. And I was also mostly just guessing.
[/quote
My mistake, have altered my post 

[Golliwog]

Ok, true. I do see this weekend being unlikely. They have had new signals in for a while now though (covered up so as not to confuse drivers of course), and the overhead above platform 1 has already been switched to the new masts, but yeah I can see setting up the rest of it would take more than this week.

I don't know if they're going to set up a station office on the temporary platform though, it doesn't really look big enough. They might put something in down around the ex-tavern end though, seeing as everyone will soon have to go via that end of the station to access the platforms, which if that were the case would possibly just be a demountable building. What the little newsagent on the platform will be doing, I don't know.

[railguy83]

Probably will be similar to when they did Darra, a ticket office in the carpark...??  All will be revealed soon as the station area is changing constantly at the moment, the old station will soon be a memory!

[p858snake]

It would be nice if they marked out the set down area properly, Just adjusting it a tiny bit with how the bollards/crash barriers are sitting would allow about ~2 more cars to use it... Worse part about it would still be how the same number of people park in it (espically the evenings whilst waiting) when its half the size basically not allowing anyone in there (also the lack of singage pointing out where it is).

[BrizCommuter]

Arbor Street will be closed this weekend.

Why do FG Line closures always coincide with BrizCommuter's weekend shifts?

[somebody]

Arbor Street will be closed this weekend.

Why do FG Line closures always coincide with BrizCommuter's weekend shifts?

Sorry?  Isn't it closed to car traffic, with the trains still running?

[petey3801]

Arbor Street will be closed this weekend.

Why do FG Line closures always coincide with BrizCommuter's weekend shifts?

Sorry?  Isn't it closed to car traffic, with the trains still running?

The entire Ferny Grove line is closed this weekend...

[somebody]

The entire Ferny Grove line is closed this weekend...

So it is.

I think it is to be applauded that they are doing all the work which requires a close down in one go.  So long as that is achieved as it appears to be.

[Golliwog]

You missed the close down on Wednesday night then.

I think it is to be applauded that they are doing all the work which requires a close down in one go.  So long as that is achieved as it appears to be.

That was for "Urgent" work. Not sure what exactly it was though.

[railguy83]

There was probably some work that had to be completed between Keperra and Ferny Grove before the closure this weekend that needed the overhead power turned off...  im thinking it was not at the temporary platform because they seem to get closures of the adjacent track during the off peak without disrupting operations too much...

[Jonno]

Here is a great list of good example of transit oriented plaza/development in respone to a request from Jarret Walker.  We are letting ourselves and our city down with park n' rides.

http://www.humantransit.org/2011/03/information-request-suburban-transit-plazas.html

Tung Chung station in Hong Kong (and probably more suburban places in Hong Kong where the metro meets trams & busses)

Parla, stop on the Cercanias in Madrid, where you can change to the tram on a plaza:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=nl&geocode=&q=madrid&aq=&sll=22.289186,113.940582&sspn=0.003544,0.004823&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Madrid,+Spanje&ll=40.240448,-3.76926&spn=0.000731,0.001206&t=h&z=20&layer=c&cbll=40.240645,-3.76923&panoid=ofLr-nck_FnjdGPFI6xt_g&cbp=12,264.63,,0,5.5

Posted by: Jan D | 03/19/2011 at 01:15

I would seek to enter the competition using the plaza outside the Gerland Metro Station in Lyon, France.
I have not been back in the area since this project was completed (worked at a friend's microbrewery, Ninkasi, that is opposite the new metro station during the 98 World Cup) - so not certain how well this would meet the criteria.

This Google Map link gives an overview:
<http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=45.727107,4.831082&spn=0.001603,0.004117&t=h&z=19>

Posted by: Tim | 03/19/2011 at 01:29

The Alexanderplatz in Berlin meets most of your requirements, but it is a perhaps bit more complicated than you describe and in any event is certainly not "suburban."

Posted by: mike | 03/19/2011 at 01:40

Alexanderplatz in Berlin. There are connections to bus, tram, U-Bahn, S-Bahn, and some long-distance regional trains. The tram stop is directly on the platz, and the U-Bahn station exits directly onto the platz in several locations. The S-Bahn station, which is on the main Berlin transit axis, is separated from the platz by a building, but it still engages with it and with the park on the other side. It's helped by the fact that most of the area around it is a pedestrian zone. In the spring/summer it's pretty lively.

Google maps: http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=alexanderplatz+berlin&fb=1&gl=us&hq=alexanderplatz&hnear=Berlin,+Germany&cid=0,0,4498891286335488454&ei=qmyDTcPtCZK6tges45C7BA&sa=X&oi=local_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CCEQnwIwAA

Some images here:http://www.iftp-berlin.de/english/en_photo_galery_Alexanderplatz.htm

Posted by: hkp | 03/19/2011 at 01:48

Although not suburban, as mentioned above.

