New fare strategy - articles and discussion

[colinw]

What you say is the reality, but for the 90% who sit in their cars the perception is very different. From talking to people I know, trains are perceived as slow, irritating and clunky. Buses are perceived as "just another vehicle mixing it with the traffic, so may as well be in my own personal space in the car".

[HappyTrainGuy]

Hey, there's nothing wrong with listening to Led Zepplin 

[somebody]

colinw raises a good point.

Even ozbob's defence of rail is confined to peak hour, peak direction on the Ipswich line.

Translink's comments infer that off peak has reduced more than peak, in spite of the increase of the off peak discount to 15%.

I see a good angle for raising the slow down.

[ozbob]

Yes,  but the off peak market is not as time sensitive as the peak market in terms of actual timetable.  The off peak frequency is the real turn off, with the commensurate hassles with bus connections, these are far important as it can mean extra hours for journeys, a few minutes dwell is largely irrelevant, but the rail timetable slow down is important in the big picture.

[ozbob]

Hey, there's nothing wrong with listening to Led Zepplin  

Not at all ... it is the ones blaring that have me intrigued ... maybe it is a deep seated escape thought ...

[somebody]

Yes,  but the off peak market is not as time sensitive as the peak market in terms of actual timetable.  The off peak frequency is the real turn off, with the commensurate hassles with bus connections, these are far important as it can mean extra hours for journeys, a few minutes dwell is largely irrelevant, but the rail timetable slow down is important in the big picture.

I'll concede that the off peak market is less time sensitive.  However, I disagree with the rest of what you are saying.  Road doesn't provide competitive journey times with rail in the peak, but off peak rail has an out of the ball park journey time compared to road to Ipswich.  Doing something about this is a priority, and easily achievable for QR.

[colinw]

Time to throw in TramTrain's excellent link, posted in another thread:

http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=7082.msg75620#new

[ozbob]

Yes,  but the off peak market is not as time sensitive as the peak market in terms of actual timetable.  The off peak frequency is the real turn off, with the commensurate hassles with bus connections, these are far important as it can mean extra hours for journeys, a few minutes dwell is largely irrelevant, but the rail timetable slow down is important in the big picture.

I'll concede that the off peak market is less time sensitive.  However, I disagree with the rest of what you are saying.  Road doesn't provide competitive journey times with rail in the peak, but off peak rail has an out of the ball park journey time compared to road to Ipswich.  Doing something about this is a priority, and easily achievable for QR.

I regularly talk to fellow passengers on off peak services.  Their overwhelming concern is the poor frequency and bus connections or non connections.  The actual travel time once on board is not a real big issue for them.

[Cam]

I'd imagine that the Ipswich/Springfield line has not dropped by 16% as service has expanded.

That's a reasonable assumption to make. So if patronage on the Ipswich Line has dropped by less than 16% or even increased slightly then there must be 20%+ drops on other lines to reach the figure of a 16% drop in rail patronage across SE Qld.

I'd love to see a breakdown of the figures.

[#Metro]

I'll concede that the off peak market is less time sensitive.  However, I disagree with the rest of what you are saying.  Road doesn't provide competitive journey times with rail in the peak, but off peak rail has an out of the ball park journey time compared to road to Ipswich.  Doing something about this is a priority, and easily achievable for QR.

The frequency of the trains being low translates into a greatly increased waiting time plus then you have to actually ride the thing so you end up having to endure 30 minute wait + however long the train takes to get you to where you want to go.

[#Metro]

I regularly talk to fellow passengers on off peak services.  Their overwhelming concern is the poor frequency and bus connections or non connections.  The actual travel time once on board is not a real big issue for them.

Plan A That idea of 4 trains/hour to Richlands + 2 trains/hour to Ipswich express looks like a good idea.
Plan B The alternative is That idea of 2 trains/hour to Richlands + 4 trains/hour to Ipswich express

Are either of these possible of the current system?

[ozbob]

I'll concede that the off peak market is less time sensitive.  However, I disagree with the rest of what you are saying.  Road doesn't provide competitive journey times with rail in the peak, but off peak rail has an out of the ball park journey time compared to road to Ipswich.  Doing something about this is a priority, and easily achievable for QR.

The frequency of the trains being low translates into a greatly increased waiting time plus then you have to actually ride the thing so you end up having to endure 30 minute wait + however long the train takes to get you to where you want to go.

