New fare strategy - articles and discussion

[dwb]

@Jon B

Like my phone I could also get an e-mail showing my regular useage and a recommednation of which plan might be better to move to next month.

Absolutely, and even before you sign up there could be a little calculator that worked out how much you're likely to need...
ie input your trip pattern

for me, something like

9x M-F peak commuter trips 2 zones
3x M-F offpeak journeys 1 zone
3-5x S-S offpeak journeys 2 zones
$X with $Y included free value.

Better still, there don't even need to be fixed products. The discount could be worked out to proportionally/expontentially (or something mathematical) increase from a certain point to a certain point and the end user only needs to know roughly how much they'll spend each month. I see no real need for stepped products like Three although it might be argued this would better promote modal shift.

[Jon Bryant]

How about linking Go cards so the whole family gets a bigger discount the more they travel.  We need to be encouraging public transport use to reduce the amount we drive as a socitey.

There could also 2 products (1) Monthly Flexible Cap (above) and (2) Prepaids like we have with mobiles.  You guys may have already discussed this.

[dwb]

How about linking Go cards so the whole family gets a bigger discount the more they travel.  We need to be encouraging public transport use to reduce the amount we drive as a socitey.

Jon, I hadn't thought about it but its a fantastic idea! That way you could link 4 cards (or more) on 1 account and pick a value for the account that is spread across the cards. Great!!

[somebody]

Further they highlight the falseness of the myth that public transport is more expensive than car travel.  

Sydney is far from world's best practice in public transport. But even there, a 2009 study by the University of Technology (UTS) found that of all modes of transport, trains had the lowest overall economic cost at 47? per passenger kilometre, compared with 57? for buses and 86? for cars. The common perception that public transport is subsidised to a greater level than cars was found to be contradicted by the evidence.

Often Treasury just looks at it in terms of big dollops of dollars for infrastructure that you need for rail systems rather than looking at the long-term costs. I think we've built our city around the car to some extent and I think it's going to take a while to move away from it.
---Study author Garry Glazebrook, Sydney Morning Herald, 17 March 2009

That's interesting, but I do question how this translates to Brisbane.  Sydney's trains are roughly twice the size, and they should (theoretically) be able to live with about the same staff per train (I don't think that they do though).  Also Sydney has no real busways (unless you count the M2/Moore Park/Liverpool-Parramatta), but they do have a much more extensive effort in bus/transit lanes than Brisbane.  That probably wouldn't even out, so I'd suggest that the trains are significantly more expensive to run per passenger kilometre, and the busses are a bit more expensive to run per passenger kilometre.

One of the major problems with running such a dodgy off peak rail service is that a lot of the costs of running the rail system are fixed, so the variable cost of providing a better off peak service is slight, but would promote more fares.

It is hard to maintain, though, that fuel taxes then spent on roads is a subsidy.

[Jon Bryant]

I think there will be swings and roundabout that make it much the same.  Their double decker trains cost a lot more to move and have longer dwell times, etc and you highlight bus lanes vs bus ways.  the busways move far greater number more quickly than a bus lane so that also brings to amounts back.

The key point is that public transport of any form is more efficient than the private car.  That is not debatable. Not well understood but not debatable. 

I not sure the article was trying to claim the fuel taxes that is spent on roads as a subsidy. Rather it added up all the road revenue and road costs and found that cost outweight revenue (of all means) by 3 to 1.  That is the subsidy.

I do agree with you on

One of the major problems with running such a dodgy off peak rail service is that a lot of the costs of running the rail system are fixed, so the variable cost of providing a better off peak service is slight, but would promote more fares.

[dwb]

yeah and not only that but the South East Busway was built INSTEAD of a very expensive piece of highly ineffectual highway at a significantly lower cost... so its easy to see investment in PT is more efficient

[Derwan]

Linking multiple cards onto a single account is a great idea!  You can already do this with the Go viaTag.  Tolls for all cars are applied to a single account.

Unfortunately the whole Go Card system is card oriented.  Values are actually stored on the card - not an account.  There is no "account" as such.  You log in to a system using your card number, which stores your personal and credit card details and allows you to view transactions and top-up cards.