Station diagram: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Berlin_Alexanderplatz_U-S-Bahnhof.png

Posted by: hkp | 03/19/2011 at 01:52

Probably not quite what you had in mind, but the bus routes into central Stavanger, Norway, stop on the roads surrounding the Breiavatnet (a lake with a small park) which has the right sort of 'feel'. The train station is adjacent. Look at it here: http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=stavanger&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=18.881334,35.859375&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Stavanger,+Rogaland,+Norway&ll=58.968127,5.733318&spn=0.004032,0.012842&t=h&z=17

Posted by: Max | 03/19/2011 at 02:00

For some reason this immediately reminded me of the Slavyanskiy Bul'var station in Moscow, which is along the major road going west of the city, and is a major transfer point between the Metro and buses heading further out in the city and into the suburbs. The Metro line itself is actually some distance from the road, and you have to walk through a bit of a park to get from one to the other. There's certainly lots of foot traffic and it has the most suburban feel of these sort of places that I am familiar with in Moscow. Most other Metro stations are in much more urban settings that are generally filled with (unplanned and quite ugly) small to medium scale retail.

Posted by: anonymouse | 03/19/2011 at 02:53

I was going to say Hong Kong as well, the example I had in mind was Long Ping station in Yuen Long, New Territories.

Satellite imagery here.

At the north is Long Ping station, an stop on the elevated MTR West Rail heavy-rail metro line. Immediately south of the train station is a major bus plaza surrounded by all sorts of retail, and 200m to the south, on Castle Peak road, is the MTR light rail (running parallel to the West Rail line). Whether this counts as "suburban" is an interesting question--the "suburban" parts of Hong Kong have urban-level density, and Yuen Long is no exception; but it's a significant distance from the city center (Hong Kong island, Kowloon).

I may have pictures of the plaza somewhere at home.

Posted by: EngineerScotty | 03/19/2011 at 04:27

Hey,
One place that immediately springs to my mind is Piccadilly Gardens in Manchester, England, the main square in the city and the major interchange between two light rail lines, all the buses and the nearby Piccadilly heavy rail station, the main rail station for the city. A lot of money has been spent redeveloping it in recent years with fountains and cafes etc and is a major place to hang out.

http://www.ehsmithmajorprojects.co.uk/dynamic_pictures/overall_development.jpg

Posted by: Dave | 03/19/2011 at 05:05

Pioneer Courthouse Square in Portland! The city is small enough to be considered a suburb in certain contexts.

Posted by: Paul Hillsdon | 03/19/2011 at 05:12

Sorry, here's another link regarding Piccadilly Gardens. This one is a pdf from the local transit agency and has a diagram and more info.

http://www.gmpte.com/destination/Piccadilly_210211.pdf

Posted by: Dave | 03/19/2011 at 05:13

York University Commons in Toronto, ON- the commons is a rectangular grassy area with trees and a landscaped pond surrounded on three sides by a U-shaped bus roadway, served by local TTC buses (and a busway to the subway) and express GO buses to other suburban centres. On the other side of the roadway is a small shopping mall, an office tower, Vari Hall (a large atrium connected to the university buildings,) and a concourse on the south side. the east side of the commons is a public road where suburban York Region buses stop, as well as limited-stop BRT services to York Region and Brampton. In 2015, a subway station will have an entrance in the commons as well.


Posted by: Jonathon | 03/19/2011 at 05:36

My first thought was Alexanderplatz as well. So I contribute a few more pictures of it: [1] [2] [3] [4]. But I'm not so sure whether it is successful at being an urban space.

Although not being a square Piccadilly Circus is still an important transport node in London and a lively urban space.

Frankfurt's Konstabler Wache might fit the criterias. I can't judge whether it is pleasant place where people like to go though.

Posted by: Tobias | 03/19/2011 at 05:57

A more detailed diagram of Alexanderplatz (shows you all the transit connections)
http://www.bvg.de/index.php/de/binaries/asset/download/474783/file/1-1

Posted by: smoo | 03/19/2011 at 06:28

Interesting that so far we're not seeing any good examples from North America.

There is actually an example in Vancouver, though it is not suburban. Granville Station. The connection from the buses on Granville Street to the trains is through a shopping arcade (under the Bay). This could be used as a study for how the traffic flows between the two modes and then applied in an open-air suburban environment.

Most models in North America put the buses close to the trains - guess we don't like to walk.

Piccadilly Gardens, in my view, doesn't meet the criteria as the buses and trams are adjacent to each other.