Indeed, and this is why out of peak the real concerns are with the low frequency, which further complicates bus/rail connections.  Honestly, we are talking hours of extra journey time here, do you really think that they care too much for 4 minutes of padding?  No they don't,  what they would like is improved frequency to make public transport easier to access.

There is nothing stopping 15 minute frequency to Ipswich other than funds.  Plenty of capacity to run freight, coal and passenger.  I saw an empty coalie the other day in the outbound peak!

[Cam]

I regularly talk to fellow passengers on off peak services.  Their overwhelming concern is the poor frequency and bus connections or non connections.  The actual travel time once on board is not a real big issue for them.

If travel time is important to an off peak commuter from Ipswich to Brisbane & they have access to a vehicle, they wouldn't be on an off peak train to talk to.

Most rail users would agree that there needs to be a significant increase in the frequency of off peak rail services. I think that this needs to be made an election issue. If neither the ALP or the LNP are promising off peak rail improvements in the lead up to an election then we are years away from seeing such improvements.

[ozbob]

I regularly talk to fellow passengers on off peak services.  Their overwhelming concern is the poor frequency and bus connections or non connections.  The actual travel time once on board is not a real big issue for them.

If travel time is important to an off peak commuter from Ipswich to Brisbane & they have access to a vehicle, they wouldn't be on an off peak train to talk to.

Most rail users would agree that there needs to be a significant increase in the frequency of off peak rail services. I think that this needs to be made an election issue. If neither the ALP or the LNP are promising off peak rail improvements in the lead up to an election then we are years away from seeing such improvements.

They don't have cars, or choose not to use them. That is why they are on the train.  Simply stating, the main concerns are with the low frequency and poor bus connections.  The actual travel time once on board is not the critical issue for these people, it is actually getting on board and back home without excessive waits.   Time and time again I see missed bus/rail connections.  Which can mean waits up to near an hour or even longer.  So what should be a journey time say of 1 hour 10 minutes becomes 2 hour 10 minutes. 

Some of our members have to factor in an extra 2 hours to ensure they make medical appointments. 

[Cam]

Plan A That idea of 4 trains/hour to Richlands + 2 trains/hour to Ipswich express looks like a good idea.
Plan B The alternative is That idea of 2 trains/hour to Richlands + 4 trains/hour to Ipswich express

Your Plan B would mean halving the recent improvement in off peak frequency for most stations between Darra & the CBD so I can't see this being implemented.

What about plan C: 4 trains/hour to Richlands + 4 trains/hour to Ipswich express? Unfortunately, I think that we are the best part of a decade away from such a service though.

Should we be pushing for Plan A in the interim?

[HappyTrainGuy]

Funds and rollingstock (positioning before/after peak) along with the upcoming rail extensions would be the biggest hurdle. Unless they adopt the splitting/merging of 6 car services but thats not ideal leading up to the arvo peak considering that they've only really done that on the Doomben and sometimes the Nambour lines along with a portion of the EMU fleet being single ended.

[ozbob]

Yes, which is one reason 3 TPH to Richlands, 3 TPH Ipswich is far more likely as a transition IMHO.  All the Ipswich trains run express - Darra <-> CBD <-> Petrie -> CAB.

Richlands <-> Petrie.

The only down side is a decrease in off peak frequency from 15 minutes to 20 minutes for a handful of stations.   But look at the massive benefits overall.  Indooroopilly will have trains every 10 minutes out of peak (bus feeding?)

4 ph to Richlands, 2 ph to Ipswich, does nothing to sort out frequency on the Ipswich line west of Darra.  Three expresses is far better than two, and unless compromises are made 2 all stoppers per hour is all the punters will get.

[Cam]

Some of our members have to factor in an extra 2 hours to ensure they make medical appointments. 

That's more than enough reason for most to use a vehicle if they have access to one. Off peak rail frequency needs to be more competitive with car usage through a higher frequency of services & bus connections. Off peak rail usage shouldn't be a last resort as it appears to be for most off peak users in SE QLD.

I'm hoping that the offer of free travel after 9/10 journeys in a week leads to siginficant increases in off peak patronage next year. This should necessitate improvements in off peak rail services sooner rather than later.

