New fare strategy - articles and discussion

[somebody]

^ What?  Busways & Airtrain predate Translink mk1!

[ozbob]

TransLink --> Fare relief to ease the cost of living

[dwb]

appalling record on affordability, reliability and patronage

I am actually a bit appalled by this. This is not the case at all.

- Patronage went up, MASSIVELY. This was because TransLink was introduced and integrated fares and ticketing came into existence. Fares actually went down a lot in 2004 when integration occurred. I certainly was paying less in both time and money.

- Funding for BCC buses and the BUZ program. Although a BCC idea, the State paid for the buses and for the drivers' wages.

- Busways. There were no busways in 2000. Now busways carry ~ 50 million people per year, that's quite an achievement in a decade.

- Kippa Ring Rail, Springfield Rail, duplications on the Beenleigh line and station renewal

- Airtrain introduced

The list goes on. Yes fares went up, but we have had seen massive growth in patronage and those funds fund new services. It is the recalcitrance and reluctance to CUT LEGACY ROUTING and resistance to feed trains (invisible anti-bus forcefields appear to operate at many train stations) and put the foot down and fix up the bus network, particularly within the BCC area, which has led to a triad of high fares, high subsidy and low frequency. There are so many things that can be fixed up in Brisbane - from re-routing 235 and 230 to go down Oxford street, fixing up the GCL etc...

Reliability is in part, particularly on buses, due to the removal of bus priority, ESPECIALLY ON CORONATION DRIVE.

The LNP has a lot to live up to.

hear hear john!

[dwb]

^ What?  Busways & Airtrain predate Translink mk1!

True busways actually started from BCC much earlier and got real traction ~1997 with IRTP... Gabba section opened in 2000 I think, and Airtrain contract was developed and signed pre-1996 and opened 2001...

[Mr X]

That never stopped Beattie taking credit.

[colinw]

Busways and Airtrain were both Goss Government era initiatives that spanned the brief Borbidge Government and opened early in Beattie's time.

In the case of the busway, it was already under construction when Borbidge took power in 1996. In the case of airtrain the proposal for the line was under Goss, but it reached financial close and contract signing under Borbidge.

Beattie did SFA for either, other than take credit at the ribbon cutting.

[kazzac]

TransLink --> Fare relief to ease the cost of living

"Travel offpeak"?Most of us are unable to do that everyday,have to travel in peak times!

[HappyTrainGuy]

TransLink --> Fare relief to ease the cost of living

"Travel offpeak"?Most of us are unable to do that everyday,have to travel in peak times!

I can't even get a good bus in peak hour let alone trying off peak 

[SurfRail]

TransLink --> Fare relief to ease the cost of living

"Travel offpeak"?Most of us are unable to do that everyday,have to travel in peak times!

Why would people be offered discounts to travel at the busiest time of the day when services are full!

I'm also not confident that "most" people travel in the peak.  It is the busiest time, but by no means the only time when services are busy.

[ozbob]

From the Brisbane mX 11th May 2012 page 2

Freebies to  ease pain

[kazzac]

TransLink --> Fare relief to ease the cost of living

I'll save $3.58 a week then if I'm using PT 5 days a week, next week I have a car for 3 days ,NO PT, HOORAY!

[Fares_Fair]

I'll save over $616 per year (48 weeks).
Great to have this implemented, and it's appreciated.

Sunshine Coast infrastructure constraints is the elephant in the NCL room.

[somebody]

That's a fair bit of money it costs then.

How's it compare to driving?  I presume that you have done these sums.

[Fares_Fair]

I have done the sums, petrol cost alone it is certainly cheaper to drive (many just look at that obvious cost and ignore the rest), but once you add on registration, insurance, licence cost, maintenance and servicing and parking costs it tips the balance toward PT.
This assumption of course is for a single occupant.

Compare it to a family of 4 or more and the car wins out hands down.
That's where PT really falls over.
Way too expensive for families.


I heard there was a story in today's Sunshine Coast Daily on this.
Didn't get to see it as I had soccer all day.

[ozbob]

From the Bayside Bulletin click here!

Redland commuters bitter over Translink

Redland commuters bitter over Translink
JUDITH KERR
14 May, 2012 12:00 AM

REDLAND public transport users are unimpressed with a raft of incentives for Translink users announced by the state government on Friday.