Posted by: David M | 03/19/2011 at 06:45

Although in an urban setting, Mont-Royal metro station in Montréal has this type of setting, I believe. The metro entrance is built on one end of a public square that you have to cross if you arrive by bus. All the buses stop so you are on the "right" side of the road and it's always full of people (it's a excellent meeting spot). There's also a Bixi stand there and it's one of the most used in the city.

http://stm.info/metro/Mont-Royal.pdf

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=fr&geocode=&q=station+mont-royal&aq=&sll=45.52914,-73.58222&sspn=0.029884,0.05888&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Station+Mont-Royal&ll=45.524572,-73.581879&spn=0.000934,0.00184&t=h&z=19

http://www.flickr.com/photos/laurmarshall/4956388465/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/photo_guit/2045598796/

Posted by: Mathieu | 03/19/2011 at 07:22

Good quiz! I'm sure I'm missing plenty, but these spring to mind:

Fruitvale Plaza, Oakland CA
http://www.parkingcarma.com/images/Site/4a523679-d95b-dc11-8064-0013723eb578.JPG

Rosslyn Metro Plaza, Arlington VA - Existing, plaza is being redeveloped and enlarged.
http://www.rosslynva.org/build/development/detail/8

Harvard Square, Cambridge MA fits your bill - aside from the suburban tag.
http://bryant3.bryant.edu/~gcrawfor/images/harvardsquare3.jpg

Mel Lastman Square, Toronto ON
http://www.amdt.ca/survey/nycc.JPG

Posted by: Ryan | 03/19/2011 at 07:27

Berlin Alexanderplatz is definitely not suburban - it's the center of (East)Berlin. But the city has a lot of transit nodes somewhat like you describe, maybe not quite as living-room-like. These are basically former towns that have now become part of the metropolitan area, some are within the proper city limits, some are further out - maybe not really what you'd consider "suburban" in structure.

These probably exist one the one hand because of the way the city grew as a a joining of many smaller towns (where the center city wasn't necessarily as dominant as in Paris, i.e.), the wall, which meant that the city didn't develop a distinct center (note the absence of office towers at least until the fall of the wall), and the S-Bahn rapid transit/commuter rail system, which acts as a rapid transit connecting all these activity centers.
Examples:

within the today's city border (since the 1920s merger):
- S Koepenick image
-Spandau plan. street view. This particular station is also a node in the road network, so the pedestrian plaza area is displaced a bit further north-north-east.

outside city proper (hard to find decent images, because streetview only covers the city proper):
- S Potsdam -- note that Potsdam is a city adjacent to Berlin, with around 120k people, so this ain't really suburban. The station was redesigned as a shopping mall kind of thing, and the square in front of it has all the trams and buses. The shopping mall probably moved most of the activity inside the complex, rather than around or in the square that is in front of it (image)
- S Hennigsdorf image.
- S Königs Wusterhausen image. The square seems a bit more dead in the images than I remember.

- .. actually, it's pretty hard to find nodes that are not only outside of town, the major local node connecting buses to the rapid transit, have the node be around some square -- but at the same time have that square be a 'public living room' (and images that would indicate that).


Posted by: ant6n | 03/19/2011 at 07:32

The designation as suburban is borderline, and "successful" might be pushing it, but St Leonard's Railway Station on cityrail (which you are probably familiar with) does seem like a bad implementation of this (with a semi enclosed windswept plaza between the trains and buses on the Pacific Highway)

Posted by: Richard Green | 03/19/2011 at 07:50

A rapid transit stop is probably right at a civic square, though if someone found a square with trams on three sides and lots of people connecting between them, I could work with that.

Is the condition of three tram routes on a square actually made to exclude the numerous tram junctions of two routes?

Posted by: Tobias | 03/19/2011 at 08:06

Not sure this meets all the criteria, but Zoetermeer in the Netherlands has from left to right in one bundle: a national rail line, a 6 lane highway, a suburban light rail / streetcar (depending on where on the line) and some busses.
See here: <http://maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=nl&q=Centraal&aq=&sll=52.047201,4.477074&sspn=0.000874,0.002642&ie=UTF8&t=h&rq=1&ev=p&split=1&radius=0.07&hq=Centraal&hnear=&ll=52.047535,4.477572&spn=0.000874,0.002642&z=19>
Another dutch option is "Utrecht Centraal", Utrecht central station, but it's lots of things in one, more than you probably want. Specifically, on one side there are: regional bus lines (radiating out up to 40km), local bus lines (Utrecht and suburbs), and a rapid transit light rail line. In buildings surrounding the space is a walkway to a shopping station (so a destination). Howevere there are also other rail lines (it's the busiest train station in the Netherlands). <http://maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=nl&q=busstation&aq=&sll=52.089468,5.112001&sspn=0.003329,0.010568&ie=UTF8&t=h&rq=1&ev=zo&split=1&radius=0.27&hq=busstation&hnear=&ll=52.089745,5.111861&spn=0.003329,0.010568&z=17>

Finally, another viable option is "Rotterdam Alexander", a train station, metro station. Lots of buses, a highway nearby and a huge mall with "mega stores". <http://maps.google.nl/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=nl&geocode=&q=rotterdam+alexander&aq=&sll=52.089745,5.111861&sspn=0.003329,0.010568&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Alexander&ll=51.95101,4.552031&spn=0.007009,0.021136&t=h&z=16>

Posted by: Joel Haasnoot | 03/19/2011 at 08:08

Westlake Center in Seattle is the terminus for light rail, and has buses stopping all over the place. But whether you would walk across the plaza to transfer between rail and bus (or bus and bus) depends on which bus route you're taking, since some routes stop right at some doors that would take you directly to the light rail station. There's also the monorail, but it doesn't go anywhere useful so it's mostly for tourists (who as far as I could tell, usually rent a car when they go to Seattle).

