Article: Debate rages over Beaudesert rail service

[somebody]

I understand with telescoping pantographs double stacking can go along with electrification.  But how serious is the possibility of double stacking anyway?  I can't see it in the next 2 decades.

[mufreight]

With the amount of money that has already been spent to make provision for the operation of double stacked container trains on the line between Maitland and Acacia Ridge ten years will be a rather generous estimate.
The inland rail link when built is to cater for double stacking and it will join the existing standard gauge now becoming dual gauge line at a point between Bromelton and Kagaru.
As for telescoping pantographs they are a less than practical option which would require considerable retrofitting of existing rollingstock.

[somebody]

What's the point if it only goes to Maitland?  Is there a yard to be built there, with trucking out of the Sydney curfew or something?  That doesn't sound like a bad idea actually, but why not nearer Newcastle?

Retrofitting existing rollingstock may be difficult, but you could make new builds cater for it, couldn't you?

[ghostryder]

I live in the Coffs Harbour area of the NSW North Coast line and there are several items that would Prevent double stacking without some serious cash thrown at them.

Repton Tunnel
Red Hill number 1
Red Hill number 2
Red Hill number 3
Red Hill number 4
Red Hill number 5

add to that there are several road bridges that would require raising or the rail bed lowered.  And several water course bridges that would need rebuilding to allow better clearnaces.

cheers

scott

[mufreight]

What's the point if it only goes to Maitland?  Is there a yard to be built there, with trucking out of the Sydney curfew or something?  That doesn't sound like a bad idea actually, but why not nearer Newcastle?

Retrofitting existing rollingstock may be difficult, but you could make new builds cater for it, couldn't you?

Apparently ARTC is planing an independent freight line north from Chulora similar to the freight line to the south presently under construction, these lines are not electrified and are being constructed to allow for double stacking.
The line in the Coffs Harbour area will in time see a deviation with the tunnels on the new faster and shorter alignment again making provision for the increased height of double stack operation, it will not happen overnight but to construct infrastructure that would render future operation of double stacking with its environmental and operating cost benefits having already expended considerable funds investing for the future would be absolute stupidity.


Fitting the proposed extra height pantographs raises a number of problems as the bows on the pantographs would need to be wider to allow for the increased lateral oscillation due to the increased height, the problem here is that the existing structure gauge for the rest of the system would not allow for wider pantographs without spending hundreds of millions to rebuild the infrastructure to enable their operation.
A far more effective and less costly option is to construct a NG electrified line in the SG corridor alongside the existing SG line there would then be no conflict between NG electrified passenger services and the predominately freight operations over the non electrified and full clerance height dual gauge which would cater for the operation of double stacked container services and also Hi cube vans as operated by SCT on their current east west services.

[somebody]

I think you are probably right.  While telescoping pantos may work ok on SG, the instability of NG makes the lateral oscillation a big deal.  The problem is the third rail is already being laid.  A dual track electrified NG corridor would be real nice, but not likely.  Perhaps an NG DMU may be a possibility, although I'm not too sure about running that through the tunnels between Roma St and Fortitude Valley.

[mufreight]

They managed to operate steam then later diesels through the tunnels so DMU's pose no insurmountable problems.
From an operating perspective a seperate electrified pasenger line is the logical answer but this current government has proven itself to be less than logical.

[somebody]

Apparently ARTC is planing an independent freight line north from Chulora similar to the freight line to the south presently under construction, these lines are not electrified and are being constructed to allow for double stacking.

I see this as an ARTC trainspotter fantasy.  I really can't see how they are going to do it without tunnelling virtually the entire way from Homebush to Mt Colah.  And that would be cost prohibitive.  The only feasible upgrades I see are completing the quadding West Ryde-North Strathfield and abolishing the curfew north of Strathfield.  The bit between Hornsby and Epping only sees 4tph all stops and 1-4tph express even in peak.  The politics would be troublesome.

[mufreight]

Might I suggest that a new pair of glasses to view this as planning for an independent freight line mostly following the existing alignment has been undertaken with work at present actualy underway as far as Cowan (the reconstruction of Hoensby to provide additional tracks through that station)

This work is being undertaken by ARTC.

