New fare strategy - articles and discussion

[somebody]

Yes convienience trips are a great idea. but what about lines where it doubles back such as the cleveland line where it would be cheaper to travel to manly than to wynumm north for example

Does this necessarily matter? Over the longer term it would promote more responsive infrastructure pattern, for example Elleanor Schonell made many trips to UQ much more efficient. If passengers had never been "paying" for that extra distance the operators/infrastructure planners may have needed to be smarter about it earlier. I realise this will probably cause some consternation, but another way to implement something similar could be route distance... but then the passenger gets penalised for silly routes that double back on themselves.

I agree.  Silly routes should be the responsiblity of the transport provider, not the traveller.  Indeed it is one of the reasons I suggested an as the crow flies distance rather than a route distance.

[dwb]

After reading this forum, I'm wondering what people think is most important to fix first so I've written a small survey. It is three questions and will take about a minute to submit, all answers appreciated.
http://www.surveygizmo.com/s/193374/top-remaining-issues-for-go-card-implementation

Cheers, David

[#Metro]

@dwb

Another way to look at infrastructure costs is this, if you worked out how much more than currently it would cost to get the same benefit without the infrastructure (think more buses), then the interest bill for the capital investment should be lower (note, not the cost of the infrastructure)!

Railways, busways etc will be around and paying dividends to community for 50, 80, 100 years or more and thus should be paid for over longer terms than 5, 10, 20 years.

Oh, I am well aware. I think this is the logic behind why the BCC has sold off its bus fleet and ferries, and then has them leased back to it. Your treatment of implicit costs is quite valid, but if the gov borrows more money (which I think it does not have too much choice in the matter) it is going to get voted out.

I am also reminded by a situation where I was stuck at the grocers with less money than the final bill. Now I could have argued with the checkout assistant about my social, environmental and other benefits to myself and society, but the fact was, if I didn't hand over the cash, I would not get it.

And while we are on the topic of caps... It dawned on me that Sizzler Toowong has price caps in place as well! It's called all you can eat. They must be very clever, because they haven't gone broke :-)
And as we know most people only make two trips on PT in a day and would rather do many other things than be on buses or trains all day, there is a powerful case for unlimited travel caps- for the right price.

[Derwan]

Yes convienience trips are a great idea. but what about lines where it doubles back such as the cleveland line where it would be cheaper to travel to manly than to wynumm north for example

Is it really the commuter's fault that the train line takes them out of their way before reaching their destination?

Also, how many cross-suburb commuters have to pay for extra zones simply because they have to travel towards the city and then out again on a different line?

This linear distance thing could have merit.  Rather than circles heading out of the city to determine zones, it could be circles heading out of each commuter's origin.  Then it would be a simple distance calculation to the destination.  Up to 5km might be a single zone fare, etc.

Of course you'd lose the capping effect for commuters travelling beyond the city.

[O_128]

Yes convienience trips are a great idea. but what about lines where it doubles back such as the cleveland line where it would be cheaper to travel to manly than to wynumm north for example

Is it really the commuter's fault that the train line takes them out of their way before reaching their destination?

Also, how many cross-suburb commuters have to pay for extra zones simply because they have to travel towards the city and then out again on a different line?

This linear distance thing could have merit.  Rather than circles heading out of the city to determine zones, it could be circles heading out of each commuter's origin.  Then it would be a simple distance calculation to the destination.  Up to 5km might be a single zone fare, etc.

Of course you'd lose the capping effect for commuters travelling beyond the city.

what i mean is that a person travelling to manly which is further away by rail but is closer in a linear distance.

[ozbob]

From the Courier Mail click here!

Commuters demand Go Card discount packages

Commuters demand Go Card discount packages
Article from: The Courier-Mail

Patrick Lion

October 20, 2009 11:00pm

COMMUTERS are demanding Go Card discounts, claiming some travellers will be up to $1400 a year worse off under even before massive fare hikes begin.

Lobby group Back on Track has raised concerns over the impact of the new fare structure on high-use travellers currently using weekly or monthly paper tickets, which will be phased out.

For example, a current Queensland Rail pass for 15 zones between Brisbane and Robina costs $2990 for 12 months.

But under the new system implemented in January, a Go Card user travelling five days a week would be slugged $4320 a year.