I'm warming to the idea of 3 TPH to Richlands, 3 TPH Ipswich (express) as a transition to 4 TPH to Richlands, 4 TPH Ipswich (express).

[ozbob]

4 TPH to Richlands, 4 TPH Ipswich (express)

That is the target, sometimes it takes incremental steps ...

[O_128]

Some of our members have to factor in an extra 2 hours to ensure they make medical appointments. 

That's more than enough reason for most to use a vehicle if they have access to one. Off peak rail frequency needs to be more competitive with car usage through a higher frequency of services & bus connections. Off peak rail usage shouldn't be a last resort as it appears to be for most off peak users in SE QLD.

I'm hoping that the offer of free travel after 9/10 journeys in a week leads to siginficant increases in off peak patronage next year. This should necessitate improvements in off peak rail services sooner rather than later.

I'm warming to the idea of 3 TPH to Richlands, 3 TPH Ipswich (express) as a transition to 4 TPH to Richlands, 4 TPH Ipswich (express).

Why bother, we all know there will be ZERO  off peak rail improvements until 2020 at the earliest

[Gazza]

Couple of points.

20 min frequency to Ips implies 3 feeder buses per hour, which needs to be factored into costs.

Supporting a frequency drop at Oxley etc is a hard sell, even moreso for people at Corinda who have had it for years... It would be like making every buz 20 min frequency and donating the 4th bus to all the half hourly routes. Has benefits to the people on the half hourly route for sure, but influcts pain on everyone else.

[somebody]

Funds and rollingstock (positioning before/after peak) along with the upcoming rail extensions would be the biggest hurdle. Unless they adopt the splitting/merging of 6 car services but thats not ideal leading up to the arvo peak considering that they've only really done that on the Doomben and sometimes the Nambour lines along with a portion of the EMU fleet being single ended.

Where is the saving in splitting rolling stock into 3 car services?  I can see it on the Shorncliffe line due to crewing issues, but otherwise I expect the labour cost of doing the divide outweighs any benefits.

Plan A That idea of 4 trains/hour to Richlands + 2 trains/hour to Ipswich express looks like a good idea.
Plan B The alternative is That idea of 2 trains/hour to Richlands + 4 trains/hour to Ipswich express

Your Plan B would mean halving the recent improvement in off peak frequency for most stations between Darra & the CBD so I can't see this being implemented.

What about plan C: 4 trains/hour to Richlands + 4 trains/hour to Ipswich express? Unfortunately, I think that we are the best part of a decade away from such a service though.

Should we be pushing for Plan A in the interim?

Absolutely we should be pushing for Plan A.  Plan C is step beyond that which I think is unlikely at present.

There is nothing stopping 15 minute frequency to Ipswich other than funds.  Plenty of capacity to run freight, coal and passenger.  I saw an empty coalie the other day in the outbound peak!

I'd love to see QR say that.  Getting a freight from Normanby to Milton with 8/hour same direction trains and conflicting with 8/hour counter trains wouldn't be that easy IMO.

I regularly talk to fellow passengers on off peak services.  Their overwhelming concern is the poor frequency and bus connections or non connections.  The actual travel time once on board is not a real big issue for them.

If travel time is important to an off peak commuter from Ipswich to Brisbane & they have access to a vehicle, they wouldn't be on an off peak train to talk to.

Most rail users would agree that there needs to be a significant increase in the frequency of off peak rail services. I think that this needs to be made an election issue. If neither the ALP or the LNP are promising off peak rail improvements in the lead up to an election then we are years away from seeing such improvements.

They don't have cars, or choose not to use them. That is why they are on the train.  Simply stating, the main concerns are with the low frequency and poor bus connections.  The actual travel time once on board is not the critical issue for these people, it is actually getting on board and back home without excessive waits.   Time and time again I see missed bus/rail connections.  Which can mean waits up to near an hour or even longer.  So what should be a journey time say of 1 hour 10 minutes becomes 2 hour 10 minutes.  

Some of our members have to factor in an extra 2 hours to ensure they make medical appointments.  

No issue with RAILBoT campaigning for improved connections, not that it would make a difference if I did have an issue.

However, I do think RAILBoT needs to campaign for things which will increase the utilisation of PT.  People perceive off peak rail services as a waste of the public money.  This perception needs to change if we want to succeed.  Saving a few minutes will help a little.  Saving a number of minutes by offering express patterns as well will be just as effective as increasing frequency on existing patterns.  People love the express!

