New fare strategy - articles and discussion

[colinw]

Short & sharp, I like it. Mike O'Connor has had an axe to grind with QR for years now.  His "slumming it on the trains" tirade gets a run every year or two, and leaves one with the impression that the guy has the learning ability of a flatworm.

[Set in train]

Short & sharp, I like it. Mike O'Connor has had an axe to grind with QR for years now.  His "slumming it on the trains" tirade gets a run every year or two, and leaves one with the impression that the guy has the learning ability of a flatworm.

Colin, it is Queensland, the CM don't expect their target readers to have a memory! The columnists use a monkey bar of cliches and recycle stories. Being a journo in Qld for most is one big snooze.

[Gazza]

Author is also a dumbass for saying this too:

Let's see. You catch the train to work in the morning and home every evening. You do this from Monday to Friday. That's 10 trips.

Sorry. You'll have to go to work on Saturday as well to get your free trip. You don't want to work all weekend so you can get a free train ride? Tough luck.

The "free trip" offer, then, was a scam, a product of that well-tried government strategy of offering taxpayers an artfully wrapped gift box which, upon opening, they find to be empty.

In making this "free travel" announcement, Treasurer Andrew Fraser said: "We need to remember that we're running these trains and buses anyway and there are spare seats so we're happy for those regular commuters to get the benefit."

The seats are empty because they would be on weekends, Minister, when people are travelling to Coles, Woolies and Bunnings, not commuting to the city.

Your 11th trip doesn't have to be a train trip. And it doesn't have to be to the city.

and they do not want another thing to lose or expire.
There are many other views out there.

The credit on go cards lasts for 8 long years. We've HAD this discussion.

Put it this way, someone could put some money on it now, and not use PT again till the Commonwealth games are being hosted, and the credit would still be valid.

[#Metro]

All this article is code for one thing: I DON'T WANT TO PAY!!!

WAAA!!!

[dwb]

All this article is code for one thing: I DON'T WANT TO PAY!!!

WAAA!!!

We've heard you tramtrain, you can stop repeating it.

And yes, you are right, most people want everything for free... the real issue here is that we don't similarly seek users to pay for the other (private) alternatives, such as driving. So in this circumstance, and where pollies keep encouraging people to believe the road is theirs, for free, then people will not want to pay what seems like an extortionate price for what they perceive to be a low quality service.

It is hard to tighten a bolt unless you can also hold the nut on the other side, unfortunately Translink are tightening and tightening but have no control whatsoever over the nut.

Believe me, I agree with you, I think it is reasonable to increase fares (to a point - in fact I'd suggested three years of 10% rises myself) in order to improve service... yet this isn't really the goal, reducing the level of subsidy is the goal, and they're not really improving service, not enough anyway, especially as the more people who choose to drive, the slower and less efficient their buses become, those same very buses that are meant to be making them money. Buses stuck in traffic, and empty buses don't make money. Translink needs to develop an awareness of such, simply saying and repeating that higher fares will deliver crisper apples is really becoming obviously false... and this is the central thing beneath his usual politics that Mike OConnor was refering to. And same for Quirk, why the state hasn't come back and saying buses are losing money because there is no bus priority I have no idea!

[Golliwog]

Author is also a dumbass for saying this too:

Let's see. You catch the train to work in the morning and home every evening. You do this from Monday to Friday. That's 10 trips.

Sorry. You'll have to go to work on Saturday as well to get your free trip. You don't want to work all weekend so you can get a free train ride? Tough luck.

The "free trip" offer, then, was a scam, a product of that well-tried government strategy of offering taxpayers an artfully wrapped gift box which, upon opening, they find to be empty.

In making this "free travel" announcement, Treasurer Andrew Fraser said: "We need to remember that we're running these trains and buses anyway and there are spare seats so we're happy for those regular commuters to get the benefit."

The seats are empty because they would be on weekends, Minister, when people are travelling to Coles, Woolies and Bunnings, not commuting to the city.

Your 11th trip doesn't have to be a train trip. And it doesn't have to be to the city.

and they do not want another thing to lose or expire.
There are many other views out there.