[somebody]

Looking up Cowan on Google Maps, seems that there is a long loop ~3000m there.  I would presume this is to allow two 1500m freighters to refuge.

As for Hornsby, I understood they were going to build a 5th platform, which I didn't completely understand the need for, but as a passenger train project.  Are you telling me this is in fact an ARTC project?

[tomato]

The project you are discussing is termed  Northern Sydney Freight Corridor Program to be constructed by TIDC  ...Transport Infrastructure Development Corptn

http://www.tidc.nsw.gov.au/Our-Projects/Current-Projects/Northern-Sydney-Freight-Corridor-Program/default.aspx

Next best place to pick up some tips as to what is involved .......& some opinions.....
http://railbastard.freeforums.org/northern-sydney-freight-corridor-program-t1962.html

[tomato]

Hon Rachel Nolan MP
Member for Ipswich

Our ref: MC47802                                                Minister for Transport
Your ref: Petitions

16 APR 2010
Mr Neil Laurie
Clerk of the Parliament
Parliament House
Cnr Alice and George Street
Brisbane Qld 4000

Dear Mr Laurie  Neil

I refer to a petition number 1285-09 lodged with the Legislative Assembly by Mr Aidan McLindon MP, Member for Beaudesert, on 23 February 2010, about a proposal to run Diesel Multiple Units on peak services to reduce congestion.

The TransLink Transit Authority reviewed the proposal to operate passenger rail line services on
the interstate line from Beaudesert, and has considered the operation not viable at this time for the
following reasons:

• The existing interstate line is not suitable for operating suburban passenger trains due to differences in track widths and non-electrification. A Citytrain service on the interstate line would require new trains to be purchased or leased to operate the service.

• The option of utilising diesel-powered trains would require significant infrastructure investment, such as platforms, passing loops and signals before the interstate rail line could be used for passenger services. The cost of this infrastructure is likely to be prohibitively expensive, and would not be re-usable for the dedicated narrow-gauge passenger rail.
There would need to be stabling, maintenance, fuelling and servicing infrastructure, along with crew facilities to support such as service.

• Under Commonwealth legislation, there is a requirement that all new public transport infrastructure be compliant under the Disability Discrimination Act 1992. The provision of stations for this proposal, at possibly five locations, would cost in the vicinity of $150 million. The implementation of stations would also possibly require numerous resumptions.

• Finally, the current patronage on the bus service from Beaudesert does not warrant the addition of a rail service. Beaudesert is serviced by the 540 bus route, with three inbound and three outbound services daily between Brisbane City and Beaudesert. On average, the three inbound services pick up 32 passengers between Beaudesert and Jimboomba.
Therefore, Beaudesert and the surrounding areas simply do not have the density to warrant a dedicated rail service.

The current level of patronage on the bus services from Beaudesert does not support the transition to a rail service at this time. As the Beaudesert region continues to grow, the transport network in the region will be expanded to meet changing needs.

As part of this long-term planning, in May 2009, the Department of Transport and Main Roads released the Mt Lindsey-Beaudesert Strategic Transport Investigation Report for public consultation. One of the key recommendations of the report is the `future investigation' of a passenger rail line between Salisbury and Beaudesert.

This investigation will commence in the near future and it is envisaged that the Salisbury to Beaudesert commuter line will be an electrified system, as an extension to the existing Citytrain network. Please visit the project website at www.mtlindesaybeaudeserttransportstudy.com.au for more information.

I trust this information is of assistance.

Yours sincerely,

RACHEL NOLAN MP
Minister for Transport

http://www.parliament.qld.gov.au/view/EPetitions_qld/Responses/1285-09.pdf

courtesy of  LadyGuard....http://www.wheelsonsteel.com.au/index.php?topic=3676.0

[#Metro]

But if you move a kilometer or so to the south, there is Sunnybank where there is so much demand you it would easily warrant 4 trains during peak hour, 30 min trains at other times. Buses are full and there is so much demand that buses go past Altandi station every 90 seconds in peak hour.