This bill would continue to rise 15 per cent a year until 2014.

The Government has attempted to claim the fare rises are necessary to ensure southeast Queensland has a world-class public transport system similar to New York or London.

However, commuters in both those cities pay a flat fare for unlimited use of their smartcards over a day, week, fortnight or three month-period.

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan last night dismissed the schemes and backed her option.

"We have opted to reward frequent customers with a 50 per cent discount when more than 10 journeys are taken in a Monday to Sunday week," she said in a statement.

However, Back on Track spokesman Robert Dow said the Government's research showed 95 per cent of commuters took 10 or fewer trips a week and would therefore not get the discount.

"We are very concerned about the cost impact on high users who travel five days a week (10 trips) and may be forced back on to the roads," Mr Dow said.

"They haven't looked at options for high-use travellers to use public transport."

The criticism comes after the group initially gave broad support to the measures last week when The Courier-Mail revealed the new strategy aimed at pushing commuters from paper tickets to the hi-tech Go Card.

Go Card fares will initially rise about 20 per cent from January 4 while commuters who linger on paper tickets will be slugged up to 40 per cent.

But the increases until 2014 will be far greater, with most fares to rise about 110 per cent over five years.

For example, an adult five-zone trip will rise from the present $3.44 to $7.19 in January, 2014.

[ozbob]

If myki can do it capping etc. why can't the go card?

--> http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=655.msg15363#msg15363

Myki does cap at a daily fare, see --> here!

[Jon Bryant]

It can.  All it needs is the political recognition that every trip taken by public transport makes our cities more efficient and sustainable financially, socially and environmentally. 

[dwb]

@derwan

Of course you'd lose the capping effect for commuters travelling beyond the city.

What do you mean?

If you have a boarding fee and a distance fee per trip, then that equates exactly in my mind to how a telephone call works on a mobile, you pay a flagfall/connection fee and then a time fee (normally 30sec chunks but sometimes not).  You can still have "caps" that work on a VALUE basis, which is what I've been continually arguing for. Ie a high user that travels far will still pay more than a low user who travels the same distance, because the value of the cap is not an "all you can eat" over this distance, rather, it is related to the value you chose.

[somebody]

Of course you'd lose the capping effect for commuters travelling beyond the city.

So you mean the effect where someone travelling Petrie-Darra pays the same as someone travelling Petrie-Central?  The former get an inequitable discount, so removing that is not exactly a disadvantage.

[ozbob]

Just for interest folks here is the myki ticketing manual.   See page 56 for capping.

http://www.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/assets/PDFs/2009-Fares-and-Ticketing-Manual/MYKI-Ticketing-manual.pdf

Daily Cap
This is the maximum fare charged for unlimited travel in
the zone(s) in which travel takes place on a single day.
Daily cap amounts for each zone combination are shown
in the table on pages 59-60.
Note that Daily cap amounts for users of concession mykis
are 50% of the full fare Daily cap.

This is exactly what we need for the go card.  

TransLink and Queensland Transport, could you please read this manual?

[#Metro]

If myki can do it capping etc. why can't the go card?

We can't because this is Queensland! Were 20 years behind everyone else.

[Fares_Fair]

The truly massive price increases up until 2014 under the guise of furthering PT in Queensland
is clearly and deliberately meant to be counter-productive.

The Government is struggling to meet current demands and hasn't got a hope of catering for the projected increased demand in the future.

These increases will indeed drive us (excuse the pun) back onto the congested roads
and alleviate the rail network capacity problems.

Roads must be cheaper to build than Rail under the Government's logic !!

Regards,
Fares_Fair

[johnnigh]

I don't know how reliable my informant is, but the suggestion was that the new fares are 'another baby step' toward the 'ultimate' fare structure.

Given that the electronic ticketing system runs on a Windows server (we've all seen the start-up screen when a touch-screen at a station freezes and re-starts), the wonder is that it works at all, not that it could be made to handle ever more 'complex' (in computing terms) commands. The very best that can be said for the Translink system is that it doesn't have to deal with Sydney-style fares, with thousands of permutations. It would be better if the number of zones was reduced radically. Best of all, abolish fares entirely! Though that would create capacity problems until investment caught up - using the funds that would have been spent on the roads no longer needed

[ozbob]

Some feedback received, thanks!