The credit on go cards lasts for 8 long years. We've HAD this discussion.

Put it this way, someone could put some money on it now, and not use PT again till the Commonwealth games are being hosted, and the credit would still be valid.

Nor does the 11th (or 12th, 13th....) have to be on a weekend. You could do some extra trips during your lunch break during the week, or to the shops on a Thursday night.

Actually, your go card credit never expires. But the card itself has a 10 year expiry date. But you can get it changed any time provided you have used it sometime in the last 2 years, and also up to 90 days after the card has actually expired.

Source:
http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/go-card/check-and-change-your-expiry-date
http://translink.com.au/tickets-and-fares/go-card/top-up-your-go-card#expire

Wouldn't it be nice for journalists to do some investigating before they write crap? Hell, it's not like they even had to call up and ask, it's written plainly on their website for everyone to see.

[#Metro]

Believe me, I agree with you, I think it is reasonable to increase fares (to a point - in fact I'd suggested three years of 10% rises myself) in order to improve service... yet this isn't really the goal, reducing the level of subsidy is the goal, and they're not really improving service, not enough anyway, especially as the more people who choose to drive, the slower and less efficient their buses become, those same very buses that are meant to be making them money. Buses stuck in traffic, and empty buses don't make money. Translink needs to develop an awareness of such, simply saying and repeating that higher fares will deliver crisper apples is really becoming obviously false... and this is the central thing beneath his usual politics that Mike OConnor was refering to. And same for Quirk, why the state hasn't come back and saying buses are losing money because there is no bus priority I have no idea!

Disagree. There has been no cut to PT funding. Drivers wages are paid in absolute dollars not percentages. Goal or not the goal, that money is being used to fund BUZ upgrades and the like (the exception is trains!).

We could all say that the government should put in more money, on the other hand as services improve I think it is OK to charge provided that people who can't pay get concessions or exceptions (which they do).

The reality is, Australian PT systems are some of the most heavily subsidised in the world. Possibly a reflection of the urban form, but also possibility due to the commitment to a large proportion of providing coverage services that don't really pull passengers. I'm not surprised that as price goes up, these hourly or half hourly COVERAGE services will see pax fall further (incl. rail).

Fundamental thing is this- unless the network structure is changed, or hard decisions are made (incl. ripping out bus stops, steam ironing routes straight, tilting the proportion of services toward pax gain) then that's what you'll pay for.

I don't believe that most people can't afford PT. One can argue to reduce the price or increase the quality.
I'd rather increase the quality, cap coverage services to say 25% max, install the core frequent network and then once installation of that is done, recast the low frequency all-the-way-to-the-cbd services that run hourly or half hourly as frequent feeders terminating at the nearest major shopping centre interchange.

[dwb]

You're missing the point, there is no point increasing the price if you're undermining your own goals, you'll make LESS money if you increase it too much... and it is not about affordabilty, it is about perception.

Aussie systems are so heavily subsidised because no one wants to run them properly!

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail 25th November 2011 pages 36 - 37

Quality of transport services is driven by the price we're will to pay

[colinw]

All this article is code for one thing: I DON'T WANT TO PAY!!!

WAAA!!!

If you charge more for a product than the market is prepared to pay, you will fail.

Yelling at the customers won't achieve anything.

[#Metro]

"The bottom line is the 15% fare increase is being linked to an 0.8% ridership fall".

There you go. Now bring on the BUZ and let's see 100% increases in patronage!

[Gazza]

That said, there is a degree of self entitlement in some comments from the public, eg people who want a discount just because they are using it in the first place.

Anyway, I agree with Chris Hales article.

[#Metro]

You're missing the point, there is no point increasing the price if you're undermining your own goals, you'll make LESS money if you increase it too much... and it is not about affordabilty, it is about perception.

Let me make it explicit: Which BUZ route do you want to see de-BUZzed so that we can get cheaper fares? BUZ 100? BUZ 180? BUZ 412? Assuming a BUZ costs around $3 million year to run, we could 'save' around $10 million right there which could be spent on cheaper fares during peak hour (a bad idea!).

