New fare strategy - articles and discussion

[dwb]

AFAIK go card does it from tag off to tag on, not tag on to tag on.... so journey time is not counted. That makes it possibly a bigger window that many other jurisdictions.

[somebody]

That's the way it worked for paper tickets.  I don't see a reason to go back to that.

Yes, not necessarily but interesting how other jurisdictions do it.

I see nothing wrong with having different time limits for different zones.  Eg.  keep exiting transfer time limits for transfers within zones 1 to 4, and increase transfer times for transfers from zone 4 to higher zones and within higher zones, say 90 minutes.

That's not a bad idea, except that places like Indooroopilly, Mt Gravatt, Chermside and Carindale see their fair share of hourly routes.  I'd be inclined to make it across the network.

[Gazza]

This is overthinking the problem.
The issue isn't the transfer window, its having a network so infrequent that this can occur.

[ozbob]

This is overthinking the problem.
The issue isn't the transfer window, its having a network so infrequent that this can occur.

Yes I agree Gazza, but looks like it might be 2041 before there is frequency ...

[somebody]

This is overthinking the problem.
The issue isn't the transfer window, its having a network so infrequent that this can occur.

I differ.  There will always be a need for less frequent, less direct routes.  Call them service obligation routes if you like.  It's hard to imagine many of these rising above hourly frequency.

[Gazza]

And an hourly frequency route, running in low density areas with limited passengers, is going to have major issues running on time?

[somebody]

And an hourly frequency route, running in low density areas with limited passengers, is going to have major issues running on time?

Happens now, and it's not impossible in the future.

[dwb]

And an hourly frequency route, running in low density areas with limited passengers, is going to have major issues running on time?

Happens now, and it's not impossible in the future.

Even with two hourly routes, you'd have to have them lined up at the most awkward time AND have one of them late and the other early to actually exceed the hour transfer window. So it is only going to be a small percentage of a small percentage, so I think it is time people on here started to think more strategically.

[Fares_Fair]

And an hourly frequency route, running in low density areas with limited passengers, is going to have major issues running on time?

Happens now, and it's not impossible in the future.

Even with two hourly routes, you'd have to have them lined up at the most awkward time AND have one of them late and the other early to actually exceed the hour transfer window. So it is only going to be a small percentage of a small percentage, so I think it is time people on here started to think more strategically.

It's time the State Government started to think more strategically.

Regards,
Fares_Fair.

[somebody]

And an hourly frequency route, running in low density areas with limited passengers, is going to have major issues running on time?

Happens now, and it's not impossible in the future.

Even with two hourly routes, you'd have to have them lined up at the most awkward time AND have one of them late and the other early to actually exceed the hour transfer window. So it is only going to be a small percentage of a small percentage, so I think it is time people on here started to think more strategically.

No, only the second leg (or later leg) of a journey needs to be hourly to have a potential problem when there is late running.

[ozbob]

Brisbane City Council Cr Adrian Schrinner click here!

State fare hikes cause public transport slump

Posted on Friday, 30 September, 2011

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk has renewed his calls for public transport price increases to be capped after the State Government today admitted its double-digit fare hikes contributed to a slump in passenger numbers.

Since August the Lord Mayor has warned the State Government on at least four occasions that their decision to increase fares by up to 63 per cent since 2009 was driving people away from public transport, particularly after the city's buses and ferries recorded some of their worst growth in almost 10 years.

This was today confirmed by State Government figures showing steep drops in public transport growth in the last 12 months, particularly in the April-June quarter, which was not impacted by the January floods.

A spokesperson for the State Government's public transport arm Translink this morning admitted to 612 ABC that the fare hikes had played a factor.

Lord Mayor Graham Quirk said the State Transport Minister needed to start working with Council and other stakeholders to find solutions.

"For nearly two months now I've been calling on the Transport Minister to cap their planned double-digit fare increases to the CPI or at least bring back the daily travel ticket to try and halt this slide," he said.

"Brisbane had seen unprecedented growth in public transport use for almost 10 years on the back of this administration's record investment in new ferries and buses until the State Government decided to jack up fares and cut ticket options, so I think it's pretty clear where the problem lies.