Unfortunately, I cannot find any pictures of it with a bus, despite the fact that literally every street adjacent to it has at least one bus route. And the light rail station is in the basement of a mall (possibly also disqualifying it?). It is also not suburban.

I can think of many, many lively plazas next to train/bus stations in Japanese suburbs, but in every case the buses stop right next to the station, so there is no need to walk any distance in order to transfer between them.

Posted by: Tsuyoshi | 03/19/2011 at 09:22

@Everyone. Thanks.

What I'm trying to illustrate is that you can organize connecting passengers in such a way as to contribute animation to a public square. The key is to design the space so that the short walk between one transit service and another is a walk across the square, thus inviting engagement with the square's other activities. This is probably more important in suburban settings where a public square is a more difficult thing to get going.

In most cases, this is going to be a rapid transit stop connecting with local buses or trams. I don't care about the mode of the transit involved, as long as it generates substantial volumes of people crossing the square to make connections, at many times of day. So Cap'n, if "commuter rail" means "mostly peak-only service" that probably wouldn't do it.

I need a civic square, not just an interchange. By civic square I mean a large public space that is largely hardscaped and designed to be a focal point for activity and civic identity. If your suburb had to overthrow a dictator, you'd naturally use this place for your rallies. Obviously it doesn't have to be literally square.

I need the civic square to be successful in the sense of being attractive and desirable for a range of uses, including but not limited to the prosperity of any retail in or facing the square.

Hope that helps. I'm still going through the great responses.

Posted by: Jarrett | 03/19/2011 at 09:40

Copley Square in Boston - Green Line is in subway at this point, buses on the surface. Back Bay Station is a short block away with the Orange Line, commuter rail and Amtrak.

Posted by: Duncan Watry | 03/19/2011 at 09:44

Could you post some examples of suburban civic squares to give an idea of what you're looking for? In terms of centrally designed civic squares in an urban connection Portland State University's Urban Plaza is a pretty successful recent effort. (and of course Pioneer Square).

If an area is built up enough to have a proper civic square seems like it would be an urban area.

Posted by: Andrew Seger | 03/19/2011 at 10:52

@ ant6n
Spandau, Köpenick, Potsdam and Henningsdorf, they are all urban centres of their own and not suburban either.

@ all
Don't lively public square and being suburban exclude each other? Just a thought.

Posted by: Tobias | 03/19/2011 at 10:57

Yordale Centre, Scarborough Town Centre and Don Mills Centre in Toronto all are on major rapid transit lines and have bus terminals in them. The First two also have interurban GO bus service as well.

Posted by: Robert Wightman | 03/19/2011 at 11:38

Well, I'm not sure how great of an example this is, but Brisbane's King George Square is the site of Brisbane City Hall, has the southern terminus of the Northern Busway. King George square is also adjacent to the Adelaide St, the major "bus mall" through the CBD. However, it isn't really surrounded by bus stops, at least not major ones, as in your diagram.

Posted by: Galen Weld | 03/19/2011 at 12:08

For years, there was a major bus terminal in Hamilton (Ontario) at Gore Park, at their main downtown intersection. While downtown, not suburban, and while there was no rapid transit component, the configuration was probably not unlike what you mention. Buses traveled westbound on the south side of the park, so they loaded directly into the park (and passengers waited there). There were also other connecting buses westbound north of the park, so there was cross traffic in the park in addition to passengers waiting.

It was never popular, though, and when it was open there were numerous schemes to try and "get the buses out of Gore Park", until finally a new terminal was opened on MacNab Street to the west. (Google Maps has an entry that says "The new MacNab Transit Terminal draws the traffic out of the south leg of Gore Park, which was the Hamilton Street Railway's downtown hub for more than a century.")

Posted by: Brent | 03/19/2011 at 12:59

I'll pitch my vote for the small city of Okayama in Japan. The area outside the station maybe a little too small to be considered a square, but it is designed around being a place for people to gather. The station is typical Japanese, serving local trains and a shinkansen. A major bus interchange stops there and a tram stop is across the road. Every time I have been there I walked out of the station there was a massive group of young kids gathering before making their way off into the the nights festivities. Sometimes there were events set up as well. For such an unassuming city it had an amazing local buzz going on.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=okayama,+japan&aq=&sll=34.91254,134.220829&sspn=0.072073,0.110378&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Okayama,+Okayama+Prefecture,+Japan&ll=34.66556,133.91893&spn=0.002259,0.003449&t=k&z=18

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Okayama_station_east_entrance_2007.9.JPG

Posted by: K | 03/19/2011 at 14:47

Is the Fresno downtown bus interchange something you have in mind?