Aussie systems are so heavily subsidised because no one wants to run them properly!

Australian systems are heavily subsidised possibly because
- urban form
- network philosophy (just look at Moggill Road, buses run in parallel to trains and there are a bazillion of those buses)
- commitment to running lots of welfare-style services that are half-hourly/hourly and stop everywhere
- absolute recalcitrance to give buses priority (i.e. Bus lanes/Coronation Drive) and rip out bus stops to increase stop spacing (compare bus speeds on Belconnen Way (80 km/hour +) in Canberra to say, Coro Drive (15 km/hr??))

(and when I say welfare-style, this includes almost the ENTIRE QR train network, sans Darra-CBD section).

The money has to come from somewhere, as much as people want to moan about it, PT has improved by orders of magnitude since 2004 (busways, BUZ routes, new buses, new trains and the like). If the quality goes up, I think the price should go up too.

Money has to come from somewhere to fund all of this. Suggest a revenue source if you disagree.

[#Metro]

That said, there is a degree of self entitlement in some comments from the public, eg people who want a discount just because they are using it in the first place.

Just like asking for discount from Coles or Woolies "because I always shop there".

[dwb]

Suggest a revenue source if you disagree.

I have, numerous times, suggested that road use charges/ congestion charging/ tolling is a funding source that can't be ignored.

[ozbob]

The big problem is that the fare increases are perceived by the majority of the public as too much, too fast.  There is a looming political risk.

Contrast the improvements with V/Line.  Actually reduced fares, improved frequency and quality of the service, and patronage increases in 100s of percent.  Which actually results in improved fare box.

The current fare path has been a failure.  I see that changes as from January 2012 as a new structure, albeit incomplete ...

[#Metro]

I have, numerous times, suggested that road use charges/ congestion charging/ tolling is a funding source that can't be ignored.
   

And I would agree with you (so would the RACQ, would you believe it). Though I think that has as much chance as catching a hen and extracting its teeth (sadly).

[dwb]

I have, numerous times, suggested that road use charges/ congestion charging/ tolling is a funding source that can't be ignored.
   

And I would agree with you (so would the RACQ, would you believe it). Though I think that has as much chance as catching a hen and extracting its teeth (sadly).

I don't think that is currently RACQ's position, despite what Ken Willet may have written in a policy paper several years ago (2005) and if you do a google search on him you'll see he argued for Elleanor Schonell to be a general purpose bridge

[Gazza]

^ Lol RACQ
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-03-18/racq-says-green-bridge-not-the-answer/1818630

[SurfRail]

The RACQ is not as thick as some of the other motoring lobby groups - their recent positions indicate that they do understand that good PT and a more logical means of charging for congestion are needed.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Charter boat.... what charter boat.

[Golliwog]

^ Lol RACQ
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003-03-18/racq-says-green-bridge-not-the-answer/1818630

HAH!

[somebody]

"The bottom line is the 15% fare increase is being linked to an 0.8% ridership fall".

There you go. Now bring on the BUZ and let's see 100% increases in patronage!

As against about 7% patronage growth without the fare increases.  While the fare increases have increased the amount of fare revenue slightly, that does ignore the externality benefits of PT.

the so-called green bridge will not mean more people will choose to catch buses

Seem pretty thick to me.

Perhaps they've learnt their lesson as with the NRMA who have stopped attacking the harbour bridge bus lane.

[dwb]

"The bottom line is the 15% fare increase is being linked to an 0.8% ridership fall".

There you go. Now bring on the BUZ and let's see 100% increases in patronage!

As against about 7% patronage growth without the fare increases.  While the fare increases have increased the amount of fare revenue slightly, that does ignore the externality benefits of PT.

the so-called green bridge will not mean more people will choose to catch buses

Seem pretty thick to me.

Perhaps they've learnt their lesson as with the NRMA who have stopped attacking the harbour bridge bus lane.

Who knows/ cares... they perceive they have a role, and they need to be seen to be saying/doing the right things for their members, even if that means publicly opposing somethign they may privately agree on... the lesson from that is that the interests of lobby groups must be balanced with a strong understanding of the public interest, short and long term

[ozbob]

From the Couriermail Quest click here!

