Level crossings and Grade separation - level crossing removal

[Derwan]

For the Shorncliffe line the only crossing I would add as a priority is the one at Banyo. But I think there crossings elsewhere on the network that would be a higher priority.

[HappyTrainGuy]

I think the Strathpine one remains due to the amount of businesses that would go under if it was closed. The Lawnton one should go, the maintenance costs saved could be used to compensate all of the shops (about 8 at a guess) that would be affected.

Strathpine remains as it is the only alternative. Without it the whole area gridlocks. The overpass was only meant for overheight trucks heading for the industrial estate as too many were rolling over on the Telegraph Road exit. Its also not the fastest route due to the multiple traffic light configuration, single lane road and single lane entries/exits. MBRC/QR have already planned to remove the Strathpine level crossing to build an overpass but at the same time rezoning the area (which includes waaayyy more than 8 business being removed from the area), moving the station north off the curve and creating a proper bus/train interchange. QR want to hold off until NWTC seems more possible and MBRC are on the hunt for funding.

[ozbob]

Twitter

Anthony Albanese ‏@AlboMP 4m

With @GrahamPerrettMP at Coopers Plains Crossing - identified by #RACQ as Brisbane's top priority

[Golliwog]

On the topic of the Ferny Grove Line..

Osborne Road, Blackwood St or Glenholm St?  Assuming that you would only build a single overpass and close the other crossings outright.  The more I look at it, the more I like Kedron Ave into McConaghy St.  Not a lot of neighbours on what would be the new main road,  plus the chance of putting the bus stop right on top of the station platforms while still close enough to Blackwood St to count, and most of the land where you would need resumptions for ramps etc is already in public ownership (as parks, schools and station property).

The other issue with closing Archdale is that it's one of 3 ways into/out of Ferny Grove/Upper Kedron towards the city (Tramway, Archdale and Upper Kedron Rd). I was never sure why Archdale wasn't put through to Samford Rd already. I also believe there was a discussion of connecting the back end of Ferny Grove through to Samford Rd there as well - local's getting a bit NIMBY as concerned about cars driving through their 'quiet' streets, even though it'd only be connecting to Lanita ROAD, McGinn ROAD and through to Ancaster ROAD in Upper Kedron. Really it'd just balance flows instead of directing it all via Archdale.

With Mitchelton, I think you'd annoy many if you proposed closing 2 out of the 3 crossings outright. At the very least you'd want to allow pedestrians through to avoid cutting a community in half. I think Osbourne you'd bridge over, the other two you'd sink the roads under the rail. Not sure cost/benefit wise sinking the rail would stack up compared to that, though I guess to be a fair cost comparison you'd look at making Mitchelton station DDA compliant as it currently stands (i.e. carriage level platforms and CPTED lifts that aren't for the locals to shoot up in).

Prospect Rd Mitchelton should just be closed, connect it through to Bellevue Ave and be done with it.

Issue with re-doing the Kedron Ave/Samford Rd intersection is on the southern side the retaining wall below the church already has had multiple slips and is repaired with gabions. To rebuild that would be expensive and I'm pretty sure if you wanted extra space for turning lanes then not sure you could do that without losing church/school buildings up top. On the northern side of the intersection, is where they built the new ambulance station - not impossible to move but not just resuming a house.

Whatever happens though, you'd want to work out what you're doing with LX in Mitchelton very soon. There's a shedload of apartment blocks going up in the area already with many more in planning. Would have though with all the development going on you'd be able to justify sprucing up the station anyway.

[Old Northern Road]

Don't forget about the Alma Rd underpass at Dakabin. That needs to be replaced

[ozbob]

Are there any active grade-separation projects presently underway in SEQ?

#askingforafriend   

[tazzer9]

The newmarket upgrade is got rid of the pedestrian LX.  That sort of counts.

[SurfRail]

Not that I'm aware of.

There are technically 3 new LXs being added:

- Bethania station (locked off access across the lines south of the station for emergency purposes only if the existing LX is fouled)
- At-grade crossings of Olsen Ave / Parklands Drive and Napper Road for GCLR Stage 2

none of which is really in the same league.

Being a purely selfish GC / Beenleigh corridor commuter, I would want to see the following.  This would mean zero LXs between Brisbane and the Gold Coast.