Im a high user and travel down from Landsborough 5 days a week. I currently use a 6 month season ticket but as a result of the Translink decision I will incur a 51% increase in charges after 31 December 2009. I am absolutely furious the government has decided this course of action. I am not unreasonable and understand if costs have to rise but this is not acceptable and totally agree with your comments about forcing commuters back onto the roads. I would have thought a staged increase would be more acceptable if running costs have increased that much. I wouldnt be surprised if someone made an application for a judicial review, which would be very interesting!

[SteelPan]

Am I the only one of late thinking Brisbane/SE Qld's public transit is a bit on the EXPENSIVE side??
Also, re the POSSIBILE increase in fare evasion fines.  Is the issue really that BIG??  Will those fined be MADE to PAY up???
Finally, it's all well to have penalties aimed at the customer - what about when Translink runs seriously late or no-show scheduled services?

[O_128]

This must be in a different article but how dare Racheal Nohlan compare us to london. Sure london may be expensive but there service is 100% better than ours. Also when the current contract expires we should sign up with myki.

[STB]

Just to go slightly off topic then back on topic...

One of the things I know that TransLink have been wanting to get rid of for quite some time is the operator specific tickets, the QR only season tickets are cheaper but are limited to the QR services only.  The thoughts behind that was that if it's an integrated ticketing system, then why are there non-integrated tickets available.  I would suggest that part of the increase in fares is that it will enable users to have access to other forms of public transport ie: bus, ferry.  Although I am aware that not many are inclined to do this, moreso on rail, who prefer to park and ride, rather than use more than 2 modes of public transport, than any other form of public transport. 

I am also aware of one of the reasons is that people don't consider a park and riding as 'multi-mode' or even the driving to the railway station as part of their journey, even though it technically is, and therefore consider it to be a faster form than using bus-train, even though this may not be the case.

Even though there are bus routes out there that are timed to connect with rail and service a fairly wide area of where people would live to catch the train, the general uptake of this option has been much lower than in other cities, such as Perth where it's quite successful.  Not only that, it becomes a catch 22 scenario where because there is limited uptake of this option, the powers that be have a much more difficult job of convincing the money holders to provide money to up the frequency of the service, even though it may actually convince park and riders to use the bus-train option.

Although it can go deeper than that and going back to the ticketing side of things, that can be perceived from TransLink's perspective as another limitation of having operator-specific tickets that may have put off some potential users of multi-mode travel to do so.

Just thought I'd throw my 2c about that side of things, as one can see it is quite a complex issue when you add it in to what's already been posted here.

[ozbob]

Myki is being rolled out with an excellent range of fare options, exactly the sort of thing that work well here.   From comments made on blogs, feedback received here, letters to editor and so forth that the public is not accepting of the overly huge increases in their cost of travel, particularly long haul rail.

From the Brisbane mX 21st October 2009 page 2

Go Card limits a slug-fest

[O_128]

Myki is being rolled out with an excellent range of fare options, exactly the sort of thing that work well here.   From comments made on blogs, feedback received here, letters to editor and so forth that the public is not accepting of the overly huge increases in their cost of travel, particularly long haul rail.

From the Brisbane mX 21st October 2009 page 2

Go Card limits a slug-fest

Cant we just have Myki? is it that hard.

[dwb]

I for one don't want Myki, nor do I want something so complicated.  Value based caps and some balance in actual fare prices and Go card should work ok!

I can't believe Myki is going to be brilliant from the start, so in my mind we're still almost 2 years ahead of them.

[ozbob]

They could probably pacify most by having daily capping and a monthly option.

Oyster does that, and it's the same setup essentially.  Set up an account, user specifies their normal zones pre paid each month, travel outside those zones just debited for the normal go card fares via auto debit.

[O_128]

I for one don't want Myki, nor do I want something so complicated.  Value based caps and some balance in actual fare prices and Go card should work ok!

I can't believe Myki is going to be brilliant from the start, so in my mind we're still almost 2 years ahead of them.

well at least with myki there is an option for everyone not a one size fits all solution. also myki ahs been delayed several times and ahs been trailed in remote areas to make sure it works properly before being rolled out statewide. Ad to the fact that they have more advacned touch on/off machines with colour screens and that there fare gates work much better then i am estiamting they are about 5 years ahead,

on another i would like to see what will happen if someone uses a go card in melbourne or a myki here as they are the same tech.