A "browns plains" line could also in the future connect to the corridor and go to Beaudesert.

[Jon Bryant]

The Minister clearly thinks that PT is a demand problem not a supply problem.  Until there is a paradigm shift in thinking our PT will remain a community service not a transit system.  Provide a crap service so no one cat he's it then claim there is no demand but 'hello' there is massive demand for driving.  Sheer negligence in my book.

[ozbob]

Minister for Transport
The Honourable Rachel Nolan
02/09/2010

Have your say on future Beaudesert passenger rail line

A new double-track passenger rail line from Salisbury to Beaudesert is being investigated by the Bligh Government.

Transport Minister Rachel Nolan said the Salisbury to Beaudesert Rail Corridor Study would plan a future passenger rail line to service areas where more people will live and work in the future.

"The proposed dedicated passenger rail line would generally follow the route of the existing interstate freight rail line down to Flagstone before connecting across to Beaudesert," Ms Nolan said.

"Our current planning tells us this future passenger rail line would need to be built after 2026 to accommodate population growth but it makes good sense to plan now.

"Population growth is one of the key challenges facing south east Queensland and by planning ahead, we will be well placed to manage this future growth.

"Community feedback is an important part of the study so I encourage everyone to have their say on the planning done so far."

Work to date on the study has identified a proposed rail alignment and station locations.

Local MPs Karen Struthers (Algester), John Mickel (Logan) and Judy Spence (Sunnybank) welcomed the study saying the line would have lifestyle and economic benefits for the area.

"The proposed passenger rail line would change the way residents move to, from and around the area," Ms Struthers said.

"It would boost long-term economic growth in the area by better connecting people to goods, services, jobs and facilities.

"In addition, the line will help to take pressure off Beaudesert Road and Mt Lindesay Highway."

Ms Nolan said a review of environmental factors, which includes the proposed rail alignment and station locations, is now available for the community to provide their feedback on.

"This is about our future and the way we will live and travel so it's important people have a say on the proposed alignment and the proposed stations so feedback can be included in the draft impact assessment report," she said.

"The community will have another opportunity to tell us what they think when the draft impact assessment report is released for public consultation later this year."

The review of environmental factors can be viewed and downloaded at www.transport.qld.gov.au/salisburytobeaudesert.

Public consultation on the draft alignment for the Salisbury to Beaudesert Rail Corridor Study will commence from 27 September to 29 October 2010.

Community information displays will be held to give the community the opportunity to speak directly with the study team and ask questions.

A list of the public information sessions including dates, times and locations is available on the website at www.transport.qld.gov.au/salisburytobeaudesert and through the public hotline 1800 239 365.


==============================================================

[O_128]

wow at least they are setting an alignment.

[#Metro]

I thought they had already did the plan?  

Now I have to eat humble pie here because it is going down the 'somebody' corridor.  

Because the stations are going to be quite far from the main corridors, bus-rail interchanges must go in at each and every station without exception like the Mandurah line in Perth has. Feeder buses must go to each station to meet every train. Station spacing should be large to allow high speed operation like on the Gold Coast line.

The project could be done in stages. I don't agree with the "it probably won't be needed" for a while- services could go to Algester and Johnstone Road/Hillcrest and get excellent loadings under a feeder bus-to-rail operation. There are so many bus services (150 series, 130 series, 140 series) in this area which demonstrate the high demand for PT. The rail line would take pressure off the bus services and the busway.

Again the   CRR1 tunnel is absolutely critical for this to work.

[somebody]

Not really my corridor.  Many have put forward this corridor for a number of reasons, but most importantly the construction costs are more reasonable than most.

[mufreight]

So now we build infrastructure for which there is no immediate need rather than completing projects for which there is an immediate and pressing need simply because they will cost less.
Sounds like more typical Queensland Government thinking on the basis of lets do something so we can be seen to be doing something rather than build infrastructure because it is actually needed now.
The money supply is not bottomless and while planning for twenty years time has merit it has no merit if the entire system collapses in the meantime because of the failure to meet present infrastructure needs.
The Government has a plan but has not provided a single cent of additional money for current infrastructure needs or to meet its plan. 
Fixing what we have now should be the priority before further Redcliffe 103 year proposals which still has neither been started or even funded.