It would be nice if this was switched to a single login system that could manage multiple cards, where you could maintain a single set of personal information and credit card details, see balances of all cards in one hit and top up each card as necessary.

[justanotheruser]

the government is NOT a private company which menas they cant do what they want without public consultation so why do they think they can raise fares without providing a proper fare strucuture or service. and they are not listening to any public feedback taht has been happening over the last few days!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

out of curiosity where does it say we HAVE to be consulted?
I understand consultation is good. it is better when they are actually consulting rather than pretending to consult (that is they have made a decision and are going through consultation process just to keep people happy. happens alot with government)

[dwb]

Surely the back half could be the transaction history and the front half can be account based billing linked into cards?!

[justanotheruser]

Unfortunately the whole Go Card system is card oriented.  Values are actually stored on the card - not an account.  There is no "account" as such.  You log in to a system using your card number, which stores your personal and credit card details and allows you to view transactions and top-up cards.

While I could be wrong I believe this is due to there being a fee for each individual GO card. So setting up one account with multiple cards may affect the income which results in poor design.

[#Metro]

Jon, I hadn't thought about it but its a fantastic idea! That way you could link 4 cards (or more) on 1 account and pick a value for the account that is spread across the cards. Great!!

Hmm. Don't know about families.
But I can see a different use for linked or special accounts- corporate travel.
Rather than have all those perks for cars, give them a GoCard... GoCard Platinum

Though the TL would have set extremely high aims for itself. Corporate customers will only bother if the system is unbelievably reliable. Maybe those pollies on perks who have life gold pass should get one too...

[somebody]

Their double decker trains cost a lot more to move

How so?  Electricity?  It's staff that are expensive.

and have longer dwell times

A cost which definitely favours Brisbane.

, etc and you highlight bus lanes vs bus ways.  the busways move far greater number more quickly than a bus lane so that also brings to amounts back.

Yep, but their network of bus/transit lanes is pretty vast.  Our network, outside of the busways, is poor.  And the busways only cover parts of Brissie.

The key point is that public transport of any form is more efficient than the private car.  That is not debatable. Not well understood but not debatable. 

No argument there.

I not sure the article was trying to claim the fuel taxes that is spent on roads as a subsidy.

The article stated "The common perception that public transport is subsidised to a greater level than cars was found to be contradicted by the evidence".  Cars may COST more, but if you subtract fuel excise from road funding, and then compare that to public transport subsidies, I wouldn't expect the answer to come out in favour of public transport.  Maybe if you add in the costs of road trauma, climate change etc.

[Jon Bryant]

The analysis included all the costs associated with vehicle transport and a major component, that is totally ignored by our transport planners and politicians, is road trauma at 37% of the road costs.  The other categories were Road construction and maintenance, land use, noise, urban air pollution, climate change, tax concession on cars and state fuel subsidies.

When looked at holitically the costs of vehcile transport are much higher than public transport.  When we add in the social benefits of greater mobility of the elderly, the young, etc and every growing congestion costs the triple bottom line cost of public transport is fraction of the cost of vehicle transport. 

If we continue to have 97% of trips made by car we will send this country broke.  Simple as that.
 

[somebody]

The analysis included all the costs associated with vehicle transport and a major component, that is totally ignored by our transport planners and politicians, is road trauma at 37% of the road costs.  The other categories were Road construction and maintenance, land use, noise, urban air pollution, climate change, tax concession on cars and state fuel subsidies.

Only QLD was stupid enough to have a fuel subsidy: really a tax reduction, but all that paperwork for cheaper fuel?  Bad policy, but very popular.

I didn't think road trauma would be as high as 37%, but I still don't think that gets cars over the line as being more highly subsidised.  It works out as about 32c/pax km vs 75% of 47c/pax km for CityRail travel, which works out as about 35c/pax km.  I'm pretty sure that fuel taxes exceed road spending.  Sorry, but the only way it gets there is if CityRail is less subsidised than QLD public transport, which is highly possible.