[david]

Even though there are bus routes out there that are timed to connect with rail and service a fairly wide area of where people would live to catch the train, the general uptake of this option has been much lower than in other cities, such as Perth where it's quite successful.  Not only that, it becomes a catch 22 scenario where because there is limited uptake of this option, the powers that be have a much more difficult job of convincing the money holders to provide money to up the frequency of the service, even though it may actually convince park and riders to use the bus-train option.

Although it can go deeper than that and going back to the ticketing side of things, that can be perceived from TransLink's perspective as another limitation of having operator-specific tickets that may have put off some potential users of multi-mode travel to do so.

Couldn't agree more. The frequency of some buses which connect at train stations is rather shocking - I know of 4 routes which have a frequency of every 60 minutes! The passenger loads on these services are very light, hence why they aren't at a higher frequency. There should be some sort of incentive program to encourage people to utilise bus services which connect at train stations. While saying this, the 451, 452 and 462 (which feed into Darra) seem to be fairly popular. However, due to Darra station being in zone 3, most people using these services have to pay for an extra zone (which seems ridiculous to me). This seems to be the limiting factor to the popularity of these services.

Back on topic now...

Oyster does that, and it's the same setup essentially.  Set up an account, user specifies their normal zones pre paid each month, travel outside those zones just debited for the normal go card fares via auto debit.

Seems simple enough. That would probably be easier to program anyway.

[Paul.Zenon]

I just wanted to say thankyou to you Robert for the nobel and great media releases about this awful situation.  We appreciate your efforts sincerley.

God bless you.

If this is of any help to you I attach a comparason fares table for your consideration.

Best regards

Paul & Sue

[#Metro]

Hmm. I thought it would be good if you could just have a cap (randomly made up examples):

light        $29  = $75 worth of trips a month (a trip does not include a transfer)
medium   $49  = $100 worth of trips a month
heavy      $100 = $200 worth trips a month

No need to worry about zones- just choose the cap to suit your use.
Monthy paper tickets act like a cap- you can travel unlimited within the zones printed on the ticket,
at any time. Go Card will make everyone pay for each trip (ex. transfers). A more realistic monthly cap scheme for GoCard would be:

$99, $149, $199, $249 etc, a bit like how the paper monthlies are $108, $124, $150 etc. The good thing is that you could roam the entire network; The paper option only allows you to roam within the zones printed on the ticket. GoCard could then warn you when you were close to the limit, and then ask for top up when you exceeded your cap.

Alternatively, a daily fare cap like the Myki system might be better. It sounds simple enough.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myki

The myki system is designed to calculate the best fare for a commuter based on the amount of use. Thus, for example, once a card is used during more than one 2-hour period in a day it will be charged as a daily fare, rather than multiple 2-hourly fares. This best fare system applies up to daily fares. Longer periods of up to one year, at special rates, can be pre-loaded onto the card prior to travel.

It would be interesting to see what the fares will come out as. A two zone trip on Myki (in Geelong City) is $6.00 max all day. The GoCard fare for 2 zones would be $10.26 (peak hr work/home return and then off peak out for dinner and return home). I think prices could come down if the system were made more efficient (as dwb has suggested with bus lanes etc).

If the gov is so concerned about mounting costs to it, it should get more people on more bicycles.
We have had 'free' $900 stimulus cheques, free insulation and free water tanks, if the gov is serious there should be free bicycles (for a limited time).

We shall see.

[ozbob]

The go card fare system is worlds worst practice.

This is what Melbourne is doing.  Two types of ticketing on the myki - myki money (essentially replicates the go card fare structure BUT with the addition of daily capping.  Myki pass - optional periodical ticketing from any period 7 to 365 days, unrestricted travel in the zones with the travel outside the periodical ticket zones charged at the myki money structure with the application of capping when appropriate.

This is the sort of fare structure that encourages folks to use public transport and is equitable.

From the myki ticketing manual.

What is myki money?