- Holmview (Spanns Rd) - lock off behind chainlink gate and retain the crossing surface
- Holmview (Holmview Rd) - same treatment.  Normal access to the properties which currently need this crossing would be by an extension of Chapman Drive which currently ends at Holmview Station on the eastern side.
- Bethania (Station Road) - same treatment but replace with road overpass in the vicinity of the Beaudesert fork.
- Trinder Park (Railway Pde/Station Rd) same treatment.  There is a grade separated crossing 1km south, and pedestrian access at Woodridge Station is even closer.
- Kuraby (Beenleigh Rd) - grade separate.
- Fruitgrove (Warrigal Rd) - grade separate.  Do some resumptions and make it line up with Persse Rd.
- Runcorn (Bonemill Rd) - outright close.
- Runcorn (Nathan Rd) - grade-separate.  Out of this and Bonemill, this would need to stay open for the commuter parking unless it can be relocated.
- Sunnybank (Stones Rd) - outright close.  Replace with a grade-separated connection over the line at or around Banoon.
- Coopers Plains (Boundary Rd) - grade separate.
- Coopers Plains (Musgrave Rd - on the line to Acacia Ridge) - probably just outright close.  This would lead to the interesting scenario of Musgrave Rd being in 3 disconnected chunks.
- Salisbury (Beaudesert Rd) - same as Holmview.  This can be done today seeing there is an overpass on top of it already.

[ozbob]

The newmarket upgrade is got rid of the pedestrian LX.  That sort of counts.

Thanks.  Must get out there to have a look.

[#Metro]

I'm not sure what an average LX removal costs, but if we do 12 LX removals on the GC line and they are $50 million each, we are looking at $600 million.

With money like that, it might be alternatively put into the construction of a dedicated hi-speed GC line between Beenleigh and CRR broadly following the M1.

There is an LX at Stanley Street East in Coorparoo that could be removed rather easily by closing the road on either side of the crossing.

[tazzer9]

The only road-rail separation on the beenleigh line should be the coopers plain crossing.   But I do believe there also should be a grade separation of the dual gauge and the tennyson line.

With the ridiculous costs of grade separation projects, it would just be better to bypass the beenleigh line to the old coast via a new route. 

Only grade separation projects should be on the caboolture line (including the one just north of caboolture), south pine, osbourne and samford rd on ferny grove line.  And everything between ipswich and rosewood.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Strathpine has been planned for. As has Carseldine. No dates however as its based on other redevelopment such as TOD conversions/upgrades. Carseldine might be fast tracked but I suspect the BCC will work to rat run everyone along Roghan Road and Telegraph Road.

[#Metro]

There is opportunity here for a TOD / separation 'authority'. Could be charged with LX removal funded by TOD and another source. Areas around stations (800m) could be declared as state development areas to allow higher density zoning.

The zoning directly affects a land parcel's value. The more permissive the zoning, all other things equal, the higher the value the land is.

[BrizCommuter]

The only road-rail separation on the beenleigh line should be the coopers plain crossing.   But I do believe there also should be a grade separation of the dual gauge and the tennyson line.

With the ridiculous costs of grade separation projects, it would just be better to bypass the beenleigh line to the old coast via a new route. 

Only grade separation projects should be on the caboolture line (including the one just north of caboolture), south pine, osbourne and samford rd on ferny grove line.  And everything between ipswich and rosewood.

Post-CRR (if it ever happens) there will be at least 12tph between Beenleigh and the City, 16tph between Coopers Plains and the City in the peak direction. Thus quite a few level crossings will probably need to be grade-separated.

[Derwan]

The only road-rail separation on the beenleigh line should be the coopers plain crossing. 

My opinion is that every LX crossing on the suburban network should be grade-separated.  It's just a question of which has a higher priority.

[verbatim9]

Coorparoo for sure needs to be done!

[SurfRail]

I'm not sure what an average LX removal costs, but if we do 12 LX removals on the GC line and they are $50 million each, we are looking at $600 million.

With money like that, it might be alternatively put into the construction of a dedicated hi-speed GC line between Beenleigh and CRR broadly following the M1.

$600m would probably pay for 5% of an alternative route at best, and in any event most of the 11 level crossings en route do not need to be grade separated.  The 3 essentials are Kuraby, Fruitgrove and Coopers Plains, and a number of the others could easily be closed tomorrow by fencing off and with no replacement, with little to no ill effect on anything.

[ozbob]

The key grade separations will have to be done.  The longer they are left the worse it becomes and greater the cost to rectify.

Surely the banana-state authorities and Government can see what is happening in Melbourne, or are they so fixated on the next grand 40 year transport plan that reality escapes them?

[aldonius]

Or just sink and realign the railway so it sits in that parkland just to the north. Expand the main Brookside complex right down to McDonalds opposite it.

Actually, that's the drainage channel, so maybe don't do that.

[tazzer9]

The only road-rail separation on the beenleigh line should be the coopers plain crossing. 

My opinion is that every LX crossing on the suburban network should be grade-separated.  It's just a question of which has a higher priority.