[Jon Bryant]

Somebody, the numbers are there and they are from official sources.  The fuel excise hardly covers the cost of contruction and maintenance.  Also consider that more road space ecourages people to drive more for little econmoic benefit at all. The cost of congestion is also not inlcuded.  Building more roads creates worse congestion whilst public transport reduces it.  The cost of trauma will also never cover the emotional cost of a lost or broken life.   I would also add increase policing costs as the roads we are building create unsafe cities as they get bigger and wider.  Then there is the cost of reduce mobility for those without cars (yes there are poeple who don't have a car or cannot drive...shock horror).

As upsetting as it is it road funding exceed road spending.  It is a reality we need to deal with and move on.  Road funding is not sustainable even if calculated over very short (2-3years). All tunnels and major freeways in Australia a either broke or subsudies by the Government.  When assessed over longer period it is just finanical neglegent to keep building more and more roads.

[#Metro]

I thought that it might be good to have a dedicated thread for discussions of Roads & PT, so that this one could continue to be about fares.
http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2902.0

[dwb]

After reading this forum, I'm wondering what people think is most important to fix first so I've written a small survey. It is three questions and will take about a minute to submit, all answers appreciated.
http://www.surveygizmo.com/s/193374/top-remaining-issues-for-go-card-implementation
Cheers, David

Well, so far it seems that the major issues for the pop quiz are:
2.9   lack of monthly style product
3.5   pricing
4.2   current lack of off-peak product
5.1   lack of top-up facilities at busway stations/interchanges
5.2   slow gates at railway stations/ too few touch off locations at railway stations/ slow to disembark buses
5.2   refunds for incorrect fares too hard to get
6.8   lack of auto top up from credit card
6.9   badly designed touch screen options
7.1   penalty fares too high
8.3   badly designed of web interface (journey history, log in etc)
10.8   other

The number indicates the average rank of importance from 1 to 11.

The question asked "Please order the following from most important to least important for Translink to fix PRIOR to changing paper ticket pricing".

Responses for 'other' included:
- ability to purchase cards. should be every QR station
- daily cap, weekly and yearly options needed
- expiry of concession Go cards and inability to get a credit from newsagents, have to get via a paper form from TL
- Lack of daily cap
- Lack of gates at all stations
- no capping
- Too many changes at once. Should have just abolished paper and then upped the fares.

The survey is still open in others wish to have their say.

[ozbob]

Thanks Dwb for doing the survey and sharing the results.  It confirms much of what members and others are saying and feedback.

Meanwhile ...

From the Courier Mail click here!

Go card shows disconnect between politicians and public

Go card shows disconnect between politicians and public
Article from: The Courier-Mail

By Mike O'Connor

October 25, 2009 11:00pm

IT'S an article of faith held dear by our elected representatives that the grubby masses must get back on the buses, trains and ferries.

Politicians never catch public transport themselves. What's the point in having a lovely new taxpayer-funded car in the garage or, in the case of ministers, a chauffeur as well, if you're going to catch the bus?

No point at all, obviously. The rest of us, however, are upbraided for our fondness for private transport and exhorted to be environmentally responsible by joining the commuter strap-hangers.

In a bid to encourage this, the Queensland Government has provided a limited, sub-standard rail service while the Brisbane City Council operates a bus service that regularly leaves would-be patrons stranded at the roadside waving forlornly to their fellow commuters as they roar past, faces flattened against the window by the press of humanity within.

We could, of course, build a proper rail network of the kind that operates in most major cities in developed countries but that would require money and property resumptions which could cost votes. Best not to go there, obviously.

The trains may be late and the buses full but what matters is that we get the technology right.

And so it was that after the stuff-ups and slapstick routines, which are an integral part of the implementation of any State Government policy, Transport Minister Rachel Nolan announced the end of paper ticketing and the wholesale adoption of the go card.

Features positively aglow with joy and artfully applied make-up and jaw aching from hours of practising her camera-ready smile, the minister announced the wondrous news.

As part of her strategy to lure people away from their cars and put a go card in the wallet of every Greater Brisbane commuter, the minister hit on a unique strategy ? a massive increase in fares that would cost many commuters thousands of extra dollars a year to get to work.

Brilliant! Why hasn't anyone else thought of this? It just works on so many levels.

To begin with, because of the zone system, you pay more the further you live from the CBD. This ensures that people living in distant, less-affluent suburbs and least able to afford to pay more will be hit harder hit than well-heeled, inner-city dwellers.