Myki money is a dollar amount paid into the account associated with a customer's myki and recorded as value on the myki. In this manual this process is called topping up or loading myki money. The value recorded on the myki forms the myki money balance and can be used to pay for travel on public transport and other public transport services. With myki money, customers don?t have to make choices about zones or times; the correct fare for any journey is automatically calculated after the customer has touched on and touched off public transport. Fares are calculated according to where and when the customer travels, and the correct fare is automatically deducted from the myki money balance. In addition, Daily caps apply for travel. Note that, in order to guarantee automatic correct fare calculation for a trip, the customer must use the correct touch on and touch off behaviour (otherwise they may be charged a default fare).

What is a myki pass?

A myki pass is an authority to travel within a zone or range of zones for a period of time. A myki pass for 7 days or any number of days from 28 to 365 can be loaded onto a myki.

Travel beyond myki pass zone(s)

Where a myki pass holder wishes to travel outside the zone(s) for which the pass is valid, they should have sufficient myki money on their card, prior to travel, to pay for the additional travel. The cost of a trip will be equal to the price of the 2 hour fare for the zone(s) of travel minus the 2 hour fare for the zone(s) of travel covered by the myki pass. For example, a customer with a valid Zone 4 myki pass who makes a zone 4-5 trip would pay $1.20 ($3.00 for a 2 hour zone 4-5 fare minus $1.80 for a 2 hour zone 4 fare). Daily capping will continue to apply for travel outside the zone(s) for which a myki pass is valid in the usual way.

[ozbob]

Thanks Paul for your kind comments, we will continue to press for additional fare options on the go card.

==============================================

Sent to the Minister and all contacts:

22nd October 2009

Greetings,

Consider this.

The go card fare system needs further ticketing options.  If this was done the change over would occur with a lot less grief.

This is what Melbourne is doing.  Two types of ticketing on the myki - myki money (essentially replicates the go card fare structure BUT with the addition of daily capping).  Myki pass - optional periodical ticketing from any period 7 to 365 days, unrestricted travel in the zones with the travel outside the periodical ticket zones charged at the myki money structure with the application of capping when appropriate.  Melbourne also has a freeze on increased fares till the end of 2010 by the way as well.  Contrast this to south-east Queensland.

This is the sort of fare structure that encourages folks to use public transport and is equitable.  Saves money as more people use public transport, reduces congestion costs, reduces environmental impacts, reduces costs to the health sector.
From the myki ticketing manual  http://www.metlinkmelbourne.com.au/assets/PDFs/2009-Fares-and-Ticketing-Manual/MYKI-Ticketing-manual.pdf

This manual is a credit to the myki roll out.  Transport planners in south-east Queensland should take note.

What is myki money?

Myki money is a dollar amount paid into the account associated with a customer's myki and recorded as value on the myki. In this manual this process is called topping up or loading myki money. The value recorded on the myki forms the myki money balance and can be used to pay for travel on public transport and other public transport services. With myki money, customers don?t have to make choices about zones or times; the correct fare for any journey is automatically calculated after the customer has touched on and touched off public transport. Fares are calculated according to where and when the customer travels, and the correct fare is automatically deducted from the myki money balance. In addition, Daily caps apply for travel. Note that, in order to guarantee automatic correct fare calculation for a trip, the customer must use the correct touch on and touch off behaviour (otherwise they may be charged a default fare).

What is a myki pass?

A myki pass is an authority to travel within a zone or range of zones for a period of time. A myki pass for 7 days or any number of days from 28 to 365 can be loaded onto a myki.

Travel beyond myki pass zone(s)

Where a myki pass holder wishes to travel outside the zone(s) for which the pass is valid, they should have sufficient myki money on their card, prior to travel, to pay for the additional travel. The cost of a trip will be equal to the price of the 2 hour fare for the zone(s) of travel minus the 2 hour fare for the zone(s) of travel covered by the myki pass. For example, a customer with a valid Zone 4 myki pass who makes a zone 4-5 trip would pay $1.20 ($3.00 for a 2 hour zone 4-5 fare minus $1.80 for a 2 hour zone 4 fare). Daily capping will continue to apply for travel outside the zone(s) for which a myki pass is valid in the usual way.

There is a need to introduce further fare options on the go card before the phase out of paper.  There has been an overwhelming public outcry on this point.