Southside commuters put off by bus fare hike

Southside commuters put off by bus fare hike

    by: Angela Ranke, Southern Star
    From: Quest Newspapers
    November 30, 2011 9:29AM

SOUTHSIDE commuters are abandoning public transport but Brisbane City Council and Translink are at loggerheads as to why.

Council figures, released to the Southern Star show bus routes from outer Brisbane suburbs like Algester, Forest Lake and Eight Mile Plains have lost up to 30 per cent of their passengers in the past four months compared to the same period last year.

Route 111 from Eight Mile Plains to Roma Street busway recorded a 21.67 per cent drop (764,054 down to 598,449), while Route 135 Algester to City express service posted a 18.65 per cent drop (165,080 down to 134,299)

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk said passengers were choosing other options because the State Government's 15 per cent annual increases in public transport fees were too high.

"In the last 12 months, we've seen Brisbane's buses go from record growth to their worst performance in over a decade and it's clear the State Government's massive fare hikes are the reason,'' he said.

However, a Translink spokesman rejected the claim and said the bus passenger numbers were declining on some routes because Translink had provided more public transport options for customers.

The spokesman said overall bus patronage in Brisbane grew by 550,000 passenger trips between March and October this year.

Some of the largest increases were on bus routes in the southern suburbs, including 186 (Wishart to CBD) which recorded a 44 per cent increase.

Cr Quirk announced a three-week $80,000 advertising blitz to draw commuters back to buses but ruled out a London-style congestion charge to discourage residents driving into the CBD.

Labor Lord Mayoral candidate Ray Smith slammed the $80,000 outlay saying the money would be better spent on services.

"A three-week advertising campaign is not going to provide higher frequency services, reduce overcrowding on key routes or make public transport any cheaper,'' he said.

"Our city needs real investment in public transport, not just a temporary ad campaign.''

[#Metro]

It looks like the picture is muddy here. If more routes were introduced and PT usage has increased then it sounds like the network is.... competing with itself??
It sounds like there has been growth, but a lot of it has come with cannibalization of existing services.

Personally I'm in the camp that suggests fewer routes, that run at higher frequency; Although it would be hard to have completely no self-competition. If a BUZ ever gets put to Bulimba and Balmoral, that will compete with ferry patronage (as well as cycling and cars) as people shift to the mode that gives them the greatest benefit.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Still think more services should be connecting with trains to encourage running a higher rail frequency/improve the rail network instead of spending money on busways and routes to make everything run to the city.

[#Metro]

Still think more services should be connecting with trains to encourage running a higher rail frequency/improve the rail network instead of spending money on busways and routes to make everything run to the city.

Which services?

Others have suggested this, but in many cases it is faster to run things down the busway than it is to connect (I think Simon pulled me up on this a while ago when debating feeding 130 BUZ into the Beenleigh Rail line).

We also have effectively no capacity on rail until CRR comes online (except for maybe the Ferny Grove and Ips lines perhaps).

[somebody]

Still think more services should be connecting with trains to encourage running a higher rail frequency/improve the rail network instead of spending money on busways and routes to make everything run to the city.

So a less attractive system for passengers still with the massive fare hikes?  Don't like that idea.

I think this quote says it:

If you charge more for a product than the market is prepared to pay, you will fail.

However, the revamp to the policy has been announced, and it will start soon.  I don't think it is productive to complain about it now, but if there are continued falls in patronage next year, that will say something.

Some of the largest increases were on bus routes in the southern suburbs, including 186 (Wishart to CBD) which recorded a 44 per cent increase.

In percentage terms?  Who cares.  Give me the increase in absolute trips please.

[Gazza]

How is running better feeder services and improving the rail frequency making it less attractive for passengers, Simon?
The way I see it, if the rail network was truly high frequency then it would be a much stronger 'spine' to design the network around, and we could indeed have it so many possible new journeys involve a change onto the rail network.