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=36.736527,-119.789032&spn=0.004335,0.004812&t=h&z=18

Posted by: Wad | 03/19/2011 at 16:10

The layout you mention seems the one of Gare Montparnasse in Paris
http://www.bonjourlafrance.com/france-trains/stations/images/gare-montparnasse-train-station.jpg

The main access (intercity and suburban train) is done thru Place Raoul dautry, where the bus connect on the "side" of the plaza, while the main "rapid transit" station face a shopping mall (opposite side).

Is it work like intended and like you envision? I am not sure: it is certainly better than most of the North American "public plaza", but as a Parisian or Tourist, you will not go there, ...unless you have a train to take...

That sayd, Paris city is not short of resource to give life to the plaza, which host a ice ring in winter since several years:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/64231793@N00/348838578/
(the building on the left of the picture is the railway station, and you can see a bus arriving on a side on the square).

Obviously a Paris Railway station hardly equate a suburban one...but the point is that even there the idea you want to promote hardly live up..and there is some reason for it...TRANSFER...the "depressing" word you mention...the transit rider is "wasting" time on the square and is here against his choice...

The food outlets around gather to the people on the hurry. people having time, will go to nearby and more relaxing place like Place du 18 Juin (where was the former Montparnasse station) which is now much more vibrant than Place Raoul Dautry (lot of theater, restaurant with patio...)

But Montparnasse Raoul Dautry doesn't work that bad... because most of the people in "hurry" stay underground (subway connection), and the neighborhood is dense enough to have local people (with sense of the place) not be outnumbered by "commuters"...

That is not the case, let says at Paris les halles...a commentator has provided the example of Granville station in Vancouver: hardly an example of success...

Paris les Halles is like it too, people doesn't gonna stay there too much. Beaubourg few step away is where people gonna like to stay.

In the draft of the Surrey station you give, we can see 2 towers in the back: they are existing, it is SFU by reputed architect Bing Thom...they offer a plaza, and I can guess people with a bit of time could prefer spend it there than in the middle of a plaza surrounded by transit, where most of the people will be running to catch be a bus, be a train..

Some other commentators have provided Hong Kong examples. I don't know the specific of the station they have suggested... but a typical hong Kong subway station is build more or less integrated to a Mall...you are more or less invited to go thru to connect to your bus.
It works well nevertheless...and why? because the mall is in itself a destination...where you will have a different social mix / motivation to be there...it is what happen Place du 18 Juin more than at place Raoul Dautry at Montparnasse station (though that the ice ring like other activity like market try to provide a motivation to be there)...

That is, it is important to enhance the "transfer" experience both for the transit rider and the the community, since too often "transfer location" are synonym of "crime" and other bad experience...

Not long time ago, Surrey BC (the city, the draft picture is referring too) had hosted a contest to among other goals, design a new "transit oriented town".
I had blogged on it:
http://voony.wordpress.com/2010/02/22/newton-new-town/ result was disappointing at best (and jury choice was the worst I could have think:
the winner had even go as far to say:
"my design could fit in any place"

That was the problem of hiss design...no sense of the place! (that was then more particularly no integration at all of the transit element).

Posted by: voony | 03/19/2011 at 16:11

I've always marveled at what the San Diego area has accomplished with transit centers. San Diego manages to not just get development near its stations, but seemingly entire civic ecosystems as well.

Here's Santee, the easternmost suburb reachable by Trolley. It's a suburban shopping center -- about 80% of surface area is still parking -- but its wrapped around the Trolley.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=32.841669,-116.980834&spn=0.00457,0.004812&t=h&z=18

There's Rio Vista, in the city of San Diego itself. This whole urban village was shoehorned into a suburban area:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=32.773849,-117.142123&spn=0,0.002406&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=32.773849,-117.142123&panoid=b7RyKkOzxmBRp2hRN6isXg&cbp=12,38.06,,0,5

Palomar College in San Marcos (note how the Sprinter and bus stations are not connected; passengers must cross the street. The bus center came first):

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=33.147913,-117.185299&spn=0.002198,0.002406&t=h&z=19

Posted by: Wad | 03/19/2011 at 17:38

How about Subiaco station in Perth?

Posted by: Joshua | 03/19/2011 at 19:52

There's one at Woolwich Arsenal station in London, though the bus stops are on the other side of the street.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Woolwich+Arsenal&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Woolwich+Arsenal+station&ll=51.490081,0.067967&spn=0.001787,0.004072&t=h&z=18

Posted by: Aidan Stanger | 03/19/2011 at 20:43

After I posted the previous comment, I noticed the layout at Woolwich Arsenal has been changed so some of the bus stops do put you right into the square.

The stations itself is only diagonally opposite the square, and not all sides of it have buses, but it seems to fit your description very well.