Best wishes,
Robert

Robert Dow
Administration
RAIL Back On Track

[O_128]

the government is NOT a private company which menas they cant do what they want without public consultation so why do they think they can raise fares without providing a proper fare strucuture or service. and they are not listening to any public feedback taht has been happening over the last few days!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

[dwb]

the government is NOT a private company which menas they cant do what they want without public consultation so why do they think they can raise fares without providing a proper fare strucuture or service. and they are not listening to any public feedback taht has been happening over the last few days!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Huh?

Absolutely agree with you O_128. This is MAJOR policy change and should involve some form of engagement, if at the very least that means hosting an online discussion forum on Translinks website, publishing a draft strategy and taking, considering and responding to written submissions prior to amending the strategy and enacting it.  It is very basic process that should be followed!

[dwb]

@ozbob et al

Oyster does that, and it's the same setup essentially.  Set up an account, user specifies their normal zones pre paid each month, travel outside those zones just debited for the normal go card fares via auto debit.

Others have raised the idea that you need to accommodate different types of passengers, not just commuters, not just students, not just frequent or long distance travellers.

That is why I like the idea of a value based monthly cap, rather than a zonal periodic cap.  It would be post-paid product and bill you for single trips at either peak or offpeak depending on travel. BUT, it would look at the total amount you've spent each month and give you a rebate. The rebate is the "free" value of the cap that you chose the month prior. Easy, that way commuters, part time working mums, students, PT devotees who either travel across a couple or many zones, can all be treated equally.

This option of a value based monthly cap would be a post paid choice. The alternative choice would be a prepaid option that just calculates singles (and may have some form of daily cap, albeit higher than the current "return" style daily).

Its really really simple and I would love to convert all the people who want flat zone based caps to this idea.  Why? Well the way tramtrain identifies, it more closely resembles user pays, but it also rewards higher travellers, it encourages a sounder financial base for PT services and it covers all sorts of passengers. It also offers people the flexibility to make journeys outside their standard zones without requiring the travelcard/periodic ticket to be "extended" by a credit component on the Go card.

This would make almost 99% of the programming required to be on the customer billing side and not the Go card technical side.  The billing software could probably be bought off the shelf from any of the telecoms out there, as it would simply require a monthly bill with each journey to be produced and emailed (or mailed) with the total spend minus the rebate dependant on the cap chosen the previous month.

For a customer side perspective refer to my one page overview at http://www.scribd.com/doc/21417930/Translink-Go-Card-Cap-Idea-for-South-East-Queensland

[ozbob]

Another attractive option for sure Dwb.  My mobile phone works like that.   Is it too radical for TransLink and the boffins at QT?    It could be contingent on having a valid credit card account but that is a minor consideration.

All good.

[ozbob]

Dwb,  I wondered what happened to this survey?

Media Release 18 November 2008

SEQ:  Go card new fare option survey strongly supported!

RAIL Back On Track (http://backontrack.org) a web based community support group for rail and public transport and an advocate for public transport commuters has welcomed the survey on some possible new fare structures for the Go card.  Public transport commuters everywhere have consistently highlighted the need for fair and equitable fares for all and cost incentives to drive Go card up take (1).

Robert Dow, Spokesman for RAIL Back On Track said:

"The Go card is generally very convenient and promises much for the improved efficiency of public transport on the TransLink network if there is a high uptake."

"The go card education and awareness campaign announced last weekend by Minister Mickel is very welcome. We have previously suggested that such a campaign is needed."

"The fare options canvassed in the survey (2) will be a huge leap forward for the Go card if implemented."

"Our only concerns are that the weekly/monthly caps may not be offered as concession fares.  This could be very discriminatory to full time students and for example, retired pensioners and others who do volunteer work and use public transport daily, and the need for some consideration be given to off peak discounts on all plans to help ease peak congestion."

"RAIL Back On Track would also like to see the opportunity given to all public transport commuters to comment on the various new Go card fare options."

"We would however like to congratulate the TransLink Transit Authority for moving forward with improved fare structures for the Go card."

"It is time to Go!"

