Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade

[Jon Bryant]

As a kid who grew up hiking all over the valley when it was Dairy Farms any rural character has been well and truely gone.  The idea that it is a semi-rural area with preserving is just protecting or encouraging unsustainable living.  The valley could actually be developed into a highly sustainable medium yo low density community rather than locked into a car orientated domitory community.

If Zurich can do it so can we.   This is not fantasy it is leading edge.    

[p858snake]

Just a point of reference, When people talk about Samford in relation to public transport, they are using that as a descriptive name that includes but not limited to; Samford Village, Samford Valley, High Vale, Wights Mountain, Draper, Dayboro, Camp Mountain and surrounding areas. So if your going to use population stats, Get some decent ones because when you say there is population of 700 that is less than the total number of students at the state primary school.

there seems to be a trend to having only 1 access point at stations now, most likely to stop fare evasion and up security

Based on the replies in Newsletter Two, They are trying to claim that its for safety reasons and "ease of access" which clearly means they didn't read the public comments because alot of the complaints/comments about the arbor street access (current location) was about it should be there to reduce walking distance for people with physical health issues (walking issues for example). If the issue was gate access because of crossing three tracks, couldn't they make it a over crossing to a bridge that had elevator/stair access?
----

I disagree, if the gov stops urban sprawl, then all the places that are already urban will be intensified. IMO, Samford isn't really urban, its a cross of rural and urban. Most places out there have a quite low pop. density and I think most Samfordilians would be up in arms if you tried to increase the density out there. They already started a campaign against having a Coles/Woolworths supermarket put in on main street.

I'm not saying I wouldn't support an extension to Samford, but I doubt the gov would support it because I doubt they realise how many people who are currently using FG come from Samford.

They already started a campaign against having a Coles/Woolworths supermarket put in on main street.

Wow, I really don't understand communities which campaign against a local supermarket being put in.
If anything, they should be campaigning to shut the local pub because of glassings, violent people and yucky smells...

Us Samford district people aren't against a another shopping center, we just don't want a giant shopping complex, we want something that will compete with IGA but not over shadow the village. And based on your redneckish "all pubs are good for is fights" stereo types I'm going to assume you have hardly been to any in Queensland (or most of australia) [especially the Samford Pub in question] pub.
----
The latest Newsletter (#2) also discusses Satellite car parking in Samford as patronage grows so I wonder if they already have their eye on some land and If they do, where/which is it....

Also one of the issues/comments raised was "Purchase the BP station and relocate the existing rail station to this site" was replied with "The cost to pull down an existing rail station and then rebuild it cannot be justifed.", Now I might just be silly but it sounds like the person has no idea of the location of these things since the only difference between that and the tavern is a piece of roadway and a level crossing (unfortunately not the one that people enjoy crashing into), and does the station building not need to be demolished anyway?

[mufreight]

P858Snake relevant comments , realistic with no pie in the sky fantasy.         

[Golliwog]

Newsletter No.3 is now available. http://www.qr.com.au/SEQIP/Images/QR00385_May2010_newsletter_web_tcm30-29492.pdf

Almost not worth reading. Just reoutlines the issues raised by the community last time but now has statistics about what % of people who commented said something about that. Basically a refreshed version of Newsletter No.2

[#Metro]

As a kid who grew up hiking all over the valley when it was Dairy Farms any rural character has been well and truely gone.  The idea that it is a semi-rural area with preserving is just protecting or encouraging unsustainable living.  The valley could actually be developed into a highly sustainable medium yo low density community rather than locked into a car orientated domitory community.

If Zurich can do it so can we.   This is not fantasy it is leading edge. 

In one of his books, Dr Paul Mees talks about some far flung tiny village that has PT to it. Below 300 people but still with a regular service.

[stephenk]

As a kid who grew up hiking all over the valley when it was Dairy Farms any rural character has been well and truely gone.  The idea that it is a semi-rural area with preserving is just protecting or encouraging unsustainable living.  The valley could actually be developed into a highly sustainable medium yo low density community rather than locked into a car orientated domitory community.

If Zurich can do it so can we.   This is not fantasy it is leading edge. 

In one of his books, Dr Paul Mees talks about some far flung tiny village that has PT to it. Below 300 people but still with a regular service.

But what is the public transport like to this far flung 300 capacity village?
Transport mode?
Capacity of mode?
Frequency?
Destination?
Terminus or on through route?

[#Metro]

Perhaps you should pick up his new book
Transport for Suburbia.