Posted by: Aidan Stanger | 03/19/2011 at 20:55

Ottawa's Rideau Centre is a pretty good example. The Rideau Centre mall is sandwiched between Rideau Street, a four lane road with bus lanes where only local buses stop- the ones that go across the city, but slowly, and the MacKenzie-King Bridge, where the Transitway BRT buses as well as rush hour commuter express runs from literally every part of the city. Transferring between the two requires a walk through the mall up two floors.

Posted by: Jonathon | 03/20/2011 at 02:25

There is a bus/tram to metro and train transfer across Zuidplein in suburban Amsterdam. There are some shops on the sides of the plaza.

It's pretty easy to see how this works on the map. There's a tram station in the middle and bus stops on either side of the street at the north end of the plaza. Amsterdam Zuid is on the south side of the plaza (and actually is in the middle of a freeway). The metro stop is near the middle of the plaza.

I made this cross-plaza transfer from the tram to the train to Utrecht once on a visit to Amsterdam. It was early in the morning and my memory of it isn't the greatest. Fortunately, there's a wikipedia article about this station, which even includes a diagram showing how to find the trains, metro, and tram stops. Of course, the bus connections are not shown.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdam_Zuid_railway_station

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ZuidToVU.png

http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=UTF-8&q=amsterdam&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Amsterdam,+North+Holland,+The+Netherlands&ll=52.33983,4.873112&spn=0.003559,0.013733&t=h&z=17

Posted by: mikef0234 | 03/20/2011 at 05:15

I have several examples in the Metro Copenhagen area that might fit your needs. I have ordered them from most fitting to least fitting your criteria.

1. Vanløse Station (Metro + S-Tog [Denmarks version of the RER, frequent all day commuter rail] + Local Bus). Here, there is a small square with bus stops on the same side of the street as the square. To get to the train station from the buses, you must cross the square.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&q=Vanlose+station&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl

2. Christianshavn Station (Metro + Rapid, Suburban and Local Bus). While not exactly suburban (at one point in history it would have been) this Metro Stop + square serves as the downtown for the area of Christianshavn in Copenhagen. The Metro Stop is at the edge of the square, and there are bus stops on the same side and opposite side of the street defining the square. To get to the Metro Stop, you must "enter" the square.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=christianshavn+station&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

3. Amagerbro Station (Metro + Papid, Suburban and Local Bus). Perhaps this is trending more towards a pedestrian street than a square, it nonetheless serves as the focal point for the "suburban" Amager District in Copenhagen. You also have to enter the "square" to reach the Metro Station.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=amagerbro+station&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wl

4. Fredericksberg Station (Metro + Local Bus) Here there is a small square adjacent to the Frederickberg Centret(Mall). There is a larger connected square behind the mall which is full of life, though it is not directing animated by connecting passengers.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Sylows+Alle,+Frederiksberg,+Danmark&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=Sylows+Alle,+2000+Frederiksberg,+Denmark&gl=us&ei=IgSFTd-LFcew0QH37eXgCA&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ8gEwAA

Posted by: Alex Hyde-Wright | 03/20/2011 at 06:32

The Justin Herman Plaza / Ferry Plaza / Ferry Building area in San Francisco is a major destination and interchange area, although the three are separated by one-way sections of a major avenue (The Embarcadero).

Firstly, the Ferry Building is an upscale shopping center, and is where most commuter ferries from other areas of the Bay Area wind up.

The Ferry Plaza is across the avenue (across two lanes of it, actually), with a historic streetcar station.

Across another two lanes of the Embarcadero is Justin Herman plaza (complete with an open-air market), with a major local bus terminal (4 lines plus one peak-period express) on the other side of it.

A minute away is Embarcadero Station, the easternmost underground rapid transit station in San Francisco--making it a major connection point for transit users. A cable car terminal is also located there.

Of course, it's not suburban, but I could imagine it being used in a suburban context.

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=justin+herman+plaza+on+market+street&layer=c&sll=37.794932,-122.394905&cid=13122685780295372461&cbp=13,58.27,,0,1.31&cbll=37.795021,-122.394375&hl=en&ie=UTF8&hq=justin+herman+plaza+on+market+street&hnear=&ll=37.795127,-122.394454&spn=0.005256,0.013078&z=17&iwloc=A&panoid=lIOplgh4bsypEwnN9jVKMw

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=stuart+and+market&aq=&sll=37.794686,-122.393736&sspn=0.005468,0.013078&ie=UTF8&rq=1&ev=p&radius=0.43&split=1&filter=0&hq=stuart+and+market&hnear=&ll=37.79444,-122.394669&spn=0.005468,0.013078&z=17&layer=c&cbll=37.79437,-122.394594&panoid=k8Umx5htNhmvSgWqPa-XMw&cbp=12,74.82,,0,-3.12

[Golliwog]

Yes you have a point, but there are still service limitations. We do not have enough buses or mini buses to properly service our rail network in such a fashion. They do try where they can, but they can't just snap their fingers and say "Let there be buses". As for competing bus routes, there is the 390 from Mitchelton and the 345 from Alderley, which may have the train beaten on frequency but certainly not capacity, and I would argue those routes don't so much compete, as on one hand complement the train, but also serve a different catchment.