References:

1.  http://backontrack.org/mbs/index.php?topic=429.0

2.  The fare options in the survey summarised are:

a.  Pre-pay saver.  Buy travel in $15 blocks of travel.  All trips 20% discount, credit can be used for any journey and does not expire.  It doesn't say explicitly but we assume concessions fares would be available on this fare.

b.  Any zone weekly. You nominate the number of zones you wish to take your first ten trips, travel outside your nominated zones will have an excess fare.  Once you have made ten trips in the week using the go card further travel in the remainder of the week is free without restriction across all zones 1 to 23.  Off peak and concessions not available.

c.  Any zone capped value plans.  This one you nominate the number of zones you intend to travel in for the week or month.  However the number of journeys you make during the week or month is capped to the value of the plan.  For a zone 3 you pay$27 and you get $41 travel worth for example.  The plan expires at the end of the week/month whether the money is used or not.  Travel outside your nominated zones would be additional. No off peak or concession.

d.  Nominated zones unlimited travel.  This option nominate your normal zones for the week/month.  The number of journeys in the zones nominated is unlimited.  End of each week/month purchase another plan as required.  Travel outside the nominated zones not included and would be paid separately.  No off peak or concession.

Contact:

Robert Dow
Administration
admin@backontrack.org

[#Metro]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21417930/Translink-Go-Card-Cap-Idea-for-South-East-Queensland

Oh, I love it! Fantastic! No need to think about zones.
I think this will be very popular indeed as many people are already familiar with the idea from mobile phones.

This is definitely an election vote winner- which party is going to get the idea first?!

[Jon Bryant]

I think the Value Cap is great.  Like my phone I could also get an e-mail showing my regular useage and a recommednation of which plan might be better to move to next month. No free or pay by installment phones to worry about either.

Just to add weight to the whole campaign.  I notice that the Minister keeps refering to the 50% recovery for roads.  Recent analysis by our Melbourne counterparts PUTA shows this is really 30%.

The tables below outline just those costs of car use that can be quantified in dollar figures, and the total revenue collected from Australian motorists each year. See the Appendix for more detail on how these figures are obtained.
Annual costs of car use in Australia
Item                                            $million

Road construction and maintenance   9,000
Land use cost                                6,000
Road trauma                                 17,300
Noise                                               700
Urban air pollution                           4,300
Climate change                               2,900
Tax concessions for car use              5,800
State fuel subsidies                            600
Total                                           46,600

Annual revenue collected from Australian motorists
Item                                                    $million
Road Deficit                                          15,700
Petrol and diesel excise (net of rebates)      9,900
GST on fuel and vehicles                           4,000
Vehicle registration fees                            3,500
Insurance premiums                                10,400
Tolls                                                        800
Other revenue                                         2,300
Total                                                    30,900

Sources: Bureau of Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Economics, Transport Statistics, various years; Public road-related expenditure and revenue in Australia (2008 update); Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Australian Transport, 2005. Connelly et al, The economic costs of road traffic crashes: Australia, states and territories. (Accident Analysis and Prevention, 2006.) Bus Industry Confederation, submission to the National Fuel Tax Enquiry, 2001. Australian Tax Office, Taxation Statistics, various years. Australian Prudential Regulatory Authority, Half Yearly General Insurance Bulletin, June 2005. Laird et al, Back on Track, UNSW Press, 2001. Queensland Budget Papers, 2005-06. PTUA calculations (see Appendix).

Further they highlight the falseness of the myth that public transport is more expensive than car travel.  

Sydney is far from world's best practice in public transport. But even there, a 2009 study by the University of Technology (UTS) found that of all modes of transport, trains had the lowest overall economic cost at 47? per passenger kilometre, compared with 57? for buses and 86? for cars. The common perception that public transport is subsidised to a greater level than cars was found to be contradicted by the evidence.

Often Treasury just looks at it in terms of big dollops of dollars for infrastructure that you need for rail systems rather than looking at the long-term costs. I think we've built our city around the car to some extent and I think it's going to take a while to move away from it.
---Study author Garry Glazebrook, Sydney Morning Herald, 17 March 2009

So not only are roads and public transport subsidised similarly BUT public transport provides 35%-45% better value for each $ of subsidy.  It is time for our Transport Ministers and her Department to start reading the reasearch and stats that are openly published and not believe in their own blinkered view.