Dr Paul Mees is a Senior Lecturer in Global Studies, Social Science & Planning at RMIT

Paul Mees teaches and researches in the areas of transport planning and statutory planning. Before starting at RMIT in 2008, he taught urban planning at the University of Melbourne for 10 years, and before that was a Research Fellow at the Australian National University's Urban Research Program. Prior to becoming an academic, he worked as a lawyer. Paul is one of Australia's leading experts on urban public transport, and his work is internationally influential: for example, it provided the basis for the European Union's 2005 HiTrans project on improving public transport in medium-sized cities and towns (www.hitrans.org).

http://rmit.mobi/browse;ID=m6y24xgvy6as

[Golliwog]

I have no doubt that the book is definitely worth a read, but for those such as myself, who lack the funds with which to purchase it, could you please answer stephenks questions?

[#Metro]

You'll have to borrow it from a library somewhere.
Google books preview.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=D3K0FMVhcjsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Transport+for+Suburbia

[Golliwog]

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/Home/Projects_and_initiatives/Projects/Ferny_grove_precinct/

Vision for Ferny Grove Station Precinct
In parallel with the Keperra to Ferny Grove Rail Upgrade transport project, there is an opportunity to develop a broader vision for the Ferny Grove Station Precinct. This vision could see the integration of a mixed-use development on site with the upgraded Ferny Grove station.

Two potential visions for the station precinct have been developed for community comment. Each vision addresses Brisbane City Council's Upper Kedron/Ferny Grove Local Plan.

The first vision could result in a mixed-use precinct with a blend of facilities, including opportunities for retail, office space and a new tavern.

The second vision focuses on residential development, providing opportunities for a greater proportion of medium-density dwellings with some supporting retail/commercial space.

Both visions will:

•capitalise on the railway track duplication and station upgrades
•integrate with the upgraded station facilities
•deliver Transport Associated Development outcomes
•create a pedestrian focussed environment
•promote activity in and around the station core
•provide commuters with access to a broader range of convenience uses
•address Brisbane City Council's Upper Kedron/Ferny Grove Local Plan.

Theres two maps up there showing the 2 plans.

[#Metro]

Two potential visions for the station precinct have been developed for community comment. Each vision addresses Brisbane City Council's Upper Kedron/Ferny Grove Local Plan.

The first vision could result in a mixed-use precinct with a blend of facilities, including opportunities for retail, office space and a new tavern.

The second vision focuses on residential development, providing opportunities for a greater proportion of medium-density dwellings with some supporting retail/commercial space.

Wow. I can't believe I'm reading this. Ferny Grove TOD.
Now. What was that about no offices?

[Golliwog]

I would focus more on providing the tavern and office/commercial space. Theres plenty of residential space there already, sure its only low density, but that can be changed. I wouldn't bother with a supermarket either, theres already like 3 nearby, the Great Western at Keperra, the Coles shopping centre on McGinn Rd and the Safeway (I think its a safeway, definatly a grocery store of some kind) just over on Ferny Way.

[O_128]

Commercial/Office space would be a big hit with commuters from samford.

[Jon Bryant]

Sorry a TOD with commuter car parking is not a TOD it is a high density car oriented development. Closer but keep trying DOTMR

[Golliwog]

I'd argue that point. Yes its not perfect if it still has car parking, however I'd say fat chance to anyone working in the precinct trying to get a park after 7.30am. Given the development would also be reducing car parking from their current levels, it would be a benefit, although they would need to focus on improving the feeder services around Ferny Grove/Upper Kedron. One of the real dissincentives to that is that FG station was on the boundary of zones 3/4, although the maps currently say its in zone 3, but one of the complaints from the community consultation sessions is that the feeder buses to FG and UK are zone 4, which drives away commuters. Same for those coming from Samford, although not many Samfordilians actually park at Ferny Grove, once you start driving it's easier to just keep going.

[somebody]

once you start driving it's easier to just keep going.

Which is one of the real problems with the whole notion of providing the car parks in the first place.

[Jon Bryant]

Thank you somebody You saved me writing this for the 20th time

[stephenk]

I'd argue that point. Yes its not perfect if it still has car parking, however I'd say fat chance to anyone working in the precinct trying to get a park after 7.30am. Given the development would also be reducing car parking from their current levels, it would be a benefit, although they would need to focus on improving the feeder services around Ferny Grove/Upper Kedron. One of the real dissincentives to that is that FG station was on the boundary of zones 3/4, although the maps currently say its in zone 3, but one of the complaints from the community consultation sessions is that the feeder buses to FG and UK are zone 4, which drives away commuters. Same for those coming from Samford, although not many Samfordilians actually park at Ferny Grove, once you start driving it's easier to just keep going.