[#Metro]

Cross River Rail, must not fail!!!

[somebody]

mufreight, I don't think anyone said that this should be done before CRR1!

[colinw]

I would argue that there is an immediate need as far as Browns Plains / Greenbank, and will be a need as far as Flagstone if the proposed Springfield style development there goes ahead.  The existing population in the greater Browns Plains area is larger than Springfield is at present.

The final section, Flagstone to Beaudesert, will not be needed for 2-3 decades, but the time to secure the corridor is now.

I doubt anyone would say this should proceed before CRR1 or even Kippa-Ring.

cheers,
Colin

[#Metro]

I agree. There is demand in that corridor (up to Browns Plains) NOW. Feeder buses can ferry passengers into the rail corridor given that it is a bit further from the centre of the suburb.

Putting express rail in there will take pressure off the busway.

[shiftyphil]

The newly expanded GreenBank RSL Park and Ride was practically full this morning.

There is a supply issue, not a demand issue.

[#Metro]

100% agree. Build it and it will be full.

[somebody]

The 142 is a weird service.  Why's it pick up at so few stations rather than extend to locations which require an interchange now.

[colinw]

Suburbs that would be served by a line as far as Greenbank :-

Figures are 2006 census unless stated otherwise.

Acacia Ridge - 6,860
Algester - 7,368
Parkinson - 9,281
Pallara - 694 (rural residential acreage, potential for higher density redevelopment)
Forestdale - 7,857
Browns Plains - 5,680
Hillcrest - 4,608
Heritage Park - 4,559
Regents Park - 9,681
Boronia Heights - 7,491
Greenbank - 6,418

Total: 70,497

Other suburbs that are close by and would attract some patronage or could be served by feeder buses :-

Drewvale - 6,212
Calamvale - 10,973
Park Ridge - 2,012
Park Ridge South - 1,267
Munruben - 2,860
New Beith (Teviot Downs, Spring Mountain) - no figures available

Total: 23,324

This gives an estimated catchment on 2006 figures of around 93,821.

Adding in the unknown New Beith numbers, and potentially you might also pick up some patronage from the western parts of Sunnybank Hills, from Inala, and from places south on the Mt Lindesay Highway or Teviot Road (North Maclean, Flagstone, etc.), I'd estimate this line would serve about 100,000 people on 2006 census figures.  There has been rapid growth since then, e.g. New Beith now supports a shopping centre with a Woolworths where there was scrub in 2006.

This puts the line easily on a par with Springfield, possibly more deserving even.

2006 figures for Springfield line catchment :-

Springfield - 5,732
Springfield Lakes - 15,000
Forest Lake - 21,005
Ellen Grove - 351
Carole Park - 1,869

Total :- 43,957 (but clearly has grown significantly since 2006, probably > 60,000 by now, e.g. 2006 population of Augustine Heights was < 50, today it would be a couple of thousand).

cheers,
Colin

[somebody]

There's more growth down the Springfield way though.  Still, there's a good case for such a line as I see it.  But not for the SG DMU proposal.

[colinw]

I agree that the growth potential for Springfield on currently approved developments is greater, however there is a large existing population, a huge amount of land available down that way, so that when you throw in another Springfield at Flagstone the picture changes.

The way I see it is that in "Greater Brisbane" (not including Gold Coast or Sunshine Coast), this line should be priority #4 for new lines after CRR1, Springfield & Kippa-Ring (maybe #5 after Trouts Road?).  It plugs a gap in the system covering an area suffering from road & bus congestion, and the corridor is there already so why not use it?

I'd characterise the proposal as being at about the point now where the Springfield line was in 1994 when first mooted, with the difference that the base population to support it is actually there now.  By 2020 or so, there will be a clear case for building it, and CRR1 & upgrades to Salisbury will have created the capacity to actually handle the traffic it generates.  Until then, it needs to be put on the backburner but planning & acquisitions of land should proceed to secure the corridor.