"Public transport should be treated as a public service and using it as a way to raise money to pay down general debt will only force more people back into their cars.

An annual Council-commissioned survey of ferry users in May 2011 found that just 47 per cent rated fare prices as reasonable, despite 87 per cent rating their overall satisfaction with the ferry service as 'very good'.

As a result, pricing was the number one way people suggested ferry services could be improved, with ticketing options number three on the list.

Since 2009 the State Government has increased public transport fares by 63 per cent for a one zone paper ticket and 10 per cent for go cards, with prices to grow a further 15 per cent every year until 2014. The State has also cancelled the daily travel ticket, with paper tickets to be scrapped next year.

Last month Lord Mayor Graham Quirk revealed that bus patronage grew just 2 per cent in 2010-11 – the first time it had fallen below 6 per cent since 2003/04 when Labor where last in power at Council level. This was immediately followed by a fall in bus patronage in the first month of the new financial year.

It was also revealed that ferry patronage would not have grown in 2010/11 even if the January floods had not occurred.                                                                     

[SurfRail]

The State has also cancelled the daily travel ticket, with paper tickets to be scrapped next year.

:conf

[ozbob]

Yes, it is an interesting line is it not?  Either a jumble or some advanced knowledge leaked ...

[Stillwater]

This story is from the ABC newssite.  It seems the 15 percent annual fare hike is 'predetermined' and will continue:

Translink defends rising fares

by Andree Withey
Updated September 29, 2011 10:16:00

Public transport costs are set to continue climbing across south-east Queensland despite a drop in patronage last financial year.  Translink says 3 million fewer train and ferry trips were made, with the January floods mainly to blame.  The Queensland Opposition says the dramatic drop has more to do fare hikes.  However, Translink spokesman Matt Longland says the fare increases are predetermined.
"That was published in 2009 - it was a five-year fare pass strategy - looking right across the network fares, and also the sustainable funding and the funding committment from Government in terms of operating the network and growing the network around south-east Queensland," he said.  "We're committed to delivering on the fare pass strategy."

[Stillwater]

Here's the communications strategy.  And we now know where the 'world class' references come from -- this was part of the strategy.  Translink set out to tell us they had a 'world class' transport and ticketing system.  It is a title not earned by merit, but is an 'image thing' promoted by a PR guru.  The plan seems to be to say it often enough and people will believe you.

http://translink.com.au/resources/about-translink/reporting-and-publications/right-to-information/D102575-draft-communication-strategy.pdf

[somebody]

The State has also cancelled the daily travel ticket, with paper tickets to be scrapped next year.

:conf

It remains unclear about the alleged Go Card lite tickets.  I personally don't see the point in rejigging so much of the system to cater for a different type of single use ticket to present.  It's got to have a negative ROI by the time you fit nearly every bus and train station.

[Gazza]

.  I personally don't see the point in rejigging so much of the system to cater for a different type of single use ticket to present.

Hence me advocating just refitting machines to sell go cards (Which is something it should be able to do more more widely anyway, rather than just on Busways), at $1-$2 each.

[somebody]

Even under current rules, and assuming you forfeit the $5 refundable deposit, it is cheaper to buy a Go Card for a single 16 zone peak trip or a 12 zone off peak trip.

I don't know why the take up isn't even higher actually.

[Gazza]

True, but I see no reason why they should be profiting off the ticketing media anyway.

Obviously people are sooks and dont want to pay the $5, so I think the easiest option for infrequent users is to move the price down to a 'laughably' low level so the reason to complain for the sake of it isn't there.

I mean, I can think of a few things that cost $1-$2 and only get a single use, so I doubt an infrequent user or tourist would complain about a once off $1-$2 payment.

[somebody]

True, but I see no reason why they should be profiting off the ticketing media anyway.

Obviously people are sooks and dont want to pay the $5, so I think the easiest option for infrequent users is to move the price down to a 'laughably' low level so the reason to complain for the sake of it isn't there.

I mean, I can think of a few things that cost $1-$2 and only get a single use, so I doubt an infrequent user or tourist would complain about a once off $1-$2 payment.