I'm sorry, but I feel very strongly that it is a major ongoing failing of RAILBoT in failing to highlight the failings of the new timetable regarding slowing down services with sufficient strength.

Equally, saying publicly that we can accept a reduction in frequency for Chelmer-Oxley+T+A reduces our credibility IMO.

[#Metro]

Time and time again I see missed bus/rail connections.  Which can mean waits up to near an hour or even longer.  So what should be a journey time say of 1 hour 10 minutes becomes 2 hour 10 minutes. 

Some of our members have to factor in an extra 2 hours to ensure they make medical appointments.

And that variability is a killer. You go to the train station and your journey could be + or - 30 minutes to one hour! Good grief!!!

I'm with simon on this one, plan A isn't my idea- someone else thought of it on this forum, but I think it is even frequency and achievable.

[ozbob]

I'm sorry, but I feel very strongly that it is a major ongoing failing of RAILBoT in failing to highlight the failings of the new timetable regarding slowing down services with sufficient strength.

Rubbish, been raised directly with Queensland Rail a number of times now, and publicly.  You will have your opportunity in  a couple of weeks next week.  And was also raised at the Ipswich CRG if I recall as well.

[ozbob]

Equally, saying publicly that we can accept a reduction in frequency for Chelmer-Oxley+T+A reduces our credibility IMO

15 to 20 minutes is not a real major issue.  What is, is the rest of the network languishing on 30 minutes or worse.

Get real people, 15 minutes to everywhere is a pipe dream. Some compromise is going to be needed.

[ozbob]

Couple of points.

20 min frequency to Ips implies 3 feeder buses per hour, which needs to be factored into costs.

Supporting a frequency drop at Oxley etc is a hard sell, even moreso for people at Corinda who have had it for years... It would be like making every buz 20 min frequency and donating the 4th bus to all the half hourly routes. Has benefits to the people on the half hourly route for sure, but influcts pain on everyone else.

All stations from Caboolture to Ipswich benefit.  Slight reduction in frequency for Oxley, Corinda, Sherwood, Graceville, Chelmer, Taringa, Auchenflower (6).  I would include Toowong and Milton both in the express off peak pattern (there is enough fat to do that now).

Stations that would benefit with a significant increase in frequency number around 34.  

Yes, lets keep the straight jacket on folks ... LOL

Time some of you swallowed a reality pill ...

[ozbob]

Code Select Expand

20 min frequency to Ips implies 3 feeder buses per hour, which needs to be factored into costs.

That's the general idea I would have thought, but the best we would get would probably be 1 hour to 40 minutes I guess.

[somebody]

I'm sorry, but I feel very strongly that it is a major ongoing failing of RAILBoT in failing to highlight the failings of the new timetable regarding slowing down services with sufficient strength.

Rubbish, been raised directly with Queensland Rail a number of times now, and publicly.  You will have your opportunity in  a couple of weeks.  And was also raised at the Ipswich CRG if I recall as well.

I take it you are referring to these releases:
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6830.0
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6758.0

I hope not these ones:
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6208.0
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6731.0
Which do not mention the slow down.

But how many releases and radio interviews etc were done for the fare structure?  

[colinw]

Time some of you swallowed a reality pill ...

Oops, forgot we are in Queensland for a moment there ...

Must ask those good folks in Perth how they manage to do it with the same trains as us, and far less track (only Perth to Claisebrook is quad). Obviously QLD's "impossible" is everyone else's "every day service standard".

[ozbob]

I'm sorry, but I feel very strongly that it is a major ongoing failing of RAILBoT in failing to highlight the failings of the new timetable regarding slowing down services with sufficient strength.

Rubbish, been raised directly with Queensland Rail a number of times now, and publicly.  You will have your opportunity in  a couple of weeks.  And was also raised at the Ipswich CRG if I recall as well.

I take it you are referring to these releases:
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6830.0
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6758.0

I hope not these ones:
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6208.0
http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=6731.0
Which do not mention the slow down.

But how many releases and radio interviews etc were done for the fare structure?  

Who knows.  The fat issue is far more recent, the fare structure has been around for years.