Why, is it for safety?  For ease of car users?  Less maintenance.   Considering a grade separation means a minimum a 2 lane bridge being built, grade separating every LX would bankrupt the state.

110 LX * 50 million each = 5.5 billion.  Do you want a few level crossings or do you want a CRR that bypasses a chunk of them

[#Metro]

110 LX * 50 million each = 5.5 billion.

Projects like this are happening in Victoria and NSW because they are not afraid to sell assets or borrow debt financing.

Not in Queensland. Here, we make video animations!

[aldonius]

or do you want a CRR that bypasses a chunk of them

At the risk of being overly pedantic, there are no (public) LXs between Yeerongpilly and Mayne...

[James]

Am I the one who doesn't believe we need to grade separate all LXs? There's two big reasons for separating LXs: traffic flow, and disruption to rail operations due to said traffic behaving badly - crashing into boom gates being one example. For your lower-use LXs, I see no reason why they need to be grade separated. Either close the poorly used ones, or for the more essential (but lower used) connections, just keep them as is. A few which come to mind include the one at Sherwood and Beenleigh Rd at Kuraby.

Sherwood - there are too many low bridges in that area to allow vehicles above the height of a BT bus to go from the west side of the rail line there to the east side without going via Jindalee (!) or doing a rat run down to Cliveden Avenue. You'd probably cause more traffic headaches than you'd solve.
Kuraby - Maybe this is because of when I travel, but I've never seen this road too heavily congested when I've travelled by train through here. Bigger fish to fry?

The reason why grade separation is going full steam ahead in Melbourne is because the boom gates are down for >40mins in 60mins in peak hour or something ridiculous like that. Ironically, the only LX where we probably get anywhere near that is the Sherwood Rd LX. I agree that there is work to be done, but I'd rather see the major separations go ahead + SCL duplication vs. total grade separation. The Boundary Rd LX at Coopers Plains in particular has been trotted out by the ALP at both local and state level as an 'election promise' - perhaps it is time to politely 'remind' them of their commitment? That and get a move on with the Fruitgrove LX.

[SurfRail]

110 LX * 50 million each = 5.5 billion.  Do you want a few level crossings or do you want a CRR that bypasses a chunk of them

As I've made pretty clear, we don't actually need to replace all open LXs.  Many could just as easily be closed - for the Beenleigh line we would be talking around half.  Several are needed for safety and reliability reasons around the system and these should be prioritised.

[HappyTrainGuy]

Am I the one who doesn't believe we need to grade separate all LXs?

Nope.

[tazzer9]

My personal belief is the only reason that a LX should be removed is if it has one of the following:
1. Too many vehicles using the crossing (cavendish rd etc)
2. Too many trains are run along that track (anything south of caboolture etc)
3. Road or rail track speed is high.  (over 60 for cars and over 90 for trains)
4. Too little cars or pedestrians use it, or plenty of easy alternatives, which mean they can just close the crossing.
5. History of being unsafe.

Removing LX's for the sake of removing them is pretty pointless.  Much better things to spend the cash on.

[ozbob]

Good points.  The only one on the Ippy that does warrant attention is Wacol.

It is not that difficult to do.  It is just a matter of extending the Progress Road highway overpass over the rail lines essentially.  Has a sad history this crossing and local traffic is considerable now. The layout of roads and tracks is very confusing for those not familiar with the location.

One of the original Ipswich Highway upgrade vids actually did show this upgraded to road over rail (extension of present road over road bridge).

[HappyTrainGuy]

That pretty much means every level crossing then. Some crossings would cost a fortune for something that would have very little impact. Take the Sunshine station level crossing. To close that you'd have to resume a lot of industrial businesses and its only busy there in the arvo because people use it as a rat run and all the workers knocking off the same time that school runs are done. You can't close the crossing as its in an industrial zoned area ie trucks/heavy vehicles can't run along Ellison Road etc. QR have done a good job south of Petrie anyway with all train movements crossing each other at level crossings at the same time which includes empty train movements. Go to Sunshine in the arvo and you'll see a Petrie service at the platform, a empty movement heading to the city and the Caboolture/Nambour express overtaking all within the same 10-15 second time period. Sometimes all 3 trains would be on the level crossing at the same time.

[ozbob]

There is no way all LX will be done. 

But there needs to be a priority developed to fix the key congestion choke points and those with particular safety issues.

There may well be a priority list lurking in the back rooms of TMR and QR?  Who knows.

Point is, nothing much seems to be happening.  It needs to be pushed along a bit.

[ozbob]

Well  well ...