Serves them right for being poor. What was that about the Labor Party looking out for the Aussie battler?

Cameron Prout, local CEO of the Heart Foundation, all but suffered a coronary on hearing of the Government's move. It flew, he said, in the face of everything the foundation was trying to achieve, which was to get people to walk to the bus stop or train station. "This will send them back to their cars," he said as he headed off to have his blood pressure checked.

Deputy Premier Paul Lucas, chauffeur-driven car parked discreetly around the corner and displaying an empathy with the working class of which Louis XIV would have been proud, said that people weren't terribly worried about how much public transport cost as long as they got better service.

How he came to this view is unclear, but it would be reasonable to presume that it wasn't by conducting a poll of commuters on the peak-hour rattler from Darra to Central.

Then again, as an MP he gets free rail travel, which may account for his Magoo-like view of the electorate's attitude to the cost of living.

In an entertaining attempt to deflect attention away from the fare increases and trumpet go card, Lucas said: "World-class public transport systems have world-class ticketing systems."

Agreed, dear boy, but Brisbane doesn't have a world-class public transport system.

In another sadly flawed attempt to justify the move by quoting overseas best practice, the Government attempted to say that the move put Brisbane in line with cities such as London, New York and Paris.

This showed that even when overseas on taxpayer-funded junkets, Bligh and company don't use public transport. If they did, they'd know that you can buy electronic cards that allow for unlimited travel for extended periods rather than being subjected to the rapacious zone system.

Transport Minister Nolan then attempted to justify the system by saying travellers could qualify for a discount if they made more than 10 journeys. But what if I want to make nine journeys? Or eight? Why should I be penalised?

As people wait for a bus or train, which may or may not turn up and may or may not be full, they could be excused for wondering just what it is they get for their taxes, given that they are now expected to redraw their household budgets to pay for the cost of government transport services.

This is a cash grab by a desperate political machine but what is curious is that, according to Lucas, no one in the Government thought of putting up the fares before the March election, which was why Bligh hadn't mentioned it during the campaign.

Then again, as election slogans go "Vote for me and I'll double your train fares" isn't one of the better ones.

[#Metro]

As much as I like PT, I think this article spent too much time attacking politicians as living in
transit la la land and stirring irritation rather than actually making a  good case for PT.

Politicians never catch public transport themselves. What's the point in having a lovely new taxpayer-funded car in the garage or, in the case of ministers, a chauffeur as well, if you're going to catch the bus?

Didn't Peter Beattie catch the train from time to time? And anyway, there are so many angry voters on services, and the services are not always reliable I wouldn't catch them either!

We could, of course, build a proper rail network of the kind that operates in most major cities in developed countries but that would require money and property resumptions which could cost votes. Best not to go there, obviously.

Perth has far higher frequencies- even on a Sunday. Melbourne has a nice network and trams, and they fire and fine their operators if they don't stack up, Sydney has double deck trains. Brisbane runs trains every 30 minutes, and the government fines itself! But the argument that advanced in that paragraph overlooks the fact that we can have an excellent rail system now by just upping the frequency! Do that and people will come.

And I have managed to track down evidence for this "frequency" effect. Its called the "Mohring effect", published in 1972! (wow, how behind are we?) The massive climb in passengers upon the introduction of Brisbane's BUZ services is hard proof that this effect works.

To begin with, because of the zone system, you pay more the further you live from the CBD. This ensures that people living in distant, less-affluent suburbs and least able to afford to pay more will be hit harder hit than well-heeled, inner-city dwellers.

This one is a bind, and possibly more to do with bad planning. PT wins over cars hands down in denser areas- i.e. closer to the city.To get services to far places is more costly, so they should pay more. And this argument does not follow- are people on the Gold Coast (80 km away) or Sunshine Coast poor? Am I well heeled? If I was a rich toff, I would be driving my (non-existent) Lexus or Mercedes to work, paying tolls etc not catching PT.

This is a cash grab by a desperate political machine but what is curious is that, according to Lucas, no one in the Government thought of putting up the fares before the March election, which was why Bligh hadn't mentioned it during the campaign.
Then again, as election slogans go "Vote for me and I'll double your train fares" isn't one of the better ones.