Bay island residents are angry ferry services to the islands are not part of the Translink system and therefore do not qualify for any of the discounts under the LNP incentive package.

Mainland commuters from Redlands believe any gains from the package will be wiped out with planned 7.5 per cent fare increases in January.

The incentives include free travel after nine paid journeys for go card users, starting on Monday, June 25, and halving planned fare hikes of 15 per cent on January 1. The nine-journey package is bettering the previous government's 10-journey incentive.

Other discounts already on offer include a 20 per cent discount to go card users during non-peak times and a two-journey cap on fares for pensioner and senior card holders.

Russell Island's Cathy Nankervis said southern bay island residents would not get any of the incentives as island ferries were not on the Translink network.

"We pay $8.90 for a one-way trip from Russell Island to Redland Bay which is the same distance as two Translink zones, so if we were part of Translink we would pay $3.58," Mrs Nankervis said.

"The buses and ferries would also be coordinated and people could use a go card to buy ferry tickets in transit instead of having to do that at the ticket booth at the jetty," she said.

On Friday, Transport Minister Scott Emerson and Cleveland MP Mark Robinson said they were both committed to discussing whether it was possible to extend the Translink system to the islands.

Mr Emerson said the incentives came after customer satisfaction plummeted to an all-time low of 45 per cent satisfaction and affordability fell from 53 per cent to 51 per cent between January and March.

Birkdale commuter Ted Kos, who travels to work in Brisbane every day, said he was happy with the nine-journey incentive but believed the benefits would be "neutralised" when fares went up 7.5 per cent in January.

[somebody]

Committed to discussing it, eh?

Of course it's possible.  The question is whether or not it is a good policy to give an incentive to live in such isolated locations.

[Gazza]

Indeed. Islands are difficult little locations to serve. Can't just run a bus there quickly...Ferries are slower, require more crew and take longer to turn around so they will inevitably have higher running costs.

[STB]

Costs of upgrading the ferry terminals for very limited gain I've heard on the grapevine has been one major drawback for giving the Islands the TransLink system.  And I still don't get why they believe there is no integration between ferry and bus, one look at the timetable shows that there is, apparently the bus operators can even radio the ferry operator if either one of them is running late.

That Ted Kos is a serial whinger, you'll see his name quite often when there are service changes, even if they benefit him.

[somebody]

That Ted Kos is a serial whinger, you'll see his name quite often when there are service changes, even if they benefit him.

Seems to be making a valid point in this case.  Why make it 9-then-free and then put up the fares?  Could just reduce fares and keep 10-then-free.  Which would increase patronage and cost recovery more?

[#Metro]

On Friday, Transport Minister Scott Emerson and Cleveland MP Mark Robinson said they were both committed to discussing whether it was possible to extend the Translink system to the islands.

Ha! If you decide to live in a low density area, on an ISLAND in the middle of the SEA to take advantage of the extremely low house prices there and then COMPLAIN that you have rubbish public transport then I find it hard to have sympathy for you.

GET REAL!!

The ferry is probably more frequent than what the people in Bulimba have along Riding and Thynne Roads.

[dwb]

That Ted Kos is a serial whinger, you'll see his name quite often when there are service changes, even if they benefit him.

Seems to be making a valid point in this case.  Why make it 9-then-free and then put up the fares?  Could just reduce fares and keep 10-then-free.  Which would increase patronage and cost recovery more?

Because inherently they know their populist policy has to be paid for somehow, especially if they plan to keep running such an inefficient network, especially in places like South East Busway at Cultural Centre.

[#Metro]

Seems to be making a valid point in this case.  Why make it 9-then-free and then put up the fares?  Could just reduce fares and keep 10-then-free.  Which would increase patronage and cost recovery more?

Why make it 9-then free? Because it is a SCAM and this is how scams work - you pay higher fares during the week and that pays for your extra feelgood free trip after 9 journeys.

Nothing has changed people!!

[STB]

So the old Weekly paper tickets were a scam?  Whereby you paid for 8 journeys and any other journey you did was free until the expiry date?

Also @TT the Bay Islands are in the BAY!  Moreton Bay IIRC.  The sea is that bit on the western end of North Stradbroke Island.