I still favour the strategy of increasing the price penalty for using paper, and making it easier to get a refund.  It's not like in jurisdictions where you need to have a photo ID for a permanent transit card.  Go Cards can be had so easily.

[Golliwog]

I still favour the strategy of increasing the price penalty for using paper, and making it easier to get a refund.  It's not like in jurisdictions where you need to have a photo ID for a permanent transit card.  Go Cards can be had so easily.

Yes they can, but theres no reason to further increase the disparity between paper and gocard prices. Just lower the initial fee. Theres always going to be someone who has a legitimate (or semi legitimate) reason for using a paper ticket over getting another go card.

[somebody]

I still favour the strategy of increasing the price penalty for using paper, and making it easier to get a refund.  It's not like in jurisdictions where you need to have a photo ID for a permanent transit card.  Go Cards can be had so easily.

Yes they can, but theres no reason to further increase the disparity between paper and gocard prices. Just lower the initial fee. Theres always going to be someone who has a legitimate (or semi legitimate) reason for using a paper ticket over getting another go card.

They've already lowered it from $10 to $5.  How much lower do you want it to be?

And it's not a fee, it's a refundable deposit.

As for the reason, to stop people from continuing to use paper!  It's annoying they way it slows things down.

[Golliwog]

I know its not a fee, but if you're trying to convince people to get a go card and keep it, then it is in effect a fee as you won't be returning the card. Lowering it to $1-2 would be good.

I don't suggest people always using paper is the way to do it. That's ridiculous in this day and age. But what about those who leave their card at home? Should they be forced to get a whole new card for a round trip before they return the second card once they've got the second card? There are a number of such scenarios where a person may already have a go card, but are unable to use it. Or don't have the correct change to top up using a fare machine (IIRC they only accept top ups of $5, $10, $20 ,....) but have in coins for the paper ticket fare. Or should these people be refused access to the PT system? Yes its those peoples fault for being in that situation, but the system should be forgiving.

[STB]

I always keep a secondary Adult card in my wallet in case I forget my primary Go Card.  There's only a few dollars on it, enough to get me to and from the city and it's obviously unregistered.

[somebody]

At present people that leave their go card at home are financially better off to by a Go Card and get a refund.  I guess there isn't a high take up of that due to inconvenience.  Besides, that's got to be 0.01% of trips.  Leaving your go card at home when going out on PT is like leaving your keys at home.  You'll find out about it pretty quick when you reach the train station or bus.

Lowering it to $2 would give too much incentive to throw away go cards with less than -$2 on them IMO.

No need to mess with the system, the system's great IMO.  The only issue is refunds for tourists, and the readers in weather exposed locations.

[Golliwog]

True, it would only be a very small number of trips that would be impacted by such situations, but its also those situations people remember most, and use to judge whether they use it again. Do you remember more clearly the majority of times your bus/train got you where you were going on time, or the small number of times when there was a delay? And yes, you would find out about it when you reach the station or bus, but that usually isn't right next to your house where you more than likely would have left your card, unlike leaving car keys at home where your car is either in the garage or right out the front.

Though I do kind of concede the point about -$2 balances, but I can't see people doing that that often. Getting a new go card isn't hard but it's not something you'd want to be doing once a week. Though it poses the question, does doing that count as fare evasion, and could you get fined for doing so?

But yes, the system is great and if they didn't make changes except to sort out those 2 issues (tourists and readers in the rain) then I would still be more than happy. I just see this as a way to encourage uptake.

[HappyTrainGuy]

If anything I want to know if anyone is buying gocards with a few bucks of credit and then binning them at the end of long trips with incurred debt as it would work out cheaper. I wonder if anyone is doing that on the Airport line...   :bi

[somebody]

I was thinking of house keys.  If you aren't driving (or even if you are), leaving the house keys at home can leave you in a pickle if you live alone.

I guess there are a couple of other issues with go.

If anything I want to know if anyone is buying gocards with a few bucks of credit and then binning them at the end of long trips with incurred debt as it would work out cheaper. I wonder if anyone is doing that on the Airport line...   :bi

In general, they check your balance when touching on.  Or at least they used to.  Perhaps there is some technology defence against this one.

