Level crossings and Grade separation - level crossing removal

[HappyTrainGuy]

Yeah let's spend a lot to sky rail it and lock into a shitty alignment. Please. There are some sh%t ideas out there and this is right up there with the elevated Geebung maglev.

I'll call out the bs here. Let's be realistic. Cost is the major issue here. So to is future corridor constraints. You are essentially looking at an elevated quad. A quad is not a narrow corridor width. Melbourne has no plan for corridor expansion. The NCL does. This also impacts on the stations at Carseldine and Zillmere. How does this also impact the proposed same bus/train platform transfer at Carseldine for the busway. You need property resumptions at Zillmere. Or do you keep the same wheel squeezing alignment. It's government owned land but at the same time you are just passing the buck by the forcing the government to spend a substantial amount of money elsewhere. Freighters are an issue as they will power up. Not from an operating aspect but from a local resident aspect. Being elevated noise travels further. Noise barriers do very little for diesel locomotives. Already at night you can hear them from over 1km away. Now we come into the construction phase. You can't shut down the ncl easily which goes back to my property resumption vs existing alignment. This further increases your costs. Flooding isn't a valid reason. Being a railway line it's elevated quite a lot from the creeks and surrounding land.

I understand what you're trying to push but put on your reality hat.

[Jonno]

Couple of points

1. I was asked what my thinking was and was engaging in polite discussion. More fool me!

2. Never proposed anything around Sherwood so check your mud slinging aim please.

3.  Maybe it's not doable but jeez  it leaves a sh%t  urban environment behind!! No wonder people don't walk or cycle anywhere!!



 

[HappyTrainGuy]

My apologies. It was verbatim9 who was talking about sinking lines and elevating them at Sherwood. Hard to keep track sometimes of all the foam that gets thrown around when it all sounds the same.

It's a sh%t urban environment anyway for such a costly upgrade. There's very little business there to make it a place of interest to warrant the infrastructure cost and it's mostly single dwelling/town houses. There's a couple tall buildings near by but still. Nothing to jump up and down about. Better off just digging a few underpass tunnels for peds if it's a major issue. Flooding also isn't a problem as the carpark has only flooded twice since 2005. All the trip generators are up the road in Bracken ridge or Taigum.

But cost is always the biggest hurdle regardless of political will especially when that same cost could vastly improve infrastructure on other lines such as removing single track on Cleveland and Shorncliffe lines.

[Jonno]

My apologies. It was verbatim9 who was talking about sinking lines and elevating them at Sherwood. Hard to keep track sometimes of all the foam that gets thrown around when it all sounds the same.

It's a sh%t urban environment anyway for such a costly upgrade. There's very little business there to make it a place of interest to warrant the infrastructure cost and it's mostly single dwelling/town houses. There's a couple tall buildings near by but still. Nothing to jump up and down about. Better off just digging a few underpass tunnels for peds if it's a major issue. Flooding also isn't a problem as the carpark has only flooded twice since 2005. All the trip generators are up the road in Bracken ridge or Taigum.

But cost is always the biggest hurdle regardless of political will especially when that same cost could vastly improve infrastructure on other lines such as removing single track on Cleveland and Shorncliffe lines.

So poor town planning = poor transport infrastructure = worst practice mode share!! Looks like an ad for our Transport Minister!!

[HappyTrainGuy]

Goes both ways. sh%t town planning isn't going to mean an expensive pt infrastructure handouts. Especially when services and trip generators aren't even there.

[Gazza]

I think skyrail is good, and it's useful in locations where there are several crossings in a row (Wynnum is a good candidate)

But im not gonna die on a hill that demands it be built every time.

In the case of Beams Rd, it's basically a 450m long road bridge.

To do a skyrail would be a structure sufficient for four tracks (even if only 3 are installed),
Length would be 280 up +225 station + 280 down so 785m.

Is the extra length of bridge worth it for a better urban design outcome in that area?

[aldonius]

Besides... can you imagine Brisbane City Council (or elements of the previous federal government) being willing to co-fund the project if it were skyrail and therefore a "rail project"?

Level crossing removals are 90% a roads upgrade.

[Jonno]

The concern I have is that the only option being considered for every single LX crossing including those that should be just shut because there is easy access nearby is an over-engineered overpass.

The engineering is so over the top. What used to be a 100- 200 overpass is now closer to 500m with all the bells and whistles for car traffic and "improved" pedestrian and cyclist infrastructure which really just means paved and indirect! 

There is no balance Just engineering domination of our suburbs!

[HappyTrainGuy]

It wouldn't be the only option considered. Cost is still your biggest problem regardless of what the project is. Melbourne got away with it because it was a smaller corridor. Didn't have freight issues. Replaced multiple level crossings. This is simply replacing a single level crossing.