Eg most stations would have a feeder, and that would allow hundreds of possible journey combinations...Catch the first feeder, short wait, you're on the train, jump off a few stations along, get the next feeder, you're at your final destination.
What's wrong with that?

Fantasising for a minute, but imagine if Ipswich had the track capacity for a local, high frequency local rail network shuttle. Buses would all basically run north south, and would link into a rail station, it would be a clean grid, and to get into central Ipswich, you'd hop on a train with minimal wait for the east west portion of the trip.

[somebody]

How is running better feeder services and improving the rail frequency making it less attractive for passengers, Simon?

Nothing wrong with that, but breaking up (say) the 130 at either Altandi or Griffith Uni would be a deterrent to patronage.

There are numerous opportunities for cost saving within the bus network.  No need to swallow a poison pill like this.

[Gazza]

^Yeah but HTG never mentioned the 130 in his post, he just said don't make EVERYTHING run to the city.

[#Metro]

How is running better feeder services and improving the rail frequency making it less attractive for passengers, Simon?
The way I see it, if the rail network was truly high frequency then it would be a much stronger 'spine' to design the network around, and we could indeed have it so many possible new journeys involve a change onto the rail network.

Eg most stations would have a feeder, and that would allow hundreds of possible journey combinations...Catch the first feeder, short wait, you're on the train, jump off a few stations along, get the next feeder, you're at your final destination.
What's wrong with that?

Fantasising for a minute, but imagine if Ipswich had the track capacity for a local, high frequency local rail network shuttle. Buses would all basically run north south, and would link into a rail station, it would be a clean grid, and to get into central Ipswich, you'd hop on a train with minimal wait for the east west portion of the trip.
   

I'm going to side with Simon here. In general this would be good, but during peak hour, 130 is faster via the busway. It might also be less stops too.
The rail network capacity during peak hour is limiting here on most parts of the network IMHO. Maybe not for Ipswich line though, maybe they could fit a few more services there?

Toronto is based on the feeder-transfer principle. Something like 98% of buses dump passengers into the subway system which consists of just two lines. (Yonge University Spadina, Bloor-Danforth, the RT* and Sheppard Subway*). Services run every 5-6 minutes all day until 1am, even on weekends. Services run 2-3 minutes in peak hour.

* These services feed pax into the YUS and BD lines

[#Metro]

http://melbourneurbanist.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/how-do-world-transit-systems-compare/

[HappyTrainGuy]

Haha, never mentioned the 130 Simon There are routes that are an exception considering they built the busways/already have a high uptake in areas but its currently an unattractive system becuase someone in the government keeps having ideas that buses are the same as trains and keep building busways to run everything to the city. It's only faster to run direct to the city courtsey of the massive busways their building. It's like what Gazza said. Having more services connecting to the spine of the network. That's why I like the Chermside Community bus so much (336/337). It zigzags through multiple suburbs in and around places, provides a feeder service to Aspley/Chermside bus interchanges/shopping centres, services Geebung Railway station and goes past about 5 schools. Only problem with it is that it has a worse frequency than the Nambour line with 5 daily services in each direction and its run minutes before city bound routes that operate on hourly frequencies. Stop building busways and start throwing money at railway infrastructure/realignments/shuttle lines. Knock out projects like Zillmere-Carseldine, Kuraby-Trinder Park, Woodridge-Kingston, Bethina-Beenleigh, and so on realignments to straighten the lines for a higher constant speed. Get more rollingstock. Get Wulkura into gear. Duplicate/trip/quad sections. Ramp up the frequency. Get Translink out of the QR cookie jar. Far more effective to have more buses feeding into rail lines than having more and more bus/buz routes poping up running direct to the city.

Taken in October. Nothing like being driven in my own private bus at 6pm at night while overtaking loaded 330/333s at the same time.

[somebody]

Some of the largest increases were on bus routes in the southern suburbs, including 186 (Wishart to CBD) which recorded a 44 per cent increase.

This route has roughly had its frequency doubled on 24 Jan 2011.  Increased by 10 daily trips (reportedly) to 19 daily trips.