Reference 1 - http://www.ptua.org.au/myths/petroltax.shtml

Reference 2 - http://www.ptua.org.au/myths/runcost.shtml

[#Metro]

I would like the minister to reveal the unit costs for roads and all BNE PT services, and bikeways including a breakdown.

It was said that for every dollar spent on a road, half a dollar (in benefits? cash?) comes back (to who? The gov? People?). This is basic information that should be easy to access in the public domain.

I would like to know also how much variance there is in this. Some roads might be lower than 0.5, while others might be over 1, depending on the location and role it may play.

[ozbob]

Found this:  http://www.youtube.com/user/QUTNews#p/u/32/I8lmaad4qok

[dwb]

valid credit card account but that is a minor consideration.

Yes Bob this is true, and would more so be an issue with students or perhaps pensions. There is the option of direct debit (from savings) however, and the credit exposure of Translink would be very limited, ie one-two month's travel before the card is "frozen" until payment.

The other benefit is that it is more or less a "fixed" cost... unless you exceed your included credit. But if the tag off indicated how much your bill was, every trip you could keep an eye on this and not be hit with an over limit bill... like the telephone companies try to trick you into, by hiding how much you've spent until you exceed your cap.

[dwb]

@ozbob

Dwb,  I wondered what happened to this survey?

2.  The fare options in the survey summarised are:

a.  Pre-pay saver.  Buy travel in $15 blocks of travel.  All trips 20% discount, credit can be used for any journey and does not expire.  It doesn't say explicitly but we assume concessions fares would be available on this fare.

b.  Any zone weekly. You nominate the number of zones you wish to take your first ten trips, travel outside your nominated zones will have an excess fare.  Once you have made ten trips in the week using the go card further travel in the remainder of the week is free without restriction across all zones 1 to 23.  Off peak and concessions not available.

c.  Any zone capped value plans.  This one you nominate the number of zones you intend to travel in for the week or month.  However the number of journeys you make during the week or month is capped to the value of the plan.  For a zone 3 you pay$27 and you get $41 travel worth for example.  The plan expires at the end of the week/month whether the money is used or not.  Travel outside your nominated zones would be additional. No off peak or concession.

d.  Nominated zones unlimited travel.  This option nominate your normal zones for the week/month.  The number of journeys in the zones nominated is unlimited.  End of each week/month purchase another plan as required.  Travel outside the nominated zones not included and would be paid separately.  No off peak or concession.

yes Bob I wonder too, however I was extremely disappointed at the time that each of the options required you to nominate the zones in advance, I think what would be better is nominating the VALUE in advance, across the system

Also, if you think about the way Three (telecom) is currently advertising their caps, they include different kind of credit, so for instance if you did the numbers right a Go card value based monthly cap might give you a certain discount on train, bus & ferry, but then also include a taxi "bonus".  Although this is perhaps more radical, I think in the long run it is extremely important that you can pay for your cabfare (calculated as it is now) by Go card credit.

Has anyone done any Right to Information requests?? I'd sent email enquiries to DTMR and TTA the week before their announcement, but haven't actually lodged the applications yet. My thoughts are that I shouldn't have to pay for information that they, under their own legislation, should be ACTIVELY releasing!

I find it hard to believe that the only RTI that TTA has received that has "broader public benefit" is this one here:
http://www.translink.com.au/disclosurelog.php

[ozbob]

Some feedback received, thanks!

I am sure you are trying really hard to help people through this change. I am a carer receiving carer allowance this means i do not get a concession card. So a trip that previously cost me $5.10 will now possibly cost $14.00 dollars using a go card. I will not travel on public transport if it costs me this much and others by the look of the courier mail comments will be getting back into cars and fare evading.

Why didn't translink go for a more complex ticketing system which would recognize the off peak fare strategy. One bus driver told my brother that they went for the cheapest system. It is great to have a more efficient system but at what cost to peoples freedom. I needed to travel for my daughters needs but i will have to reconsider every trip. I simply dont have the time to question each trip on the go card that registers as incorrect. If you contact translink they just send back an automated general response after previously telling me that go cards were not compulsory.

Brisbane is growing in population but when i travel there is the time to buy a paper ticket i dont see the problem in continuing to sell them. What about people who vollunteer they will hesitate if they have to fork out twice the price to help people in need. I know i am going on but these are worthwhile considerations.