[Golliwog]

I didn't use the train line this weekend, but heard from some friends that with the rain for most of the weekend, Translink or QR staff were handing out ponchos to FG passengers who had to wait for their buses in the wet. Good effort I reckon.

[railguy83]

    I wouldnt have wanted to be working out in the rain last weekend!  They have moved the bufferstop and taken down some of the overhead wires from the turn back, expect to see the track coming up soon behind the bufferstop. Progress 

[Golliwog]

Do you know what they did that required the closure of the Arbor St crossing? I haven't noticed anything, but it could have been cancelled or deffered because of the weather.

[railguy83]

Does not look like anything has actually changed on the crossing itself, however when I went past on the weekend there was a lot of construction activity on both sides of the crossing, better to have the crossing closed than run over by an excavator i guess...

[Golliwog]

There were people handing out a community update for the project on the platforms this morning. The additional car park on the old tavern site is due to open on the 28th March. It also informs us that while the temporary carpark will be sealed (I thought originally it wasn't going to be) it will be outside the coverage of security cameras and lighting at the station.

I also asked the lady handing out the update if she knew when the switch to the new temporary platform was to take place, and she said the 27th April, which I believe is another scheduled closure of the line.

There is also a sign on the outside fence of the car park, facing Arbor St notifying everyone that the plans for the development of the new tavern are available for comment online. I didn't manage to get the website, but I think its just the BCC development website.

Oh, and I almost forgot, but the community update says the station design is progressing, and that they will be giving the community a preview of what Ferny Grove station will look like in the near future.

I've noticed that the temporary platform has a set of stairs on the City end. Unless this is just for emergency escape, this strikes me as a plus as it may signal the intent to keep access from that end of the station.

[railguy83]

If they were going to keep the Arbor St Platform Access open im pretty sure that they would have had a ramp and not stairs, I think your thought of emergency access is more likey IMHO 

[Golliwog]

If they were going to keep the Arbor St Platform Access open im pretty sure that they would have had a ramp and not stairs, I think your thought of emergency access is more likey IMHO 

Yeah, thats exactly why I figured it probably wasn't the case. Still, wishful thinking.

[Golliwog]

Further works have been completed. They have installed track and ballast on the new temporary platform, and there was a track machine of some kind on it yesterday. They also appeared to have just finished up coating the temporary platform with a gripping surface on top of the wooden boards that have been there for a while. I think it was last week they were putting on the yellow bumpy stand clear lines, as well as the blue wheelchair sticker marking where wheelchairs should wait.

The temporary ticket office and toilets have now arrived, but don't have access yet. There's also quite a sizable pile of ballast next to the BP, as well as a large number of sleepers in the back of the dog park area (behind the Police station). There's also a number of turnout and track pieces opposite the Conavalla/Arbor St intersection.

[railguy83]

Ramping up for a big Easter closure by the looks of it, would be good to have some before and after photos for the commissioning of the new temporary platform!   

[Golliwog]

Ramping up for a big Easter closure by the looks of it, would be good to have some before and after photos for the commissioning of the new temporary platform!   

Except for the fact its not connected at the city end, the way the temporary platform looks you would almost think its already in use. Went through this afternoon and they have finished up the ramp at the Samford end (there had been a large gap in it to gain access to a pit underneath it). I didn't get a good look from the train, but it looks like there are more turnout pieces than you would need for just the turnout for the new platform. I know the end plan is to have a diamond double crossover so perhaps its bits of that turning up early? Either way, I agree, from the looks of it there will be some large changes come the Easter closure. From a project point of view, a 5 day track shutdown would be like a gift from above.

[railguy83]

A 5 day shutdown might be great, however most people probably will not be appreciative of the people who will be working most if not all of their Easter break, im also looking out for the courier mail article about track closure on Anzac day and "Traffic Chaos" or "Off the Tracks"   

I think in an effort to not have a Corinda-Darra type "closure every weekend" they will try and get large chunks of work done in the closures avaliable to them. I would not be suprised to see the new station turnout and a substantial amount of the scissor diamond installed over Easter 

[Golliwog]

True, but a bustitution from Mitchelton to FG at least isn't too bad. Theres a street or two that runs right alongside the train line for most of it, although I think outbound the buses tend to go a different route (around the TAFE at Grovely). Not sure why exactly.

[BrizCommuter]

I know the end plan is to have a diamond double crossover

I assume that this will be located between Arbor St and the platform?

[Golliwog]

I know the end plan is to have a diamond double crossover

I assume that this will be located between Arbor St and the platform?

Not sure. I've only seen the design for the crossover itself (which could have been out of date) but it didn't specify exactly where it would be located. If its not between Arbor St and the platform I figure it would probably be directly adjacent to the Arbor St crossing.