As I have said it won't be a cheap deal.
- Substantial realignments from Murphy road to Telegraph Road.
- A quad elevated line (even if you only build 3 tracks during construction to keep costs down).
- Revised and rebuilt Zillmere and Carseldine stations.
- A new railway line construction effectively.
- NCL has limited shut down time per year which is why major shut downs all happen on long weekends or are rolling.
- Land acquisitions.
- Other Government services relocation as a result of the realignment.
- Closing stations/shuttle buses during closures. Dealing with NCL shutdowns.
- Corridor contamination removal if you then want to sell off land around Zillmere for housing or parks.
- Community consultations.
- Material cost.
- Design cost.
- Noise issues with an elevated line (NGR braking, wheel squeal, diesel locos).
- Complaints from locals who now have an elevated line next to them.

Someone has to pay for all of this. As many here have said we aren't against the principal idea but you can't blanket approach the same method everywhere  when there's a level crossing project because Melbourne managed to do something similar while very, very vastly different when comparing them.

[Gazza]

Skyrail lines are generally passenger only, not freight mainlines (though there are a small number of freight trains to Gippsland) so avoids the issues HTG mentions.

The current focus of LXs in Brisbane is Boundary Road and Beams Rd.

In the case of Beams Road, most of the adjacent properties have their Backs to beams road, so I feel as though creating a public space under skyrail would amount to little unless you compulsory acquired the subdivisions and rebuilt them to face beams road and not the station.
https://www.google.com/maps/@-27.3487786,153.0305513,3a,75y,318.48h,87.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sItOJyT3WRhgXKDST4uv25Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Ditto at Coopers Plains. Half the catchment is industrial.
Presumably the industrial developed because of its proximity to Acacia ridge freight terminal, and as time goes on when inland rail gets up and running, that will cement the location of those jobs and industries.
So I feel as though it's wasting money trying to force a "vibrant station precinct" at that site.
The station was upgraded a few years ago as part of the quad, and im not sure how popular it will be as a suburb to densify, because who wants to live next to an industrial area anyway?

So a cheaper road overpass is probably a better use of transport budgets.


In terms of locations where Skyrail would be worth it:

-Stations in Wynnum, due to their proximity
-Banyo, because how how tight the village center is around the station, though this would mean changing the access to the stabling
-Coorparoo, because of how close the crossings are, and  probably more potential for redevelopment.
-Possibly the run of crossings Runcorn to Fruitgrove?

[aldonius]

I think the #1 best potential for skyrail is Coorparoo, though it is somewhat ironic given skyrail is usually not a freight thing. The flow-on benefit is that by staying higher going into Norman Park, the Crown St bridge can be raised to a full 5.5m and curve easing is made practical to the north of the station.

[SurfRail]

I think in and around Mitchelton too given it would wipe out maybe as many as 4 LXs in one go.  All the open air parking around it needs to be moved as well, it always seems to be well below capacity whenever I pass through.  (Grovely I suspect would need to be road over given the terrain.)

[SurfRail]

I think in and around Mitchelton too given it would wipe out maybe as many as 4 LXs in one go.  All the open air parking around it needs to be moved as well, it always seems to be well below capacity whenever I pass through.

Grovely I suspect would need to be road over given the terrain.

At Ferny Grove, you could close Arbor Street (circulation will be possible on the other side of the station when the TOD is finished) and put Samford Road over the railway.

The big one is South Pine Road.

[aldonius]

South Pine Road at Alderley is difficult primarily for the surroundings and if an NWTC connection needs to be factored in. 

A road-over bridge is probably not an option as there's really not sufficient space on the southern side of the tracks for a road-over bridge. There's also dense urban fabric around the road there.

Skyrail would be quite straightforward from the Enoggera side. The track there is pretty flat at present and over 500m distance between Enoggera station and South Pine Rd at a 2% grade equals 10 metres clearance.

However, the Alderley Avenue bridge would have to go. Potentially Hall St - Railway Pl can be connected instead, passing underneath the station. The Frederick St bridge location would also likely be impacted.

[OzGamer]

Level crossing removals are 90% a roads upgrade.

100%! We need to get away from this Stockholm Syndrome where we accept LX removals as public transport infrastructure when in reality it does nothing for public transport and is all about making roads more open for cars.

The best way to remove most level crossings is to just close the road.

[ozbob]

Benefits to non-motorists from level crossing removals

https://danielbowen.com/2015/12/15/grade-separation-benefits/

[ozbob]

There are many obvious benefits with respect to the removal of level crossings. 

Our position is to support the removal of level crossings, and has been for years.

I will certainly be supporting their continued removal.  I just hope DTMR et al can get a bit more imaginative.  The benefits in Melbourne have been very significant for the whole community, not just motorists.