The SG DMU idea is a non-starter.  It needs to be done properly, i.e. dual track, electrified, with dedicated freight capacity so there is no interference with the interstate line & future Bromelton intermodal facility.

cheers,
Colin

[#Metro]

100% agree with colinw.
If a train service went in, complete with feeder buses and stations, I would not be surprised if it would be full on day 1. The bus services overflowing and running at ridiculous frequencies a suburb or two over, show that this area has huge latent demand.

As of 2006, in the Browns Plains area, about 10% of people use PT to get to work. (ABS Statistics, Journey to Work). Of course, this could be an underestimate as there is no question dealing with non-work journeys and the data is from 2006; there have been PT improvements since then.

The other problem is PT use is dependent on service quality and frequency. So one suburb over in Calamvale, where they have access to the BUZ, its about 15%, in places like Sunnybank near the rail station it is something like 20%.

(FYI, In the area immediately around Ferny Grove station, PT travel to work is about 30% but quickly drops off to 20% as you get further away from the station (which is why feeder buses are so essential))

Census ---> Census data ---> 2006 Map Stats ---> (type in suburb and search)
abs.gov.au

[ozbob]

From The Reporter 8th September 2010 page 8

Proposed rail line welcomed

Proposed rail line welcomed

"I'VE been agitating for this for years." So says Cec France, about the proposed Salisbury to Beaudesert passenger rail line.

The Algester resident said the rail line was something which had to happen to help alleviate growing congestion problems on the Mt Lindesay Highway and Beaudesert Road.

"Beaudesert Road is jampacked," he said. "We have an excellent bus service (already), but by the time they get to Parkinson they're full."

A new double-track passenger rail line from Salisbury to Beaudesert is currently being investigated by the State Government. Transport Minister Rachel Nolan said the Salisbury to Beaudesert Rail Corridor Study would plan a future passenger rail line to service areas where more people will live and work in the future.

"The proposed dedicated passenger rail line would generally follow the route of the existing interstate freight rail line down to Flagstone before connecting across to Beaudesert," she said.

"Our current planning tells us this future passenger rail line would need to be built after 2026 to accommodate population growth, but it makes good sense to plan now.

"Population growth is one of the key challenges facing south-east Queensland and by planning ahead, we will be well placed to manage this future growth.

"Community feedback is an important part of the study so I encourage everyone to have their say on the planning done so far." Work to date on the study has identified a proposed rail alignment and station locations.

State Member for Algester, Karen Struthers, and Member for LoganJohn Mickel, welcomed the study, saying the line would have lifestyle and economic benefits for the area.

"The proposed passenger rail line would change the way residents move to, from and around the area," Ms Struthers said. "It would boost long-term economic growth in the area by better connecting people to goods, services, jobs and facilities.

"In addition, the line will help to take pressure off Beaudesert Road and Mt Lindesay Highway." Ms Struthers said the planning still had to happen, and residents needed to have their say about where the stations would be locatawned the possibility of a new OaryBeautleseri tail line ed.

Ms Nolan said a review of environmental factors, which included the proposed rail alignment and station locations, was now available for the community to provide their feedback on.

"This is about our future and the way we will live and travel so it's important people have a say on the proposed alignment and the proposed stations so feedback can be included in the draft impact assessment report," she said.

"The community will have another opportunity to tell us what they think when the draft impact assessment report is released for public consultation later this year."

The review of environmental factors can be viewed and downloaded at www.transportqld.gov.au/salisburytobeaudesert. Public consultation on the draft alignment for the Salisbury to Beaudesert Rail Corridor Study will begin on September 27, and will be open until October 29.

Community information displays will be held to give the community the opportunity to speak directly with the study team and ask questions. A list of the public information sessions including dates, times and locations is available on the website at www.transportqld.gov.au/salisburytobeaudesert and through the public hotline 1800 239 365.

Good thing we all persisted .... 

[#Metro]

"Our current planning tells us this future passenger rail line would need to be built after 2026 to accommodate population growth, but it makes good sense to plan now.

If this line opened tomorrow (not that it will) to Browns Plains/Johnstone road, it would be full from day #1.
The joining suburbs have rockets everywhere, some running every 5 minutes in peak hour, 3 BUZ routes (140/130/150) and
still have heaps of passengers and overcrowding.