And by the way, the media choose the topic.  They get their own feedback and seek out responses.

It has been raised directly and publicly, and as I said you will have your opportunity next week as well. 

Media releases are not encyclopaedias.   

Why don't you write a letter to the editor of CM or local paper re timetable dwell times?  That would be useful in helping to promote the issue.  Doing constructive things is the way forward.

I have done a lot in trying to raise the issue.  If the media don't respond, they don't respond. 

[ozbob]

Time some of you swallowed a reality pill ...

Oops, forgot we are in Queensland for a moment there ...

Must ask those good folks in Perth how they manage to do it with the same trains as us, and far less track (only Perth to Claisebrook is quad). Obviously QLD's "impossible" is everyone else's "every day service standard".

The reality here is a lack of committment to increased frequency, code for funding of services.  Are rail services too expensive in south-east Queensland compared to Perth?  What are the variables?  I am sure HTG will list a million reasons why it won't happen (15 minutes to everywhere).   My own view is that 15 minutes is achievable to Ipswich now, particularly with another train stabling facility at Redbank.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Simon, the splitting was in reference to rollingstock positioning with the upcoming rail line extensions, timetable changes and new lines. With the fleet already running above 90% something has to give.

[somebody]

The reality here is a lack of committment to increased frequency, code for funding of services.  Are rail services too expensive in south-east Queensland compared to Perth?  What are the variables?  I am sure HTG will list a million reasons why it won't happen (15 minutes to everywhere).   My own view is that 15 minutes is achievable to Ipswich now, particularly with another train stabling facility at Redbank.

I think the major impediment for 15 minute frequency to Ipswich (besides will) is the Normanby->Milton move.  Unless you are thinking of 2tph All to Richlands+2tph All to Ipswich+2tph express to Ipswich.

Why don't you write a letter to the editor of CM or local paper re timetable dwell times?  That would be useful in helping to promote the issue.  Doing constructive things is the way forward.

Good suggestion here.

Who knows.  The fat issue is far more recent, the fare structure has been around for years.

It's now around a year ago since the draft timetable was released.  I'd call the fat issue a year old.  Perhaps the fare structure is closer to four to five years old.

Simon, the splitting was in reference to rollingstock positioning with the upcoming rail line extensions, timetable changes and new lines. With the fleet already running above 90% something has to give.

Ah Ok.  I thought you meant splitting between the peaks or something.

[#Metro]

Do we need more trains bought? What happened to all the trains we see plastered in ads over the doors of trains

[ozbob]

I was just making the point that I think there is no real impediment in terms of train paths etc for 15 minute frequency on the Ipswich line itself

Will it happen, probably not.  Always complications in Queensland.

[colinw]

Wouldn't want to eat into potential coal train paths either!

[somebody]

Wouldn't want to eat into potential coal train paths either!

Coal would go via Tennyson so not an issue with that.

Perhaps I'm responding with too much seriousness.

[HappyTrainGuy]

The range somewhat dictates what times freighters are run into and out of the BSA. Similar to the NCL but out to the west instead of the north.  

[colinw]

Wouldn't want to eat into potential coal train paths either!

Coal would go via Tennyson so not an issue with that.

Perhaps I'm responding with too much seriousness.

Still an issue there, due to the flat junctions at Corinda and the inherent conflict between freight services from the west going via Tennyson and trains on the suburbans.  Plus, as HTG points out, the timing of freights into Brisbane is somewhat constrained by operational concerns further out, so if that coal path happens to conflict with your 4TPH Ipswich service then tough!

[somebody]

Wouldn't want to eat into potential coal train paths either!

Coal would go via Tennyson so not an issue with that.

Perhaps I'm responding with too much seriousness.

Still an issue there, due to the flat junctions at Corinda and the inherent conflict between freight services from the west going via Tennyson and trains on the suburbans.  Plus, as HTG points out, the timing of freights into Brisbane is somewhat constrained by operational concerns further out, so if that coal path happens to conflict with your 4TPH Ipswich service then tough!

Corinda isn't an issue if the freight track is used from Darra.  I wonder if the down freight can clear the up Ipswich line west of Darra before it fouls the Richlands line, assuming that the fly-under is used?  I for one am perfectly happy for coal trains to be delayed by up to 15 minutes at a number of points on the run to allow passenger trains to get a free run.