Concerning your latter comment, do you have a breakdown of where people who park at Ferny Grove live?

Whilst I'm all for frequent feeder buses, I've stated many a time that a considerable percentage of the population cannot get a bus to/from the station and thus need car parking (either because they have to drop off/pick up children, do other things such as shopping, do not live near a bus route, or it may be tipping it down with rain).

Not providing sufficient parking will force many of these people to just drive all the way.

[Jon Bryant]

As I have written before, many cities around the world achieve urban design where you do all the activities you outline are in your neighborhood and walkable.  Just because wevhave built a car dependent city that encourages uses all over the place does not mean we cannot make the change.  It will take time and political determination BUT we have to make a start. 

[#Metro]

Whilst I'm all for frequent feeder buses, I've stated many a time that a considerable percentage of the population cannot get a bus to/from the station and thus need car parking (either because they have to drop off/pick up children, do other things such as shopping, do not live near a bus route, or it may be tipping it down with rain).

Not providing sufficient parking will force many of these people to just drive all the way.

I 100% agree with the frequent feeder buses. I like your idea of midibuses too. This is a no-brainer, and is probably cheaper than constructing large amounts of car parks. I disagree with the idea that so much parking needs to be made available. Who goes shopping in the AM peak hour?

Its even more reason why there should be a mixed used TOD at Ferny Grove station along with offices, shopping and a supermarket if a supermarket wants to open its doors there. As for school bus services, in terms of frequency, I think they would be poor. Use smaller buses more frequently than just one service. No wonder parents drive and pick up their children from school causing local car congestion, the frequency is terrible, no-one is supervising, and even getting hold of information of where the bus goes and when is hard.

These car parks are expensive to provide. Things can be done to keep the demand for a large number of car parks down to an absolute minimum.

As I have written before, many cities around the world achieve urban design where you do all the activities you outline are in your neighborhood and walkable.  Just because wevhave built a car dependent city that encourages uses all over the place does not mean we cannot make the change.  It will take time and political determination BUT we have to make a start.

100% agree.

[Golliwog]

Re: Stephenk

I don't have a breakdown of it personally, but a little birdy told me they did a few number plate surveys of the cars parked there during the day and the results came back that not many were registered in Samford, most were from closer in around Ferny Grove, Upper Kedron and Ferny Hills.

And I know theres a problem with provinding car parks, however given that they don't seem to want to upgrade the bus feeder service to the surrounding areas, and the afore mentioned issue with the zone boundary, there are a number of people who want to use the train but can't get there any other way, or have other things to do beforehand which preclude the use of a bus/bike/walk.

[ozbob]

--> http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/Home/Projects_and_initiatives/Projects/Ferny_grove_station_precinct

[somebody]

Re: Stephenk

I don't have a breakdown of it personally, but a little birdy told me they did a few number plate surveys of the cars parked there during the day and the results came back that not many were registered in Samford, most were from closer in around Ferny Grove, Upper Kedron and Ferny Hills.

And I know theres a problem with provinding car parks, however given that they don't seem to want to upgrade the bus feeder service to the surrounding areas, and the afore mentioned issue with the zone boundary, there are a number of people who want to use the train but can't get there any other way, or have other things to do beforehand which preclude the use of a bus/bike/walk.

The expectation that people that live in this area but can't walk to the train should use a feeder bus is a shocker.

[Ambition]

Hmm... having a look at both the options, they seemed to have overlooked the possibility of having to re-extend the rail line back up to Samford in the future, by blocking the perpetual path of the current track. Not very smart considering what others have said about them not promising better bus services for those who live in Samford and surrounding areas.

[Golliwog]

Hmm... having a look at both the options, they seemed to have overlooked the possibility of having to re-extend the rail line back up to Samford in the future, by blocking the perpetual path of the current track. Not very smart considering what others have said about them not promising better bus services for those who live in Samford and surrounding areas.

It is possible that the area beyond the end of the station will be built on, that they may not build it at ground level but start on say the first floor with room for the railway to be put through underneath later. Not a clue if they will though.

[ozbob]

We have made representations with respect to the station design.  Dismissed unfortunately.  The design of the station simply sends the wrong message:  this is the end of line.  In typical 'smart state' fashion this will haunt them down the track.

[Golliwog]

I know! It's stupid, they don't want to plan to leave their options open. Yes, its very likely that FG will be the end of the line for quite some time, but that doesn't mean it always will.

[somebody]

Hmm... having a look at both the options, they seemed to have overlooked the possibility of having to re-extend the rail line back up to Samford in the future, by blocking the perpetual path of the current track. Not very smart considering what others have said about them not promising better bus services for those who live in Samford and surrounding areas.