This line is needed now, not in 2026.
(just like Kippa ring, Trouts Road, CAMCOS, CRR and the 1000 other things that have been sitting on the back burner for too long)

[Golliwog]

Yes it would most likely be full, but where would the trains go? Are you going to reduce the number of services on the Beenleigh line to fit these in over the Merivale bridge?

[ozbob]

Bit of imagination folks.

Fly over to access Tennyson line and onwards to town.  There is capacity.  I have sat at Sherwood and watched trains routed via Tennyson during problems between Yeerongpilly and town on the southern line.  I would not be surprised if some Gold Coast services eventually are routed this way at peaks.  Has been thought of before, and officially too.  The quad track to town on the western line is nothing like fully utilised.  Watch this space ...

[#Metro]

Yes, what is the capacity of the Ipswich line like?
This might be the stop-gap measure which will allow increased frequency while we wait for Cross River Rail.

I've read somewhere that there is a choke point between Milton and Roma Street where Ips. trains must merge. Any info on this?

[ozbob]

The whole CBD is a choke point.  But the actuality is still more services can be slotted in, 2016 is the estimate for max paths.  Also some novel ideas, perhaps terminate some trains platforms 2 and 3 Roma St. These platforms generally not well utilised.  

A real effort on broadening peaks is the go now.  Significant fare discounts,  together with better frequencies will drive that.  Some more employer/government  direction on flexible work hours, decentralisation efforts.  Better counter peaks.  All achievable.  Why not try???

With the present state of the system how will the punters like their 15% fare increase next January?  No much at all I would think, the way to go is offer a much more generous off peak discount, say 30% and ramp frequency.

[#Metro]

With the present state of the system how will the punters like their 15% fare increase next January?  No much at all I would think, the way to go is offer a much more generous off peak discount, say 30% and ramp frequency.

Yes, and I completely forgot about this! Isn't paper being abolished Janury 2011?
Time to remind TL/QR/QLD Gov not to repeat what happened last time!

Major service improvements must come in well BEFORE or at the same time as any price rises; None of this 301 000 'seat' business by july end of the year, or 66 not being extended, or free GoCards well after the boat has well and truly departed.  Otherwise commuters will be paying more and not getting more, and the Courier Mail will have a field day and all the good transport initiatives will be Ursula'd.

[Golliwog]

I would have htought the reason that when trains are routed via Tennyson when there are issues that they flow so well it because there are no (or very few) trains coming across the Merivale bridge, the quad tracks can be made full use of. Even with CRR, I think at some stage the tracks to the junction are going to have to be grade seperated in some way, or just have 6 tracks put in. The problem with 6 tracks is obviously how you can fit them in. Grade seperated is also an issue as you can't tunnel down as there is the inner northern busway and Cordelia street in the way (I believe the gradient would be too steep) and going over has the issue of 1: asthetics, but 2: theres the new-ish pedestrian bridge over the line just past the firestation there.

Using platforms 2 and 3 is a good idea, but IIRC to get to those you still need to use one of the 4 tracks. I don't think the number of platforms available at Roma St is the issue, it's the number of tracks coming into it that is the limiting factor.

[ozbob]

Brisbane is so reluctant to grasp the moment.  Look at Melbourne,  Richmond / Flinders St,  flyovers and positioning for the underground loop all done in a few hundreds of metres.  CRR southern portal can be achieved between Dutton Park and Park Road. Look at Sydney coming into Central.  Flyovers and tunnels, all seamless.  Time we moved forward in Brisbane town .. we do have some examples eg. FG and dual gauge line at Park Road.

[ozbob]

I would have htought the reason that when trains are routed via Tennyson when there are issues that they flow so well it because there are no (or very few) trains coming across the Merivale bridge

that too, but I was referring more to the idea of conflicts coming onto the western line from the Tennyson line.  In reality it works.  Been there at peaks, plenty of slots.  And it has been done at peak times.  Also down Ipswich services have been routed at peak onto Tennyson and thence to town via southern line as needed as well.