[railguy83]

There is probably not enough room between Arbor St and the station to locate a scissor diamond, especially with all the pedestrian mazes etc in the area, turnouts and pedestrians dont mix 

I would think it would be located between Samford Road and Arbor St, and then as close to Arbor St as possible...

[Golliwog]

There is probably not enough room between Arbor St and the station to locate a scissor diamond, especially with all the pedestrian mazes etc in the area, turnouts and pedestrians dont mix 

I would think it would be located between Samford Road and Arbor St, and then as close to Arbor St as possible...

But you're forgetting that in the new station, there is no pedestrian access from that end of the station. At least that's what all the notices have said so far. As far as I'm aware, when they switch to the temporary platforms, that's when pedestrian access from the City end of the station will be closed permanently.

[railguy83]

I meant the pedestrian maze for Arbor St on the station side of the road, there are new slabs for what looks like a new maze a few meters towards the station from the current ones, but obviously it will not be connecting to the platform except for emergency exit??

[Golliwog]

Oh, is THAT what those slabs are for. I couldn't work it out as they're raised up above the current ground level. If thats the case then yeah, I would expect there wouldn't be much room before the platform.

[BrizCommuter]

If the crossover is located on the opposite side of Arbor St to the station, then would a train waiting at the crossover's approach signal for an empty platform block Samford Rd?

[railguy83]

Its a little over 200m from Samford Road to the bridge (one would assume the diamond is between the bridge and arbor st) so depending on where the signals are positioned a train should have enough room to clear the crossing if it is held up at the diamond, im sure the signalling designers have taken this into account 

My concern is what happens when they ramp up the train frequency and the boom gates are constantly down in the train peak (which is concurrent with road peak)...

[BrizCommuter]

My concern is what happens when they ramp up the train frequency and the boom gates are constantly down in the train peak (which is concurrent with road peak)...

According to the CRR projected frequencies, the Ferny Grove Line will be ramped up by the pathetic grand total of 1tph to 8tph. This will however be a 3tph increase beyond Mitchelton.

A 2 station platform will limit frequencies to around 11tph with 8 minute dwells, and 3 minute platform re-occupation time.

[BrizCommuter]

Its a little over 200m from Samford Road to the bridge (one would assume the diamond is between the bridge and arbor st) so depending on where the signals are positioned a train should have enough room to clear the crossing if it is held up at the diamond, im sure the signalling designers have taken this into account 

My concern is what happens when they ramp up the train frequency and the boom gates are constantly down in the train peak (which is concurrent with road peak)...

As a train is approx 144m, that only leaves 66m. The approach signal is unlikely to be immediately in front of the crossover, so you can take a bit more off that 66m. I can see trains travelling s-l-o-w-l-y across the level crossing when the service goes up the wall, and both platforms are occupied.

[Golliwog]

Would FG be an acceptable location to do crew changovers? They can drop the turnover time by a lot.

Also, where does the statement that a 2 platform station is limited to 11tph come from? And a train every 5 minutes would be a truely terrible frequency I'm pretty sure you can get 12tph. Although I can't see cars using Arbor street or Samford Rd being happy with that. Nor crossings further down the line.

[HappyTrainGuy]

My concern is what happens when they ramp up the train frequency and the boom gates are constantly down in the train peak (which is concurrent with road peak)...

That's a common problem at Carseldine/Geebung at certain times when express trains and all station trains all meet up at roughly the same time. At Carseldine nearly every path conflicts. By that I mean the gates go down for the Caboolture and stay down as the Ipswich service is now on approach and vice versa. But there are times when the Caboolture/Ipswich trains cross at exactly the same time. In the arvo peak just after 5 Geebung sometimes gets the gates down for the Caboolture all stations train, go up for a couple minutes then they go down again for the Caboolture express, they stay down as the Ipswich train is now on approach and they still stay down after the Ipswich train has left as the Petrie all stations train is then on approach to the station. Its not uncommon to see a line up of cars on all 4 roads around the station. Either rat run or be prepared to wait. Would be funny though if they put up signs near the Ferny Grove crossings saying "If you caught the train you'd be home by now"  

[BrizCommuter]

Also, where does the statement that a 2 platform station is limited to 11tph come from?

8 minutes dwell + 3 minutes platform re-occuption = 11 minutes
11 minutes / 2 platforms = 5.5 minutes
60 minutes / 5.5 minutes = 10.9tph

Obviously a shorter dwell would increase capacity, but at the expense of requiring extra crew and decreasing delay recovery.

[Golliwog]

Ok, I had done a quick mock up just using excel and miss counted.

I don't see them as "extra" crew, rather each crew just spends a bit longer at Ferny Grove to allow trains to turn around faster. And you would realistically only be doing it in peak anyway, off peak you would only really be wanting 6tph tops, and would more likely just have 4tph.

[mufreight]

As Ferny Grove is not a depot station with avaliable crew they are extra crew which have to be sourced from and returned to the nearest depot, Mayne/Bowen Hills on completion of their shift so it becomes additional crews for the additional services plus two additional crews, one for each peak because of the spread of hours.