Prices do need to go up. History shows that they always have, and I think they always will. Keeping prices artificially low to curry favour with the electorate might be a short term gain, but only delays the day of reckoning. And it means that the next price jump has to be bigger than what it would be- hence the scheduled 15% jumps per year in prices proposed. And I think it delays the introduction of higher frequency services, which on balance, would pull more passengers than a fare freeze or cut.

References
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohring_effect

[ozbob]

The article is a 'Monday View' piece, they tend to be a bit like that tramtrain.

Minister Nolan does travel on the Ipswich line as well.

Still the point is made, we do need some further options on the go  

Set up a thread for the Mohring effect click --> http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=2918.0

[Emmie]

Like Tramtrain, I'm a bit sceptical of the tone of this article - Mike O'Connor usually comes across in his articles as a complete petrol head, so he's not the most obvious advocate of public transport.

I don't doubt that some politicians use public transport on their home turf - if they are sensible, it's an obvious way of keeping an eye on their electorate, and getting a feel for current concerns.

But I wonder how many of them use public transport when they are abroad?  It's so much easier, when you're on an expense account, to rely on taxis, especially when your time is limited.  I'd like Anna Bligh and her friends to buy Oyster Cards in London, or in Hong Kong or wherever - then they might think twice before prattling about Brisbane's world class system.

[stephenk]

I think this article brings up some very good points, particularly the "World-class public transport systems have world-class ticketing systems" quote.

Sorry Bligh, Lucas, Nolan et al - the following is not "world class" for a city with Brisbane's population:
Chronic bus overcrowding (even on new infrastructure)
Limited bus services to many parts of the city
30 minute off-peak rail frequency
1 hour late night & Sunday am rail frequency
23 minute gaps during the peaks on busy rail lines
Poor rail infrastructure, and lack of forward planning
Ticketing system which does not encourage frequent public transport use
Ticketing price rises of over 35%

[dwb]

I've seen the Treasurer and his wife on the buses at different times when I would have expected him to get a cab, but then maybe he's stingy and that's why he's Treasurer? lol

[dwb]

I wonder where we are in the five stages of grieving for reasonably priced public transport fares??

The Five Stages Of Grief (Dr. Elisabeth Kubler-Ross)

1. Denial and Isolation.
At first, we tend to deny the loss has taken place. This can't be happening to me. This is not in my script. For a time, we may withdraw from our usual social contacts. We internalize and keep it to ourselves. Grief can be a very personal thing. This stage may last a few moments, or weeks.

2. Anger.
We may then be furious at the person who inflicted the hurt (even if she's dead), or at the world, for letting it happen. How dare this happen to me, me! What have I done to deserve something like this. We may be angry with ourself for letting the event take place, even if, realistically, nothing could have stopped it.

3. Bargaining.
Now we may make bargains with God, asking, "If I do this, will you take away the loss?"

4. Depression/Guilt.
We feel numb, although anger and sadness may remain underneath. If only - If only I had done this, or if only I had said that.

5. Acceptance.
This is when the anger, sadness and mourning have tapered off. We can now simply accept the reality of the loss.

[#Metro]

Hmm. Here's one

I wonder where we are in the five stages of grieving for reasonably priced public transport fares??

The Five Six Stages in Brief

1. Denial and Spin
At first, we tend to deny that we have a problem. Sure Perth runs trains at 2x the frequency of ours, but we have GoCard which puts us up with London, Paris, and New York. Like anyone in those three cities would know where Brisbane is! Pollies pulled out figures with a core message "we spend lots of money on PT and we promise to spend even more of your money on it!". Funny how they didn't talk about what happened to the last truckload of cash you gave them...

2. Anger.
How dare this happen to me, me! Someone else should pay!

3. Bargaining.
Now we may make bargains with Gov, asking, "If I do this, will you take away the loss?"
The opposition offers visions of transit utopia where buses are plentiful and free, roads are wild and traffic free paradises, and petrol is subsidised. Everything you ever wanted for nothing!

4. Depression/Guilt.
If only - If only I hadn't voted for them, or if I had actually read their policies last election...