[SurfRail]

Also @TT the Bay Islands are in the BAY!  Moreton Bay IIRC.  The sea is that bit on the western end of North Stradbroke Island.

I'm with TT though.  Same underlying problem remains, no matter what it is called or where they are eg Monster Island is actually a peninsula.

I would support making go card available, however there has to be a pricing differential.  There's just no practical way around it. 

It would basically be the same as somebody from Robina asking for the same fare to the city as somebody travelling from Fairfield, except here there are not several entire trainloads of other paying passengers to assist with sharing the costs.

[STB]

Don't get me wrong, I do believe for several years now that the Islands should be included into the TL system.  Heck, my former supervisor said the same thing but had to tell people that it was a Government decision and not a TL decision.

[Golliwog]

I'm all for the ferry being included as part of the Translink fare system. But using the "the distance is the same as 2 zones so it would be cheaper" argument is crap. I expect that the existing fares do make it turn a profit, but I have no idea how much of one, but expecting it not to have to have government subsidy after you basically halve the ticket price is laughable.

[somebody]

So the old Weekly paper tickets were a scam?  Whereby you paid for 8 journeys and any other journey you did was free until the expiry date?

Not a scam, but an inefficiency, which was preferable to the inefficiency of having people needing to buy tickets every day.

[triplethree]

Don't get me wrong, I do believe for several years now that the Islands should be included into the TL system.  Heck, my former supervisor said the same thing but had to tell people that it was a Government decision and not a TL decision.

I had a Eureka moment a few nights ago ... a solution that will bring the Bay Islands into the TransLink integrated transport sytem but which recognises that providing ferry services to low-population density far-flung islands is expensive, and will earn almost as much fare revenue as is currently the case.

There's no law that says that TransLink fare zones have to be a certain distance wide, right? Well, how about we put Macleay, Russell, Lamb and Karragarra Islands in Zone 14?

This will mean that a Bay Islands Transit System ferry trip from Redland Bay to the islands will be an 8-zone trip (from Zone 7 to Zone 14). But an inter-island trip will be just one zone.

Here's a comparison of current fares, and fares under my solution:

Redland Bay to Islands
Current fares: One way: $8.80; 10-trip ticket: $7.20 per trip; 40-trip ticket: $6.80 per trip
Proposed fares: One way paper ticket: $10.40; Go Card: $7.15; Go Card off-peak: $5.72

Inter-Island trips
Current fares: One way: $3.00; 10-trip ticket: $2.00 per trip
Proposed fares: One way paper ticket: $4.50; Go Card: $3.05; Go Card off-peak: $2.44

Of course, this solution won't satisfy those who desire the islands to be placed in Zone 8 based on similar distances between zones on the mainland. But ferries are expensive little buggers to run, and the population density on the islands simply isn't there to generate the ridership that will allow a reasonable fare recovery ratio if you make it only a two-zone journey.

So, ferry trips won't be much cheaper than they are currently. But ... fares will now be integrated. You'll be able to go from Macleay Island to Redland Bay then catch a 250 to Victoria Point to do some shopping, or Cleveland Hospital to attend a medical appointment, or Victoria Point State High School to attend classes, all on the one fare. This is where island residents will definitely save money because they'll no longer have to buy two separate fares. But we no longer penalise people for changing from a CityCat to the 199, or changing from a bus to a train. Why should Bay Islands residents be penalised?

[somebody]

^ I've thought the same thing, but I doubt such a thing would survive political interference.

[Stillwater]

It is a brilliant and elegant solution and one worthy of support.  It has mine.

[#Metro]

Support this one. Consider writing a MR please.

[SurfRail]

It's a good call I think. 

At that rate it should also be possible to do the same for the NSI and Coochiemudlo ferries and get the NSI bus operator on the SEQ fare scale instead of having their service administered through qconnect/TMR.  Obviously the fare would need to broadly commensurate with whatever the operator is charging for each service now, so pick the appropriate fare zone (or create "Zone 24" if necessary). 

For the vehicle ferries, people just pay for their vehicle separately and directly to the operator.