Our Council of Mayors (SEQ) has this priority list:

http://seqmayors.qld.gov.au/priority/open-level-crossing-elimination-program/

Open Level Crossing Elimination Program

Railway open level crossings are emerging as major congestion and safety concerns in the Brisbane urban area. These issues are compounded by the desire to increase rail public transport and freight services, which in turn increase the frequency and closure times at key at-grade rail crossings in the city. The recently completed joint State and Local government projects to provide grade separated rail crossings in Telegraph Road, Bracken Ridge and Robinson Road, Geebung have significantly improved travel movements in the Brisbane northern suburbs.

Concept investigations undertaken by Council and the Department of Transport and Main Roads have identified a number of priority at-grade rail crossings for grade separation. The five top sites are:

    Boundary Road, Coopers Plains ($220 Million)
    Cavendish Road, Coorparoo ($320 Million)
    Beams Road, Carseldine ($140 Million)
    South Pine Road, Alderley ($250 Million)
    Wacol Station Road, Wacol ($200 Million)

15% to be funded by Brisbane City Council

Righto,  lets get cracking ...

[tazzer9]

How on earth are they costed to be that much.  The 2nd gateway bridge cost 350 million in 2010 dollars. 

[Gazza]

Wacol at 200 mil seems insane for what should be a simple job.

[ozbob]

How on earth are they costed to be that much.  The 2nd gateway bridge cost 350 million in 2010 dollars.

Maybe it is costed for 2051 $$$  or something ..   

The rate things happen in banana-land that is possibly optimistic!

Wacol could be done for a lot less I reckon than $200 M  ...

[ozbob]

Ha Gazza!  Touché

[ozbob]

Putting the costings aside, the actual crossings listed by Council of Mayors seem all reasonable to prioritise though.

[ozbob]

For interest I bumped an old thread on Wacol LX --> http://railbotforum.org/mbs/index.php?topic=1733.0

[mufreight]

Wacol is not as simple as it seems, because of the Progress Road highway overpass which has to be realigned and duplicated to meet with Wacol Station Road and the on and off ramps from Progress Road and Wacol Station Road and the Motorway inbound lanes.
All the planing for this project was done some years back after the multiple fatal there at the crossing but it seems that TMR was not prepared to spend the money out of its budget for the highway overpass portion of the project as at that stage Queensland rail would be funding the actual rail overpass portion to eliminate the level crossing.
Another reason for TMR to be divorced from any involvement in rail infrastructure projects.

[Derwan]

Why, is it for safety?  For ease of car users?  Less maintenance.   Considering a grade separation means a minimum a 2 lane bridge being built, grade separating every LX would bankrupt the state.

110 LX * 50 million each = 5.5 billion.  Do you want a few level crossings or do you want a CRR that bypasses a chunk of them

Safety, traffic flow and reducing delays caused by vehicles hitting boom gates.  There is a reason why there are no LX on new lines.  It's the ideal approach.  Unfortunately we're stuck with old lines.

I don't believe for a minute that you can just grade-separate every existing crossing straight away.  But at the same time we can't just sit on our hands and let the incidents and delays grow.  That's why I suggest prioritising.  The cost would be split over a number of years.

If there are 110 LX then obviously it's not practical to grade-separate every one!  (I honestly didn't realise there were that many.)  But if you get the higher-priority ones done, it'd go a long way to reduce incidents and delays.

[Golliwog]

How on earth are they costed to be that much.  The 2nd gateway bridge cost 350 million in 2010 dollars.

The prices do seem pretty high, but they do also say they're only from concept - i.e. no real design done yet. Costings would be assuming resumptions etc (Beams Rd is a lot cheaper because its right next to the QLD gov campus where you would temporarily re-align the road, the others like Alderley are already built up so harder to do.

Is your Gateway price for the bridge alone? Because I'd assume there would be some economies of scale given how much other work went on with the whole GUP project. Allows you to get the rates right down compared to a single bridge over a live railway.

[SurfRail]

Why, is it for safety?  For ease of car users?  Less maintenance.   Considering a grade separation means a minimum a 2 lane bridge being built, grade separating every LX would bankrupt the state.

110 LX * 50 million each = 5.5 billion.  Do you want a few level crossings or do you want a CRR that bypasses a chunk of them

Safety, traffic flow and reducing delays caused by vehicles hitting boom gates.  There is a reason why there are no LX on new lines.  It's the ideal approach.  Unfortunately we're stuck with old lines.

I don't believe for a minute that you can just grade-separate every existing crossing straight away.  But at the same time we can't just sit on our hands and let the incidents and delays grow.  That's why I suggest prioritising.  The cost would be split over a number of years.

If there are 110 LX then obviously it's not practical to grade-separate every one!  (I honestly didn't realise there were that many.)  But if you get the higher-priority ones done, it'd go a long way to reduce incidents and delays.

There aren't 110 LXs inside the bounds of the metropolitan passenger system - it's closer to half that.