[HappyTrainGuy]

i thought it calculated the trip when you touch off. $5 to buy, $5 credit makes an even $10. $2 cheaper than a one way adult peak hour gocard trip to Nambour.

[somebody]

Touch ons at the airport have a $25 fixed fare though.  I was actually referring to the staff which used to check that there was enough balance on the card for the trip.  Not sure if they are still doing so.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Ah right. Maybe only on trips to the airport then.

[O_128]

If anything I want to know if anyone is buying gocards with a few bucks of credit and then binning them at the end of long trips with incurred debt as it would work out cheaper. I wonder if anyone is doing that on the Airport line...   :bi

I always do that when I go to the airport line, If they are going to play dirty with there extra fee if you don't break your trip then so will I

[HappyTrainGuy]

Well, that answers if its possible. I bow to you sir haha 

[dwb]

No need to mess with the system, the system's great IMO.  The only issue is refunds for tourists, and the readers in weather exposed locations.

And maybe gate opening/closing speeds.

[dwb]

This story is from the ABC newssite.  It seems the 15 percent annual fare hike is 'predetermined' and will continue:

They were quite clear about that when they published the future five years of fares.

[dwb]

And an hourly frequency route, running in low density areas with limited passengers, is going to have major issues running on time?

Happens now, and it's not impossible in the future.

Even with two hourly routes, you'd have to have them lined up at the most awkward time AND have one of them late and the other early to actually exceed the hour transfer window. So it is only going to be a small percentage of a small percentage, so I think it is time people on here started to think more strategically.

No, only the second leg (or later leg) of a journey needs to be hourly to have a potential problem when there is late running.

If the first route were every ten minutes then I would suggest better timing your first bus with your (expected) connecting bus... it would be nicer to spend an extra 10 (or whatever) minutes at the cafe with your friends at the commencement of your journey than at the end alone... so the worst connection is the hour to hourly... but that surely is rare in places and rare for consumes, and then that bad hour-hour transfer is the worst it could get. Ie all evidence as to why the fare calculating rules shouldn't be based around it.

[mufreight]

With the lack of co-ordination between bus and train here in Ipswich and the lack of co-ordination between the train and the bus at for instance at Corinda with the 104 to PA Hospital to connect with a Carindale bus it is quite easy to be outside the two hour transfer limit.

[somebody]

And an hourly frequency route, running in low density areas with limited passengers, is going to have major issues running on time?

Happens now, and it's not impossible in the future.

Even with two hourly routes, you'd have to have them lined up at the most awkward time AND have one of them late and the other early to actually exceed the hour transfer window. So it is only going to be a small percentage of a small percentage, so I think it is time people on here started to think more strategically.

No, only the second leg (or later leg) of a journey needs to be hourly to have a potential problem when there is late running.

If the first route were every ten minutes then I would suggest better timing your first bus with your (expected) connecting bus... it would be nicer to spend an extra 10 (or whatever) minutes at the cafe with your friends at the commencement of your journey than at the end alone... so the worst connection is the hour to hourly... but that surely is rare in places and rare for consumes, and then that bad hour-hour transfer is the worst it could get. Ie all evidence as to why the fare calculating rules shouldn't be based around it.

Not if you are turn up and go'ing for the first bus, or the first bus runs late.

Although I would suggest Indooroopilly as a place where there are several hourly routes (430, 433, 435, 445, 468, 105, GCL).  Chermside (325, 334, 335, GCL, others) and Carindale (215, 202, 203, 212, GCL, others).

It can happen.  Why shouldn't the system allow for it?

With the lack of co-ordination between bus and train here in Ipswich and the lack of co-ordination between the train and the bus at for instance at Corinda with the 104 to PA Hospital to connect with a Carindale bus it is quite easy to be outside the two hour transfer limit.

That only applies to paper ticket users.  Who I don't have much sympathy for.

[mufreight]

That only applies to paper ticket users.  Who I don't have much sympathy for.

They are still fare paying customers who are paying a premium on their fares

[Fares_Fair]

^ Why no sympathy for paper ticket users ?

^ Do you mean for bus users or public transport generally ?

Regards,
Fares_Fair.