THE BENEFITS OF LEVEL CROSSING REMOVALS:
Lessons from Melbourne's historical experience

https://msd.unimelb.edu.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/2733112/LXRA-Report_low_resolution.pdf

[Gazza]

The LXs that need to go most urgently would also impact on having reliable major bus routes and feeders to these stations.

[timh]

The LXs that need to go most urgently would also impact on having reliable major bus routes and feeders to these stations.

This. Warrigal/Beenleigh road intersection is my biggest pet peeve with this. Removing the level crossing would severely improve OTR and reliability for 15x routes

[aldonius]

Taking a look: OK, there's no going over Bulimba Creek but under Nathan Rd. Having gone over Nathan Rd there's no going under Bonemill Rd; there's only just enough space to get down to ground level. Who knows, maybe Bonemill Rd is OK to leave as an LX.

Having gone over Bonemill Rd, I think there's enough distance to go under Warrigal Rd . Certainly going over Warrigal Rd is very tricky given the Gateway Mwy extension 500m to the east. But it might also be necessary to realign Beenleigh Rd to the south a bit, especially given the need for a fourth track.

But also: having gotten into a trench to go under Warrigal, why not keep going with that, go under the creek, and do the Pinelands tunnel for both local and express services?

[nathandavid88]

^^ Where do you plan to surface again?

[aldonius]

Probably start surfacing at about Banoon for a local+express tunnel, because Banoon station is on-alignment enough that it could be retained.

[ozbob]

📣BEAMS ROAD LEVEL CROSSING REMOVAL UPDATE📣 Construction works to upgrade the existing park 'n' ride facility at...

Posted by Bart Mellish MP on Thursday, 18 May 2023

[RowBro]

Train crashes into Ute causing Caboolture and Nambour trains to terminate short at Morayfield.

https://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/two-trapped-after-crash-at-bracken-ridge-in-brisbanes-north/news-story/f311b38dbff4495ddfc6140b12998849

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/SteveMinnikinMP/status/1665921010493964290

[kram0]

13 minutes.....as much as I hate this current labor mob, even I will call BS on 13 minutes unless someone can confirm otherwise.

[Jonno]

LNP bringing a road overpass through the middle of your suburb!!! Step 2 arguing they can do the wrong thing better!!

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> 'In limbo': Major Brisbane road project delayed by Commonwealth audit

A $210 million congestion-busting road project on Brisbane's northside – where half the funds come from the Queensland Labor government – has been delayed by the federal Labor government.

The work to widen Beams Road beside Carseldine train station and removing a level crossing previously had the support of all levels of government. ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/bne_lordmayor/status/1669815463944286208

[ozbob]

Brisbanetimes --> Poor track record: Victoria removes 70 rail crossings in nine years. Qld zero

The Palaszczuk government has not removed a single rail crossing in nine years.

Over the same period, the Andrews government in Victoria has already removed 70 rail crossings as part of a suburb-shaping, but expensive, $6.6 billion program.

Rail crossings are a major source of traffic congestion, road injuries and fatalities. They are also a significant drag on the economy, the Department of Transport and Main Roads acknowledges here.

Transport Minister Mark Bailey says seven rail crossings will soon be removed, but he could not say when. ...

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1673014456790700033

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/ozbob13/status/1673067363565191173

[ozbob]

^ interview went ahead.  Hopefully I can obtain a copy later today.

[ozbob]

Interview ABC Brisbane Radio 26th June 2023

Breakfast Hosts Craig Zonca and Loretta Ryan,

and Robert Dow RAIL Back On Track discuss  the lack of Level Crossing Removals in SEQ

Interview --> https://backontrack.org/docs/abcbris/abc_rd_26jun23.mp3 MP3 5.8MB

[ozbob]

https://twitter.com/railbotforum/status/1673119212792074241

[ozbob]

Been invited to do an interview on the lack of level crossing removals in SEQ on 4BC Afternoons today, the 26th June 2023 at 1:10pm.

[ozbob]

Facebook ...

Level crossing removal stagnation in SEQ 26th June 2023 A hot topic today the slow progress with level crossing...

Posted by RAIL - Back On Track on Sunday, 25 June 2023

[ozbob]

Been invited to do an interview on the lack of level crossing removals in SEQ on 4BC Afternoons today, the 26th June 2023 at 1:10pm.

Completed the interview on 4BC with Greg Carey, and another with 7 News.

[Jonno]

https://twitter.com/7newsbrisbane/status/1673264029501108224?

[Jonno]

https://t.co/ME5P0GZo3y

Elevated railway is part of the level crossing removal solution.
https://railbotforum.org/yourls/2d (FB)
21st October 2022