It's not likely to ever reach Samford.  It could go 1-2km further to serve a few people who now don't have much of a PT service though.

[mufreight]

Given time and population growth in the Samford Valley the line will eventually have to be reinstated to Samford but the route would be more direct than the old line possibly along the old alignment to the end of Lanita Road then a tunnel emerging near Petersen Road and regaining the old alignment into Samford to the old station site. 
A far more direct and faster line than the old line via Camp Mountain.

[Golliwog]

Yes, but whatever the route, growth will eventually occur out that way and it makes far more sense to leave the option of easily extending the FG line open than to not and have to put up with buses to the station.

[mufreight]

No argument there but how do you convince short sighted bean counters of this?

[Golliwog]

Sit down and have a nice long chat with them about how populations grow and in particular how SEQ is one of the fastest growing in Australia. Also, tell them to go read Integrated Transport Planning Framework For Queensland: A Guide for Transport Planning, published september 2003. It was written BY the Departments of Main Roads, Transport and Local Governance & Planning. In particular they should read the table/list on page 2 which outlines the major shifts in transport planning, one of which is:

From: Solutions that can perform well in a predicted future >> To: Solutions that can perform well in a range of possible futures

[p858snake]

Its even more reason why there should be a mixed used TOD at Ferny Grove station along with offices, shopping and a supermarket if a supermarket wants to open its doors there. As for school bus services, in terms of frequency, I think they would be poor. Use smaller buses more frequently than just one service. No wonder parents drive and pick up their children from school causing local car congestion, the frequency is terrible, no-one is supervising, and even getting hold of information of where the bus goes and when is hard.

There is a supermarket, It's less than a 10 minute walk to get to, but oh no... the adults might have to socialize with those unruly highschoolers.

what i would much prefer to see: (click for bigger):
* It does cut out a whole set of traffic lights and a level crossings thus making better traffic flow though that section
** But i think it might be a bit close to the end of the range there and cause issues espically with small turning lane.
* And you can keep that rear siding then (if you don't put the station in a funny location like at the end!) so steam trains can in theory still use the tracks (although we never get that loving on that line).
* Thin out the walkway on the left as you turn in from Samford Road and you can probably fit a car park or two extra on the end of the center bank, as well as the space from the where the road and BP was! could even go all out and get the vacant lot. (Infact, i wonder what the space differences between that and the tavern would be?)

But i'm betting its cheaper for the government to buy out the tavern then to face up to BP and try to buy that station out (which is already a traffic nightmare).

[Golliwog]

Things are progressing. From my train window this afternoon I spotted some QR workers surveying in the rail corridor between Keperra and Ferny Grove.

[mufreight]

Have to agree with you P858snake, but if they extended the line through to the end of Lanita Road they could build a car park of almost unlimited size, would not have to resume the tavern and the station building at Ferny Grove could be simplified, possibly with little overall project cost and the added advantage of increasing the gathering area for commuters without reducing the social amenity of the area.

[Golliwog]

Yes but if the car park was down at Lanita Rd, most people would be driving past FG station to get to the new station.

In other news, there was an article in this week North West News which was saying that the FG tavern owners and the Department were going to be signing an MOU that the tavern would be resumed as part of the project but it would be re-established as soon as possible within the new Ferny Grove station precinct thing.

[colinw]

I sincerely hope they are going to reconsider that station design at Ferny Grove, given that the WBTNI documents actively canvass the possibility of extending to Lanita Road.

[Golliwog]

Well I believe they are supposed to be releasing the detailed design sometime soonish. I suppose we'll wait and see what happens.

[mufreight]

I would think that the realities have escaped Golliwog see his quote.

Yes but if the car park was down at Lanita Rd, most people would be driving past FG station to get to the new station.

Were the line extended to the end of Lanita Road the parking there would capture those who currently now drive in from north of Ferny Grove, places such as Camp Mountain, Samford Village, Clear mountain,Yugar, Draper, Closburn and Cedar Creek, the space that that would then clear at Ferny Grove would then remove the need for additional parking there.
The costs of the provision of the line extension and provision of the new station when the cost and long term community benefit gained is weighed up against the community disruption and costs of the present proposal the present proposal is not justified.

[Golliwog]

Only if you built a bridge across to Samford Rd. Lanita Rd does not connect through to Samford or Camp Mountain. And most of what is between Lanita Rd and Samford Rd is parkland, try getting a massive parking lot approved without the locals complaining. And how slow would trains have to go around the curve in Lanita rd? It looks a fair bit sharper than the current curves between Keperra and FG which trains already slow down for.