It's a bit rude to suggest that this is a rebuttal of the fare rises are reducing patronage argument.

[#Metro]

Haha, never mentioned the 130 Simon Wink There are routes that are an exception considering they built the busways/already have a high uptake in areas but its currently an unattractive system becuase someone in the government keeps having ideas that buses are the same as trains and keep building busways to run everything to the city.

The busway is quite good, and reaches somwhere like 20 000 pphd in peak hour (when you add CC Bridge + Mater Hill bound) buses. Let's assume that was heavy rail for a moment-- you would have to dump 20 000 pphd into the Beenleigh/Gold Coast line. Impossible, unless it was a subway!

It's only faster to run direct to the city courtsey of the massive busways their building. It's like what Gazza said. Having more services connecting to the spine of the network. That's why I like the Chermside Community bus so much (336/337). It zigzags through multiple suburbs in and around places, provides a feeder service to Aspley/Chermside bus interchanges/shopping centres, services Geebung Railway station and goes past about 5 schools.

The rail capacity is limiting in many, but not all, cases IMHO.

Only problem with it is that it has a worse frequency than the Nambour line

QUOTE OF THE WEEK!!!  

with 5 daily services in each direction and its run minutes before city bound routes that operate on hourly frequencies. Stop building busways and start throwing money at railway infrastructure/realignments/shuttle lines. Knock out projects like Zillmere-Carseldine, Kuraby-Trinder Park, Woodridge-Kingston, Bethina-Beenleigh, and so on realignments to straighten the lines for a higher constant speed. Get more rollingstock. Get Wulkura into gear. Duplicate/trip/quad sections. Ramp up the frequency. Get Translink out of the QR cookie jar. Far more effective to have more buses feeding into rail lines than having more and more bus/buz routes poping up running direct to the city.

It looks like Core Frequent Network (Bus) will be done before Core Frequent Network (Rail), frequency on rail MUST be increased.

Taken in October. Nothing like being driven in my own private bus at 6pm at night while overtaking loaded 330/333s at the same time.

One of the problems with the direct service philosophy. The passenger load is 'lumpy'. Interchange would expel air from the system.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Gotta love route 77 (From the pic it was like that most of the way from 8MP-Chermside. Over the entire journey there was maybe about 10 people including myself that got on and off).

Nambour operates ~90 mins (not including the rubber trains) while the 336/337 operates every 90-120mins

[somebody]

Haha, never mentioned the 130 Simon

True, but I'm not sure where we should have an interchange system but don't.  For a few infrequent services like the 435, I can accept the interchange argument, but in the main, I don't see it.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Start off small then just go to the bus network with a chainsaw. Put more oomph into making interchanges to get everyone out of that I only want one bus everywhere sync. Start terminating routes like 335 at Chermside. Get rid of route 77. Routes that start doubling up on services/following train lines can be culled at interchanges/busway stations/merged (111/333-170/171/174/175). When Kippa Ring goes up bring out the chainsaw and go to work. Have Redcliffe/Clontarf/Scarborough Deception Bay/North Lakes buses feed into the Kippa Ring railway line. Have Deagon/Sandgate/Brighton/Shorncliffe feed into the Shorncliffe Railway line with a bus linking the two areas via Hornibrookhoughtontedsmoutmemorialwhateveritsnameisnowhighway bridge. More buses linking Zillmere/Carseldine to North/Boondal statons to be eventually combined with trouts road. Have Bracken Ridge feed into Bald Hills. When CCR goes up bring out the saw again. Then again when trouts road goes up feed Aspley/Bridgeman Downs into it. Try to feed as many services into the Ferny Grove line. Acacia Ridge can link into the railway line nearby. Same with running services between 8MP and the Beenleigh line at Runcorn/Altandi/Fruitgrove (Maybe make Altandi a Gold Coast stop to increase capacity). Feed Underwood/Springwood/Rochdale into the railway line. Try to have the focus of buses serving to main interchanges where they can jump onto an express/high frequency service. All of which has to be done along with upgrading the rail line accordingly which is why I expect to see a double decker maglev busway going to Indooroopilly