5. Acceptance.
This is when the anger, sadness and mourning have tapered off. You accept that there is no space for your car on the road, petrol isn't free and the toll, rego and speeding fines went up again last week. We can now simply accept that most stations don't have fare gates, we can get a quick ride when no-one is looking.

6. Forgetfulness
Oh, I'll vote for them next time. They are not that bad...

[O_128]

we are at anger i think though 3 doesnt count as there was and will be no public consultation

[dwb]

we are at anger i think though 3 doesnt count as there was and will be no public consultation

Good point O_128!!

[stephenk]

is road trauma at 37% of the road costs. 

Good point. When I worked in a busy hospital emergency department in London, I would estimate that time spent dealing with road accidents outweighed time dealing with public transport accidents by at least a factor of 10! This is in a city with very high public transport use.

[ozbob]

From the South East Advertiser 28th October 2009 page 5

Opinion divided over fare increase

[justanotheruser]

After reading this forum, I'm wondering what people think is most important to fix first so I've written a small survey. It is three questions and will take about a minute to submit, all answers appreciated.

- expiry of concession Go cards and inability to get a credit from newsagents, have to get via a paper form from TL

I was informed by TL that all I had to do was call them to transfer concession card over to a newly purchased adult card. Does this mean all I have to do is call them and have them send out a form? or is it done over the phone now?
Anyone know or able to find out for certain?

[justanotheruser]

If I was a rich toff, I would be driving my (non-existent) Lexus or Mercedes to work, paying tolls etc not catching PT.

See this is part of the problem we need to combat. there is a perception that if you earn a certain amount of money or have certain jobs then you MUST drive even if you don't use your car at work at all.

[justanotheruser]

Minister Nolan does travel on the Ipswich line as well.

Really? how often? Minister nolan has had how many speeding tickets recently? I think she drives and just occasionly jumps onto a train for pure publicity reasons.

[dwb]

Since the announcement I've bought a new go card and started using the system again. This week I've had a few bus stops not automatically come up (had to go to driver and request) and in the last couple of days practically every machine I used was silent and did not beep. This small useability issue really needs to be solved prior to enforced use.

I've also been a bit peeved cos I forgot to buy an offpeak daily on Saturday and I ended up paying for 3 full priced single trips.... grrrr!

[WTN]

I've also been a bit peeved cos I forgot to buy an offpeak daily on Saturday and I ended up paying for 3 full priced single trips.... grrrr!

This has to be one of my biggest gripes against the go card.  I really do hope they bring out capping of some sort, even if it's just daily or off-peak daily at first.

[dwb]

??What we have got here is a smart system, that is going to be very strongly welcomed as it rolls out in Melbourne. (But) there will be system glitches, partly because the system is getting up to full speed with more than 1 million customers that we are expecting within a matter of months,?? she said.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/there-will-be-system-glitches-myki-users-to-cop-penalty-20091020-h605.html?autostart=1

Now that is an interesting goal/projection, and if reached would put Brisbane to shame.

[dwb]

According to http://www.translink.com.au/customerservice.php

TransLink will also introduce a new suite of go card ticketing options based on customer requirements.

as received through the call centre...

So has everyone rung them and told them what they think?!

[dwb]

Just been reading about Varsity Lakes, does anyone think it is cynical of me that come Jan 4 I expect an announcement regarding the new services to Varsity Lakes, changes to the 109 to UQ and significant improvements on the INB to Royal Brisbane Hospital??

All funded by additional fares raised under Go card of course, but probably not implemented until end Feb to coincide with school/uni going back.

[somebody]

Just been reading about Varsity Lakes, does anyone think it is cynical of me that come Jan 4 I expect an announcement regarding the new services to Varsity Lakes, changes to the 109 to UQ and significant improvements on the INB to Royal Brisbane Hospital??

All funded by additional fares raised under Go card of course, but probably not implemented until end Feb to coincide with school/uni going back.

What's cynical about that?

I'm cynical in the sense that I expect to hear nothing, other than the openning of Varsity Lakes.

P.S. You left out improved off peak rail services.

[ozbob]

From the Brisbane mX 4th November 2009 page 1

Riders pay to park

[dwb]

I think those parking in park and ride should pay... there is a cost in provision of parking that shouldn't be burdened on to those who walk to the stations.