And if they can do this, look at integrating other nearby services which connect to TransLink contract routes, eg:

- The Christensens bus service from Caboolture to Kilcoy (which I understand is numbered the 895)
- The Sunshine Coast hinterland services between  Nambour, Maleny, Landsborough and Beerwah
- The Monday-Friday Brisbane Bus Lines route which goes between Dayboro and Petrie/Strathpine

[Arnz]

If I do recall from my sources, the Sunshine Coast Bus Contract is up for tender this year. 

I don't think the QConnect hinterland runs are included, but personally I would've included those routes in the package.

[Stillwater]

Yes, that makes good sense.  The only thing is that the folk up on the Range are an independent bunch.  They have their own credit union and food co-op etc, so they may have an intense 'ownership' of the hinterland bus brand and would regard any incorporation as a community loss.  Remember how hard they fought against a Woolworths 'takeover'?

[Golliwog]

Something like this (making the number of zones large to make the fare roughly what it is now) is a good idea. However, my one question is if Translink will end up worse off in some circumstances? Currently, the only real way to do long distance trips is via rail so I would expect the higher zone fares reflect the rail costs. However, if you chuck these island out into zone 14, then theoretically, a person could then after catching the ferry travel down to the Gold Coast, for almost nil extra cost. Seeing as the $8 (or whatever it is) they would be charged for the ferry would be covering the ferry operator's costs, how would that effect their overall revenue?

For the record, I don't expect there to be any large number of people doing such trips. As it is now, I'm surprised there's people who live out there who commute to Brisbane, let along the Gold Coast.

[triplethree]

However, if you chuck these island out into zone 14, then theoretically, a person could then after catching the ferry travel down to the Gold Coast, for almost nil extra cost. Seeing as the $8 (or whatever it is) they would be charged for the ferry would be covering the ferry operator's costs, how would that effect their overall revenue?

For the record, I don't expect there to be any large number of people doing such trips. As it is now, I'm surprised there's people who live out there who commute to Brisbane, let along the Gold Coast.

It's a similar dilemma to what happens now, where a passenger travelling from Nambour (Zone 17) to Currumbin (Zone 17) pays only for Zones 1 to 17, the same as if they were just travelling to Brisbane. I don't know how you'd fix it without radically altering the existing fare structure to the detriment of people whose travel path takes them through the CBD.

By the way, connections between Redland City and the Beenleigh/Gold Coast line are so lacking, that your hypothetical Bay Islands-to-Gold Coast traveller would most likely choose to catch the 250 all the way from the Redland Bay ferry terminal to South Bank (Zone 1) or the 250 to Cleveland and a Cleveland Line train to Park Road (Zone 2) to change to a Gold Coast Line service! So they'd pay around $3 to $4 on top of the eight-zone ferry fare to get to northern Gold Coast.

[Stillwater]

If the bay islands were made 'Zone 24', where fares would be less than Zone 23 (considerably less), how could fares for that zome be configured to give Zone 24 uses a better deal without the anomolies mentioned above? 

[Golliwog]

While it's not a brilliant solution (and I'm not sure if it could even work with the software), it might just be more practical to put any island PT routes as part of the Translink zone system rather than qconnect, and put the ferry in as well, but have it as a 'fixed fare' trip. Ie: it just charges the $8 fare, but does so using go card so people don't have to worry about having money for all the different fares. The islands could be set as the same zone as the mainland ferry terminals, so continuation fares would apply?

[Gazza]

Another way to do it could be to just treat it like Airtrain, and set its own fares. Still has GoCard compatibility.

[justanotheruser]

So, ferry trips won't be much cheaper than they are currently. But ... fares will now be integrated. You'll be able to go from Macleay Island to Redland Bay then catch a 250 to Victoria Point to do some shopping, or Cleveland Hospital to attend a medical appointment, or Victoria Point State High School to attend classes, all on the one fare. This is where island residents will definitely save money because they'll no longer have to buy two separate fares. But we no longer penalise people for changing from a CityCat to the 199, or changing from a bus to a train. Why should Bay Islands residents be penalised?

Well just one question if I may. Does the current fare structure reflect the increased running costs for the city cats? Sure there would be greater numbers using them but costs are still higher aren't they? I'm just thinking if they don't (which considering only two zones in total on city cats) then it is not reasonable to have island ferries reflecting the cost. Perhaps making it zone 10 or 11 instead?